Building a Category Leader | Supermarket Strategy with Ramona Hazan

I go around the factory speaking to people all the time going, you have to put love into this. Our consumers can feel it. Suddenly, my lovely little female-owned brand was synonymous with sexual assault. But what is that one thing that makes you and your business impenetrable?

The chilled category is dominated by own brands, and it's one of the hardest categories to break into. Over the last 21 years, Ramona has built her hummus brand from a side hustle to listings in the UK's leading retailers. We get into investment flexibility and why she thinks large seed rounds before you have sales can be a trap you'll never escape from. We talk about the one thing she repeats to her team so relentlessly that, in her words, they want to kill her. I'm Karen Green, and this is the Friday Accelerator.

Welcome to Friday Accelerator.

So great to be here. Thanks for having me.

It's a pleasure. For those who don't know you, what's the elevator pitch for Ramona's? And I guess, has it changed actually over the years?

No, I don't think it has changed. I mean, I always say I'm Ramona. I founded a hummus brand that over 21 years has finally, finally become the, the number one hummus brand in the UK, not through any sort of genius only through perseverance, consistency, and, you know, good quality hummus, I like to believe. But it hasn't changed, you know, that is it. I'm the founder, just every year it changes to how many years it's been going.

But I think, I think that's amazing. And I think that, you know, the, the, the number one piece is really important because, you know, I've got a lot of experience within chilled food and brands are Rare. Strong brands are rare.

Brands that get a chance are rare.

So hummus especially was always owned by own label and they had it all. And maybe there was the odd person who was a bit of a challenger as an own label, but it was all own label. So how did you come about to launch the brand that is now number one, which is exceptional?

It's so that long journey started in my kitchen in a little one-bedroom flat in a, in what sounds like a romantic, uh, story where you're in your early 20s and just stupid and you think, oh, I could do that. You know, I'll just work all day and then come home at night and put chickpeas to soak through the day around our lounge and make hummus in the morning and deliver it at 4 in the morning. And, you know, so it was hard. And certainly at the beginning, it was all wholesale. It was all to restaurants, sandwich shops. It was while I was working because, you know, I needed an income, but then it sort of grew from there and I took the business on full-time, but was still the only one making hummus and falafels and whatever other dips anyone would ask for along the way. Anyone could get anything from that business just to stay afloat. And along the way, I decided to do it, to try a retail brand. And for my sins, I chose the name Me Too. And that was because I'm the youngest of 3 children. And, you know, that was the thing. My brothers were older than me and every time they wanted to do something, oh, me too, me too. So it was like a personal thing. And then the hashtag MeToo came about. And, you know, we often talk about in business, you know, the things that you don't see coming anywhere near as a problem. And it blindsided the business because it was all the way in America. And suddenly my lovely little female-owned brand was synonymous with sexual assault. So we had to change the name. We were listed in a lot of places, not easy to change the name when you're listed because they have to delist you and then list you again. And that is just so scary.

Yeah.

And they can get it wrong, bless their little hearts. And so that was the start into retail. And when I say it was a 17-year journey of hearing no, you know, it gives new meaning to perseverance. We were fortunate at one point where the retailers, some of the bigger retailers were matching the price-cutting retailers in their prices of hummus. And that gave us an opportunity as a brand to go on onto the shelf because they didn't have to price match us. And so, we got given that opportunity. And then from there, it really rocketed. And that was when everything we thought we could do with the brand was now actually being tested. Can you actually do anything with this brand? And will it do what you've been saying for the last 17 years? Will it actually— can you, you crazy South African, can you actually do what you've been asking to do?

And thankfully, We did.

I think once consumers started eating it, they really started enjoying it. And actually by now have really created an emotional connection to the product and the brand. And even to me a little bit in that, like I'm the person who gave it to them when it shouldn't, it's just a hummus, you know, it shouldn't be quite so emotional.

But that's what brands is about, isn't it? I mean, I've worked a lot in own label over the years and listening to you talk reminds me of when I was working in ready meals, own label ready meals for Tesco, and Charlie Bigham came along and went into Waitrose actually. And we're all sitting there going, nobody does brands in own label. It's, we own this space. How's that going to work? And then we were like, well, he'll just stay in Waitrose because yeah, okay. There's a few Waitrose consumers because Waitrose was a little bit different then. And, and then suddenly, you know, you fast forward and he's a £100 million brand.

And, and it's funny how you say that, isn't it? Because you say he is an, and that's the point. You get a person behind it. He is the 100 million. It's not they, it, you know, it's funny.

So you started in the living room. What were the, what were the steps that, that takes you to where you are now?

In terms of factory and, and operations, it went from the kitchen and the kitchen was actually a whole year. Every time my parents phoned me, I was sitting there making one falafel ball at a time, literally with this little gadget that like made a little shape. And they were like, again? I was like, all day long, any spare minute I had, I was like forming falafel balls. And then I got a small unit, which was gigantic at the time, but actually in retrospect was only a warehouse that I put some fridges and some tables in and it felt gigantic, but I was still the only one producing. And, and the irony is you go from different machines. You go, I had a 1-kilo Kenwood, then a 2-kilo Magimix, and I was doubling output. And then I went to a 9-kilo Robocoop blender, and it was like amazing, you know, because that was so much bigger. And it's just, there's such a gradual, like, ascend. It's almost glacial, and you don't notice it along the way. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs suffer with that because you want that one thing that's going to literally step change the business. I'd never got one. Like I didn't see something that literally just step changed it. Yes, the listings were great and those obviously helped, but even after listings, you have to get the sales. The incline is, it's not steep. It's not a hockey stick.

So there's not, there wasn't a step where you're suddenly in, in Sainsbury's or Tesco's and it goes.

It jumps. Look, it does. I mean, once you, once you get into mainstream, but even in mainstream, you know, they'll give you the first 100 or 200 stores they test you out. And then even in that, people don't know who you are. They don't know, they don't know that you're suddenly on the shelf. So you'll get more sales, but it doesn't like fly because you have to tell people that you're there. You have to get them to notice you, which is actually one of the reasons we have such big, bright colors.

Yes. It's real standout, isn't it?

Standout. Like I knew that we would get on that shelf and be on a wall of beige, so we may as well use fuchsia yellow highlighter, like an '80s disco had a baby, you know, like that. And we needed that because it sort of needed to slap people across the face when they walk past. But that's why it's not always, you know, think I'm going to get one Tesco listing and the whole world is going to change. It doesn't change. It takes a bit of time. It's brutal, the fact, but it is a fact. It doesn't turn around overnight. But if you look back, it does That incline is there. You, you, you just have to remember to look back and see what you did achieve because it's so, it's so easy to go, oh, well, I, I thought I'd double my sales, quadruple my sales in the first 3 months. Well, somebody has to actually pick it up off the shelf. They have to like look and go, oh, what's that? You know, give it a try.

So on that journey, did, did you take in investment over the years? When, when did you go, I need, need some money?

I think it's very naive to think you can go build a business in any form without getting some sort of money in. I think it can be organic for quite a long time. But at some point, especially if you're manufacturing for yourself, I think machines cost money and people cost money and marketing costs money. And it's not always in the business. So yes, I took investment over the years, loans, 0% credit cards. Blimey, you are, I was so creative. It's unbelievable. Like sometimes you really, and ironically, it's quite hard to get money from the banks. I always used to joke that they'll give you an umbrella when the sun is shining. So if your business is doing brilliantly and fully profitable, They'll give you a loan, and you're like, "But I don't need then. I need it when it's not, and there's no cash flow, and there's, and I'm growing, and I need a new machine, etc., etc." So I think investment is important. I think it's you got to be really careful where you get money from, and also how much equity you give for that. There seems to be a trend now I'm finding, and I feel old saying this, but younger people are coming to me, you know, saying I'm raising a million and two million pounds, and I'm like, Jesus. can you run that business on £20,000? Like, could you start it on £50,000? You're talking about millions of pounds. That is a noose around your neck the minute you start, the minute you get that money in.

Yeah.

And I think people don't get that the people that are investing in their businesses are not in love with their business. It's a transactional thing. You are in love with your business. You are emotional and, oh, it's my child and it's going to be amazing. And They love that enthusiasm and they will even be enthusiastic with you, but they still want a return on investment. I was quite lucky. I got an investor who was quite separate from the business, didn't, didn't sit on my neck, you know, a yearly or monthly P&L was enough to keep him happy. I think it's important to get money in, but I think it's, you should try and be a bit more reserved about it. Like try check if the business can run on itself.

It's interesting, actually, I was reading a post on LinkedIn today from Bonnie Cheung, who was talking from Miso Tasty, who was talking about Cockroaching, which I've not heard about before. And I don't know whether she's, she's made it up or whether it's a thing. I did start looking up, but, and, and basically the, the principle of creating, you know, cockroaches obviously are resistant to, to everything. And what she was saying was create a business that, that is robust and that you can run without all the other bits. Would you say you, you did that with yours?

Yeah, I think I would. I mean, I would say my brother gave me some really good advice right at the beginning. And he went, do not move until you can't breathe where you are. And it's a funny thing because you said in the beginning, it was my home, right? And I had packaging along the wall next to my bed. And my husband, I mean, bless him, he was a saint. There was chickpeas everywhere, oil. I mean, it was just— and only when I literally had to get onto my bed forwards, like on the front of my bed, did I think, oh, better get something bigger. You know what I mean? Like, I now literally can't breathe. It's very easy to spend money, very, very easy. And it is, and it's scary to wait for the sales before you get money in. And I did, mine was organic for a very long time, but then it makes it glacial. You know, you get a little bit of money in, so you grow a little bit. It does make it very, very slow. It was safe though. It saved the business. So I can't turn around and say the way I did it was right. And the ones that are raising millions probably looked at me and going, are you mad? It took you 5 years longer than I, than I I will take. And I go, so I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm just saying I didn't do it like that. And it was quite considered, very small chunks of money in, very— and I think the way to make your business be a cockroach and handle all that adversity is by being flexible. And the more you put money in and the more you invest before you have sales, the less flexible you can be because suddenly you're sitting with infrastructure, you're sitting with costs that you just can't maneuver. And that is dangerous, I think, for small businesses, for any business really.

I saw a business bring in, I think they raised about $1 million, $1.5 million, and they brought in 5 marketeers doing different marketing things. And I'm sitting there going, your runway is less than a year with these people. They're going to burn through your cash in a year. We are not going to be able to sell enough because as you know, and as you were saying about, you know, you get on, you think, well, I'll get on Tesco's and Tesco's could be worth £2 million. Well, Tesco's will not be £2 million on day one.

And then, and they can take 4 years to list you, even if they're really keen, they can be really keen and still take 4 years.

So what's your ultimate goals for the business now? You know, you've, you've, you're in the retailers, it's on the shelf, it's selling. What gets you out of bed?

Oh my God, I love this brand. I mean, I love this brand. And I think my staff don't quite understand why I love it quite so much. Like, I think it is because I'm out and about a lot in the market. I get so much love for the brand. And because of that, I find myself ignited again and again every single day because I just feel like we're doing something extraordinary, which is as I said, mad. It's just hummus. It should just be a chickpea dip. It should be nothing like— it shouldn't be this exciting and it shouldn't be so emotional, but it is. And it is even for me. And I think, so for me, I think the brand, we're still quite small. We've got a huge amount of headway to grow still. There are people who are eating hummus that don't know about us. There are people, then there's 60% of this country who don't eat hummus. They don't know what it is, which is crazy. But for those of us who love it, but they don't. And I'm going to find each one of them and I'm going to— tell them, not only, not only don't you know what it is, I'm going to sell them the Bible and the religion. I'm going to tell them, this is what you need to be doing. And I'm hoping that I will succeed. But I think generally what gets me out of bed is the fact that I think we've got a huge amount of growth. Europe's on our doorstep. There is a lot of exciting movements still to come. And I absolutely want to be part of that. I want to give people other flavors and exciting, exciting things to try because Now we can take the brand for a ride. It took so long to get to where it is, like not, not being part of it now and not giving the consumers more of what they're loving, which is madness. You know, now we've got the relationship, let's take it for a ride. You know, we won't always succeed, but it's worth a try.

Oh, and without, without revealing any business secrets, is, is Ramona's hummus or can Ramona's stretch into other things?

It does. We've already started stretching into dips. I think we want to move into the dip category quite, quite Heavily if we can. It's a logical next step, but I think we'll be very considered about it. I don't think we want to be an everybody, you know, we don't need to be the sour cream and chives dip. What we want to be doing is taking something that is popular and that people enjoy and just doing our own spin on it, making it a bit different, a bit more Ramona-ish. We've made a Greek trio, which is our first step into dips, which has got a spiced feta dip. It's got a tzatziki and a Kalamata olive hummus. So those are like already stepping out of the hummus range into things people know, people who know of whipped feta, they've seen, you know, tzatziki. It's not so far out of their realm. It's not a foie gras or whatever. It's, you know what I mean? It's, it's keeping things that are known and just making it ours and making it what we like to believe better.

So it's taking one step rather than 3 or 4.

Correct. We don't want all the dips. We just want the ones that make sense for the brand. And I think that's a logical, a logical next expansion. And I think the consumers just will, they will try our things and hopefully we carry on delighting them.

Let's think about what you do in a week. Is your, is, are you a structured animal? Are you a random, let's see what's coming in?

A bit of both. I've got 2 kids and of course had them along the way of the business. So learned to be exceptionally structured because Otherwise, I didn't know where I was. And, and to be fair, my kids are quite good at self-parenting and have been since they were about 4. I think I am quite structured. I know what I'm doing when, and I write everything down because I know that the days can be pulled in 100 different directions and it's really easy to get distracted, especially when it's your own business or it's your own factory. Things go wrong all the time. It's very, very easy. So yeah, structured, but at the same time, I'm not the type of person who does a 5-year plan. I'll run and then see where things go and then pivot quickly. That didn't work, I'll go here. That worked, okay, so I'll do that. I think has benefited the business over time, probably irritated a few people along the way a lot. I think you as an entrepreneur have to rely on your gut a little bit. There is an element of knowing that this will work, even if you've got no absolute guarantee, and otherwise you wouldn't have, well, you wouldn't have started to begin with, would you? Like you have to have that personality that's, I'm gonna give it a try. And also not be afraid of failure. It's true.

You've got to try things. And I think entrepreneur, one of my challenges with a lot of entrepreneurs that I work with is the number of ideas they've got. Cause I'm like, guys, we've got to focus. Is there someone within your, your business structure that, that has a more strategic thought process?

Oh, absolutely. The business needs, it needs the yin and the yang. You know, you need the one crazy person that goes, we're going to go, go, go, go, go. And the other one goes, Slow down a second. I still need to fill out the forms for this. I need to, you know, just, can we just come back to reality for, can we come back to earth for 2 minutes? And that's great. I think you need both. I think you cannot rely on the one or the other. I think you have to, as the entrepreneur and the founder-led business, you have to be the one that is the cheerleader. You can't be the one that goes, I'm not sure that's going to work.

You know what I mean?

You, you have to be the one that's positive about it. You have to be the The excitement and the, and the, and the drive because other people aren't going to love it like you love it, right? They're just not. And so you can't rely on them to be the cheerleaders.

I've read that being in love with a business is not a good thing because it clouds your judgment. You know, when we, when we're in love with something, we see all, we don't see all the bad points. We don't see the faults. We just see this lovely thing. I had a business which went bust and I loved that business. I loved everything about it. And in the end, I had to put it to sleep, but, and it really broke my heart. So do you think you have to be in love?

No, I think you have to know, I think you have to be sane. I think you have to love it. I think, because listen, otherwise we're not going to do it. This is hard work before it becomes successful. And it doesn't always become successful, but as you just said, sometimes it just unfortunately doesn't. And So you have to have that will to keep going through the really rotten days, one after the other, after the other. And they don't just go away after days. They don't go away after months. It can be years. And it's brutal. So you have to have that why. You have to know why you're doing it. Having said that, you can't be blind. You have to be on top of your numbers. You have to know what you're looking at. You have to say, this is not working. I'm putting it to sleep, as you did. You know what I mean? You have to be brave enough to say, I love it, but it ain't working, or it's not working and I'm not gonna put it to sleep, but I'm gonna do this. And so I think that sanity of reading the numbers that I think I meet a lot of entrepreneurs who are like me, super excitable, really enjoy the brand, really wanna push their, their business. They committed, but don't spend the time learning what they need to learn. And you can't do that. So you have to have that balance of cheerleader, cheerleader, cheerleader, but what are my numbers? Where are we bleeding? Where is this business bleeding? And it's always bloody bleeding. That's the problem. They bleed for flipping decades and they're like the child that just is always sick. You know, it's like, so you have to, you have to learn what you need to learn in order to be brave like you were or persevere like I did, you know.

So in a week, say, you know, the week we've just had, What successes do you have? What, what, what are the little successes, the little things where you go, that was a good week?

Yeah, I think if we can get through a week where there's no major loss in sales somewhere, you know, because, you know, you learn to love the very little things that you don't notice when they work. You know, if we haven't lost a customer, if we haven't shorted on anything, if the factory is running without any major incident. That's a great week. That's a pop the champagne every Friday week. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't have to be earth-shattering. It's not champagne when something good happens. It's champagne when nothing bad happens because that stuff happens, right? It's just always, no business can get away with not having that. And so, I think for me, Friday looks great when we've gotten somewhere, we've had loads of emails from customers saying, we love your product. The product is good. We haven't got quality issues. You know, these little things everyone thinks just run normally don't. Things go wrong every single bloody day. So if you can get through a week where you've gone, actually wasn't so bad, um, that's a, that's a, you know, that is a definite vodka martini day.

That's a really, really good point and a completely different attitude, I think, to anybody I've spoken to, because you obviously fizz with excitement. You fizz with the the enjoyment of what you're doing, but actually the success is boring stuff.

Yeah. And also because no one's clever enough to look at what they're doing and go, oh my God, we've done so well this year. You're always looking at a to-do list that never finishes, right? It just, no matter how quick we're getting with everything, we're still not gaining any more time. So you've got a to-do list that's hanging over your head, probably a family, a parent, that's ill or whatever. You know, everyone's got something. So it's easy to not look at any successes. And for me, it's really just about look back 5 years and see that you've— you're growing, things are getting better. And then also just say, did nothing go wrong? Because that too is a success and acknowledge it, at least acknowledge it. I appreciate most people aren't opening up champagne for it, but it's worth the acknowledgement in my opinion, because I think otherwise you can get really— Bogged down.

And I was talking to a client the other day. We were writing an award entry actually, and looking at where the success points were. She said, we've done this and we've done that. I said, your service level is consistently 99.7% because that's what your factory managers just told me. You haven't had, and I hate saying this, it's like saying Macbeth in a theater. You haven't ever had a recall and you're a AA+ BRC consistently year after year.

Yeah.

And she went, yeah, well, we do that every year. I said, no single business consistently ticks those 3 boxes. I said, that in itself is a major, major achievement.

This is like huge, right? I think people don't stop and think, and if it wasn't that, what would it be?

Trust me, I've worked in businesses where service level is not 99.9, it's not funny.

And it's 40%, and the retailers are on your neck in the vein right there, and you, And you're panicking and they're threatening D-list. There are so many alternatives to normal, to just an okay week. You know what I mean? And they're not pretty. And we've all had them. As you said, we've all had recalls. This is the food industry. Things go wrong and no one's clever enough to avoid them. The weeks that they don't go wrong are successful weeks.

So I suppose the flip of that is How do you make sure that the important things happen?

I think it's just repetition. I think once you decide what is the most important thing, for me, it's quality and I don't stop talking about it. They want to kill me already. But whenever I go to the factory, I spend a lot of time reminding everyone quality is the reason the brand's success. So that repetition, I think, is really important. I think they're hearing it and they, there is no doubt that anyone is sitting there going, I'm not sure what her priority is. They know. And yes, there are other things that are important. This is important. There's millions of things that are important in a business, but you need to decide what the top 3 are. And for me, there was the top one, and I harp on about it all the time because other things tend to fix themselves. They're known. You have a problem with a P&L, or this cost too much money. There was a delivery, there was a problem. They get fixed. There are people that fix it, but those aren't what I think the leaders need to be prioritizing. And if you are clear on that and you repeat it again and again and again, then everybody's on the bus. Oh, actually, I had a funny situation once. The factory manager pulled me aside and he said, you don't know what happened last week. We had some really amazing hummus. Hummus changes all the time. It's not always exactly the same, but this one batch was just delicious. And I go around the factory speaking to people all the time going, you have to put love into this. Our consumers can feel it. If you don't put it in, I promise you they can tell And I'm nagging about this bloody quality and love in this product all the time. And then this one batch of hummus was amazing. He goes to the guy, the worker on the line, and he went, you know, what, what was different here? He went, I just put extra love. You know what I mean? Now that is the best thing I had ever heard in my life because it just meant, first of all, that I wasn't driving them mad. I was actually getting in there. But it meant that even down on the line, somebody understood that when I say made with love, and chickpeas, it is, and we're not lying. It's important to us. But what is that one thing that makes you and your business impenetrable?

You talked about P&L. We talked about quality measures. What about love measure? Is there a love measure in your business?

I measure the love by the result of the consumer interaction.

Okay.

So we are fortunate. We have quite a good conversation with our consumers and we get it by having an email address on the back of every single pot.

Okay.

That emails me directly.

Right.

And that's quite an interesting thing. And I haven't changed it yet. Maybe one day it'll get too big and I won't be able to respond to all of them, but—

You read them all.

I read them all and respond to every single one of them. And we have a disproportionate amount of good emails. I don't have time to email when something's wrong. I'll be very honest with you. I can't, I don't have time to complain about things, but to send an email saying I love something is a whole nother like level of time, you know, giving. And so I absolutely give it the respect it deserves because, you know, I think it's quite a thing for somebody. And I'm not saying I don't get a whole lot on Saturday nights when people come back from their jollies and are busy eating the hummus and they see it on the back and go, oh, I'll just send her a quick email. And, oh, I love your hummus. I'm sitting here with 5 of my university friends. We get those and I love them. But I also get the, I was eating your hummus and I was in Beirut in 1972 and my neighbor used to make me hummus. So, and it tastes like that. So I really remember it. Or my child has an eating disorder and the only thing they'll eat is your hummus. So you're saving my child. You know, little, like, there are really personal emails that come in. And some of them are just one line. They go, I bloody love your hummus. It's just my best thing. And that's, even that one line is like, it's like somebody giving me a hug, literally a hug. And so I measure how well we're doing by putting our love into the product. by how much love we get back. So if there's suddenly like a lull in praise emails, or like there's just zero, I'll go to the product and just have a look and go, is this still as good as I always thought it was? You know, has something dipped? Because sometimes when it's like really brilliant, people are emotive and therefore they'll email. So sometimes we, you know, look, like every product, you have ups and downs.

So it's not a KPI in terms of you measure it, but it's a, again, it's instinctive, isn't it?

Love is an emotion, right?

You know your business.

A little bit of a feel. There's a bit of a feel to things. You're like, has anyone had an email? Has there been like lots of messages through Instagram? Is it like, are our consumers quiet at the moment? Where is everyone? And then you just have a little double check.

What would you do if you had an extra day? Would you work? Would you take time out? What would you do?

I have to say, I find it hard not to work.

Same.

I really do. I know it's so sad. I mean, my friends look at me going, But I do find it hard not working. I like to be touching, even when I'm on holiday, I'll just check my phone, just see what's going on. I like to just have a touch on it. But yes, I also like a day off and I do like to just do nothing once in a while. Like it does catch up to you. And I do think you need to listen to yourself and go, all right, it's that day. Do not touch me. I'm sitting on that couch. I'm putting on mindless television. Please don't even walk up to me, you know. Phone means there's a fire. It's a balance. I think it's a balance. We don't have a balance, obviously. None of us do. We're all unbalanced. But I've also, I've gotten older now and I've started becoming a little bit less pressurized about the imbalance that we have. You know, oh my God, I haven't gone to a netball match and I haven't had the beetroot turmeric ginger shot that nobody has a recipe for that's going to change my life, you know. So I haven't had that or did get to the gym, didn't get to the gym. It's, it's just not easy. I think, I think nobody's got it right. Everybody thinks they can be doing better. Anyone can be eating better. Everyone can be exercising more. Everyone can be more involved with their kids, but not being a helicopter parent. I mean, I've become a lot less stressed about that now. I've sort of come to terms with the fact that none of us have it right. And that's okay.

So on a Friday, is Friday the end of your week or does—

Yeah, no, I would say so. I think nowadays, I think at this point in the business, Saturday and Sunday are nisses afire. You know, there's no there's no reason for me to log on, or there's a few emails that come through. So it's it's a weekend now. Then used to be at the beginning, of course. It's family time, more time with the kids that are teenagers already. So that's that's quite nice. You know, as the business grows bigger, you've got more responsibility but less physical things to do. So it's nice. It's nice. It's lots of lots of time spent, but lot but not like that pressure. And I do now, which is. very new to me, a lot of marketing. I'm officially the face of the brand. And you asked me 20 years ago who should be the face of the brand, I can tell you mine would be at the bottom of the list. But here we are. And so we do, I do find myself in some very funny situations where I'm like on a boat in the Thames pushing dips, or on Monday I will be ziplining. And I'm like, am I not too old for this? But here I am.

Did you say ziplining?

I did. And ice skating.

Oh my gosh.

And you'll have to, you'll have to watch, uh, social media for that one, I think, because I do think to myself sometimes, how did this happen to my life? Like, well, how did that, where did this like shift? But I guess I'm, I'm the one who's willing to do it, I guess.

So you're saying it's changed. Do you, do you have, I don't know, a favorite productivity hack, something that you, an app you love or?

No, I don't. But I do have one thing that I've done my whole life. I don't know if, I don't know whose saying this was. Eat the frog. Have you ever heard that saying?

I've heard eat the frog. Yeah.

Eat that frog, which is do the worst thing of your day first. Hardest and first thing of the day, do it first. Because I love doing all the little things first because you tick off a million little things and you never quite get to that big one thing. And it hangs on your head and you're like, oh my God. So I very early on in the business got to the discipline. At some point I was even up at 5 o'clock in the morning to do that frog eating. And it does create a huge amount of relief. It takes an enormous amount to get to do that. Like that first step, opening it up, that document or starting that Excel or whatever it is, reading the first line of the document that you're just dreading. Is the hardest part is that first step. But once you do it, I find it's a, that's a real hack. Like the rest of your day is just—

Plus, yeah, no, it's, it's good because the day's been clear for all the other shit that comes, you know. What about reading? Do you read? Do you watch podcasts?

Yeah, I listen to podcasts and I do listen to books. So I'm in the car quite a lot going from place to place. So I listen or on trains. to and from meetings. So I like the same sort of theme as the movies and shows, like somebody's a spy. Yeah, I'm not terribly unique. I think, you know, I'll just, if somebody's a spy and something to that effect, I'll listen to the book. And I don't mind listening because I find when I start reading in bed, I fall asleep too quickly. I don't, my husband says the characters commit suicide before I even get to the next chapter. So like, You're taking too long. So at least when I'm listening to a book, I can get through them. And I think it's important. I think when I was younger, I did a lot of self-help books and I see them like in the cupboard from when I was in my 20s. And now I see my eldest daughter starting to take one out and, you know, reading these little things like, and I think that's good. I think it's important for us to show our teenagers that one, there are self-help books, there's ideas, and also there's lots of them. So no one is perfect. They're all interesting and they'll just seep in and then you'll maneuver that advice to what suits you.

Okay, so we'll do some quickfire last 30 seconds. So perfect or done?

Oh, done. 1,000%. My God, get to 70, 80% and move.

Work early or work late?

I'm an early, but I live with someone who works late, so we'll be married forever because we This is the question we wrote before the change on Bake Off, actually.

So I was going to say Mary Berry or Cru Leith, but now we can say, or Nigella Lawson.

I'm going Nigella. Maybe she'll mix it up a little bit.

Yeah, no, I think I would probably go Nigella out of those. Data or instinct?

Well, instinct, but that doesn't mean I don't use data. I mean, you know what I mean? But instinct for me is a really big thing. I think we need to trust our guts.

We do. And on the, on the, for the final one then, hire for skill or hire for fit?

I think skill. I think somebody can fit into a business fantastically, but if they're not bringing something, I think you find the people that have skill fit in fantastically because they relieve things. You know, I've never known someone who's so shit hot at their job that they just, no one got on with them. They, everybody loves them. The people that get stuff done. Brilliant.

And you get stuff done for sure.

Options are slim, right?

Well, thank you so much. It's been absolutely fascinating. Really enjoyed it. Love your energy. Love what you're doing with the brand. And, uh, you need to get some Ramonas into France.

Gotta do it. Gotta do it. We'll do it sometime in the next few years for sure.

Where's the best place we can find Ramonas? Where?

Well, I'm pleased to say you can find it in probably most retailers now. Tesco, Sainsbury's, Morrison's, Asda, Waitrose. even in their convenience shops. So pick it up, give it a try.

Thank you so much.

I really do appreciate it.

Hi.

Thank you.

That was Ramona Hazan, founder of Ramona's, the UK's number one hummus brand. The thing that stayed with me most from this conversation is Ramona's reframing of what a good week actually is. Not a win, not a breakthrough, just nothing went badly wrong. Along with prioritising quality, I think there's something genuinely useful in that mindset for anyone building a product business. If you found this episode useful, share it with someone who's building something too. And if you want to talk about profitable sales growth for your business, you can find me at birology.co.uk or on LinkedIn.