How Chanie Fixed Her Offer, Team, And Systems So She Could Write A Book

Welcome to the Business Without Burnout podcast. I'm Kirsten Roldan and I help entrepreneurs make a lot of money peacefully. I'm a New Yorican who went from working in healthcare while cleaning houses and braiding hair on the side to building a business that's generated over $4 million and counting. But there was a time I almost shut my business down because I had a lot of money but no peace. I managed to turn it around and that's why every week I share the 4 strategies that help you grow without burnout: email marketing, team systems, and mindset. So let's dive in. Hello, lovely podcast listeners. Welcome back. I am so excited to finally have Honey on the podcast. She was a client of my mastermind a while back and has written— has since written a book, become an author, which is the whole reason why she ended up joining, because she needed the time and the capacity to be able to do that. And so to see her again is so exciting, and I have been wanting her to tell her story for so long. So I'm very excited. Honey, please introduce yourself to those who may not know you.

Hi, thanks for having me. I'm really honored to be here. Yeah, so there's so many different ways I can introduce myself, but I guess what's coming up for me right now is I'm a mom of 4 kids. My youngest is 8, my oldest just turned 16. We just celebrated our 17th wedding anniversary last week. So that's kind of, you know, very fresh in my mind. I'm the founder and owner of Schools of Excellence, which is a coaching, training, and consulting company where we work with private school leaders to help them install infrastructure inside of their schools. And so I started my career, gosh, almost over 20 years ago. I've worked in every level of school leadership inside of the ecosystem. And a big part of what brought me into starting the company and then eventually writing my book, uh, This Can't Be Normal, is what do you do when success starts to feel like survival? So many people who are listening to this obviously can relate to, you've achieved a level of success, put any, insert any bucket of your life, business, financials, health, wellness, financials, like it doesn't matter what bucket, you achieve a certain level of success, but then that success starts to trap you and actually starts to create a certain feeling of almost suffocation of survival of like, how do I keep running in this direction? So I would say that's, that would be my intro into who I am.

Which is perfect for the Business Without Burnout podcast. So I I would love to hear, tell us about your company and where it was when you and I met and you were introduced to this program.

Yeah, so one of the reasons that kind of had me seeking some answers was we had gotten client results for years already from when I first started. The ability to help a client get a result was not our issue. The challenge was, well, there was a few challenges. There were a few holes in the business, right? One was we weren't reliably and predictably bringing in clients into our ecosystem. The second challenge was, is that there were so many things that we can help our clients with, and so everything felt very bespoke or very customized. And so that obviously creates fragmentation and overwhelm and burnout on the team trying to deliver a million different things. We didn't really have core shared definitions of success for each client because everything was bespoke and everything was like, well, well, this client's success journey looks like this, and this one's success journey looks like this.

Mm-hmm.

And of course, there's always nuance. But if you don't have a shared definition of a starting point, you're gonna be all over the place. So that was kind of what invited this journey of like, I don't know what the answer is. And I'm not sure what I'm seeking. But I know that this can't be normal. Like, what is happening right now is actually not normal. And we kind of— I stumbled on your podcast, or I stumbled on some form of content that you put out there. I think the first piece of content that I had connected with was something around knowing what your core pillars are, like what what do you actually teach? What— and forgive me, I don't remember the exact name of what you're referring to. But there was something along those lines that I was like, could we need clarity on like, what do we actually do here? Like, I make it sound so mystical and so nuanced, but it's actually really not like there's actually, you know, a rhyme and reason here. So you and I got on a call together. And I was like, yeah, like, we need this today. And I think next week, we had already scheduled like a full VIP day together, something to that extent. And that conversation is what really had me creating 5 Gears, which is our core IP right now. It's trademarked. It's our IP. And the 5 Gears are the 5 core areas that every school always is working on to build and sustain their school. So that's really where I started before you and I found each other.

Yeah, I remember vividly at that time you were having certain clients that were coming to you. Well, you had some clients that were disengaged and you were like, why are they disengaged? My stuff is incredible. I don't understand. This will change their lives, right?

Yes.

And then you had other clients that were like, hey, I'm just so busy right now. I just don't know if I should be in this program. Like, I think I might leave. And you were like, why would you leave? You need me so bad. Yes. Yes. And we, yes, we really wanted to solve that problem. And I remember telling you like, we're gonna solve that problem in one day on that VIP day, which we ended up getting. And I remember it was one of my, to this day, one of my all-time favorite VIP days because by the end of it you were like, this is exactly why people have disengaged and this will absolutely get them back. And I remember after you ended up implemented the curriculum and everything like that, You did report to us like people are re-engaged, people are— Yes.

Back.

Nobody's leaving anymore. How has the program felt since then?

Creating the 5-year curriculum took us a year, right? Where we really focused on curating stuff that I'd already created, updating the right things and ensuring that, okay, this is our 5-year curriculum. And then as a business owner and as a founder, creation is a drug. Um, and you will always want to be in creation mode because it's a fun place to be. You can always optimize and biohack, uh, that area. And so when you understand that creation is a drug for entrepreneurs, the awareness is what helps you create solutions to that. So because I know creation is where I want to be, once I finished the 5 Gear curriculum, then it was like, okay, This is the curriculum. Now it's about implementation and installation. Okay team, let's do this. And I'm gonna route my creative energy towards this. And that's when I wrote my book, This Can't Be Normal: What to Do When Success Starts to Feel Like Survival, because I got to actually take all of the things that I've done, journal entries, observations, all of these things, and actually turn all of that into another massive asset in the business, which is now a book. And now that I finished the book, you would think my creation drug is over. It ain't over. I have other things that I'm gonna go start.

Now There's another book.

Exactly. Exactly. But the point is, is understanding who we are as entrepreneurs, as visionaries, and as leaders, and understand that your creation drug isn't going anywhere. Like, how do you manage that and how do you use that as a superpower as opposed to something that you'll forever be enslaved to as a drug?

This is so beautiful and a bit emotional for me because I don't know if you remember this, but on our sales call you had gotten a little teary-eyed because you were like, I'm really stressed out about this. Like, this is like, this has to get fixed. Like, you care so much about your clients. So you were like, this has to get fixed. And I remember you saying, I want time and capacity and the ability to write a book. And seeing you now being like, I was able to become the visionary and do that. It's just like emotional because I just remember when you were— Thanks. Yeah. So stressed out of, of trying to figure this out. That reminds me, you had some team stuff going on too. Can you tell us about what was going on at the team with the—

Sure.

At that time?

Yeah. So there are certain competencies and capabilities that make you successful. And anyone who's listening to this, you know what your superpowers are. You know the things that when you anchor into those, my God, are you unstoppable. Those things will also trap you and you will become a hostage to those capabilities and they will actually stall your growth. You will feel captive to those superpowers. So one of my biggest strengths is my generosity, my warmth, and my kindness. And because I am a kind, warm, and generous person, I use that to give endless chances and endless opportunity for people who actually did not deserve any more chances, um, and actually needed to be met with reality that they were not executing and they were not performing and they were not showing up. And our conversation started that journey and it took probably 18 months for me to really step into that arena in, in a really fully embodied way. Um, but a couple months ago I had an experience where I hired someone and 3 weeks later I fired them and it was the best experience and I'll explain why, even though it was brutal to fire and do all of that stuff. When she started to be met with reality of her skill gaps, which we all have, she did not want to encounter those skill gaps as, "Oh, I need to get better at understanding how the tech works over here and stop asking Connie a thousand questions." And every time I would put it in her face, she'd be like, "But you didn't train me. But you still didn't teach me. But you didn't this, but you didn't that." And I'd be like— And I, and I would eventually say, no, you, you have all the tools. Now you need to activate your brain and stop renting my brain to do your job. But she always had a reason. And eventually at the, at the 3-week mark, I was like, oh, I'm about to get sucked down this arena where I am always gonna be held responsible for her lack of execution because of fill in the blank reason. And so I got on a call with her and it was a 5-minute conversation. I'm like, this isn't a fit. This isn't a fit because here are the outcomes and 3 weeks of data are telling me this story. So I know where this plays out. So you're amazing and you have some phenomenal skills. My business requires people to actually come in contact with their skill gaps and be invited to go into the next level. And that's not something you're ready to do. And that's okay. But this isn't the company for you.

That is one of my all-time favorite things to coach people on is team culture. And a lot of times people will come to me and they're like, oh, I know that I could train them better and I know that I could do this and I know I just am not being a good leader. And I'm like, or what if the team culture is you have to show up?

Yes.

If I have to show up like a CEO, you have to show up strong too. And that's my favorite thing to coach on is allowing, especially as women, especially allowing you to have high standards, allowing you to be, and I hate this word because I would never actually use it, but like the quote unquote diva that you're so scared of being. You get to be that. Like, you get to be like, no, actually, I don't have to extensively hold your hand and train you. I gave you these documents. I told you where everything is. Now it's on you.

I'll tell you what I call in the book, actually, in chapter 3 of my book— chapter 2, I call it performing confusion.

Yeah.

So you give them the thing. They know what they have to do, but they perform confusion. I didn't know. I'm still I don't remember the login. I couldn't find the password, or I, I wasn't clear on the metrics. I'm not sure what the outcome is. I, I couldn't get through to that, that, uh, service provider or that contractor. Performing confusion because confusion buys your empathy, especially for highly empathic leaders. When someone performs confusion, you're like, oh my God, they're really confused and I'm not confused. So I'm gonna explain it to you better. And then you get sucked in a trap of overexplaining, of overtraining, of overteaching, of overnurturing, of over, over, over. And this can't be normal. It is not normal to do all of that. You have to call timeout and say, no, you're performing confusion right now. You actually know what to do, but you're scared to make a move because you don't have the courage to be wrong in this company. You must have the courage to take a test, put the experiment out into the market, let the market tell you, oh girlfriend, we don't want this product. Great, now go fix it.

Exactly, exactly. That brings me to a big question that I have, which is you are obviously literally in your line of work, you teach leadership, you teach teams, teach systems, teach all of this, right? And you didn't come to me a new business owner. You were doing 7 figures in revenue a year over that. You were doing great. And so what about this program helped you even though you are not a beginner? You were in, I remember you were in different business masterminds. Like you were not new to this. So what, what helped you the most in this program?

Sure. So, you know, it's interesting, I just had coffee this morning with a friend. And we were talking about mentorship. And we were talking about masterminds and kind of different things like that. So because I told her that on Wednesday, yesterday, I had just started working out with a new trainer, I had previous trainers that, that didn't work out, whatever it is, and I'm working out with her again tomorrow, twice a week. So she's like, why do you have a trainer? So I'm like, what do you mean? Like, I don't know how to train myself. Like, I— she, you know, does resistance training and strength training. And she's like, but yeah, you can learn how to train yourself and then, you know, eventually, like, just do it yourself. So then I said, but at what cost? At what cost do I need to now become an expert on personal training and flexing and muscling and where— how to stick out my— my— like, which leg to pull up and what to do here? What I could just say, hey, I would like to get stronger. I am 39 years old. I've had 4 kids. Like, I need to do this. Like, can you help me, right? And so she's like, but then you're outsourcing your agency. Like, now you're like bound to them. Like, you don't have your own freedom. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Mentorship is not about abdicating agency and stewardship in your own life. Mentorship and hiring a coach, a mentor, an advisor is help me see what is invisible to me because I am human, which means no human can see all their blind spots. And so for me, the biggest thing was coming in and saying, there is clearly something that you can see from your visible standpoint because, hi, you do this for a living all day long with business owners. Show me what I'm not seeing. Show me the blind spot. Show me that one area that when I turn that around, it'll have a massive impact. And part of being a 7-figure business owner is I know my own agency and my own stewardship. So I know, and I'm like, you know what? I like that idea. I don't like that idea. I like that thing. That won't work for me. That is part of being in any mastermind. There is no program that is going to be there where it's like, and everything that Kirsten teaches is perfectly relevant to me. Oh, oh my gosh, lady.

I know. You have to learn how to lead yourself.

Exactly. Exactly. And that's what I came for. So I know how to lead myself. I came because I'm like, there is something that you have that can add value to my business. And now I could take it to a different level.

Yeah. What I loved about working with you is, first of all, Honey and I have very similar energies.

We're both—

we're both from New York. We've got very similar, like, just tell me what I need to do and I'll go do it energy. So you would come on a call real quick, 10 minutes, you'd be—

and you'd be gone.

You're like, I'm going, like, I got what I need. And I'm the same.

Yes.

So what I loved about coaching you is you were just so clear when you came in on what you wanted from me. Like, you were like, like, yeah, okay, you may teach all these things, but I really just want offer and team right now from you. Like, that's really all I want. Once I get that, we're— you and I are good. Like, I, I— then I'm off to the races.

Yeah.

And that's exactly what we did. And it was like, okay, what do I need to fix about my offer? What do I need to fix about my team? And go from there. And then you were off to the races.

And I just— Yes.

Yes. It's such a good example of how a CEO, a good— I talk about this in the program, Now More Than Ever, founder versus CEO. A CEO knows how to come in, get exactly what they need, see that as worth the entire investment, and then they're like, we're good, right? And I feel like you were very good at that about getting exactly what you needed. What do you— do you have like a favorite thing that I said to you or moment, breakthrough, aha moment that, that happened between us?

So yeah, I would say like what we said, you know, how we started off the call around the 5 gears. So when we started to do the offer map or, you know, that, that process together, that you work through. So I started to kind of, I don't know, brain dump a bunch of different things and you were taking notes in real time and kind of putting stuff together. And as you were putting those stuff together, you're like, okay, well all of that goes under, you know, parents and all of that goes under like this concept. And then you were like, what would all this fit under? And I was like, well, that would all go under an enrollment. You're like, okay, well then enrollment's something else. And so what was happening is in the, in the process of working on the offer, we started to format these things. Then I took that and then on my own, again, agency, I sat with all that. I'm like, okay. I know the industry for 2 decades based on all the stuff that we did here. Kirsten's inviting me to look at things from a bucket perspective of like, this can all chunk up to this, this can all chunk up to this, this doesn't have to be so nuanced, the, the, this fits under here, this fits under. And then I sat with that for several months. It took me time to massage it, but I got there and now we have the 5 gears. So I would say for me, that was the biggest piece is the invitation to really understand what the offer is.

Yeah. And I loved that because something that we really were talking about was I was like, listen, it's actually very simple. Disengagement is only happening because your, your teachers are so stressed out about enrollments right now. Like, that's the number one thing they're stressed out about. You're already teaching that here. Just make sure you're also teaching it here because they're just stressed about it.

And then we took that enrollment gear.

Yeah.

Pulled it out, made it its own product. That is actually now a tripwire offer that we invite people to, you know, whatever it is as an invitation. I forgot what we charge But it's like under $200. And it's really just that beautiful invitation for people to come in, whoever's struggling with enrollment. So knowing your offer, if that's your biggest thing while you're listening to this, even if you have so much experience and coaching and training and all of that, I think that is the trap. Like the person who has the most content, like we have 305 podcast episodes on my podcast. Like I am a content machine. I could produce like anything. Every morning I could wake up and I could write a whole episode. That doesn't mean I'm supposed to. That's the biggest piece here is the discipline of what is your offer versus what are all the things that sit around it.

Yeah, I loved that. I remember us talking about that actually, like what's the difference between core content and curriculum versus marketing? Like, that's a great podcast episode.

That's the other thing. The curriculum is the head coach. That I would say is probably the biggest thing I obsess over all day long with my coaches is the curriculum is the head coach. Meaning if you are struggling with how to coach a client, and it is not in the curriculum, that is a gap. But now we don't have that anymore. Meaning every time my coaches are on a thing, they're like, well, do you check that standard? Did you check that gear? Did you look into that piece?

Right?

And then if it's nuanced with that, we're like, yeah, I checked it out. But yeah, great. So come to the next group coaching call. And you know, I can answer you on X, Y, and Z. But the curriculum is the head coach. I mean, you need a title, you need like a billboard, the curriculum.

I'm glad you said that, because I almost forgot. I, I remember you said, yeah, they, they keep having to come to me and I have to be on the calls and I have to make sure everyone— there's so much nuance and I'm the one jumping in. And I totally forgot that the whole— a huge reason why we were updating it was because I was like, you should not like have to run this offer at all if you don't want to. You should only be there and be because you want to be.

And because—

Yes, yes, yes. So now you're able to be, like you said, now you're able to be the visionary, be optional improve client results at the same time. All the things.

All the things.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, the dream.

The dream.

Yes. Yes. I love it. Tell us about how you went from— tell us about where your business is now and how you got to the book.

Ooh, such a good question. So I had actually been writing the book in, you know, the margins of my notebook, if you will, uh, since 2020. So from, you know, I would say really from March of 2020 when COVID was spreading like wildfire in New York City, and that's where we lived, and I got the first round of COVID like when everyone was getting COVID in New York City, that's what I got. That's when I started writing the book because the, the questions that really invited me into the book were, why does building a bigger team leave leaders feeling more alone? You know, why do leaders spend years building support systems and still feel unsupported? Why does being needed feel meaningful until it becomes suffocating? And why does highly capable leaders' competence eventually become a trap? Those were my questions that I went into writing this book. Now, I wrote every single day for years. And since 2020, I've been like, I need to get this book published. I need to get this book published.

I need—

but writing a book and actually publishing a book and sitting with editors and formatting it and writing chapters and, you know, like subtracting what goes in and what goes out and what stories to write, that is its own creative endeavor and process. And And the amount of mental bandwidth that's needed to do something like that is a beast. Meaning the only way I was able to go do that was because I actually had someone who was in charge of the product. I had coaches who I can fully trust and lean on cuz they were getting the client results. We had people that were running our marketing and our social media and, and those things over there. So the business was running while I was able to go write the book. Now there is a cost. To that 6-month period when the book came out, meaning we did take a dip in company revenue during that time, uh, because of some lack of systems and different things like that, which we're building back up again. But I think it's really important to know the reality of any big endeavor you go after. There is always a trade-off. There is always a cost to something. You, you can't get the upside without the cost. And I knew that putting the book out there, the business would take a hit in some areas. but we had built enough shock absorbing in the business, in retention, in client results, in all of these things that the business was able to take that hit momentarily, like for a short period of time while we built a bigger asset. And so the bigger question for, for leaders here is about, is your business strong enough for you as a business leader to go and take some bigger risks? And it might not be a book, it might be other things, but your business has to be strong enough to absorb the shock. of you actually stepping up. Because it doesn't matter how much you prepare, reality will still smack you in the face. So how strong is the business for when reality comes at it? Will it crumble or will it absorb that shock and you can come back and still continue to build?

I'm sitting here clapping because I, first of all, I, I wanna name what you said about, you know, the income dip, for example. And I just am thinking about, we say this in our trainings, being a CEO means you should be obsessed with growing your company. Growing your company is not always growing revenue. It's growing assets. It's growing client results. It's growing profit. It's growing several things. And like you've said, and I'm looking at you and how happy you are and how—

I am.

How proud you are.

Yeah.

I'm like, worth, worth any income debt, right? This is the point. This is, this was the growth for that year. And so there's that, right? There's that side of it where sometimes, like you said, you pause a launch, for a different kind of growth. And then also what you were saying around, is your business strong enough? That is why I'm so obsessed with the concept of being CEO optional, because even if you are working day to day in the business, being optional in the business is the measurement for how strong it is.

Absolutely.

Can it handle an income dip? Can it handle handle you not being there every day? Can it handle you writing and not creating marketing, for example? Can it handle that, right? Like, that is the whole point. That's why I measure it that way.

Yeah.

And just everything you're saying, I'm just like, yes, exactly. That's everything you're supposed to build your company to do. You're supposed to build your company to be able to be a visionary and grow in different ways outside of revenue. And to grow in even when you're not there.

Yeah.

And to handle challenges.

And I mean that so much of this journey is what I changed so much of the book, right? Though chapter 1 of the book is The Invisible Weight of Leadership, which is what brought me to work with you in the beginning where I was being crushed by the invisible weight of what I was responsible for to produce inside of the business. So like, it's not normal the way that you feel right now. It's not success. This is not the cost of success. This is what a lot of people say is the cost of success, but it is not. There is a third option.

It's like you said, and a lot of women feel guilty about this, but it's, it's, it's like you were saying around, you know, this isn't normal. It's not supposed to be like this. I say this all the time and people, they think it's crazy and I'm like, it's actually so easy to be successful. Like having success should not hurt and be painful. It's actually should feel very exciting and fun. If you know, like you said, how to handle those different things.

But there's, the nuance to that is the deep work of what it means to actually receive. What would it feel like to not be needed in your business? That is absolutely terrifying for someone that's always been needed. That's why I asked one of those questions. Being needed feels meaningful until it becomes suffocating. Now I'm needed all the time. No, I like to be needed. It's a human need. But also, I'd like to be optional sometimes. I'd like to not be suffocating under the weight of this. So it's recognizing, like, just— you think that you're like, no, I never want to be needed. You have to learn how to not be needed.

You have to learn that. Yeah.

You have to learn that. That is its own journey. That is coaching, mentorship, therapy, whatever it is for you, depending on where you are. But learning how to make success fun and how that it shouldn't feel like survival. Yeah, that's it. That's a journey. You, you think you're going to be so excited when you get to that place. You got to learn how to receive it.

It's actually so funny, and that's, that's— I love that we're ending off on this. It's so funny. Every time I get someone from Founder to Visionary, I— you would think we're done, we reached it. Oh my goodness, the amount of coaching required for them to feel safe that they're working less, for them to feel safe that someone's doing— it's crazy. I'm like, oh my goodness, it's like its own thing.

Well, that's the stage that I'm in right now, right? That's the invitation. And, and that's the beauty thing here. Like we were saying before, the work on becoming and continually becoming a CEO and keep on inviting yourself to what the next level invites you into. It's, it's not that, oh my God, I couldn't see this before. It's now there's enough space and safety for you to encounter a new part of you. Now you're encountering the CEO that doesn't need to be needed in that way. Well, Well, what happens when I go and invite this? Well, you're going to go encounter a new level. It's locked and coded right now because you can't access it, but soon you will be able to and you'll meet that person. And how beautiful to keep meeting a new you.

So amazing. Thank you so much, honey. Please tell people where they can find you.

Yes, you could go to Connie Wilshansky on Substack. We have thiscan'tbenormal.com is where you could go get chapter 1 for free from the book. Just a beautiful place for you to encounter again, what is the invisible weight of leadership. So, and then of course all my socials, Connie Wolschanski. Thank you so much. I love this conversation. I always love talking to you. So thank you for having me.

Thank you so much for coming. I appreciate it.