The Equinox Effect: Innovating Fitness – Lavinia Errico : 1116

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey, formerly Bulletproof Radio. You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey. This is an in person interview here in my studios in Austin, which makes it way more fun. And today we're going to talk about the birth of the modern fitness movements with Lavinia Erica, who's the founder of Equinox and doing something new called MoveJoy. I'm interested in how companies and movements form. And clearly I started the biohacking movement, so I've practiced this. But I like talking with people who've created something big and something that lasts to see what I can learn and to see what you can learn from it as well. So let's figure out why we're all working out the way we are with one of the people who made it happen. And also look at what's next, because it's probably not what you think it's going to be. Lavinia, welcome.

Yes, thank you so much for having me.

We're also going to talk about spirituality and biohacking and what it takes to be an entrepreneur at scale like that and the self management that's a part of it. And also, how do you do it when you're a woman? Because maybe it's different than doing it as a man. Maybe, maybe not. We're gonna, we're gonna go deep on that. All right, Lavinia, let's go back to the foundations of equinox. It's the 80s and you're at a bar late at night. Okay. I don't know, but what was going on? Tell me how this worked.

First of all, I had lived in California first and I was in LA and I was actually teaching aerobics.

And did you have like a jazzer sized leotard in like the leg warmers and all that?

Something a little close to that, yeah. With the. Yeah, yeah. I was definitely full in that look. I kind of think of it as like the Jane Fonda look.

It was totally a look of the 80s. I don't know why we had the leg warmers, but they were kind of cool at the time.

No, they looked great.

Yeah, they kind of did. Almost like fur leggings.

I was a dancer before, so we always wore leg warmers. It was this part of the uniform and the culture, so I was very comfortable wearing them. So when I moved back to New York, I was actually shocked that the workout community there was like, dull. It just wasn't great. I mean, I remember walking into a health and Racket Club. And like, the men were walking around with, like, their black socks on from their suits and barefoot, and it was just like, wow. Like, this is so antiquated. Like, somebody needs to build something here in the city. And there were a couple of, like, great studios, but there wasn't something that had it all. Like, there wasn't something that had great bodybuilding, great working out, great classes, great vibe, you know, clean. And I mean, I was working out in like the dirty, dingy workout gym, you know, underground with no windows.

Yeah, that really good air.

Yeah, it was just really like, oof. It's not your way that you want to start at 7 o' clock in the morning or 6 o' clock in the morning. And my brothers and I lived on the Upper west side and we were kind of complaining a lot, or maybe I was the one complaining, like, someone needs to open a gym. Someone needs to open a gym. And then finally, at one point, we sort of looked at each other and I feel like, at least this is my recollection, it was like, well, maybe we should do this. We were going to keep our daytime jobs. We were just going to open up a little gym on the Upper west side that we could work out with, our friends could work out with, and that was going to be it. And all of a sudden we're pre sailing and it was just like. I mean, it was amazing. I don't think we even expected how successful it was going to be. You know, we knew that we wanted it, but we weren't sure. And then we opened up our first gym. It was 7,000 square feet.

That is so huge, small. My upgrade labs are like 2,600. So I'm like, we're using.

I mean, now they're like at 40,000, the equinoxes. But our first one was a small gym.

It's a lot of square footage to me.

And we opened up and it was like, it really was an instant success. It was really about timing and location. And I do believe we put in something that was different. Like, you know, we had our biggest competition. When you joked at a bar, our biggest competition at that time was happy. Wow. Everybody went from work to happy hour. Like, it wasn't the culture that we're gonna go to the gym and work out. Like, that wasn't part of the culture, you know, so you had to make a cultural change and, you know, we had to kind of make it a place where people really wanted, though.

So what does it mean? What did you change?

First of all, it had to be sexy, we put in a place that

was beautiful as opposed to, like, Muscle Beach.

Exactly.

Guys grunting with barbells.

Exactly. Impeccably clean, you know, again, style. Like, the lighting mattered, the architecture mattered, the interiors mattered, and then the people there. Like, I mean, in the beginning, I feel like it was, like, all about beautiful people. I mean, that's how it was in those days. Like, and you just hired these and made. In New York, it was so easy because you had all these models and actresses that were aspiring. So we just hired these great. And the truth is, we were brother and sister. So everybody that came along, they felt like they were part of the Equinox family. So it wasn't even deliberate. It wasn't like, okay, we're gonna create this culture that's gonna make family. It just happened organically because we were family, you know? And then they became family, and before you know it, everybody was like, we're the Knox family, you know, so the culture was just so built on n. Like, we truly loved what we were doing. Like, we wanted this for so long, you know?

Was it hard to work with your brothers? I mean, you grew up. There's always. You know, he punched me when I was six kind of vibe.

I mean, there's always awkward moments, you know, for sure. But I think overall, I mean, first of all, all three of us did something a little bit different, so we weren't, like, with each other every minute of the day. You know, my one brother was, like, doing all the real estate, raising all the money, you know, doing all of that. Like, he was even helping to make sure the vibe was really amazing and sexy and all that. And then the other brother was all about, like, the building and the design and all and that. And then I was really, like, creating the best group fitness program that we could have. And, you know, all the other things, the fitness program. And some of that crossed over for sure, you know, with us, because, like, let's face it, when you're starting a business, you have to wear every hat.

Oh, yeah, totally.

There isn't like, that's not my job description. Everything is your job description.

It's always that way when you start. And then a lot of people never stop doing that, and then they don't grow. And over time, you specialize. And I've seen probably more family businesses fail because of family conflicts than not. So you managed to do that. Like, I had one business where a family member actually tried to steal the business from me. Like, I had to remove two people from my family. Like, they're by blood, but they're no longer considered part of my family. It's. You can divorce, you can choose your family.

Yeah, absolutely.

When I, when I went down the, the lawsuit with that and, and did discovery, this was a premeditated criminal act, you know, based on greed and jealousy and things like that. So, and I've, I've heard so many entrepreneurs say this. So you guys somehow managed to do that. So you. Did you decide ahead of time, like, you know, here's what our, our kind of division of labor is so that you'd have some kind of.

No, it was so, it was all just.

You had a really strong family and it worked.

We had amazing work ethic. We really did. And I feel like there was just no ego, you know, like, there wasn't an ego. We all like, the focus was on how do we make this so special. Like, we wanted to make it that everybody that came into Equinox, that they were just going to be wowed. Wow. This is unbelievable. Wow, that class was awesome. Wow. Like, that was the best workout. Wow. I had the best trainer. We just, that was our focus. And the truth is we were so clear on what our principles were, what our values were that everybody else around us took on that same energy. Like your staff, like, you know, I always tell leaders like, you have to walk the walk, baby. Like, you can't give anything you don't own, so you have to own that. And for us, it was like we own that passion of just truly wanting to create the most amazing place that people wanted to come to. Like, I mean, I can't tell you how many times people would be like, I'm playing hooky from work today because my favorite teacher's teaching at 4:30. I mean, it was like amazing. You're just like, wow, I can't believe that. Because in the beginning, working out was like a four letter word. I gotta work out. Like, I gotta do it. Like, there was no joy, there was no excitement, there was no, like, let me go and play hooky to go and work out. Like when you see that you're changing people's lives like that. And for me, movement was always medicine to me. I started moving at five as a dancer so that I always found my back to my alignment, back to my balance from moving. And I always wanted everyone to have that. And I was always kind of shocked growing up that a lot of girls didn't want to move like that. Like, I always wanted to climb the tree and play hopscotch and play jump. You know, jump rope, like, movement was just. That was my joy. And it was like, how do you take those same elements as a kid?

Like, you don't.

You're not, as a young person, you're like, I'm gonna go outside and burn a thousand calories today jumping rope. You don't do that. You're like, I'm going out to play.

Right.

And it was that joy of just playing and moving and being on the, on the swings and being on the bars. And like, that was the energy that we wanted to bring into the gym. That same energy of fun and really making people get excited, like overly excited. I mean, you see how passionate I get.

Oh, yeah, totally. You light up when you talk about it.

I know. It's like, amazing.

There's today $400 million of ghost gem memberships every year. I found that out when I was doing the research for the Upgrade Labs fundraising deck, which is different, very different than Equinox or other things that are kind of out there. But I just realized, so there's people, and I don't think those are mostly Equinox memberships. That's a higher end thing.

Yeah, that just don't come.

Yeah, there's a lot of people who sort of want to, but don't. What are we going to do for the people who recognize I probably ought to and I buy it, but they don't find it fun or they're not getting value for $12 a month or whatever they're spending at some of these lower end places. What's the solution to bring joy back into our movement? Practice.

Just into life, you know, first of all, I think you have to know who you are. I think very often I'll just use the analogy of an animal. Like somebody is a turtle, but they're going to train like they're a lion. Like, they're never going to find joy in that because they have to just honor, this is how I move. This is what happens, especially in the beginning. This is my natural rhythm. Then you build on there. So once you connect to that natural rhythm of who you are, the way your body just naturally wants to move, or maybe how it doesn't want to move. And then we find some ways to find that. And then before you know it, you start moving in a way and you're like, oh, that's not so bad. Like today I taught a class Move Joy. And one of the girls told her girlfriend afterwards, she goes, you know, I hate cardio. I hate cardio. She said, and I loved everything about that. And I was sweating, and she had my heart going. I'm aware that my sweet spot is the people that don't move. And maybe because I've been a dancer since I'm 5 and I had to teach dance to be part of this professional group by the time I was 14, I feel like. Like I'm really good at taking people who have two left feet and get you to move. And because of that, I started cultivating a way where I can find ways to teach people how to have the joy of movement. So that's what I would say is when you go to a class, like, say, okay, look at the schedules and go in and speak to, like, the group fitness director and find out exactly what kind of classes are there and try to. To find the class that sounds like your movement style might really work. You just can't pop into any class. You pop into a hiit class, you're gonna loathe it. It's gonna be horrific. I mean, I have classes that I won't go into, and I'm an avid mover because I know I'm gonna not enjoy it. And I wanna come back the next day. I wanna feel good. Like I'm. Listen, I'm 63 years old. It's not about looking, it's not about being ripped. I. Thankfully, I'm out of that stage. I went through that when I was very young and had to make sure my body fat never got over 16%. Thank God I'm done with that. I'm at a stage in my life where I wanna wake up and just feel good. I wanna feel really, really good. That's important to me, and my movement is part of that. How do I stay in that zone now? I do. I mountain bike. I do other things that I find joy in that. And I'm probably one of the only women that love going uphill. And I do not ride on an electric bike.

So you're a masochist. Cut it.

But I love it. It's like, it took me a while to get there.

Okay.

You know, like, it took me a

while, but eating kale, it tastes like crap. But you just learn to tell yourself you like it. Is it like that?

You know, I do a lot of mindset work as well, so I do have that way of being able to go there. But that is. I just think you have to know who you are and know where you're going to find joy in that movement. And don't be afraid to ask. When you go into a gym and sit down and say I would like to have a meeting with the group fitness manager and really find the right class for me. And you may have to try a few classes.

I've said the same thing. Even for yoga. I mean, there's so many flavors of yoga. And I talk about this sometimes. A lot of listeners don't know, but I've spent years doing yoga and my favorite type is called anusara, which is not that common anymore. It was actually the most fun yoga. But within that there's ayengar and anusara and there's all these different forms. And if you're saying, I want to start yoga, I don't know what to do. It was just me. I walked home, I don't know what's going on. And so I tried a bunch of different ones to find the one that worked for me.

I would also like to say though that I think I remember his class and it was very user friendly.

That was why I liked it. Yeah.

And that's why people liked it. It was a user friendly class. And I think sometimes these instructors, there's only 1% that are really yoginis, like, hello, like, we need to cater to the others. Like, yes, there should be an advanced class, but like, most of these classes should not have handstands and all this stuff in it because we are, we are alienating all of these people. We are intimidating them. They're not going to want and more importantly, they're going to get injured.

That is true. I probably had a couple yoga injuries along the years there, but I deserved all of them because I was going to classes more advanced than I should have until I could do all the advanced poses. In fact, I was doing crow pose kicking back to plank, which is relatively nice.

That's amazing.

But I stubbed my toe. Okay, stub your toe. What the heck? Well, it was such a bad stub that the toe started fusing and I had to have a joint correction years later because I didn't treat it well. But you can do stuff like that. But okay. The fact that I could do crow pose at all was awesome. And then the kickback thing is one of those things that's like, ooh, fancy. And I actually could still do that to this day. I'm just a little bit more careful because I realized injuries aren't what you want. You don't have to do the full twist. But the point here is you can go to an equinox and you guys were, as far as I know, the first health club that really had quality yoga instructors in It. I've had some yoga instructors on the show, and I find the fusion of being able to get whatever you need to do in one place really interesting. So you're the person who drove that, which is kind of cool. I guess it was just that you're like, I don't feel good at the normal weight places. And you wanted to have access to weights. You wanted to do group fitness that wasn't grungy, and then you wanted access to yoga. So you kind of stacked all this stuff up.

I think also, it was about building community.

Okay.

Before people even talked about community. I really feel like that was a big superpower of what we did. Like, and possibly it also happened organically because we were three siblings, and we were greeting everybody when they came in. And you know who. You know, my one brother, maybe the group of friends that he attracted would be different than the group of friends I would attract, because everybody's got their own vibe and their own thing, and we would introduce everybody to everyone. So it became a very social. I mean, I can't tell you how many, you know, relationships, Marriages were made there, including our own. Like, you know, it was just a place where, you know, people would say, I live on the Upper west side, and I used to go to Citarella for this, and I would go to the west side Market for that, and I would go here. But he would never know anyone. Like, I never knew anybody. I'd go to Isabella's to eat, and they're like, now Equinox came in. And now wherever I go, it's like my whole community and neighborhood completely transformed.

Wow.

And, you know. Cause New York's not usually like that. Like, unless you have kids in school, you know, that go to the school. So there was such magic in that that it really became this community and people just knew each other. It was really unbelievable. That was definitely part of the magic.

When did you step out? I've actually met with Harvey at Equinox headquarters, and just amazing human being.

We hired a Harvey.

You did? Okay.

Yeah, we hired.

How long ago? Like, when did you know you were ready for Harvest?

Okay, first of all, I want you. I'm, like, terrible with these dates. So we. I remember first, like, five years in, some people started talking to us, you know, like, so it must have been

about big, mean VC types.

Yeah, well, no, it was like, people that owned hotels. Some even owned some more gyms. Like, maybe we could, you know, do something together. And so they kind of put it in our head, like, that was even a possibility. But we didn't do anything. And then when we thought it was kind of closer, that's when we were like, you know, we really. Cause we were really doing everything. I mean, we had directors and people under us, but, you know, we didn't have. We. We didn't have a CEO. We didn't have a CEO, we didn't have a cfo. Like, we were just doing it all. Like, you know, my brother was taking care of all the. The. The finance stuff for sure, and I was taking care of all the, you know, creating, you know, creating new stuff. You know, we created a wellness center and we created a Medispa, and we created spas, and we created, you know, the Equinox Fitness Training Institute. Because there wasn't really even great training in those days. Like, you didn't even have to be a certified trainer. Like, you know, and the certified training that they had was so lame. I mean, it wasn't really very good. So we realized, ah, we're gonna have to buckle down and do this ourselves. So, you know, there were just so many. It wasn't just that we were building a clubs. The next club and next club and next club. Like, that was. When I look back, like, that would have been the easy thing. Like just another club open another club. It was all the other stuff that we were creating, you know, like, we were the first wellness center ever in New York City. I mean, people. Honestly, I got hate mail from people saying, I can't believe you're involved in this quackery.

Oh, I love getting emails like that.

But, you know, this was. We opened that up in 1997.

Wow.

You know, where we had acupuncture, Reiki, rolfing, chiropractic, iridology. We were even trying to figure out how to put in colonics. Like, we were just so ahead of

our time, trying everything to see what would stick. Right.

Yeah.

You know, it kind of feels like the upgrade labs story in Santa Monica, you know? Right. Right by, I guess, half a block away from Gold's Gym under Arnold's.

Yeah, I know where you are.

Yeah. And just like, let's see what sticks. And it's. It took a long time to figure out what would stick before I would scale it. And it's neat to hear your story about how you did this because there's a sense of. I don't know, but it's a sense of wonder in the community building. If you could go back and tell yourself your younger self something when you were starting it, knowing what, you know now, what advice Would you have for yourself?

The advice I would give myself is I was always proving my worth.

To who?

You know, even to myself and to everyone else as a woman in business, trying to be, you know, not trying, but a third partner as a woman, especially also being a woman that, you know, I had a baby the second year that we opened Equinox.

That's a lot of work.

And I also had a situation where, you know, I'm not sure if the. My partners thought that was such a great thing, you know, so it was like, I have to prove that I am worthy of being a third part. I'm going to. And the truth is, like, I just felt like I had to work harder to prove that I could be a good mom and I could be carrying my weight. And, like, it was tough, like, even emotionally on myself. Like, when I look back now, it was tough. Like, I just beat myself up, you

know, I know a lot of women with. With grown children now who are kind of angry about this. Like, you know, it was a bit of a story that I could have this great career and be a great mom, because kind of takes a lot of energy to do either one of those. So they felt like they were always overextended, they were always juggling, always giving up their own health and things like that.

Yeah.

I hope that we can. We can prioritize motherhood a little bit more in the current generation, because it's. It's kind of a special time, and only women can do that and to make space for that. And so we also can have a good career and you can also have time for it. But it does require just. Just recognizing the value of having kids as well as about.

Well, it was also a time where it's like, no, women don't need to be an equal partner. They could be a 10% partner and be happy with that.

Wow.

You know, like, there's an energy that went on in those days. I mean, it's no different than what happens in Hollywood now. The leading man's making a certain amount. The woman's making less. Like, it's still there. Okay, it's still there. But then nobody was talking about it. So as women, we just had to hold that in. There was no container to let that fly. Right. So you just had to hold it in, and you had to just keep proving, proving, proving.

So what would you have told yourself now that you know how things are?

I know I would have told myself, girl, like, you're magic. Like, you. You are magic. Like, just show up and be you and relax and don't think about what anyone else is thinking about. Just you do you, you do your best. Like, my best was already a lot. Like, I just put a lot of. I still do. Like, I have a work stock, I have a great work ethic. So it was just like, just celebrate that.

You know, the women I know now, the friends who are having babies right now, I am sensing more of a balance there. And all new moms are struggling with this going. I didn't realize it was going to be energetically this much work. And like, how do I balance my company, how do I balance my job? But it, it feels like there's more balance today than there used to be and maybe things are getting better.

Yeah.

Do you feel like that's happening as well? Do you see that?

I do. I definitely. I mean, first of all, people talk about work, life balance. I mean, like, you know, and there's a part of me that, like, as a founder, if you're a founder, it's

unbalanced to be a founder.

That's how I feel, David. Honestly, you have to be unbalanced. When people say to me, work, life, balance, I'm thinking, oh, this is my life.

It's not.

I'm not so sure that, like, being an entrepreneur is for you, because being an entrepreneur is so hard. I know somehow it's been like, it's become glamorous and everybody wants to be an entrepreneur and a founder, but like, no, I'm just saying to myself, it is the hardest. You work 24 7. I mean, I remember sleeping with a little tape recorder. So when I wake up with an idea, I didn't want to lose it, and I'd be like, oh, tape recording it. I mean, you never stop.

It's frenetic when you're starting. One of the more powerful interviews I've seen was with the founder of Nvidia, the chip making company.

Oh, yeah.

They're, you know, one of the most successful, most valued companies on the planet. And they asked him the same question. Well, if you go back and tell yourself when you're 19 about what to do, he would say, my advice would be, don't do it. Yeah, it's not worth it. Like, the amount of suffering you will have to build a big company is unimaginable. And I think he's probably right. No one who hasn't built something big understands just the amount of, of struggle and suffering and worry and just all the bad stuff that comes your way because you're succeeding. And I think women get it more. I mean, it's been said before that, you know, the glass ceiling is probably constructed as much by women as it is by men, right? And so it may be even harder for women entrepreneurs. I don't know. I'm not one, but whatever it is, it is like all in energy. And I started Bulletproof when I had a one year old and a three year old, right? And man, to make sure that the ends meet for the family and to start a company. It's scary. Even though you have community and a mission.

No, I remember there were, there were months where we weren't taking paychecks. And I remember being like, going to the controller and like, I can't barter my rent because we were bartering everything, right? I'm like, I can't barter my rent. Like, we have to pay, you know, like. So, yeah, you know, it's definitely a sacrifice. And I will say this. I invest now in different, you know, entrepreneurs and different products. I very rarely will ever invest when there's one founder, very rarely two, minimum, three, or in my zone, because I know what it takes. Like, I really. And I know there are certain things you can't buy. You have to be in it to be doing what needs to be done. It's not. You can't just pay somebody a paycheck to do that. And it isn't for everyone. And especially, like sometimes I'll sit down and I'll talk to women. I've mentored women for a while, and there was one woman in particular, super smart. She had her master's and she had children. And it was really like, I'd listened to her and she's like, oh, yeah, I wanna go to the and read at the school and I want to be able to go and do the party. And I would just kind of listen to the theme of what she was talking about and then her job, and then she got promoted. And I said to her at one point, like, okay, what's the three year? What's the five year? And she's like, CEO. And I was not expecting that. And she was. I must have had this horrified look on my face, like, really? CEO? And she was like, yeah, I want to be CEO. And I was just like, can we talk a little bit about what it takes to be a CEO? Like a real CEO? And I said, you have the brains, no doubt, but I listen to you on all you want to do with your kids. I said, first of all, to get there, these CEOs, they're starting their day getting up 5 o', clock, 4 o', clock, 4:30. Getting their workout in reading. Getting their reading to see what's going on in the world. Emails. Depending on what's going on, they're at their first breakfast meeting at quarter to seven, you know, and then they're at a breakfast and they're at a dinner, you know, and then they're flying somewhere to give a talk and then they're, you know, I'm like, that is, I don't see that for you. And she's like, but that's not me. And I said, dear, but that's what it's going to take to be CEO. Sometimes I feel like I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but I'm a truth dealer. I'm going to deal you the truth.

Yeah, I discourage people who aren't entrepreneurs from being entrepreneurs too. I built Bulletproof before I was removed into a hundred million dollar plus company while living on a farm that we built on Vancouver Island. But I traveled at least 50% of the time, which is brutal on you. Biologically, my travel schedule was much worse because I lived on an island, which meant it took me nine hours to get to la, even though there's only three and a half hours of air travel because of borders and all this nonsense. So I did manage to make myself younger and leaner during that time, But I spent $2 million doing it.

Yeah.

And I had breakfast and dinner and lunch actually with my kids every time I was home, which probably more than most CEOs, but the amount of absolute nothing else in my life. But that was probably not great in the overall scheme of things. But you have a cause and a mission. And if both my wife at the time and I had both been doing that, there's no way we could have had kids. Just it wouldn't have worked. And I recognize that. So I'm grateful that she was there. And she also worked on her own stuff around fertility, but not full time because we couldn't do it, know how to do that. So hats off to, especially when you have both people working really hard, whether it's entrepreneurship or not. But I will say the CEO is the loneliest job. It's the hardest job and people don't know it until they've tried it. It's rough. You get it.

And getting there, the road to being a CEO, even that, especially if it's more in a corporate, it's daunting and it's not for everyone. And I think it's like anything like When I said to you before, you have to know who you are, that's why I think doing inner work is so important, because you get so clear, and that clarity is so liberating.

Let's talk about how your path and the inner work you've done, and maybe we'll share some stories about that. I want to talk about what you've done to be able to do that, and then also how that led you into movejoy, because you have this unique, somatic perspective on things. And I've been talking more and more about somatics over the last couple of years in the biohacking movement. Somatics being, if you're new to the world, you haven't heard this, like, the felt sense of what's going on inside your body, because that's really where intuition lies.

Yeah.

So how did you get into this inner work? What did you do? What do you do? And how did that move you to move Joy?

So, first of all, we were open. Equinox had been open, I think, about two and a half years. And I jumped out of bed. It was Sunday morning because we work seven days a week. I jumped out of bed, and I landed flat on my face.

Ooh, that's a problem.

Yeah. Broke my cheekbone. Thank God my sister was sleeping on my cat. Arianna Huffington, it's such a similar story. My sister's sleeping there. She says to me she heard this thump. I'm like, what happened? What happened? She guys jump out of bed, end up at Lenox Hill Hospital, and the guy's like, I mean, you know, I was in the best shape of my life. I, you know, great shape. Working a couple hours a day and, you know, go to early in the morning, work out at night. And he goes, I think you just need to learn how to relax. Like, you're under stressed. You're. You're stressed. And I'm thinking, like, I can't be stressed. I run it out, I dance it out, I lift it out. Like, I really thought in that time, you know, I was probably, like, 13. I thought that if you were fit, you were healthy.

Yeah, a lot of people, I did, too. A lot of people think that.

I thought, like, how could this be? I am so healthy. And then I realized at that moment, well, you can be really fit and unhealthy. So I took about a year and a half, even though we had Equinox, and I kind of was like, figuring out, whoa, what does it really mean to be healthy? And through that journey, thankfully, because we had so many Amazing members and members that were a bit older than me. People had contacts for me. So who sent me down to get acupuncture with Dr. Ning and somebody took me to Siddha Yoga and I went and started meditation. And I'll be honest, like, I sat there and I thought, but there's no way. Like I went to a weekend course of meditation. And I just. But the gentleman that brought me, I loved his energy. Like, there was just something so peaceful. Like I could feel like I just would. He would take me to another level of relaxation. And I felt like I wanted that. I knew that he had something that I wanted.

I.

So I kept going back and then I said, oh, because this is how it always wanted Equinox. We're going to bring meditation to Equinox. And then before you know it, I started bringing meditation classes to Equinox. I brought this guy Mickey Descend. He was amazing. And he was also a hypnotherapist. So I started doing some hypnotherapy with Mickey. And then someone takes me down to Chinatown to do acupuncture. And I swear to God, it was like down in the basement underneath a restaurant.

Not a great place. For meditation.

No, for acupuncture.

Oh, wow.

He doesn't speak any English. He's a third generation from China. And I'm thinking, he gives me these herbs to cook. I cook these herbs up, my neighbors come knocking on the door because they swear that I have dead rats in my.

So bad.

No, it was like horrible. Like, you would get off the elevator and people like, they'd be following it and then they're knocking on my door. They're like, lavinia, what's dead in your apartment? I was like, no, it's Chinese herbs. They're like, you gotta stop. But I was, okay. So I'm kind of doing that and then I'm doing the little meditation. I had to bring everything to Equinox because I couldn't leave. You know, we were so busy. And that was actually the beginning of creating the Equinox Wellness Center. So like my breakdown created this wonderful breakthrough of creating this wellness center. So through that I ended up meeting an amazing woman who took me to meet a new guru at the time that was coming in from India and I went on his year long program of meditation. I mean, that was the beginning of like my first time ever hearing the word manifestation transformation. So I did his yearlo program. I was even able to go to India and do a pilgrimage with him, which was pretty amazing. Yeah. And Then from that, it just went into personal development. I started doing Landmark. And then from Landmark, I did the entire curriculum. Even went on to be, like. To be certified to be a forum leader. Not that I ever used it, but it was all for my own self. I did a lot of Indian sweat lodges.

I mean, you've done the whole path,

I've done the whole thing.

Similar stuff. I'm not a landmark.

And I love. The truth of it is all of that is just what brings me. I love it to this day. Like, somebody invites me to something, I'm in. I'm like, yeah, let's go. See, I have nothing to lose, right? And the thing that's so beautiful from everything is you find a few things from it that feel right for you. Like, I'm like, oh. So that's kind of how I create, like. Like, my day is filled with, like. I call them the Lavinia rituals. From the minute I wake up in the morning until the minute I go to bed, I just have all these rituals. And I love the word ritual. There's something about ritualistic that just doesn't feel like habits. Like, habit just is a heavy word for me.

Yeah.

Oh, I gotta have a habit, right?

I gotta have smoking habit, heroin habit, you know?

Yeah. Like, but my rituals just feel so good. So it's really from doing all of that. Like, I don't think there's anything I've ever done that I didn't take away a couple things and integrate. Because I also. I'm the queen of integration. Like, okay, now how am I gonna integrate this? What am I integrating? What feels right for me at this point in my life right now. What do I need? And, you know, I also believe, like, I remain a student of life, and I believe that's what keeps me youthful and it keeps me young. And it's probably one of my best, like, biohacking, is that I stay curious and I stay curious. I stay full of enthusiasm. Like, I never get jaded. Like, I'm never one of these people. Like, oh. Like, I've done so much. I don't. Like, I'm like, tell me, how did it work for you? What was it? Tell me more. Like, that's how I keep growing and learning and just feeling really good, you know,

the idea of being curious is so important because if you're feeling afraid of something, the antidote to fear is curiosity. So you. You really can't be afraid when you go, huh? What is that?

Right?

And it's a very strong mental shift. So a Lot of people talk about personal development and they don't know it, but it triggers unconscious and almost invisible fear and then leads to procrastination or just never called the guy back. And you just sort of go a different direction and you don't know that's your body going, please don't look there, Please don't look. There's what you might find. But then if you're just curious about it, all of a sudden, okay, maybe it's full of crap, maybe it's not. And I was very skeptical when I started on this path, and I was like, oh, maybe I was wrong. And now I've studied lots of different things in the Himalayas and Andes and all over the place. And I do. 40 years of Zen is my. My neurofeedback kind of digital mystery school where I spent six months with electrodes on my head meditating, figuring out what's going on in there. And. And I teach people to do it because I feel like the more of an executive you are, the more of an entrepreneur you are, the more you're responsible for your state because people rely on you. That's the thing about being a CEO or a parent. If you're a parent, you're going to have to feed your kids and take care of them. And if you're a CEO and you have hundreds of employees, and I've been there, you're paying them, you have to make payroll every month, otherwise they don't eat, and their kids don't eat either. So the amount of pressure goes up, which means your amount of personal development has to go up with it.

Exactly.

Otherwise you just get really, really stressed. So that.

And stuck. Yeah, like, you get stuck. Like, nothing's worse than, like, when you're just, like, you can't figure it out. Like, you can't solve the problem, you can't create, you can't innovate. Like, that is just a horrible feeling when you know that part of growing and making more money is you just have to. You have to be in more innovation. There has to be more creativity. There has to be, like, what's. How are we going to create this in a better, yummier? How are we going to bring in people that have never been in here before? How are we going to make sure we're retaining all the people that we have? We have to create more things so they don't get bored. Like, it's that the way everything works, you know? And if you are stale and you're stuck, how are you going to create?

You Won't your creativity will go away.

Yeah.

And this is why also a lot of big companies, they, they try to buy companies who can innovate because they can't do it. Because everyone gets stuck when it's a big company. Forbes named Bulletproof one of the top 20 most innovative brands, at least in the U.S. when I was running it, because I maybe over indexed on that and then under indexed on other non operational things, which I found was a problem. If you're the voice of your company, that's a full time job and being CEO of a company is a full time job.

Right, right.

And so it becomes, at least for me, a juggling match between those two. You know, how many interviews can you do and then how many operational reviews can you do? But you end up building a team.

You know, I think it's interesting that you say that because we didn't have that at Equinox because of the time, you know, and so yes, we did a lot of press. I mean we were, I mean there were months where we were in 40 different publications and stuff. But that's a lot different.

Press was different. It's just an interview.

Exactly. So our energy was just always on Equinox. It was never on us. Like, even as the face, it wasn't because other than like once in a while doing tv, you weren't the face. The face was Equinox. And I feel like in some way I like it that way. Like even now doing with movejoy, when someone said to me, well, are you the face of it? And I'm like, hmm, moveJoy will have. Will be the face of it. I will be the creator and I will speak about it, but truly all the focus and everything will be. And maybe that's just because that's how I'm comfortable. I'm not as comfortable being the face of anything. Like, I'm more comfortable in what I'm creating. The principles, the value, how we're gonna change people. It's not about me. Like, I'm like, more like, you know, if my story, because I'm very open, being vulnerable, if my story, in being messy and being broken at times and being at the bottom of that snake pit and how I got back up. If that story is going to inspire other people to go, wow, if she can do it, I can do it, like, then I will share that story, but it will still never be about me. It will be about the program, the company. You know, that's just a little bit of my, how I, I feel about

that, you know, I, I appreciate that perspective and it's, it's hard to do it in today's world because I, I had no desire to be well known. Right When I was starting Bulletproof. In fact, I was a computer hacker. I value my privacy more than most people, but I was willing to be the face of it, right? So I think you, you navigated that really well. Maybe it was easier before social media.

I think it was easier now.

You guys want to see who I am? You know, I am. Twelve hundred interviews later, you probably have figured out some consistencies and you know, you can smart, you can usually spot BS after 200, so. But as I've come to, you know, I'm learning from you as we speak. And so, you know, to me, lifelong learning is a really big value. You've done something interesting with movejoy, though, which is, is your, your new thing. And you're bringing this kind of unusual concept where gay people don't all live in the same place. And we're building these kind of hyper focused communities that are laid on top of things so people in different areas can work together, but there's still a community and you're doing a lot of somatic experiencing things. Walk me through what you're doing with MoveJoy, because it's very different than anything else I've come across.

So first of all, I'd love to tell you a little bit of how I got there during COVID The beginning of COVID I belonged to a lot of these different women entrepreneur groups. And I would see these women on Zoom, and from one week to the next, I'd be like, wow. I could just feel their life force going. Most of these women were single, living alone in New York City. Powerhouse business women. But we're in a crazy time right now, right? And I'm like, ladies, you've got to move. Like, come on, we've got to move. So I would send them different people they should work out with. Now they were up there anywhere from 50 to in their 70s, and they were like, oh, I don't like. I didn't like that class. I didn't like that class. I didn't like that class. I was trying anything. They weren't really able to be outside the way we were in California. So one of them made the ask. And at first I was thinking like, hello, I'm not an aerobic bunn anymore. I've done that in my 20s, I've graduated. I didn't think I was putting my leotards back on anytime soon. David, that was not my probable future. I have a really great life. I have a big life in Malibu. I have an amazing. Really? But I was like, I'm thinking about it. I'm like, I know I really could give them a really nice class that they would love. So I said, you know what? Give me a week to put it together. We put it together, and it went from like, five people to 10 people to 20 people to 30. You know, it just kept growing and people like, can I ask people to come and. Sure.

And you're doing this over zoom.

All over zoom. And again, everyone's so happy. But the magic was that I was noticing that everybody was getting on, like, 15 minutes before class, start to talk to each other. And I didn't even really know that until one day I got on, like, five minutes early, and I was like, oh, my God, they were all on, and they're talking, and then they're staying on afterwards to chat. And I was like, you know, I'm a friend collector. I collect friends. I collect people. I love people. Like, that's my happiest place. And I think naturally, when you do that, I'm always getting people together. I'm like, I'm fixing everybody up for everything. Like, for play dates with women, for love, for business, for everything. I just love connecting people.

You're kind of a matchmaker, too, huh?

With everything. So that took me by surprise. I wasn't expecting that. And then I saw that. And then I started adding the breath work, because I've been doing breath work for about 15 years. And I kept saying to them, guys, you really need to do some breath work. And first I would put them on sitting, and I'd say, let's sit and do the breath work. Everybody would go off, fall asleep. No, they would leave. They would just shut down. They would just. They would get off. And I'm like, what's going on here? Like, oh, I didn't like that, Lavinia. I didn't like that.

So what kind of breath work? I did Art of Living for five years every day, and I did a lot of holotropic.

So, like, where is this? Like, for instance, we stand up? I mean, depends on the shape of somebody. But for this group now. And it goes. So you'll use your hands, and the first one will be as you're standing.

Okay? Similar Art of Living.

Okay, so. But when people are not used to doing breath work like that, they feel. All of a sudden, they're like, right out of the gate, I have them feeling good. They're like, oh, my God, I feel so good. So now then you take them, like, on the next one, which is, you know, where you loosen up the neck. Or we do a little hops, you know, so they're doing some hopping, and then it's like we open up the neck. The neck cracks a few times, and they're like, oh, my God, it cracked. Like, when I go to my chiropractor, they started realizing that this movement is healing. Like, they're feeling the healing of it. And then we do a little bit, like, where do open the heart and we do this. And then we, you know, where you're really, you know, and I'm in there, like, I want you to breathe, and you could just see breath of joy. And I say, no, if, you know, we all know what are the emotions. That sadness, that trauma, when you let it go, let it go. Feel it right from the gut down. And you can. So by the time they do all this and they come up, you could just see. And then there'll be a point where they just start crying.

Wow. A lot of emotions can come up.

A lot of. I mean, it's always shocking how much we hold. Like, we do this one exercise where we do this and we take a deep breath in and we hold our breath. First of all, you get a little high. I say, yes, we're going to get you a little high on your own supply, for sure. Like, and they love that. But then all of a sudden, like, and then we do a couple of others. We do the bear and we move that. And then you can just see, like, they'll be texting me afterwards. Oh, my God, my shoulders. I didn't realize how much I carry in there. I, like, felt, you know, like, you just. It's really been. And then of course, we do a lot of this to release because we hold so much in here and here, you know, so it's a little. I always call it like the African. So it's like

you're really moving the whole spinal cord for you.

And I tell them that every single organ is connected to your spine. So we're going to move that spine front and back, side and side, twist and twist.

So super embodied. All right.

Exactly. So the movement is very much like that, but then we add a little bit of the cardio. But the cardio is all with breath.

Okay.

You know, they're doing okay.

So it's very gentle, but they're getting the mental and energetic effects.

Yes. And then, you know, we do something where I do this thing Called joy, love, bliss, happiness. Joy, love, bliss, happiness. But they move their feet and their hands. So you're literally working the brain.

Yeah, you're cross patterning the brain. That has all kinds of effects where you're figuring some of that stuff out.

So there's. So this has been built on all of that. So even today when they were struggling, I'm like, guys, it's not about getting it, it's in the process of doing it that the brain is turning on. It doesn't matter if you get in or not, just keep doing it. Say the words. Because we know how to use the words and use the arms and do it. And yeah, it just keeps layering like that. So I always say the movement is simple, but the way I put it together with the breath and the movement and the affirmations, we have a whole series on courage. Because always when you look at from positive to negative, courage is the first step on the positive. And that's because you're going into action. So it's the first step. So if you have courage to face your fear, to face your sadness, to face your grief, whatever it is, it's the first action point. So we have to be in and how great to be able to move to courage. And I say to them, whatever, you know, you need more courage. Listen, I need a courage to start a new brand. Like, trust me, like, you know, you always feel, God, am I going to be, is it going to be successful? And what if it isn't success? There's all this stuff when you're going to. I've been helping other people build their brands and scale their brands, but this is the first time I'm coming out and saying, yeah, I'm going to do this. And I'm doing it really because I see the white space, I see all these people that are not moving. I really want to help get that going.

So when you're doing an online thing like this, like how many people are these like really big now or do you have like smaller groups of people?

No, right now we haven't launched yet. We're just been doing the beta, which has been out of my garage. The studio is being built right now, getting finished and so we should be in the studio by the right after January. So it's been a garage workout and everything, which has been amazing because I think there's even something so fun about that. Like it's real. You know, it's like we went from yesterday to today and it was like. And again, it wasn't to build A brand. It was to really help my friends get out of this funk. And then when you look at like the attorney general says that more people are dying from isolation and loneliness than anything, you're like. And not a lot of people are talking to that demographic. And I know that because I am that demographic. Like I can go into any gym and figure it out because I'm a gym person. I mean, to a degree I'm a gym rat, right. But when I take my friends, I have to hold their hand. It's not comfortable to be of a certain age and walk into these gyms because they're really not. I mean there might be some YMCAs or whatever, but like most of the higher end or you even go to wherever the studios, they're all young. Like you walk in there and there's all these girls in their two piece outfits and their shorts up to here. And nobody's catering to this market. They're really not catering to us. I mean, unless you're catering to us. If you're talking to us about menopause, about supplements, about plastic surgery, about Botox, but you're really not talking to us about fitness because we're not, not inspired to get ripped. We're not inspired to look that way. Like why we want to feel good.

It feels like there's been a big shift in everyone because so many people feel bad now. Everyone wants to feel good. There are so many people in their 20s who are just fully out of energy. And I was that way in my 20s too, where I'm like, oh, that's the most valuable. Sure, abs would be nice or whatever, but I just want to feel good. And for the first time ever in surveys, people have started saying I care more about managing my stress than about losing weight. And this is a major shift. So it's funny. Breath work will do it, Biohacking will do it. Meditation practices. So everyone's realized that the stress and the lack of energy is a thing. And I think it's worse in the US and as you age it gets worse for everyone. And we're seeing an epidemic amongst young people too.

Well, I think there's also an epidemic of anxiety and depression.

Oh yeah.

I mean we are induced. Yeah, for you, you're probably right on that. There's just, I've never heard of so many 8 year olds who are having anxiety.

Like it's unheard of. And I, I say it's government induced because of Bhutan, they have a gross national happiness product. They're the governments organized around that metric and it's not in the U.S. clearly, health is not a goal. If it was, we wouldn't spend so much and get so little. You can see the truth in what people do, not in what they say. It's fascinating to hear what you're up to. And if you're feeling attracted to movejoy, it's movejoy. Life is a thing.

Yes.

Awesome. So, guys, go to movejoy Life if this kind of breath work and somatic practice and movement sounds appealing to you.

And community, because we really are building community.

It's funny, people. Ask Dave, who listens to the Human Upgrade, the podcast. Well, let's see. We've got about 400 million downloads, been following demographics forever, and people from 20 to 80 listen to the show and there's a peak in the 25 to 45, but it's not that strong of a peak.

Wow.

So people of every age and they're saying, oh, biohacking is just for boys. I'm like, sorry, girls. 60% of biohackers are women and always have been. Sometimes it was 52% versus 50. So it turns out that this biohacking thing, it's about humans and it's how do you get your energy back? How do you make your body do what you want? And it doesn't matter if you're like I was as a 300 pound early 20s guy with no energy and brain fog and all the other stuff and arthritis, saying, I just want to feel good and I'd like to continue my entrepreneurial career, or whether you're saying, okay, my kid just left the house, what am I going to do now? It's always the same. I want my body to behave so that then I can work on my emotional stuff. And I want that to behave so I can work on my spiritual stuff. And it's just a human condition for all of us. Which is why I was so happy to have you on, because you've walked this path and you've shared. What is it like to start? What is it like when you're in the middle? What is it like when you've succeeded at your first thing and you're starting a new one? And since I believe we're all going to live a lot longer, yeah, you've

got so many more years. That was what I kind of thought to myself. I said, you know, I think I'm here at least till I'm 100.

That was my next question.

How long do you think you are here at least? So I'm thinking, I have 40 more years. So, you know, what. What am I going to do in those years? Like, what am I going to do if I'm not impacting, if I'm not, like, in it? And I love working with people. Like, I love the people I'm working with and creating with them. And it keeps you young. Like, I can't just be going out to lunch. And I mean, look, I love to hike, I love to mountain bike, but I don't know, I need purpose.

40 years of hiking, mountain biking might get a little bit repetitive.

I know. And then I'm like. And traveling is great. You know, I had couple a great fall. I went to Japan and then Korea and Tanzania, and it was amazing. But, like, I don't want to travel right now. Like, I just. I don't know, I really feel very inspired. And I love feeling inspired at my age. Like, I love that. Not that I think I'm like, so old or anything, but I love feeling inspired to, like, get this going and even going from the beginning, like, before I had a few, you know, a little bit, like, do I really want to do this? It's going to be so much work. What if it's not super successful? And then I just had to let that go. Like, let that shit go. Lavinia and plunge.

Like, I don't really want to get in. Like, I'm so glad I did it. Starting a company is not that different.

Right.

There's always resistance.

Yeah. So, yeah, I really, I'm excited and. And I love, like, where even the surprise of where it could go. Like, because at the end of the day, your community tells you what they want. And I mean, if you connect with them and I really believe it'll be a good connection and they'll tell us what they want. So I'm even, like, so curious, like, where are they going to want to go? Like, how fun is it going to be able to create that stuff for them and what they really like, what they want. Not what I think or we think they want, but, you know, like, I love that. That's exciting to me because before you know it, you're partnering with them. And when you have smart, great people, it's not just like, they're not a bunch of soldiers. It's not just like, I'm the guru and I'm going to tell you, that's never been my way. It's like, we're in partnership here. We connect. There's a connection. You tell me what you want, we see if that works. I love that expression of business as well.

Beautiful. Thank you for coming on the Human Upgrade and sharing the story of equinox. And now moveJoy. It's fascinating to be able to learn because you've built something big and fantastic and just the mindset, and I find it inspiring. And I'm hoping if you're watching the show or listening to the show, you just realize you have no idea where you're going to be in 10 years. No. Nothing at all. You could start something tomorrow and it might get big. It might not get big, but you'll still get the experience of it. So you started something that got big. I started something that got big. I didn't know how big it would get. There was no way to know. Neither did you with Equinox. Right?

Not at all.

Yeah. And with MoveJoy, if it helps a thousand people and you're suddenly like, I'm done. You still have 2,000 people.

Right.

And if it helps a kajillion people, and Tony Robbins is saying, you know, I was going to feed a billion people, but now I saw what Lavinia did and, you know, I want to do that. Okay, then. Awesome. Either one of those is a win.

Yeah.

That's the whole point.

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

That's what feels good. And you listening to this, help the people who need help. It doesn't matter how many of you. Just, if they need it, you're there, you can help, and things work out in the end. That's. That's where I'm sitting today.

That was beautiful. Thank you.

If you like today's episode, you know what to do. I love reviews. You could try some Danger Coffee if you're not already on that stuff. It feels really different and tastes amazing. It's really good coffee. Danger coffee.com and I want you to go to movejoy life if this episode was interesting for you, because you might find there's some breath work you can do that. A different flavor than you've seen before. And if nothing else, if you're an entrepreneur, hopefully this was inspiring. Thanks, Lavinia. You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.

The Human Upgrade, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was created and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended for the purposes of diagnosing, treating, curing, curing, or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider, carefully read all labels and heed all directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information found or received through the podcast should not be used in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem or should you have any healthcare questions, please promptly call or see your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the producers, disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained herein. Opinions of guests are their own and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to herein. This podcast is owned by Bulletproof Media. A Human Upgrade, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was created and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended for the purposes of diagnosing, treating, curing, or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider, carefully, ready all labels, and heed all directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information found or received through the podcast should not be used in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem or should you have any healthcare questions, please promptly call or see your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the producers, disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained herein. Opinions of guests are their own and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to herein. This podcast is owned by Bulletproof Media.