632 -Women Who Plan With Kendra Adachi

Kendra, welcome to the Organized 365 podcast.

Thanks for having me, Lisa. Happy to be here.

I'm super excited to have you on as our very first guest in this new Connections podcast series that we're doing. I have to tell you that I got many, many, many emails from the Organized 365 audience who are on your book launch plan saying you have to have Kendra on the podcast.

Oh, that's fun.

That's so sweet.

I'm so glad. I'm so glad.

Yes. So, you have been, you have been asked for, and we are here to answer, and I'm really looking forward to getting to know you.

Thanks. We'll make the people happy. That's great. I'm happy to be here.

So, I start out any interview with this question: who lives with you in your household? I like to kind of give us a frame of reference for where in the world you are and who's cohabitating with you so we can kind of see, like, how close is that to who's cohabitating with us?

That's right. So with my husband of 20-something years, I don't remember now, low 20s, 22, 23, uh, and we've got 3 kids. Uh, my oldest is a freshman in high school, my middle kid is a 7th grader, and then my youngest is a 3rd grader. So I have 3 kids in 3 schools, uh, which is super fine. And we live in, um, North Carolina in Greensboro, which is where I was born. So this is my home. Like I have such deep roots here. My mom lives down the street. Like, so she doesn't live with us, but she lives down the street. So that's like kind of close. Uh, so yeah, it's— that's where I am. And, uh, it's a, it's a really lovely life in the sense that I, I know that a lot of people love to move around, and sometimes I wish I was a person who loved to go new places and like, let's go on an adventure. Um, but I really do love living in the same place I was born. It's pretty It's pretty special to me.

Yeah, I've always lived in Ohio. I'm now in the southernmost part of Ohio, but I've been here about 30 years. Same. I can't even imagine moving a house.

Like, it's so weird to think about, right? I know, I know. I was gonna say, it sounds like too much work. Like, I mean, I do— even if I didn't love living here, I'd be like, no, I think we're good.

Exactly. Exactly. Okay, so what Organized 365 does, or, you know, I've been doing this for 13 years. I started as a professional organizer, getting people organized, and then I realized, huh, we have, like, zero operational systems in our household. So I created operational systems. But the purpose of getting organized is so that you have more time to do what you're uniquely gifted and created to do. And in researching for this interview, Kendra, your story is just so exciting. And it's evident from childhood all the way until now, like, your uniqueness continues to get more and more and more. As you get older, and it's very visible because we can all see it in your 3 New York Times bestselling books. That is an unbelievable accomplishment. Congratulations.

Thank you. That's very kind.

But can you take us back, like, to being in school and what you thought your uniqueness was? You know, you got married, had kids, like—

Yeah.

What was the origin before The Lazy Genius came to be?

Well, I was all genius. Like, I was— that's really what it was. As I was just like a big old sassy walking genius who felt like she was gonna fall apart on the inside. But it's like, well, we gotta, we gotta act like we know what we're doing here in order to, uh, kind of survive in many ways. So I was like a, uh, kind of a stereotypical good girl as a kid. Like I was, I was always the, the kid that my teacher would put in charge when she had to like leave to go to the bathroom.

Yeah, me too.

You know, like that, that was, that was the vibe. I was the kid who, uh, would like walk new students around the school and would be introduced to the new staff people, uh, in the youth, like in the youth group, like the new adult staff. Like this, you know, Kendra's a— Kendra's a good one. If you've got any questions, ask Kendra. Like, I was the valedictorian in my senior class. I was voted most dependable by my senior class. So I was highly like, okay, we're gonna do things Super, super well. But, but what happened is, I would only do things I knew I could thrive at, that I could succeed at. And so I didn't try new things. I was like, pretty— I was tightly wound. I was really judgmental. Because I was working so hard. I was working so hard to be good at life, to do things the way I thought that they were supposed to be done and to meet other people's expectations. And it just wore— Me out. It wore me out. But I, I didn't really like, um, cop to that. I didn't acknowledge that that was happening until I had my first kid. And then I was like, oh man, this is making a plan and seeing it through. Exactly. This isn't happening.

That's gone. Yeah.

This is a farce. How stupid. So I like tried, I tried to be I tried to continue being a genius with my first kid, and then I had my second kid 2 years later, and, and that's when I swung to the other side, and I was like, all lazy, don't care, whatever. We can't do anything right, so we might as well not try any of it. And what's wild is that was, that was just as unfulfilling to me. That was just as unsustainable as trying so hard at everything, was being like, ah, whatever, I give up. Because there's a lot of things I did care about, you know, like I did want to have certain things to be true about my life. I did want to put time and energy into certain things. And so that's kind of the, the, like, philosophical origin story of the lazy genius thinking is that you don't have to choose one or the other. You don't have to be amazing at everything. You don't have to try hard. You also— it's not like your only options are not boss babe, Or hot mess. Those are not your only 2 options. There's such a wide middle between those 2 things. And so that's what my work has been for the last 8 or 9 years is just creating that wide middle permission for people.

Okay. I love that. And that's such an excellent example about the lazy genius.

Be—

now I won't say it correctly. Be excellent at the things that matter and lazy at the things that don't. Is that right?

Be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't. That's right.

Such a great catchphrase. And that is obviously your uniqueness, and it is what you bring to the marketplace. However, before you came to that was the conclusion, during those years as you were trying to be the genius and then trying to be the lazy, you had other uniquenesses that inform how The Lazy Genius is in the marketplace. Like, The Lazy Genius isn't a research center. It's not a government initiative. Like, it's an entrepreneurial podcasting and writing company. So talk about, um, your writing history as well.

Yeah. Well, I, I've always loved writing. I've loved reading is really what it, how it started. I think I've, I've always been a big reader and, um, and enjoyed, enjoyed writing as a kid. When I went to college, well, actually in high school, I had a couple of really excellent English teachers that just kind of brought words to life, brought stories to life. It's just like, oh man, this is great. And I was gonna go to school to be an English teacher, that, that was gonna be my career. And, um, But I also then realized that like not every student in my high school English classroom would be like me. Like they wouldn't all care the same way that I did. And so I went, oh wait, this may be a bad idea.

That's not true.

I don't know that I've got enough love for like general youths in order to sustain this kind of job for a long time. So I just, I was an English education major in college. And then when I realized that, I dropped the education part and I just got an English degree. But anyway, all that to say, I did have a lot of people who brought writing to life, but I do think I had like a natural kind of bent toward it and then loved learning how to make it better. And I had some beautiful— there was one professor in college who was really harsh, like really tough, tough to impress. And I remember doing like my final paper that semester, And I got my marks back and she had the note. She said, you're a really excellent writer. And I was like, oh my gosh. Like, it really, it was, it was like a galvanizing thing that this person who, um, yeah, like her opinion mattered to me so much. And so I think that, I mean, I remember that as like a formative moment of someone who was an incredible writer and who'd seen so much writing say, you're a really good writer. And, um, so yeah, I, I've always kind of been around words. So I did, like, coming out of college, I did a— I was a copy editor, you know, I did like lots of things with words and writing and, and then decided reluctantly, reluctantly decided because I thought, no one cares about what I have to say. You know, as we all do when we're starting something new on whatever scale, it's just hard to believe that what you have to say is going to be interesting to anyone. So I did reluctantly decide to start the business in many ways. I was timid about it because like I said before, I don't, I did not historically start things I didn't know that I could be amazing at. I didn't know. And I also thought that being amazing at it—

Oh, I love it.

Was the, that was the only rubric too. That was the only measurement. And that's not true. You know, like you don't have to be amazing at everything that you do. Like that's kind of a myth anyway. It's too much pressure. So all that to say, I did start The Lazy Genius and thought, okay, here we go. We're gonna speak and we're gonna write. And, uh, and we'll see if anybody resonates with this. And it turns out they did and, uh, and continue to. So it's a real privilege to keep talking about this.

So when did you start The Lazy Genius and did you start it as a podcast to begin with or a blog? How did you start?

Yeah, it started in 2015. Uh, it was actually going to be something completely different. I was actually gonna start this business with 2 other friends and it was almost like a lifestyle Type blog because they're both super creative, and I was going to be kind of the writing voice behind it. And then I got pregnant by surprise and was like, oh, because my my boys were about to be both in elementary school, so they were going to be out of the house for like many hours a day. I was about to enter this new season of life in theory, and then I got pregnant with Annie, and I was like, oh my goodness gracious, we gotta pivot. And so. I just, I pivoted to doing it myself and it started out as just writing. Yeah, it was a blog at first and Instagram was kind of picking up right around then. So I was kind of, you know, like microblogging too in the beginning. And then it was about less than a year in before I started the podcast. And then that's kind of when the message just really galvanized for me and started to take off.

So 2015, you're about to hit a 10-year anniversary or you already have.

I know, I guess so, because the— yeah, I guess I started it because my daughter was born. Hold on, I have to think about this. My daughter was born, yeah, in 2016, and I started at the fall before she was born. So yeah, this is 10 years. Thanks for the reminder. I didn't even know.

Yeah. Okay. So, you know, 9 months from now you have to have a big party. So my 10-year anniversary also, the team came to me, they're like, so it's going to be 10 years, we're going to have a party. And this is like 90 days before. I was like, it is? Like, you don't— you just keep going. You don't realize you're going to hit any milestones.

I know.

So, um, so yeah, just there's a heads up about 9 months from now. You need to have like a big, hey, score anniversary.

That's good to remember.

Yes. All right. And then you started the podcast. So what I found from podcasting personally, and then you could tell me yourself, look, she's writing her note. You guys, she's writing it down.

I am.

I'm— we always say to write everything down.

I just wrote down 10th anniversary party. Yeah, because I will forget. I will forget.

Um, that's so awesome. So Organized 365, we have you write down everything. I'm in the process of getting my PhD actually, and we're doing research and I should have it by December 2025. So I believe that our systems externalize our working memory, which is what you just did. You wrote that down so you could stay present and mindful inside of this podcast, but yet you won't lose the information.

Right.

And then also it's off of your mind and you'll make sure that you'll get that done. And so you don't have to, you don't have that cognitive load. That's what I think is what we do. When we have systems that work. I haven't been able to prove it through science yet, but I will. Just give me time. So anyway, that's why it's such a big deal that you wrote it down, Kendra, because you're just supporting everything that I said. There you go.

You're welcome.

Thank you so much. Hashtag not planned. Okay, podcasting. So I've been podcasting 10 years. You've been podcasting about 8 and a half or so, I guess. Yeah. Long time, right? Isn't it fun? I love it.

It is fun.

Yeah. I love it. For me, I found that podcasting, because I'm a verbal processor, really helps me articulate my ideas. And then obviously I get feedback from the community, and then I keep iterating, iterating, iterating. How about for you?

Oh, it's exactly— that's exactly it. Um, I, I'm a solo show. At first it started out as an interview show because it was— it's kind of back to that, like, nobody is going to listen to just me, you know? I don't have enough to say on my own for people to listen. And so the first 10 episodes were interview episodes, but As you know, doing interviews sometimes, it's like, it's a lot of work to do interviews. There's a lot of logistics ahead of time. The editing process is different. And so I've been a solo show pretty much the whole time. And the same is true of me. I, when I'm working out, when I'm breaking an episode and I'm figuring out what is this thing like, I know that there's an answer here. I know that there is some sort of perspective or reframe or permission that I can give here, and I feel it intuitively in my body, but I haven't said it out loud yet. And so I kind of— that's part of my process is working out what that is. You can find me in my office by myself talking out loud.

Yes, right.

Because I have to like say it to find it, and then I go, oh yeah, there it is, that's what it is, cool. And then I write it down, and then I make an episode about it. Like, it's— it is kind of strange, uh, but also a lot of people are like that, you know, they're like both of us in that way that it's like I spoken out loud. So the, the podcast is— has really been lovely. And like you said, it's this really beautiful feedback loop of me articulating ideas that I feel like matter and then receiving the confirmation either way from the people listening that it does, that it's working and it's helpful. So it's a— it's pretty fun.

Yeah, and I agree. Um, I always started my podcast as well as a solo show on Fridays. So for over 10 years on Fridays, the episode has just been me. And then 6 years ago, I added in the Wednesday, which is an interview with, um, someone in our community. And now we have every other Monday, which is a connect. Honestly, I just wanna have like a radio station where I'm like on every day.

It's like you need like a daily show.

I'm a little over the top on the goals thing. Plus I'm outta the active parenting years. And let me just tell you how much time you have when you get there. You can get a PhD. It's all I have to say. And then you can like basically start a radio That's incredible. It's great. Um, I also think so. I write books as well, and books are awesome because they like kind of cement in time your thoughts at that time. But what I love about a content podcast is it's continually iterative and you keep refining. Um, the team came to me the other day and they said, yeah, we're waiting for you to run out of ideas. I'm like, I already have like 100 more in a slash bucket. Like, I have, I have so many ideas for podcasts. I'm not going to run out of ideas. Are you?

Uh, I sometimes I'm afraid I am. I'm not quite as confident about the, uh, but I, but I also, I'm like, no, I don't think so. Part of the thing that's so great about podcasts as well, and, and I imagine as people listening, I know I feel this way as a listener, like it's really nice to have, be reminded of things, you know, like you might've listened to an episode, like, uh, you know, I will, I will do my first episode about laundry. It was like 6 years ago.

Yeah.

And things shift, you know, like you're— when you have little tiny babies, that's when I did my first one, was when my kids were little and they were so gross and I was washing clothes all the time and I had to figure out, like, I'm drowning. It's like the season of literally drowning in laundry. Well, now my episode might be a little bit more, um, incorporating— I got teenagers now and I'm trying to teach them how to do their own thing. And how can we do that without losing our minds? And, you know, like, things shift, like our lives, as our seasons of life shift, how we handle the tasks and responsibilities within them will also shift. And so, as my life is changing, my perspective on things will shift. And so, it's always nice to— that's never going to end, right? Being able to bring out new perspectives is never going to end. And anytime we can do that, whether that is your life experience, Listening to someone else process out how something shifted for them, you might not have the exact same shift, but it helps broaden your understanding of what you might be doing too, like what you might want to do in the future. You go, oh, right, I'm— I've been trying to cook dinner this way, but my season changed and I didn't recognize that it did. And this is why this thing is driving me crazy. That fits the season that I'm in better. So That's probably why I'll never run out of ideas because life never stops changing.

Well, and there are a couple of things that I've learned in research. So academic research, there is not a lot of research on menopause at all. No, there are not a lot of studies about household management beyond married couples with children. Almost all studies are married couples with children, which is only, brace yourself, 29% of the American population.

Wild. Wild.

Only 29% of the adult population is married with children, meaning that 71% of the adult population is not represented in studies and is not represented, frankly, in your and my podcast because we're married with children.

Sure.

And so when you think about housework and households and household management that starts at birth and really goes beyond death in settling an estate, the older we get, the longer we podcast, Kendra, the more we add to the conversation. of not represented populations. So now that I'm not in active childbearing years, pretty much everything I share on the podcast has not been shared before because it hasn't been studied, because that's not where the bulk of the visible work is. Because I mean, if a kid has a soiled diaper, you know it. If a kid's having a temper tantrum at a park, you know it. Like, it's very visible. The piles of laundry. What I'm finding in my 50s now, and for my audience members in 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, the invisible load gets much bigger, much more cognitive, and has even bigger ramifications as you're caring for siblings that don't have spouses, parents, grandparents, multiple houses, estates, settling, selling family businesses, employees. All of these things are really not represented anywhere.

Yeah.

And so, I'm just uncovering more and more invisible work. So, I think the longer that those of us that are podcasting about household management podcasts, I mean, the first year you pretty much get through how to organize the house, and then you got to get into the emotional labor, invisible labor, you know, family interactions, what happens when someone gets sick, all the unexpected, and then the life shifts.

Yeah. Well, in the, in the publishing industry as well, like, this is from 2022, but, you know, we go to these, these books, these time management books to try to figure out how to run things, and 93% of them are written by men. And so the resources that we have, like you just said, are so incomplete. There are so many populations that are not spoken to. But also, I think about all the things that you just listed as part of your— so many of those logistic administrative things that are held are held by women.

Yes.

And so it's not just that the demographic of being older is underrepresented or not much at all. It's that it all seems to fall to women. And yet, there aren't women in the space writing and sharing the things or seen as credible experts in this, who— and they're doing all the work. They're doing so much of the labor. And so, I love that you're bringing science into this and data into this because it has been So missed for so long.

Well, and I'm doing it, one, because I'm bored because my kids are raised. I'm telling you, you're going to get bored. You don't believe it now. Say that. No, I don't believe it now. But if you are a goal-oriented person, you're going to be bored. But also, I do it because, you know, no matter what you and I do, even with your New York Times bestselling books, they will not live beyond you. But if you do it in academia, it does. Academia survives the person, the company, the concept, and the idea is part of then the story of academia, and it does survive beyond the person. And we need someone to go into academia to discuss households beyond married couples with children, which has been the last 50 years of research. Almost every single household study has only studied that population. And so we need a broader conversation here. This will surprise you. Do you know that menopause is not considered a developmental stage? Well, it—

based on what's happening in my body, it sure should.

That's what I'm saying. I'm like, it's the inverse of puberty. How is this not a developmental stage? There are only 2 developmental psychologists. So again, if you understand this and you and your girlfriends understand this and we as a society understand this, but it is not put into the academic literature, it does not survive beyond us. So there are only 2 developmental psychologists. The most well-known is Erik Erikson. And then the second one is Levinson. And he only studied 50 white guys at Harvard. And when they realized that he only studied 50 white guys at Harvard, he studied women a decade later. And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, they have the same stages. They're just at different times and moved on. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. That is not, that is not the answer. Both of these men were 50 when they did their studies. And so they had a white 50-year-old guy's perspective of what developmental stages were. Their spouses hadn't even been through menopause yet. So, um, there is so much lacking in the research. So that was my next point to talk to you about is why do you think 93% of time management books are written by men? I felt the same as a female business owner as I grow my business. It is so hard to learn from other female business owners. And I think the reason for both is the same. I think it's because the women are too busy doing the work to actually sit down and write about what the work is.

I think that could be part of it. Yeah, for sure. Well, you know, it probably depending on your, like, where you live in the country, like, there are lots of different, um, variables that come into, like, why, why that is or why it feels true for different people that men are the ones who are speaking into this. But I, I mean, in my own experience growing up in North Carolina, in which some people say is not the South, but I feel pretty Southern. Maybe not deeply Southern, but like, I feel pretty Southern.

Um, borderline Southern.

Yeah, I'm borderline Southern. So my, my experience as someone growing up in the Southeast who, um, you know, grew up in church and like, oh, there's a, there's a diminishing in many ways of, uh, of a woman's voice and experience and expertise. And, um, not, you know, it's a generalization. Obviously there are a lot of people who have not experienced that or now are in different circles that are the same, in Southern circles and religious circles and all those things where their voices is, is held and respected and, um, outlet and all the things. But I think in general, like, for so long, I mean, you know, it's hard to come out of women or Property, you know, like we're we're not that far out from women being seen as property and more disposable, and they're like they're you it's for their use, right? Women are women are there for having babies and like just moving along the line and all of that. And so I think there's there I think there's some of that that potentially. Is like in the water a little bit that what a woman's experience is. My husband is a delightful man. He is wonderful. He is respectful. He is like he is not. Yeah, he's he like a bro. Like he's just a very tender, sensitive dude. One time we were going on a vacation, and he doesn't read a ton, and I read all the time. And so I was like, do you? I said, do you want to take a book on the plane or whatever we were doing? I said, do you want to take a book? Do you want me to get you a book? And he goes, yeah. He said, well, yeah, if you could get me a book, but could you, could you get one that's like, that's written by a man? And I said, what, what do you mean? What do you mean? He said, well, I just feel like I would relate more to a male author. And I got so hot. It's like a joke now. It was years ago, but I was like, I'm sorry. Are you saying to me that you can't learn from a woman or a woman's experience, even like from a novel? He said, well, it just doesn't feel— and he started to see the fire ablaze around me and was trying to backpedal.

We're losing the vacation.

We're losing the vacation. I know, I know. But like, I always think about that because even that, like, he is— He would be like, a woman's voice doesn't matter. Like, he would not say that. And yet his, his like His choice in that moment was to prefer a male author over a female author. And so I think that it's just in the system. It is in the water where somehow a woman's opinion or knowledge is not as credible as a man's. There is something like in our marrow a little bit where that is people's experience. Now, is that Do I have data to back that up? I do not. I do not. I know it's all anecdotal, but I, but whenever I talk about this kind of thing, almost every way. Oh, absolutely. Every single woman.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh. Yes. Like it's, it's that there is an assumption that women do this, men do this. And somehow what the men do is more valuable than what the women do.

So I recognize that and I can agree with what you are saying. And I mean, I understand that. I know, like, you can't erase history. Like, it is what it is. I'm going to be interviewing on the podcast next month Corey Weathers, and she wrote the book Military Culture Shift. And in that book, she talks about how the military culture was created by women and how, how soldiers and their families are incorporated into new units as they move. is because women created that culture for the families to come in and support the families as the soldier is deployed and all of that. And it's a very well-written book. We'll be talking to Corey next month on the podcast. Well, what has happened over time is women— typically the spouses were women, and so the women created the culture. It's spouses, but it's like 98% women. And as those women got jobs and other things, they have backed down on creating the culture, mostly as it moved from baby boomers to Gen X, and definitely as it moved to millennials. Because Gen X and millennials were employed outside of the home. And so they didn't have as much time to create the culture on the bases, right? Which then in turn caused a military problem because the military was dependent on the culture created by the women. They didn't, didn't realize was created by the women and they no longer had the time and capacity to do it, which then caused a lot of other issues. So to your point, no one said women create the culture for the military in order for this to do it. They just did it. Like baby boomer women just did it.

Yeah, they just did it.

And then they expected to hand it down to eugenics, which some of them did. But as their roles and responsibilities and their children's needs and the educational system and the, you know, kids' allergies and all these things became more— take more time for the spouse, usually the woman, to do, they didn't have as much time to then create the culture for the military for free. You know what I'm saying? So I agree with what you're saying. I want to frame it a different way, and this is the book that I'm currently writing. When you look at the United States gross domestic product, the American household is 68% of the US GDP, and the United States GDP is the largest GDP in the world. So when you look at it that way, the American household is the largest small business in the world. How we spend our money as households is basically how the whole entire world works. I think we can all agree that women are running those households.

Sure.

Okay, so we are the CEOs of the largest economic unit in the world. And if you look in the military, when women stopped creating the culture, the military had a problem. In all these situations where women step out of the invisible work, the unpaid labor that they do, it creates these vacuums and these problems because of where women were working. I understand women wanting to be compensated the same as men, women wanting to be recognized for their labor. I understand all of that. from a, like, personal— you want to be recognized. However, you could also just say women have always run the world. It was just invisible. And now the fact that they are not doing all those things and they're in the paid market, all of their invisible work is becoming more visible because now they're getting paid. And so when you look at all of that, work is work is work. Some is paid, some is unpaid, some is cognitive labor, some is actual labor. Work is work is work. And there definitely is a difference between a female-run company and a male-run company, or a female-written time management book or a male-written time management book. Because let's just be honest, women are doing a lot more, right? They're doing— we're not sitting around playing video games on the couch on our phone. We're just never doing that. We're not sitting down and watching, you know, a 4-hour football game. We're not going and playing 6 hours worth of golf. We might get a manicure for 45 minutes and then run and pick up 18 things on the way home before we get— like, we're doing a lot of things.

Yeah. Well, yeah, we are. We are. I do watch 4-hour football games. I will say this.

Good for you, Kendra. I think we should all do 4 to 6-hour leisure activities. I am like advocating for this. So congratulations.

I think that my— It's such a good— it's such a good thing to discuss. And, and one of the, one of the thoughts that sort of springs up for me is that I think I, I wish there was more— I long for there just a lot more fluidity in what people can do, what they choose to do, how fulfilled they might feel by it. Like, like, like that's someone, because when you said, you know, women aren't, you know, they're not playing video games, and they're not watching a football game, and sort of saying, we're doing more, we are, you know, we're not lazy in that regard. Like, you might even frame it that way.

Okay.

And I think that my initial reaction was like, oh, well, I do one of those things. Does that make me lazy? I do watch football games. I love watching football games. I read, So much, you know, like I spend, I spend a lot of time on leisure.

Yes.

Because of wanting to feel as much of a full person as I can in order to do the things that I want to pour into and to, to, to fulfill the roles that I have in my life and all of that. And so I think what I would want to sort of also add to your exploration and research is. that while we do have roles and that there are systems that we are examining sometimes for the first time, and we're looking at sort of the machinery, it's almost like Oz. It's like, what's happening behind the curtain? We're not really seeing a lot of the machinery and starting to. And so, there are a lot of questions about it and curiosity to have. It's good conversations to have. And My own, again, anecdotal experience with my own work for the last however many years, 'cause I was writing on the internet before The Lazy Genius started. So I've been like listening to women for a while, for 15 years. And the thing that I always, that's very, very consistent is women feeling guilty for resting.

Yes, right.

Women feeling guilty for like, oh, well, I have to do it this way in order for, this role to be valuable, or for this person to think that I'm good at my job, or good at being a mother, or good at like all of that. There's just this weight of— sometimes it's guilt, sometimes it's shame, sometimes it's just— I do think that that feeling starts to dissipate perhaps the older we get.

True.

As women, you know, I, I'm 43 and I'm like, I just, it's pretty funny the things I used to care about. Not in a dismissive way. Not like she was, Kendra was so silly. It's like, no, that was what was happening developmentally. Like I really was trying to find my own way. I was trying to figure out what I thought about the world and myself in it and, and, and all of those things. And so I do think as we, the beauty of getting older, especially as a woman, because we have had our hands in so many pots in many ways, you know, like—

Yeah.

The clarity of purpose, there's a clarity of vision as we get older and going like, this is really what I want to do. This is what I care about. It's fine. The other stuff, I don't— whatever, it doesn't matter. Somebody else can take care of that. Or somebody else can love that. I don't need to as much. So perhaps some of that is generational or just life stage and all of that. But there is a consistent thread Of, in my own experience, feeling like that invisible labor is not valued or is not seen, you know, by their partners. Or it's just, it's, it's just hard to be doing these tasks that just continue to replenish themselves, these invisible things.

Yeah.

You know, the diapers and the laundry. It's like it just never goes away. You never feel like it's done. And, and it can just create such a weary spirit in us where we do want to rest, but there's so much to do. And so we don't— we have to grocery shop, we have to do the meal plan, and the carpool stuff and all of that while we watch the football game.

Yes.

Like we have to do something productive while we're doing something we enjoy in order to not feel bad about doing the thing that we enjoy. And so I thought I would also want to inject into this is that we can Like, I want to be able to watch the whole game without having to do something productive at the same time and not feel bad about that. You know, like that it's okay to do those things because we are creating, like, your whole vision and mine in many ways. It's like we're creating space. We're wanting to create space in our lives to do the things that matter to us. And sometimes those things are Seen as visible and or productive. And sometimes those things are, I love football and I want to watch football, you know? So there's room for, there's room for all of it.

Yeah. So definitely to this decade thing, there is a significant shift that happens at 40. If I ever write anything about developmental stages, I will tell you the 40th birthday is a major one.

It's so weird, man.

For men and women, but it's flipped.

It's wild.

I'm telling you, I don't know how this has not been researched already. And this is not a developmental stage, but when a woman turns 40, it's like, 39 and 364 days, you're like, oh my gosh, my life is over. I can't believe I'm only 40 years old. And then you're 40 and 1 day old and you're like, this is great. What was I worried about? This is awesome. I'm done with you. I'm done with this. I'm doing this. I don't care. Like, like you're a different person at 40 and 1 day old. It's amazing.

It's awesome. And also my, my— that, yes, that is true. But also my body, my body did not— it's not that positive. When I turned 40, everything started to like hurt in weird ways or move in different things. I'm like, what are you doing? We've never done this before. Why are you starting to do this now? Just because of age? What's going on? So it is both. It's both things. But yeah, there's like a huge— there is such a huge shift. It should be— you're right, it should be a developmental stage.

So then the next one, which you're not there yet, is 50.

Yeah.

So my aunt— I told my aunt when I turned 40, I was like, oh my gosh, this is so great. Like, I don't care if you vaccinate or not. I'm just gonna do what I wanna do with my kids. She's like, oh, wait till you get to be 50. I was like, what happens at 50? She goes, you don't even care. I was like, okay, so now I'm 50. been through menopause, I'm like, so right. The emotion of everything is taken out because now, you know, you're not just emotional all the time because your hormones, because they're like gone. So, you're like, great. Now I'm like steady Eddie all the time. And you just have a different perspective of life. You've lived half a century. I hope to live a whole century, but you don't know if you have that much time. And everything from 50 on is like, what's the significance of this? Is this even going to matter? Like you put all of your effort where it's going to matter. And for many of us who started our children younger, if we had children, you're into the empty nesting stage. And so now you're going to prioritize experiences and time over, um, a lot of the things that you do in the active parenting years. When you're in the active parenting years until that last child leaves the house, I mean, the housework just gets— it overwhelms you. It gets more and more and more and more. And there is a breaking point That women usually have when their children are in high school. They like lose their mind. So I was your age, Kendra, when I abdicated everything food-related in my house. And I said to my husband, I said, yeah, um, I was driving 25 hours a week. My kids were in 2 different schools. They had all these extra medical needs. I was buying all fast food and also meal planning and going to the grocery store and buying stuff that we threw away weekly because I was buying all fast food. So I walked in one day and I said to my husband, I said, I don't grocery shop anymore. He was like, what do you mean? And I was like, yeah, um, let's call a spade a spade. I eat fast food morning, noon, and night. Uh, I don't cook. I buy it, but then we never make it. So you have a car, you have a credit card, and you know where the grocery store is. If you'd like anything there, feel free to buy it. So for the last 7 years, I have gone to a grocery store twice, and it's been abysmal each time. I buy the most random stuff. I bought a plant. He took me once and he was like, okay. And he took me to Whole Foods, which is like a bazillion-dollar grocery store. I bought a money tree. I bought like bagels or whatever. He's like, what are you doing? I was like, I don't know how to act in this store. I never was good at shopping. I'm not a good cook. I don't know why you brought me here. He goes, I don't know why I brought you here either. It's like having a squirrel in the store with me. It's worse than having a toddler. Like, you cannot come to the grocery store. So I abdicated every single thing related to food. I buy my own groceries every week that I need. I eat the same exact thing. I order a lunch that's delivered to the office that I make in one of these little meal service things. Like, I, yeah, I'm done with that. And so in your 40s, you do that. You start to say, like, I can't do everything. So what can I? Everything food-related went to my husband because everything child-related had to stay with me. So what I would add to that then is throughout all of your lifespans, even though we are going to change decade by decade, is my hypothesis. Planning is essential. for women because we have so many hats that we wear. And even if we aren't doing all the labor, we are managing all of the labor. And so when you truly plan, and same in the Organized 365 systems, just like you have in the book, The Plan, when you plan to watch a football game for 4 hours and not do work, it's part of the plan. So you also plan to enjoy it and know that you're not doing any work during that time because that is the plan for this time. It gives you the permission to not only schedule the leisure, but to enjoy the leisure and not worry about what else maybe should I or could I be doing. Sure.

Yeah, I think that's a— I think that's a great point. I also think that there's a— for people who are— for people who are naturally gifted at what we think about as planning, you know, that are like fairly naturally organized and they can, they can intuitively build their own systems, like it's nice for them to have some help. But for the most part, they're like, yeah, okay. There are, there are a lot of people that I will encounter in in comments and DMs and different things like that who will say, I'm already doing so much of this. This is really validating to me because you're teaching this thing that's really helpful and I'm seeing I'm doing so much of this already.

Yes.

I'm living by multiple lazy genius principles that you shared in my first book and all of these things. And so I think there are a lot of tremendously competent, women who are organized and planners in the sense of what we've always been taught it is, right? But I think what I, what I want to also do in the conversations around planning is to expand what that means. Because for, for people and women who are maybe not naturally organized, they feel if they are not good at preparing, then they sort of feel like they're already behind. you know, where there's a deficiency there, and they need to learn how to be more prepared, rather than highlighting and valuing and leaning into the skill that they already have, which is, for example, the PLAN is an acronym.

Mm-hmm.

PLAN is an acronym: Prepare, Live, Adjust, and Notice. And I believe deep in my bones that everyone is either naturally gifted at preparing, adjusting, or noticing. Every single person. And there are some alignment with some personality testing things that—

Interesting.

That we could go into. We don't have time for it today. And so I think what that means for my own teaching about planning is that planning is not just about preparation. That is what much of our resources are focused on is on preparation. And we do— it is lovely to be prepared, but if you're only prepared and you do not also recognize that there are equally important skills of adjusting, of problem solving in the moment, of going like, oh yeah, this didn't work, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta swing different, we gotta do something different here.

Yes.

And there are people who are naturally gifted at that, that they don't see that as being good at planning. Because it's not preparation. But I think it's part of moving forward in an intention of how you live is being able to learn to like pivot on the fly and problem solve and go, oh, we got to, we got to switch this just a little bit. This one thing isn't working, so we're going to switch this one thing and it's going to make it a little better. The same is true of noticing. Like there are— I think that this is one of the more, at least in my particular experience with my audience, is The noticers are so undervalued and underrepresented in the conversation because they are the people who, like, you walk in the room, like their kid comes home from school and they immediately know something's not right here. And they stop whatever they're doing because that matters. And how that kid is doing in that moment is going to impact the plan even for the day, for the afternoon.

Yes.

You know, if you had like errands ready and you're like, okay, we're gonna bundle up everybody, it's time time to go out, and a kid comes home and you can just see that there's something tender happening, there's something fragile happening, there's something that you need to pay attention to that you're noticing, then you make an adjustment. You make an adjustment to what you prepared to do. Those 3 words to me work in equanimity. Like, there is a— there's got to be a sense of, uh, not prizing Preparation as somehow better, a better skill than learning to adjust and learning to love that. So I want to expand. That's part of it is expanding the definition of what it means to be a planner.

So noticing, I've been noticing that the word notice is in a lot of things. And now maybe you will all notice noticing more, but in academia, the, and the research right now in housework starts with noticing. Like, do men and women notice the same things? They're out of things. Like, maybe that's where the difference between men and women is, is that's where the research currently is being done, is in the noticing.

Hmm.

Spoiler alert, they notice the same things. They just don't take action on it. Okay, so I could show you the research. Um, so this noticing, as you're talking, I'm gonna put this back into a business lens because I really believe that we as the females in our household are the CEO of our household. A good CEO, in my opinion, is going to have a plan. For crying out loud, you should not be following a business CEO that has no plan for their business. You must do planning, quarterly planning, strategic planning. You must have a vision. You must know where the heck you are trying to go. But once the plan is set, the job of the CEO is to adjust and notice the entire quarter. That's all they do because the team does the work. So if the CEO sets the plan, then as market shifts happen, as launches don't go as planned, they immediately in the moment make decisions and pivot on a dime to keep the business going. And if they're a good CEO, they have a pulse on their team. They notice when a team member is overwhelmed and they put more resources there. They notice if a team is having internal struggles and they put time there. They notice if anything's happening in their culture. And a good leader focuses on the, on the people and the culture more than the actual output of the company. That's not a CEO's job, isn't to do the work. The CEO's job is to set the direction. And so from that point of view, thinking of yourself as the CEO of your house, you have to do all 3. You're more gifted in one, probably, but you can shore up all 3. And the other thing I thought about when you said this is, you know, any job you go to in the world where you're not the business owner, You'll be trained to do that job. There's a job description. You'll be trained to do that job. However, you move out of your childhood home, you move into a dwelling. Congratulations, you are a household manager. No manual, no instructions, like nothing to do. And also very few communities to go to. They say the same thing with parenting, but come on, there are parenting classes. You meet other parents, you can ask questions. It's not the same. And you can see the parenting in the wild. You can't see how you're running the household in the wild. And so I think a lot of how we do create our systems will bend towards like, okay, I need to create structure here and I'm a planner, so I'm going to just do all preparing, or I'm a noticer, so I'm going to do all noticing. But we must strengthen all of these in order to have a well-rounded system. I think what happens as you get older is that your other skills kind of build in back behind you. But I really feel badly for primarily women in their 20s and 30s who haven't stumbled upon a mentor or been in somebody's household and go, wait, how did you do that? Like, and start to build their repertoire of how to do it. It's easier to do today through YouTube and through podcasts. I think podcasts are better than YouTube because you don't compare your house to their house. But yes, I agree. And still, that all falls into If we build CEO skills in our household management role, the management of the household will go better. And it is all of those things. I 100% agree with you. Yeah.

The, the interesting, the interesting consideration is that not everyone is built to be the CEO of a company.

Correct?

And so how do we, you know, the, the, the work I feel like is to meet the people who maybe do not have a natural skillset of, uh, what it might be to, you know, if, if, cuz that is a really interesting analogy of like the, the, cuz I've heard that before of, um, you know, that the women are the CEO of the home. And, and I think that's where some women who feel like, well, I'm, I, I, please don't make me be a CEO.

Like, no. I wanna be a housewife.

I don't want to do that.

Yes.

You know, it's like, maybe if you see it as like, if you're looking at through this business analogy that you're sort of like the person who is, you're making soap at home and you're selling it at the farmer's market. It's like, that's the kind of business I am comfortable running. Like, that's fine. Um, you know, that there's, it's, it's like, it feels like it's smaller stakes. It's not as, you know, it doesn't have a Slack channel, you know, like that there is sort of like more presence and, and, um, It's smaller, right? It's like a— it's a smaller footprint, I suppose. And so I think that that's— that would be the— my curiosity and sort of working through that is also broadening the conversation around, like, you may not be someone whose personality is such that you feel comfortable being like, okay, we're going to do this and we're going to do this. And, you know, but you do know, you do feel like you can help create a culture in your home of whatever those words are. And it can feel quieter and slower, and that that's just as valuable. And, you know, that we all get to kind of choose this different way that we're gonna move about in the world and in our homes. And it doesn't all have to look one way. I don't think that's what you're saying at all. But I think that's what's so beautiful about talking about this stuff is that we're we can expand the definitions and the expectations and the pictures that we have in our heads of what all that can look like. Yes.

And I have been, uh, I've had this idea for like half a, half a 5 years and I haven't really pushed into being the CEO of your household because it is so like manly and corporate and, you know, like bro energy. Like I could tell you're resisting it. However, like, so I have just done research on what is housework. And academia has it as like a jillion things. And it really, according to the American public, is only 3 things. It's laundry, it is preparing food, and it is cleaning.

Mm-hmm.

And so if we look at planning, noticing, and adjusting, which are all part of planning, and we need to have all of them, and you're gonna be stronger in one than the other, housework is these 3 things. You can't like not do a couple of them because you're more gifted in laundry, so you're not gonna do the other 2.

Sure.

Same thing. You don't have to be like a Fortune 500 CEO, but you have to get through your housework. You have to get through your finances. You have to plan your meals for the week. You have like— there are things that we have to do as household managers that require structure. And what I think is missing is not just the names of it, but actual freaking systems. Like, you have to create everything from scratch. So Organize 365 has systems. We have the Sunday Basket, which is your weekly planning routine. We have these binders to replace your file cabinet so you can evacuate from hurricanes and fires and still have all of your information. And as I've gone deeper into the actual act of being a household manager, when you look at single women in lower socioeconomic statuses, they have to do all of the work of married couples with less resources and no systems whatsoever.

Yeah.

And so when I take this down to women in their 20s with children and we go to Habitat for Humanity, for example, Habitat for Humanity will give you a house. You know what they don't give you? An operation binder in order to run that house. So we are working on partnering with them with creating the actual physical binder so that as those women learn, okay, I need to check the HVAC this often, how old is the roof, where do I put all this information, instead of making them create those systems from scratch, Through their noticing or their pivoting or their planning. There's actually a manual that goes with their house and training that goes with that house. They're like, okay, now you have a house. Here's how you run the household portion. You figure out the parenting. We're not training parenting. Some of these systems are lacking everywhere. And so because they're lacking everywhere and there's so much work to do anyway, we get caught. So we've gone too far into the Organized 365. I want to end with a couple of quick And questions from your things that I noticed from the book, The Plan, that I really, really liked. One was this big black trash bag energy. Can you talk about big black trash bag energy?

I sure can. And quickly off mic, I do have to be hard out at the top of the hour because I have another interview after you. So, so big black trash bag energy, we all like— sometimes when I say it in a room, people start laughing because they know what it is without me even having to explain. But it is, but it's that feeling where you're like, we're starting over. It's, we're not doing this anymore, you guys. And you just start chucking stuff in a big black trash bag. You're like, sorry everybody. Your children are crying, you know, because you're just taking everything out of the house. But we also do that metaphorically. You know, we do that where we're just like so overwhelmed by things not working the way that we think they should. And so we start over. It's why you buy a new planner in May or February or every month.

Yes.

You know, you're like, well, it's not working. We got to start over. It's basically like a big, strong start over energy. And I just think that big problems are really, really hard to solve. And starting over really doesn't ever work. So instead, that's why start small is such an important lazy genius principle. It's just be, be where you are. Start small with whatever's in front of you. You don't have to throw everything away. Not everything has to be great. It's not all or nothing all the time. Like we— it's very human to just start with one thing and try to fix that one small thing.

Yeah.

And then move on to the next thing. It's all going to be okay.

Kendra, this has been such an awesome interview. I could talk with you all day. You've got my mind going in a couple of new directions, so thank you so much for that. Always love to get new things to be thinking about. You can get The Plan everywhere books are sold. And also Kendra's also book, Lazy Genius and Lazy Genius Kitchen. Kendra, congratulations again on your 3rd New York Times bestselling book. That is just such an accomplishment. Thanks.

Thank you.

It was a pleasure talking with you.

Yeah, same. Thanks for having me, Lisa.