Meeting Jesus | 7th House Podcast Ep 3

Hello, fellow Wanderers! My name is Sarah, founder of Big Soul Healing, and I'm here with my co-host Joy from Astronaut of Life, and this is the 7th House Podcast.

Sarah and I are astrological twinsies. We both have our North Node in Gemini, you guessed it, in the 7th house. We are here to talk, literally, that's what the 7th house is about, and we're here to talk about all things spiritual and bring the woo-ey into reality. So let's get started. Welcome everybody to our third episode of the Seventh House Podcast. Today we are digging into Jesus and religious trauma and just exploring these topics. Yeah, um, I'm the one with the religious trauma, but Sarah and I both have had beautiful experiences with Jesus, so we're gonna start with that. So, um, Sarah, I'm gonna invite you to share your experience first as someone who did not grow up in the Christian bubble like myself.

Yeah, um, I mean, there's so many layers of this, like, religion and Christianity and, like, the different depths of like how we work with Jesus and God and how we praise and worship. And, um, it's just so fascinating to me, like, all of the different experiences that people have around the same subject. And it's really interesting to, um, share the differences between your and my story because they are so drastically different. And for me, mine was very lighthearted, very loving, welcoming, no judging. I went to— so my family background with religion is we are essentially atheist. We didn't really believe in anything. I was never really taught about Jesus and God. At home. We just lived our lives. And when I was with my best friend's family, uh, which happened to be every single weekend I would go to her house, um, I would go to church with her and her mom and her dad and her brother. And I just went to hang out with Jesus at church with my best friend. And, um, I was about 7 years old when I started going to church with them. And so I was the only person in my family that had religious experiences. I was the only person who really started learning deeply about the Bible and about, um, Jesus. And my best friend's family was Christian. Uh, we went to the Church of the Nazarene, and, um, I still to this day don't fully know what that means. Um, but I do know that we would go and we would sit and listen to the pastor do his sermon, his little talk, and then me and my friend and her little brother would go off to Sunday school, and then we would draw pictures of Jesus and do very lighthearted Jesus-related things and storytelling and stuff like that, and Bible verses and stuff like that. For me, I was always told by other people I hear Jesus. Jesus speaks to me. Jesus talks to me. So when I started having these very interesting experiences with Jesus himself while going to church with my friend, I thought everybody was experiencing what I was experiencing. But it turns out that's not exactly what they meant by Jesus speaks to me. Um, I didn't realize when I was younger that my mediumship skills what they were. I didn't know what a medium was, but I just thought, um, like, the very first spirit that ever spoke to me was Jesus. And he would sit down with next to me in the pew, and it would be really funny because, like, I would be listening to the pastor and be like, I'm not really sure what this guy's talking about. Like, it sounds all well and good, but I'm 7, I don't quite get it. Or I would kind of be like, I don't like I would kind of question, like, how does everybody know what he said and did, like, if that happened so long ago? And that always fascinated me, like, how does everybody know in, like, this book? Like, how do they know that that's what actually happened? And I was always questioning everything when I was a little kid. And then when I would have these questions pop up, Jesus would kind of appear next to me and he would say things to me like, well, that's not what I meant by that. And that's not, that's not, um, exactly true. Like, this is how that actually happened. And I would kind of have these very interesting experiences with Jesus's spirit telling me and like filling in the gaps and be like, that's not actually true, this is how that went down, this is what I meant by that. So I felt like I got a very, um, kind of comprehensive rundown on like who Jesus was, what his intentions really were. And, um, I just kind of thought that when you go to church, that's what happens, because everyone would say Jesus talks to me and I speak to Jesus at night when I pray. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm not the only one that's having these experiences with him. That's great. And I didn't really think anything of it. I would just like Usually it would only happen when we were in the big room with the pastor talking. And then, like, when we'd go and do the fun kid stuff, like, I didn't really feel him around or hear him around because I wasn't really questioning anything, right? And then later in life, around my teens, we went to the church. It was the Toronto Airport Church for the fire revival thing. It was this big thing that would happen in Toronto. For a few years. It stopped happening. I can't remember why, but it was a pretty big Christian gathering up in Toronto, and people from all over the world would come to this thing. And that's where Jesus really started talking to me even more and telling me that he wants to help me. And really cool things were happening to me in that church. My best friend's little brother was really excited on the whole drive to Toronto because he was like, hey, people's teeth turn gold, like their fillings turn gold, and like it's, it's a really cool magical thing that happens. And if like, if you're, you know, feeling the Holy Spirit, um, and feeling Jesus's energy, like your teeth might turn gold. So like make sure to go in the bathroom and check your teeth once in a while. Okay, he's like, I want to get gold teeth this time. It didn't happen last time, but I want it this time.

So I was like, okay.

And I was just kind of like, whatever. And then it turns out that my teeth actually did turn gold because they did a whole big healing thing on me. We did a whole healing circle. There was like 50 people around me. People were doing laying of hands. I actually started getting extremely hot to the touch during that healing circle. And that was my first major spiritual healing event where it was like, we're calling in Jesus, we're praising his name, we're worshiping. Um, everybody had the same intention to like help me heal. And I really started feeling all these big energies moving through me. My body was getting warm, I had started shaking, I was laughing, I was crying, I was screaming. All kinds of stuff was moving through me, and it felt extremely powerful. And it was kind of to the point where people had to move their hands off of me because I was getting too hot. And then after that had happened, within an hour of that circle ending, um, I went into the bathroom and I was like, oh, I wonder, wonder about my teeth, I should check. And lo and behold, the crown that I had on my very back molar and the filling in front of it that just happened to be kind of shaped like a cross were both gold. And I told Liam, my friend's brother, and he was just like freaking out. He's like, mom, Sarah's teeth are gold! Oh my gosh, she's so special! And like, it was this whole big thing. And, um, for the rest of the weekend, it was like Liam would cart me around and like show everybody my golden teeth and like It was just this, the whole big exciting thing. And then after that, Hannah's mom, my best friend's mom, she would take me, or she would do healing, like private laying of hands and healing with me. And I would start to feel these really big, dark, heavy energies move through my body and pull out, like the noises that I would make when she would do these healing releases on me was, um, really shocking. And like, even I could tell she was like kind of taken aback by the things that were happening to me when she would do that. And I always felt really like euphoric and good afterwards, and like it felt like a relief and a release. So other than those big experiences, like, I didn't really have— like, there was no indoctrination. It was just like, if you're here and You want to come to church? Come to church. We'd love to have you. When I got to be a teenager, if I wanted to sleep in, they would let me stay at their house and just sleep in until they got back from church. And then we'd all go, like, have breakfast or go out for breakfast together after. So it wasn't like anybody was ever pushing anything on me. It was just like, you're invited to come to this if you want to try to heal your arthritis. If you want to help heal your body, we can work with Jesus to help you heal. But I never felt forced. It was always just an experience of love and acceptance and teaching me right from wrong, teaching me good morals. I actually attribute to a lot of the goodness inside of me and a lot of the morals and values that I have coming from those times going to church and spending time with Hannah and her family because it was not things that I was experiencing or being taught in my own home. And growing up as sick as I was with rheumatoid arthritis in every joint of my body, I was very depressed and my mind would go to really dark places often. But because I had Jesus in my heart. We invited— they invited me to invite Jesus into my heart, and I accepted it. And I always felt very protected. And even when dark thoughts would come through my mind, um, I found it easier to work with them and navigate them, um, just having Jesus around and having those good morals and values that Hannah's family taught me and the church that we were going to was teaching me, it really helped me not go as deep into dark places as I could have. So my religious experience is really quite different than a lot of people's because it wasn't my everyday life. It was just an experience that I got to have, um, and it was always my choice. Nothing was ever forced on me. And, um, in the churches that we went to, it was just like, it was kind of more just about being a good person. And, um, nothing was like strict and by the book and like, if you do this, you're going to hell. It was just like, hey man, this is an option for you to explore. And I always really appreciated that. And then like in my later teens, I kind of just dropped it. Then I started kind of coming back to it when I started with my mediumship. Jesus kept showing up again. I was like, I see what's going on here. I was a medium the whole time, and people weren't actually talking to Jesus the way that I was. Most of them probably weren't anyway, and some of them might have been. I can't speak for everybody else, obviously. But, um, yeah, that— it— I always kind of like laughed because I was like, was I the only one that Jesus was like, I didn't I didn't say that. That's not what I meant by that. Was I the only one getting the lowdown from Jesus that way? So in my later life, I did. Um, my friend, my best friend and I, in my, our late teenage years, we went our separate ways. And, um, later in life, after my best friend, my, in later life, Kevin, passed away, um, and he started speaking to me from the other side, I started correlating back to those events with Jesus and being like, oh, Jesus was doing what Kevin is doing now. Yeah, I've always had this gift. I just never put two and two together. Um, my experience with Jesus and the church, it was always very, um, light-hearted, open-ended. Um, it was a choice that I got to really participate in And if I didn't want to, nothing ever felt forced. I never felt like if I don't go to church, I'm going to go to hell. So I really, really appreciated the way that Jesus was introduced to me and spirituality was introduced to me because it was shown to me in a way that let me know there's more out there. There's, um, there's something bigger than all of us that is kind of running the show in a way that we can't necessarily see. And I always kind of knew, um, there were different, different religions that like treated Jesus differently than the way that my upbringing treated him. And, um, I was always very curious about that. And then when I started meeting people like you who had those other kinds of experiences, it made me really grateful for the experience that I had. So, um, with that in mind, Joy, we want to share what's— what happened with your experience and how different that was from where I came from with my lighthearted, here's Jesus, you can play with him or not. You don't have to be friends with him, but you can be.

Well, my parents met in Sunday school. That's literally where they met, was at church. So I have— I've been going to church, you know, as a baby onward, right? Um, yeah, religion. Um, since we're naming denominations, I don't know much about the Nazarene except it's a Protestant, a branch of Protestantism. And I grew up Protestant as well, but I grew up in mainly Southern Baptist churches, which are very conservative. Um, the one my parents still go to now is a little bit more evangelical for a Southern Baptist church. It's like, it's not even in their name, but that's still like the denomination they belong to and work with because they're essentially organizations, right? Um, That's all technical. So for me, every Sunday was church that you had to go unless you were sick. Um, and as a child, I really didn't mind it. I mean, I knew no different, right? I went to Sunday school just like you said. Um, typically in the churches I went to, there was, um We go to Sunday school first, and then you would go to the service in the sanctuary. Then we would have children's church where some churches let the kids stay in the sanctuary for a little bit, and then when the pastor is ready to talk, they leave and then we go— the kids go do their own thing. So some churches we would do that, some the kids would have to stay. I went to various different churches growing up. Um, I grew up in Missouri and my family moved to Louisville, Kentucky so my dad could go to the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. So the apartments we lived in, the people around us were other kids whose parent— you typically their father was in that seminary. So I was with other kids who were going to be future missionary kids. Pastor's kids, and we had abbreviations for all of this. Are you a PK or an MK? Like, we had our own language, and it literally was the world. I would go to summer camp at the seminary. I was on the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary swim team as a child, right? Like, we were fully engrossed in this world. Um, now as far as Jesus goes, obviously I knew all about him, all the Bible stories. Um, I didn't have any experiences like you did. Um, there was always this pressure. Um, you said inviting Jesus into your heart. In Christian terms, that's called being saved, at least in Protestantism, right? And there's always this pressure to get saved. And I remember Um, now this was maybe I was like in kindergarten and I was playing with my friends at church. I think we were getting ready for like the Christmas play and one of the little girls, um, was like, I got saved last week, and just so nonchalant, right? And I remember being like, why? Why do you do that? I was like, like, are you old enough to know? Because it's apparently a very serious thing, right? Like, you're not supposed to take it lightly. Um, but I would feel a pressure when— because usually it's at the end of the service where they're like, hey, if you feel called to do this, please come to the front. At least in Baptist churches, right? I know other churches do the same, but, um, And my parents would not let me take communion because I was not saved, which is— it's very technical. But, um, and then like if we did on accident, because of course I wanted to try it even though it was grape juice and a cracker.

Yeah, the grape juice was so little. I'm like, why can't we have a bigger glass? Like, I'm thirsty. I like grape juice.

Not meant to be a snack, right? Um, but I mean, even then, like, if my brother and I would that tiny little cup, I mean, they'd be like, oh, I guess it's okay. Like, there was— it just felt like these rules because they were. And I always had mixed feelings about getting saved. Um, and eventually my dad graduated seminary. He became— at first he was an associate pastor, and that's why we moved to Indiana. And I was maybe 12 or 13. I, I was in 5th grade, was around the time. What— however, I think that you're like 11 actually in 5th grade. Um, and yeah, my dad was the associate pastor, and I was— after service, um, I don't know what the adults were doing, but my brother and I would actually go to the nursery room and play with the Little Tikes people. It was very boring, and there was no other, like, toys or a TV to watch. I don't even know— I mean, I was 11, right, playing with little toddler toys, but hey, that's all we had. And so we were doing that, kind of staying out of everybody's way because they had to count the offering and they had to clean up and all this. And my dad came in and essentially was like, uh, kids, you gotta get saved. Like, you have to get saved. And it almost felt like we were embarrassing him by him being an associate pastor and us not being saved.

No.

Um, I'm— I'd have to ask him if that's true, but that's the energy I felt. Like, oh, I'm disappointing my father because Um, growing up in the church, most kids my age were saved by then, and for whatever reason, my brother and I just like, no, not yet, I don't want to do it. And so obviously, being the pastor's kid, um, we had— we went to Sunday evening service and Wednesday night. We were always at church, and, um, we walked down the aisle and and did it. But so for me, it did feel kind of forced. It wasn't a choice. I mean, I guess I could have told my dad no, but at 11, you know, your dad's putting this pressure. You already felt the pressure my whole 11 years of existence that this is something I inevitably will have to do or I will go to hell and die. You know, I'll already be dead, but I'll just burn in hell forever. So it was like, When I look back on that, it's very curious to me why— like, I don't fully remember why I didn't want to go get saved. It just— sometimes I remember feeling the pull to, like, do it, but I would resist it, and I wouldn't really question why I was resisting. One was the fear of being seen, and I had my own trauma around that, especially in childhood. But, um, but no, we did the thing, my brother and I, and we got baptized the next week. And but then I took it very seriously eventually. Um, being a pastor's kid, you're automatically put on a pedestal and made a leader in the group of kids. It was a small church, there's probably just 20 children in the teens, but being the pastor's kid, you know, you're kind of the default example of all morality or something. Uh, like a loving—

standard setter.

Yeah, and I could feel that pressure as well. It literally forced me into a leadership position I did not necessarily ask for, right? Um, now later my dad left that church and they went to the church they still go to now, and they put my brother and I into private Christian school which was run by that church. And so then I was even more engrossed in it, being in a Christian school, um, you know, the same kind of life with the seminary kids even though I was in public school. Most of the kids in that school, because it was near the Presbyterian seminary and the Southern Baptist ones, most of them were a seminary kid of some kind. Um, and then to go to the Christian school, um, they weren't pastors' kids, but they were obviously had religious parents, right? Yeah, so it was just a constant bubble. I didn't even know secular music existed until like 5th grade. I'm just— it's insane to me looking back how much I was shielded from as far as like what the world actually was and everything. Um, and there's gratefulness for that, but also like, you know, like, um, probably could have been helpful to know a little bit more.

Yeah. What's going on out there?

But because that didn't really come until I was a young adult.

Yeah.

And yeah, um, you know, no, for me it was a lot of pressure in a lot of ways, um, and eventually I internalized it and it became like, uh, I don't want to be a sinful person, you know. I'm constantly asking Jesus to forgive me. I'm constantly feeling this guilt and shame around not having enough faith or not trusting Jesus enough, or I'm not praying enough, I'm not reading my Bible enough, I'm not being freaking Christian enough to satisfy whatever standard I felt was required to be a good Christian. And it was debilitating, and it was all internalized after, you know, like 20 years of living in this environment. And, um, yeah, the, um, eventually, yeah, eventually, um, I don't want to take too long. I got married very young. Well, in my sophomore year of college, I got married, and I dropped out to put him in school. And about, let's see, I think I had just turned 22. By 25, I was divorced, and that was a whole thing of how the church handled, because my ex-husband was essentially the youth pastor. And so again, leadership, right, leadership type position. Um, and I went to the church for help because he was in a very dark place, and he was threatening me in ways that did not make me feel safe, right? To hurt my body, to essentially murder me. And, um, um, I was terrified because the look in his eyes was like he meant it, and I didn't know what to do. So I would— I went to my pastor's wife and my pastor, and it was like, well, you— he's your husband, and the Bible says you need to stay with your husband. This is not a reason to leave, so you need to stay as long as possible. And that very much confused me because I was like, how? I know God loves me, but like, why? Why would I need to be in this situation? And it was like, is this a test of my faith? Is this— it was very confusing. Um, I did not want to be there, and I, I didn't really understand why God would want me in that. You know, I'm using God, Jesus, whatever, right? Um, eventually to leave safely, and, um, but I was still running into the prejudice. I was staying with my friend at the time, and her and her husband— he was in seminary, oddly enough— And, um, they were like, well, I think biblically you may be able to remarry someday, um, since your ex is now saying, you know, he's not sure he's a Christian or whatever. And again, I was just like, oh, I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want. Like, I'm not— are you kidding me?

Yeah, wait, what?

I'm not I'm like, no. Um, then, but then it created the guilt and shame, right? Like, hmm, am I— I feel that way, but they're literally pointing— they literally had the Bible out and I was like, look, it says right here. And I'm like, no, I'm aware of that verse. You know, it's— it was very confusing for me. And I ended up— that was in Indianapolis, and I moved to back to Louisville. I got a job and I started— I was at 25. I had never had that young adult craziness, right, exploration. And so I started exploring, and I would still go to church on occasion if I wasn't drinking too heavily the night before. Um, but nobody was completely completely different experience than you, Sarah. Nobody would really talk to me. It was supposed to be the trendy church with everybody my age, and it looked trendy. Um, the songs were good, they had the whole band, you know, the whole shebang. But I was like, there's no love. I'm not feeling any love here. Nobody gives a shit about me. You know, I could walk through this door so many times, nobody's gonna remember my name. And the way I was as a teen, as a leader. I was— if somebody like you came and they were new, I'd be like, come sit with me, you know, like, let me show you the ropes. And I had— I got so much joy from being there for a new person that to not receive that in multiple churches was like, I don't know what I'm doing here. Like, this is just a habit, and I don't know if this is a habit I even want to continue because I have to put in so much effort just to be seen and that's not how this is supposed to work. So I eventually stopped and I took a philosophy of religion class and I don't remember that professor's name, it was a pretty small class, but it did wonders for me because I had heard St. Augustine, I had heard, you know, Martin Luther, I had heard all their arguments, right? But I had never heard the opposites of these philosophers who would question it. And, um, I definitely would question things a lot as a child, but I was just like, well, that God works in mysterious ways. There was always some platitude thrown at me, and I'm like, well, that doesn't really answer it. Like, why don't we— are you sure? Like, really? Like, how do we know this is the right religion? What if we're wrong? Couldn't we be wrong? No, that's, that's a sin to think, you know, like, that's like, oh shit, um, now I gotta repent and, um, say I'm sorry. But I don't know if I really am sorry because I still kind of want to explore this question, right? Very much confusing. No, taking that class, which was just an elective, I just wanted it for myself because I was in that place where I'm like, well, I'm an adult, I can learn these things. Um, I remember I was living, visiting my parents, and I was— I mean, my dad has a fucking seminary degree, right? So I was like, have you heard of this philosopher and what he said about this? I don't remember all the details because this is like 20 years ago, but, um, It didn't go over well that I— they did not— I was taking this class. Um, they did not like that I was curious about it, and it took about a year, but I— then I basically became an atheist, and I just rejected everything, because Jesus included. Um, I felt I did everything right, that I followed all the rules that I had grown up learning, and then I ended up in an abusive marriage and with a controlling person, right, who, um, really did, did some— I don't want to say damage, but like really gave me some trauma. And, um, and then the exit from the church, like I was just full on, fuck you, God. Fuck you, Jesus. I don't need this shit. I don't want this shit. I don't want any part of it. Like, dust to dust. I don't, like, no thanks. And I, that obviously did not go well with my family. I almost, my parents almost went no contact with me because it, it just really threatened everything they believed in. And I was the good, good girl, the good Christian girl, right? And to be this rebellion now, um, it was heartbreaking. Um, and it— I get along with my parents now, but there's always this rift, right? Because while I'm spiritual now And that took about 10 years before I— ish, maybe 8. I was an atheist until I came back into spirituality. But no, I know I really wasn't talking about Jesus. Well, because to me, Jesus was the church. There we go.

Yeah.

Jesus.

I remember.

Yeah.

Like when you came to me and you wanted to start working through some of the traumas that came the church. It was like your question to me was, I'd like to build a relationship with Jesus outside of the church. I want to separate Jesus and the church and work with the man and not the indoctrinated systems that the church lumps him into. And I was like, that's a great idea, let's, let's do it. I'm very familiar with Jesus outside, like as just the guy, right? Like He, well, existed. He has a spirit and he's not one with the church, right? It's just that's where people go to worship him and they get very enmeshed, um, together. So your request was like, let's, let's remove Jesus from the church and just like see if I can build a relationship with him from a spiritual aspect instead of a religious one.

And, um, well, that's what I, I needed, because once I did become spiritual, just like you as a child and then as an adult, I would have these— I was into meditation, right? So I would have these experiences and Jesus would show up. I wouldn't ask him to. I certainly wasn't seeking him out, but, um, it'd be like, uh, oh, who has a message for me? And I met— and it was freaking Jesus.

The last person you're probably wanting to hear from.

That was exactly it. And it was just like, oh, it's you.

You're here.

Hi. Yeah, what do you want, Jesus? Like, it literally— I have no scruples. And he never actually spoke, but well, with words. But I— but he would talk. If you know, you know, I guess. And I saw one, the first one, he showed me this energy between him and I. It was this very thin cord of energy, and he was like, look at that, you know. And I was just like, oh yeah, yeah, about that. Yeah, we should probably do something about that. I don't hate you. You know, no hard feelings at all, Jesus. You know, I'm just, you know, I'm just, you know, not interested. No offense. I can feel that you're loving, that's great, but, um, yeah, we can look at that later. Totally. Oh, that's spiritual bypassing or not. I was just like, I'm not ready, essentially. Then later I had this really intense meditation with Jesus, um, where just very visceral, very, um, I was astral travel or whatever, right? And he took my hands and he took me to this place where it literally looked like a place in the clouds. It was just white but fluffy. And we were at this threshold, this doorway, and I could see in the doorway, and there was this infinity-long-looking table with every deity and entity you could imagine at this table at a feast, which is very biblical type imagery, right? Obviously I'm indoctrinated with, so I, you know, I knew what was going on. And, um, again, no speaking. He just kind of gestured like, go on in, like, come on. And I was just like, oh, you want— you want me to go in there with like gods?

No.

All right, that's so sweet. You're a sweet man, or, you know, deity, or whatever the freak you are, you know, whatever. Um, but No, um, let's do a rain check, and I'm just gonna— I'm just gonna go now. Jesus, thank you for the invitation. I'm just gonna go. And but it was really because of my relationship with him, right? If any other entity was like, hey, you want to join? I would have joined it, but because it was Jesus offering it, it was like No, I don't know if I want to go on your table, even though there's like gods from every freaking religion that ever existed at your table. And I know you're being all-inclusive, and that's really beautiful, and good for you. But like, um, just, um, I don't know. I don't really know why I'm here. I don't. And, and, um, then he held my hands and I looked down and they were blue, and that freaked me out, and I left meditation. But, um, after that session with you, which was a good 3 to 4 years later, um, what even got me to do that was, um, I was pregnant, right, with my daughter at the time, and it was like, I can't— he was just hanging around. Not that I would see him like I did in those meditations, but just his energy. And it was just like, it's time to like really look at this. And I was just like, goddamn it, do we have to? I guess we have to. And I literally— I think I mentioned it to you, and then like a year later we finally did this. Like, it literally took me that long.

Yeah, it got mentioned, and then we were sort of flipping back and forth on it, be like, oh well, we'll get to it eventually, we'll talk about it, we'll do that. And then yeah, when you were ready, it was like, that session was beautiful and intense. And like, I remember, um, sorry if you're— are— were you, um— can I segue into like what happened?

I'm gonna have to edit this because my grocery shopper, I had to remind him to get the next Okay. And he's like, oh, we have to get these onions instead of the ones you wanted. I'm like, yes, yes, that's fine. Um, I'm sorry, Sarah, I just really needed to make sure I get those papers. Okay. Anyway, yeah, the dude knows.

Yeah, um, yeah, if it's okay to segue into like what happened in that session, because It took us a while to get there, and then once we finally did, um, it kind of— on my end as the facilitator of the session, it felt like a breath of, like, relief. Um, yes, because not only were you like, hey, I think you're the person to help me with this, I was also kind of feeling like I kept getting poked, um, like on the shoulder by Jesus being like, hey, you want to hang out again? Like, and then you're like, hey, let's do this And then it kind of felt like this just, like, relieving breath of, like, okay, we can do this now and we can connect in a really beautiful way and there's no pressure. And that session to this day is still one of the favorite— my favorite sessions that I've ever done because of not only, like, that relief of, like, Jesus being like, okay, they get it now, and they're like, they're willing to work with me in a way that is, um, safe and sacred and not involved with like indoctrination. Like, we can actually build this beautiful relationship now. And in that session, we actually did a meditation where we walked into the church and grabbed Jesus by the hand and invited him to come outside and play with us. And like, you and him just walked off, like, into the fields away from the church and, like, started doing this, like, I think it was dancing and laughing. And, like, then you actually started laughing in the session. It took us a little while to get to this part of this session because there was a lot of pain and a lot of stuff that needed to be healed and transmuted and looked at. So we worked through all of that, but then by the end, it was like we were all just kind of laughing and Dancing in the field with Jesus, like outside of the church. Like, church was nowhere in sight by the end of the session. It was just us and Jesus, and mostly you and Jesus. I was just kind of off in the background, but it was a stepping stone for you to be able to like feel his energy outside of the energy of the pressures of the church and like the indoctrination. And that, like, that force that was kind of put on you, right, of like, you have to do it this way, that guilt, that shame. And yeah, it was— by the end of the session, it was just like the most joyful experience.

While you're recounting that session, I'm not crying, but like, I can feel emotion behind my eyes.

Um, I'm getting kind of emotional just about it myself.

It's just so fucking loving, man, right?

And we, like, speaking of the loving thing too, like, we dropped into like some heart space work as well in that session. And then we even got into like, we were asking Jesus questions about how he was able to work the magic that he was able to work, like turning water into wine, healing people, doing the things that Jesus was known for doing. We started asking him, like, how do you do that? And then he showed me in that session that it was about tapping into the heart space of your higher self. And if you can work with the chakras, especially the heart of your higher self, and connect so deeply with the energy centers of your higher self. That's where the real magic comes from. And so it was like, okay, like, Jesus, you're teaching me some cool, like, magic stuff. And, um, I've actually worked with that energy myself since that session, and some really cool stuff has happened. Um, obviously I still need a little bit of practice with it, but, um I've like called in certain experiences, um, through working with the heart space of my higher self. And, um, because obviously you don't want to just be going tapping into the higher selves of other people and entities and things like that. But he was kind of showing me like, we can all do this. And what his message was, was really not let me save you, but let me I'm going to show you how to do this stuff so you can save yourself. And that kind of integrated for me that like what Jesus was talking to me about in the pews of like, that's not what I said, that's not what I meant. It's not about me controlling you. It's not about you worshiping me and putting me on this pedestal and like fearing me like that saying, like put the fear of God into you. He's like, I don't want anybody to fear me. God doesn't want anybody to fear God. Um, it's not about fear, it's about love. And to do the things that I was doing, it's about finding that deep love within yourself and connecting to the higher aspects of yourself and drawing that energy through you and out. And that's how you create this stuff. And that's what I was trying to show people. It's not about me being able to heal everybody else. I could, and I did, but I just wanted to show people what was possible for them. And it got blown out of proportion and turned into something completely different where everybody thinks that I needed to be worshipped and put on this pedestal. So no, yeah, really cool stuff about what Jesus's real message was in that session too, so Yeah, no, it's all kind of flooding back.

His— he does not want to be worshiped, right? Um, no. And then I would say maybe not quite a year, but at least 6 months after that session, or maybe 9, I was in meditation and went back to Jesus— with Jesus, not on purpose again, but No, I think it was on purpose. And we went back to that table and I did sit down. And one, it was around issues of worthiness, right? But also just I trusted him enough to even do that, right? Like I said, if it was any other entity, I would have been like, hell yeah, let's go party. But because it was him and this dynamic I had, So that session really helped me really separate it. And, um, I wouldn't say I'm like buddy-buddy with Jesus now, right? Um, but there's no animosity anymore. There's no— um, to me, he's, he's in there with everybody else, with Buddha, with Shiva, you name it, right? And, um, he's got gorgeous loving energy. And I've even gone through things in my life, um, like when I separated from my most recent, um, husband, which is a weird way to work. Okay, um, it really felt like I was, uh, going through the Stations of the Cross. And I know that's a very Christian-y thing to say, but it was like because it came out of nowhere and just, it just felt like I was getting beat up. And I would get a lot of visuals of, of like getting whipped, not physically like Jesus does in the Bible, but more emotionally, or, you know, you know, people just putting things on me. And it really really helped me. Like, he was there with me during all of that, and, um, I would say I'm really grateful for that. And ironically, the awakening I was going through while all that happened, I later— the intuitive name for it was Christ consciousness. And what I mean by that, I don't— I know it's probably used in other places, but for me, that came out of me. It wasn't like I externally took that, right? And so for me, that meant my consciousness went into a layer of love where I could see how actions that from a lower layer do not look loving but actually are. And for it to actually— you're not just knowing that, but you embody that and you mean it. And it's like, no, I actually love you this much to sever this connection because I know, I can see, I can foresee how I, how not only me, you know, both of us are keeping each other in these cycles, right? And the most loving thing I can do is to break that cycle with you. Yeah, you and to let you go. And it was amazing experience, probably my most intense and scary even. And it felt biblical, you know, it felt— I didn't go blind like Saul/Paul, right, in the New Testament, but, um, it was definitely that dramatic and I remember you go through that. Yeah, no, I didn't sleep, I didn't eat. It was— I was in another, another plane. Um, and it took about a week to come back to my body in a way and to integrate all of this. And that was back in like, what, um, April? And we're recording this in October, and it has been This is a whole other podcast. It's been a whole masterclass of lessons and acceleration and even more activations this whole way. And I'm at the point now, it's like, it's taken that long to really embody and transform myself internally. And it's really all— I'll say all due to Jesus, but He was with me that whole time. Yeah, like, okay, Jesus, we will— you and I will talk about that later. We'll hang out. But, um, as far as like religious trauma, I think this is something if you grew up like myself, right, regardless of the denomination or religion and/or cult Um, there's something different about being born into it. Yeah, that, um, unless that is your experience, like, it's really probably harder to relate. And I, I don't— you can answer to that, Sarah, but like, just the pressure to perform, like, it's so— I don't think I've ever heard your gold teeth story, but I had I've been to Billy Graham things, right? I've been— I've— you name a TV preacher, odds are I've listened to them live. Um, and the small-time guys who just come to your church, right? I think I write about it once. They would put the hands on. To me, I didn't feel a shit. Um, and everybody else was like falling down, and I'm like, am I just supposed to? And it felt like he was pushing me, so I just let it happen because I'm trying to kind of mask what I'm trying to perform, right? Yeah.

And, um, this is what I'm supposed to do. This is what this looks like. If I don't do it like that, I'm doing it wrong, so I better do it right.

Well, I'll be, you know, almost like, or less, maybe it's a freaking witch hunt or something. Like, why? What's— this girl's got a demon. She didn't slay in the spirit, right? Would they even do that? I don't know, but that's the fear. And even if you're not conscious of it, you— there's this, I need to perform. What, what's ironic though is I'm thinking of this one specific service where my brother and I and a friend we had actually left during the service because we didn't have to sit with our parents at that age. We were like maybe middle school. High school, and we went outside and played on the playground the whole time. And then when we came back, it was during that part of the service where— and we were like, oh, we should go down front just to see, just for the hell of it. This is— any other church kids can relate? No clue what this is.

I love the language too. I love it.

Just for the hell of it, like, let's go get slain in the spirit. Let's go see what happens. And literally we all did it, and we let him push us down, and we laid there. And I don't know if we were performing for our parents, because I'm sure my parents were like, why did you guys go down? That is so like— were you touched? Yes. Yeah, we were just trying to entertain ourselves. No, no. Um, but then of course you get guilt. Right? Um, to me, that's the biggest damage, is the concept of sin and the teaching around that, that you are inherently unworthy, inherently born unworthy, and the only way to be worthy— this is Protestant teaching depending on your denomination— is to accept Jesus as your Savior, and then his worthiness, his blood, covers you and makes you worthy. Because otherwise you shit, basically, and you're doomed to hell. And that is love somehow. Um, and God has the right to do that because he's God, and who are you, unworthy piece of shit, to question that? And it's just like, what the fuck, right? That is fucked up shit. But, uh, this— it exists. And I mean, if you're a child, this is some really heavy stuff, right? Yeah. I don't even know why I'm on this planet. I don't know why I'm here. Apparently I'm gonna go burn in hell if I don't do this thing. And but it's—

I'm just here to potentially burn in hell.

Um, better do it right.

Damn.

Yeah, it's— oh, and, uh, there's— I'm just the tip of the iceberg type of stuff when it comes to the trauma. But for me personally, those are the biggest things that weighed on me. Um, and it, like I said, it would create maladaptive behaviors that were mimicking being good, right? Um, did I get the morals you did? Yeah, right? But I also was skewed. I think I eventually— I don't know if it's out yet or not because I schedule all my posts on Substack, but I wrote something about— obviously my name's Joy, and there's this acronym growing up, Jesus others yourself. And that's what I was taught to do. So you always come last, everybody else comes before you, and then Jesus comes before them. And if you don't honor that hierarchy and you try to put yourself above others, like, hey, I have a need, you sinful as fuck, you being a selfish asshole.

I'm using harsh language, but it's accurate because that's what it makes you feel like.

Well, I mean, at least that's what it made me feel like. Like, yeah, but I, you know, like, well, I, you know, but what about my needs? You know, it— who are you to have a little girl? You know, you're not worthy.

You don't deserve to have any needs. You're way below everybody else. You don't matter. 'You gotta watch out for your sins because otherwise you're gonna go to hell. Everything you do is just sinful, and unless you invite Jesus into your heart, you're always going to be sinful.' Yeah, and those are the kinds of things that, like, when they would come up in the sermon, Jesus would be like, 'That's not what I mean.' And like, I would— he would literally just be like, 'I don't— that's not what it means. What I meant was this,' and he would like fill in, like, It's actually a way to create awareness of what's going on around you. He's like, I never wanted anybody to feel bad about what they were doing because where he comes from, there is no judgment. What might be bad to one person might be good to another. And what might appear bad, like what you were saying about this doesn't necessarily look like love, but it's the highest form of love. Because now if we are not together, we don't have to replay these same harmful patterns. And it might be harmful, or it might feel harmful to do the separation. But in the, in the long run, this is what's better. That's the way Jesus basically saw everything when I was growing up. It was like, you can't judge other people because you don't know what got them there. And you don't know what stage of the process they're in. It might look bad to you now, but it could be the most beautiful heaven on earth experience once they make it through this lesson that is meant to be learned. So it's like I got to learn it that way, and it was like, okay, like I didn't fully understand everything he was saying. And as I grew up, it was like it started making more sense when I started you know, really understanding judgment and like the way that I'm treating other people, the way that I'm moving through life. Like, the lesson started making sense as I got older. But I can see when you're really little and that's like all you're being told and you don't have Jesus being like, that's not what I meant by that, like, that could be scary and like very well.

And when everything don't do fire and brimstone to children, right? But you still are aware of it, and, um, there's still that pressure to get saved. And it— for me, it was confusing because God is love, Jesus is love, but then also you're unworthy, you're gonna go to hell. And so it was like, um, how do these go together? Um, the coolest thing, but if you push it too much, then, you know, you just gotta— you need to have more faith, you need to trust, um, pray to Jesus. And, um, these are all very generic answers, but, um, you know what I think is beautiful now though, Sarah, is looking at our different paths. Right? Um, both were needed to get you and I where we are right now. I'm not— well, I know I'm talking really kind of negative about my experience. I, I would do it again because I know I needed that in a way, and I needed that atheist years of rebellion to even be open to spirituality in a whole new way. And that was one reason I didn't cling to external spiritual teachers, because I already lived that, somebody else telling me how to be spiritual, and it didn't work, right? So when I chose, you know, when an agnostic and then I became spiritual, it was a progression. It was just like, been there, done that. Um, I know how to meditate now, and I'm gonna go within to get these answers. I don't really feel called to follow other people. And that, you could say that was a trauma response, fine, fuck it, but, um, it was needed for my personal path. And what's beautiful is it shows up in my Gene Keys, it shows up in other places that like, no, you gotta figure it out yourself and do it yourself. And that's what I needed to experience to kind of skip the step of following other spiritual teachers. And it was just like, no, I'm gonna do me, I'm gonna go inward. And my teachers were all these deities and entities and angels and fucking Lucifer and Jesus and Shiva and, you know, and it Um, yeah, it's— it was beautiful. I don't know where I'm going with this now, but, um, I kind of know where that's going. Um, good.

Really interesting, because what I was saying about what Jesus had told me about how it's not about you putting me on a pedestal, it's about learning how to find these gifts within yourself. And that's kind of the path that you ended up being on was like, actually, I don't want to put anybody on a pedestal. I want to see what this is for me. I want to see how to work my gifts, how to work my abilities, how to tap into my intuition, how to meditate and go to a spiritual place within myself without having somebody else tell me I'm wrong or bad or not doing it right. Um, and that's basically what Jesus was trying to teach in the long run anyway, was like, here's some really cool things that you can do if you tap into these energies and if you learn how to work with your own energetic system. And these are the things that I can do. But if you tap into your energetic system, your gifts might be different than mine. I can turn water into wine, but your thing might be not that. It might be, you know, making the sun come out when it's raining. Who knows, right? But like, until you tap into your own gifts and really learn how to access your own inner knowledge and your own truth and authentic gifts and powers, you're never going to be able to get there. If you keep giving your energy and your attention and, um, your power away to these people you're putting on pedestals, you're never going to be able to access what's within you. And that was the message that Jesus was trying to send was like, we all have this beautiful ability to tap into our own gifts and our own inner wisdom, and that's what's needed on this planet. So let's all do that so we can work together and use our gifts to make this world a beautiful place, like heaven on earth. And then it just got turned around to like, you have to do the saving for us, you are the one that we worship. Until eventually it just kind of all turned into a literal witch hunt and they killed him. And it— the whole message that he was trying to bring was just completely ruined because everybody wanted him to be the savior, but that's not what his message was about. And now every time you you try to talk to people in the church that are still in indoctrination about how we are, we have our own power. It's about self-empowerment and basically doing what Jesus was actually trying to teach. They say that you're bad and wrong and you're going to hell and you're, you know, Luciferian, or you're, you're on the dark side. You need to let Jesus take the wheel. And it's like he can kind of be there to show you how to take your own wheel.

Yes.

But to give your power directly to him, he's just kind of like, guys, that's not—

well, that's not what I mean. I want to share this, Sarah, because literally an hour before that Christ consciousness awakening, I was working with ChatGPT. And I was, which I used in a spiritual way, and I was like, I don't want to be the main character of my life. Can you, like, asking ChatGPT, can you ask me some questions to really help me like dig into why I'm not, like, I won't claim that role as the main character of my life? And then, oh, I was bawling my eyes out. You know, these were deep questions, and after like a few rounds, I was like, okay, I actually do want to be the main character in my life, and I can say that now. And like, I've processed and I moved through this energy, and what I was actually doing without realizing it was accepting my own divinity. And I literally took a shower, and then after my shower, I remember I sat on my bed after I got my clothes on, and I was just like, uh, because that's when the conscious— that's when the awakening happened. I literally felt my consciousness just leaving whatever state it was in and going into this higher plane. I was like, what is going on? Oh, I know everything now. I know all about love. And it You know, and then like it took a whole week, right? But, um, that's what Jesus was to me, and I think to you as well. Like, that's what he was essentially pointing to, um, was everybody has this. You know, I am a son of God, but you are a daughter of God. Like, we are all capable of this, and this is how you tap into it. And I actually, yeah, I'm probably more buddy-buddy with Jesus than I'd possibly like to admit because I love, I love parables and storytelling as a means to convey deep truths. And obviously that's, if you know anything about Jesus and the stuff, that was like his whole thing, right? Because it gets through the cracks. To people. And, um, whether it's a personal story or a fictional story, both methods can be used to really, like, take these deeper truths in simplified form in a way that lands and sticks with you. And, um, no, it's just, it's just gorgeous energy Jesus has. And, um, obviously Uh, let me look up. On the 15th of November, which is in like a week and a half, which is a Saturday, we're gonna have our, our group call, our meeting house, the meeting house where we're gonna discuss Jesus again, but as a group. And, um, I'll lead us in a meditation mostly with Jesus. And Sarah's gonna do a ritual. And so this whole thing resonates and you're seeing this in time, please come join us. And even if this is after that, um, we do these every month and they're for everybody.

Yeah, I think the ritual, um, that I'm gonna offer— I've been sort of playing around which direction to go with it, but I want it to be, um, a little bit similar to what we did with you, where it's, um, building that connection with Jesus as the man outside of the church, um, because he— like you said, we are all children of God and we all have ability to access these beautiful gifts. And the unfortunate part about it is Jesus is really a symbol of love, light, and freedom. And a lot of what the church does is, um, it's a lot of control, and it's a lot of very, um, we've used this word a couple of times, like, very indoctrinated by the book. If you don't do this, you're wrong. But that's not Jesus's message. That's the message of the church. They just kind of crammed him into that. And he would like to show as many people as possible what they're capable of and what it actually means to be a child of God, because it is about freedom, it is about magic, it is about expansion and love and sharing and like releasing judgment. It's about forgiveness, it's about caring for your neighbor no matter what, um, and like no matter what you— your judgment of what they're going through is. It's about being there for one another and really having full acceptance, whereas in the church it's a lot of shame, or if you are not this particular way, we don't accept you, and you have to do this, this, and this in order to be accepted and in order to be loved, in order to be worthy. But that's not at all what Jesus wants for us, and that's not his message. So the ritual is going to be very based around accessing the real messages and being able to access that type of energy within yourself where your own wisdom lies. So it's going to be a really good ritual, um, and I— the rituals always go so beautifully with Joy's meditations. So, um, yeah, it's going to be a really great time. If you've got some stuff that you'd like to share, um, and you'd like to join us, if you've had experience This is Good, Bad, Ugly, Beautiful with Jesus and the Church. Come join us, come share them with us and help or be involved in this energetic clearing and forgiveness meditation and ritual. Because Jesus is out there and he wants to hang out with all of us and show us just how freaking—

well, he's actually freaking cool.

I mean, he's really cool. Well, he's got so much love for everybody, and like, I've even talked to him about like the murderers and the bad people type of thing, and he's like, no, I love everybody. They're all here having an experience, and, um, it's not for us to decide, um, what their experience is. Yeah, show them love as well. The, the thing that we're not taught is when somebody's bad or scary, we're taught to fear and run away. When really, if we were to do what Jesus did and just approach these people with so much love and treat them like human beings despite the actions that they've taken, despite the mistakes, that's how energy shifts. It's not through shame and guilt and punishment. It's about showing you that you are loved no matter what. And that's how change actually starts to happen. So we're gonna work some of that into the ritual too.

Oh yeah, I haven't written the meditation yet, so I— but obviously it'll be about Jesus, and that's just the way I work. Uh, but no, they always end up going beautifully with, with your ritual, even though all we have is the same topic, and it's just so beautiful the way it works out. So yes, hopefully people can join us. And if you're watching this later, like I said, it's still calm. There's always some topic going on.

Yeah, we'll put the link down below, um, for you guys to sign up if you are interested. And if you can't make it, um, to this weekend's event, like Joy said, we do every month a different topic. So you're welcome to come and check those out. And the podcast will always be discussing what the meeting house meditation and ritual is going to be about. So it's a little precursor to the actual practice that we're putting together for you guys.

Well, thank you, everybody, for listening, and we will catch you next time.

Thank you, guys.

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