641 – Women’s History Month – The Invisible Role of Women in the Military With Corie Weathers

Today on the podcast, we are joined by Corri Weathers, author of the book Military Culture Shift. Welcome, Corri.

Thank you, Lisa, for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Well, we are so excited to have you. Corri is a licensed professional counselor. She's a sought-after speaker, consultant, and award-winning author. She has focused her career on the last 20 years as a clinician specializing in marriage, Special Forces, the service culture, and its impact on families. She has traveled internationally to visit troops and report on deployment conditions and has taught service families across the globe. Corey consults on military culture, produces content through interviews and videos, and facilitates meaningful and productive sessions and retreats on living, leading multicultural teams, finding purpose, and building relationships using their natural talents. Corey, Thank you so much for joining us on the Organized 365 podcast. Can you start by sharing with us, why did you decide to join the military?

Well, and just for clarification, I am a military spouse. When we have— yeah, when we have— which honestly throws a lot of people off because I am so heavily involved in the community and the culture.

It's amazing.

Well, yeah, you know, and that's not necessarily every military spouse. In fact, we're probably going to talk about this because The newest generation of military spouses may not even want to be pointed out or don't want to adopt the identity of being a military spouse. And I am a Gen X spouse, and I came in when we were just really proud to be able to not only take on this role, but really coming in with this mentality of, if, if my spouse is going to serve, then how do I do my own service? How do I serve alongside and be part of this community and serve somehow? And so there's so many spouses that volunteer, that start businesses that support the military community. And that's kind of what happened with me too. I came in with a background in counseling, but I knew as a military spouse, it's going to be really hard to keep relocating and shifting my license everywhere. And that's exactly what happened. And so I really just took my clinical background and really pointed it to studying the culture, the military culture from a psychological perspective. So, to answer your question, my husband is a chaplain. We came in in 2008, and he is the service member. But a lot of what I do, everything that I do, is serving the military community and investing in leaders. I just get the benefit of not having to— I don't know if everybody would consider it a benefit, but I don't have to wear a uniform every day. Which I'm okay with.

So, okay. So then, um, okay, first tell us who lives in your household with you.

So we are about to be empty nesters, um, but we have 2 boys. So, um, we have one that is 20 that we have successfully launched to Texas A&M, um, who's one of those Gen Z that wanted to join the military and had to go through the waiver process and could not join the Air Force because, because of a condition from when he was 5. So that's one of the issues that you will hear about So, we are one of the victims of that, if you will. And then I also have a 17-year-old that just got accepted to Texas A&M this past week. And so, he will be launching this fall. And we are PCSing this fall. So, lots of things happening this year. So, we have 2 boys. We now officially have 2 cats. And so, and yeah, this fall it'll just be my husband and I back at home. So, I know we're going to talk later about PCSing and moving and all of that. But I think it's really important to talk about And what that looks like. And we, we always say every assignment, every PCS is— doesn't get easier, it just gets different. And that will definitely be different for us as well.

And I did not know what PCS stood for. So it stands for Permanent Change of Station, right?

Yes. Which, which ironically is not permanent.

I know. Temporarily changing station. It probably doesn't sound temporary.

Yeah, because that's another acronym we have, which is Temporary Duty Station or TDYs. You know, where service members have to go somewhere temporarily. So I guess they just had to make another acronym to set them apart. So we are just completely understanding that this is not a month thing. This is a 2-year thing, but it's still temporary.

Permanent in the military is 2 years.

Yes.

Oh my gosh. Okay. So we are definitely gonna get into that. So thank you for sharing who is in your household. So let, um, how did your husband decide to join the military? What was that process like? And yeah, how has that really impacted You and your lifestyle?

Yeah, well, it's definitely impacted everything that we do and, and are about. When we first got married right out of college, um, we had plans to do marriage work together and really invest in marriages. And, you know, we went back to seminary, we went back to graduate school to get the degrees that we needed. And one day my husband was in the gym at graduate and ran into a Green Beret who's coming back in and getting his Master's of Counseling, I believe. Actually, I think he was coming back into school to become a chaplain. And my husband was like, didn't know this was an option, and came home and said he wanted to join the Army as a chaplain. And I was like, no, no, that's not in our plans at all. I had dreams of opening a practice and investing in the local community and Um, I actually made him wait a year and a half because I just was like, this can't be a real thing that you want to do. And, um, sure enough, you know, here's, and you know, I, I joke with other military families when I say this, and, and maybe those that maybe aren't military connected won't understand this, but I, I joke that when he went for officer basic, um, I in my head was thinking, well, I'll let him go do this basic thing and then he can come home and then we'll decide. Not realizing that like he had joined. We are in, we are in for at least the next 4 years. So that's how kind of, you know, how much I wasn't tracking. So the short story is he wanted to become a chaplain and he was, he's completely built for that. He's an incredible chaplain. His father, um, is a retired police officer. His grandfather's a retired police officer. And he just grew up seeing the impact of trauma in a service profession. And he wanted to stand in the gap and help those that are Doing the really hard things that we need them to do, that we as Americans and civilians ask of a need in our communities, whether it's first responders or whether it's military, and who is taking care of those people. And so, once I fully understood what was motivating him, I knew that this was definitely something I wanted to come alongside and devote the rest of my career to doing the same. And that was one of the things we said before we said yes.

Yeah.

I remember pulling him into the parking lot and saying, if we're going to do this, we're going to do it together, like all in. And that's what it's been for me too. I just shifted my focus from a clinical angle and have been serving military and a few first responders along the way throughout my career.

Well, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for your service. I have always thanked service members, but my understanding of the service and the context with which you make sacrifice was different. Like, I always think of like, you know, the Secret Service and they will put themselves in harm's way and take a bullet for the president. But the more that I watch shows like Madam Secretary or The West Wing, or now I've done a tour of the White House and I've met the people that work in the White House, like, it is a sacrifice of everything when you work at that level. Like, your family is not on the list. Like, everything is below the service to the country. And so in reading your book, I have such a deeper understanding of the personal sacrifices that military members make that I didn't realize.

Mm-hmm.

The sacrifice of choice, of missing family events, um, sometimes lack of economic opportunities and the continual sacrificing of community and friendships as you move from one station to the next. And so for our non-military audience, are there any stories that you would want to share about how that sacrifice has kind of played out for you just for us to understand more fully?

Yeah. So first of all, thank you. I receive that. And, um, and I just want to say you're worth it.

Thank you.

And that those that are listening are worth it. And that I don't say that lightly. Um, you know, my son, the first son that went off to college, before he left for college, he had been in 10 schools. Um, and at one point I had 5 licenses just trying to work. We have like a 30% unemployment rate for spouses because of the frequent relocation, which leads to work gaps and Many, many spouses who want to work really put every— all of their needs aside to get everyone reestablished every year and a half to 2 years, however frequent you're relocating. And they put all of their needs and desires and passions and sense of purpose on the back burner to get everyone reestablished again before they might even start looking for work again. So that creates those work gaps. And then even if they get a job, if they're able to get a job and if there's not a stigma associated with hiring a military spouse, Then they pick up and, and leave a year later. And honestly, that's one of the reasons why I had to pivot my own career, because there was a point by the third group practice I was working with, I realized this, this is not about me and me having a job.

Mm-hmm.

This was not fair to my clients who needed a clinician that could be consistent longer than a year and a half. And that was where I said, even this thing that I want to do is not fair to other people. If I'm going to keep moving, and so I needed to pivot that. So, you know, it is incredibly stressful. We have a lot of families that fall apart. We have marriages that fall apart because of it. There's a lot of wonderful things about it too, and that's what makes this such a difficult conversation because we are constantly striving to make things either easier or less disruptive, and at the same time, we know that suffering and difficulty. builds community, and it also builds strength of character and grit. And so there's some great things that have come out of it that even my kids at this age are now looking, just now looking back and going, I wouldn't wanna do it again, but—

Right.

I can see how I learned some things that maybe some other kids didn't. But that doesn't necessarily mean that there's not room for change in making it easier on families. So, I'll just say, you know, it is hard. Even this past week, we're getting ready to move again, and I don't move well. Like, I don't have the talent to adapt quickly. I know this about myself. No amount of workshops or books that I read is ever going to make this easier for me. And so, I can already feel that in my system. And I even, you know, I'll just be transparent here. I even said to my husband, like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore.

Yeah.

Too hard, you know. And of course, by the time we get to the other side, I will feel differently. And I just have to take a second to remember the people that we're serving, and they're worth it too. And so, so yeah, so it is, it is challenging, and every family has their own challenges. But just for us in particular, like, we are going to get to move and stay in the state of Texas. We are currently in Central Texas, and we'll move to San Antonio next. But that also means we are Going on, honestly, 6 or 7 years since we've been close to our family in the Southeast. And that's expensive to go and either see them or fly them out to see you, and the amount of energy and effort. So, so many of our families also are pulled away from those family and friends they've had for a very long time that would normally be their support network.

Um, when you said I was worth it, I started crying. I don't think that we— uh, I just don't think that— I'll just speak for myself. I, as an American, do not think about the continual sacrifices that are made on my behalf. I just think, you know, it's just not— it's not something that I think about often. And the fact that not only are you sacrificing for me, but you believe that I'm worth it, is even almost more than I can take. And I think that your book, Military Culture Shift, is— it's just so well written, you guys. It is so well written. And it has provided me such a strong foundational understanding of military life and the complexities of this career choice that I didn't understand. I highly recommend it to anyone who would like to better understand the lived experience of family lives, uh, of military families better. It's available. I now have all, all of these. I have the ebook, I have the hardcover, and I have the Audible. So it's good in all forms, you guys. And I'd like to touch on 3, 3 of the concepts that came out of the book that I think would be relevant to this audience. The first one is the way military initiatives are approved and funded. It is different. I want to talk about that. Second is the role of spouses, mostly women, in creating military culture on each base and how that's shifted over the last, you know, 30 years. And then the third will be the invisible work related to moving called PCSing. So number one, I did not know this, and I think it is relevant for our discussions to understand the difference between approved military initiatives and then funding them. Can you please explain the difference and what happens when an initiative is actually passed and then it is not funded?

Oh goodness, Lisa, and this is such a doozy of a question. So before we lose the audience, let me just—

let me just say— No, it's so important though.

It is, it is, it is, and it's honestly fascinating once you understand just like the basics of it. fascinating and it will help you watch the news in a whole new way.

Yes.

And can I also just say in response to the emotion that you felt coming up when I said you're worth it, you know, in World War II, 1 out of, I think it was 1 out of 4 or 6, 1 out of, we'll say 1 out of 4 people knew someone serving in the military. And so everybody had a family member or a next-door neighbor that was serving. And so it felt very close to you and you understood the sacrifice. Compare that today and it's 1 in 200, which means—

Oh, wow.

Oh, right. And so there's so many Americans today that don't even know somebody that's serving, which is why when we go through the airport and we see a service member in uniform, everybody's staring like, what is that? What is your life like? What are you doing? You know, and maybe even afraid to talk with them. And one of the things I'm also seeing is we have come to a place where we are so comfortable with being detached that we see these choices that families are making to be— to join the military as a choice, just like my son who's choosing engineering as an option for their career.

Mm-hmm.

And we're getting to a place where we're okay with that detachment and go, well, he's choosing to be an engineer and this one's choosing to be A soldier, your choice, right? But it doesn't have anything to do with me, when it has everything to do with you.

Right.

So, I just wanted to make sure I put those numbers out there, that there might be people listening to this even right now, that if you do the Rolodex, if anybody remembers what a Rolodex is, in your mind, do you know somebody who's serving? And please don't be afraid to talk with someone who is, because it can be really powerful for both sides. That being said, you brought up the question about money and how money moves through the government. And I know that this doesn't sound like an exciting topic to everybody listening. And so, I'm going to do everything possible in this conversation to talk about these things in a way that touch your own life.

Mm-hmm.

Because it is how your government, not just the military, gets things accomplished. And there's so much talk about bureaucracy and how slow it takes to make decisions. And honestly, the reason why we have bureaucracy is because of previous mistakes that people have made or taking advantage of the system. And so the more loopholes people find, the more rules we kind of have to have to protect the process, and that turns into red tape and bureaucracy. So sometimes bureaucracy can be a good thing. Now, when it comes to getting anything accomplished, especially funding for the military, funding for initiatives. The best way I can explain this is every new administration that comes in decides, that administration, that president decides, here is my initiatives for defense, my perspective on how I want to protect and defend and deter war from my administrative strategic perspective.

Right.

The defense, the DOD, then answers that strategy with the defense budget. The defense strategy, they come back and they, our military leaders, They answer it by saying, okay, we have heard what our commander-in-chief wants of us. Here's what we can do on how we can do what you're asking us to do. And we're also going to give you the budget of what we think that that's going to cost.

Right.

At that point, once the budget gets approved, it goes to Congress. So Congress has to be able, the House and the Senate, they both have to vote and say, we are okay with spending the money that way. So, that is what's called the NDAA. And you're going to hear it every, every year. You're going to hear about the NDAA coming up. And probably what you're going to hear is talk of government shutdown. Because usually, right, so when you hear government shutdown, you should be— that should be like a little flag that goes off in your head that, oh, they must be talking about the NDAA, right? So, that is basically talking about the wide federal budget of what it costs to run the country.

Yeah.

And they have to approve that money. And sometimes we see, a lot of times, the Congress might be slipping in other bills to get approved in that. We've had a government shutdown one year about Planned Parenthood. There was a shutdown around the border protection at one point. And so that's why often we have these government shutdowns as they have to agree on the budget and how the money is spent. And there might be these other topics that are thrown in that kind of stall the process. So, the NDAA is basically like your household budget. And so, when you say, hey, spouse of mine, this is how much money we have and where we wanna spend it. Are you okay with it? Let's both vote yes on that. So, you're the House and he's the Senate, let's say, right? And so, you both vote yes. But now, and that's— that turns into law. We have now said that is the budget, that is the law, and that is what we have to follow because we've all turned it into a law. Okay. But now there has to be a second law, an appropriations law. And if anybody remembers, I'm Gen X. If you remember the '70s and '80s, the I'm a Bill song.

Yes. I was thinking that the whole time you were talking. I was like, wow, we're in real life watching a Bill song. In real life, right?

And if you remember anything from that song, I'm sure you remember the big takeaway for me was, man, that is a long song. And number 2, and I understand half of it. And number 2, he got to the end and the bill didn't even become a law.

Right.

Because the president can veto it, right?

Yeah.

And so every bill that needs to be passed has to become law, and that includes how we spend money. So once the NDA is passed and turns into law, we have to have a second law, which is the appropriations law that says, here's how you can spend the money specifically. How does that money break down into all these little bud— buckets and categories? And that then is voted on and becomes law. And that one really isn't argued about very much because everybody knows Right. And everybody knows once you agree on the budget, we gotta like get this moving and get going. But where that becomes complex is you can't like reach into a different bucket to spend money when you run out of money in your bucket, right? So that's the whole point of all these buckets and the way that they're organized. And I'm— this is a very crude explanation, but basically these laws protect how we spend that money so that we spend it responsibly. And that process has to happen every single year. So I think the summary here is, as you hear about initiatives and how people, what people want to do from a defense perspective, what the strategy is that they want to accomplish from an administration perspective, that's nifty until we have to put it into a strategy, put money behind it. And then you have what our government was created to do, which is checks and balances, a way for all of us to have a vote of having people in those seats to approve that strategy, approve how that money is spent, and then make sure it's spent responsibly. So that's a huge process, but I hope that that helps a little bit. But just in understanding that each initiative has to be in those buckets in a certain way.

Okay, that's great. And I understood that in the book. What came next was the big whammy for the families, which I would like you to explain. Which I did not understand. And then when I read it in the book, I was like, oh my goodness, I as an American had no idea this happened. And I believe it went on for 7 years, and I think it was called sequestration. But if you could explain— yeah, okay, we got a bill, but it doesn't— didn't really get totally funded, but yet we have this law, so we have to actually do the things, but we don't have enough money to do the things. Can—

Yes. So this is, this is really important for everybody listening too, because what we're even seeing in the political space— and this conversation is not going to be a political conversation, so everybody knows— but I just want you guys understand, as you hear, how do we cut government spending? How do we bring the spending dollars down? Just like when you are budgeting your home budget, if you are overspending and you're going into debt, you're probably going to come to your spouse and say, we need a business meeting and we need to start saving money.

Right.

And this is exactly what happened in 2010 when we were spending a lot of money. But of course, from a defense perspective, for sure, But we were also fighting 2 wars at the same time. So things were getting expensive, not only to ramp up whatever we needed from a modernization perspective to actually accomplish those wars and make sure that they were fully supplied, but also how do you support the families back at home that we need them to be in a stable place and taken care of if we're taking their, their family member and asking them to go to war. So everything from Building new buildings on the installation, houses, all the stuff that needed to go as far as support behind the scenes. So basically, Congress came to the defense around 2010 and said, "Hey, you know we need to cut spending here. We're spending way too much money." And of course, defense is answering, "Well, then you need to decide whether or not we need to stay in two wars. Tell us what you want us to do." And of course, we didn't know how to wrap up those two wars. And so now Congress has to hold. They're the ones responsible for the purse strings. The people are right. And so, they pretty much gave the defense a warning and said, we would like for you to do the best you can to save money. Well, the defense, again, trying to win 2 wars, called them on their bluff and said, you know what, we don't know how to do anything different than what we're doing if you don't change the strategy, change the ask, right? And so, we didn't do a good job saving money because we were needing to accomplish the task in front of us. So, just like your family budget, if you're doing a poor job saving money, We need to put some hard lines in place and say, okay, now we're gonna have to force you to save money. And that's what sequestration is, which, by the way, is another law. When they did the Budget Control Act in 2010, 2011, they wrote sequestration in there that was basically like, okay, if you can't save money, we're gonna put sequestration in there that will, that will force us to save money by 2013. And that's exactly what happened. And sequestration basically asked the defense to cut 25% of their budget across the board. But that's like taking your household budget and saying, since we did not do a good job restraining our passion for eating out, we are now going to spend 25— forced to spend 25% less on your groceries, your electric bill, your insurance, your car payments, your mortgage, every category slashed by 25%. And that was— had just a massive trickle-down effect in our force, everything from, I mean, cutting our supplies to service members and the support that they needed to finish the job well overseas. That meant that we took our eye off the ball for watching our privatized housing and making sure that they were taking care of families well. Everything, every air programming for families, whether it's childcare. I remember, because I didn't understand what any of this meant either back then, Lisa, and I remember suddenly childcare was less available and there was waitlists. Suddenly there weren't enough childcare workers. They were just furloughed and gone. We had people that were helpful in keeping spouses informed, positions for that. They were gone the next day. So it was a very harsh—

Yeah.

Transition for a— I mean, you're talking 2 million people without much understanding of why this was happening. Even when it comes down to, we don't have enough paper in the printer to print off the resources for your workshop on how to cope with your deployment. So sorry, we're going to cancel the workshop. So it's little things like that. But sequestration, you might hear that terminology again sometime soon. We are now currently spending federally more money than we were definitely spending back there, even in, even counting inflation. So, these things tend to repeat in history, and it's good for us to be aware of how do we spend money, how do we manage money, but even more than that, how do we prepare ourselves so we don't have to make some of the same mistakes that we've seen in the past?

Yeah, and I think, you know, we're recording this in 2025, and you wrote the book before 2025. So now we're seeing a lot of shakeup at the national level in a lot of budgets, and I'm sure a lot of different entities are going through similar feelings that the military went through at that time. Um, so I want to read something out of your book. On page 164, you wrote, Over the last few years, I have personally heard stories of spouses who have eaten ice rather than dinner so they could afford to feed their children. And I was listening to your book on Audible at the time, and I stopped the book.

Hmm.

And I cannot read that without just feeling so much. Every time I look at ice now, I think of our military families. And from that line on, my guard has been down. Like, my heart is so heavy, and I grieve for the misunderstanding and the immense sacrifice made on my behalf. So again, I'm going to say thank you to all who serve, who have served, who are going to serve in the armed forces. There, there is so much more sacrifice happening than I think we understand. So while I could talk about this for days, I'm not in a position to make change in our military funding. So we're going to move on. And I want to talk about the role of spouses, mostly women, in creating military culture on each base and how that has shifted over time. So if you could go back from before you were even in the military and talk about what it was like, experience of a military family arriving on a new base in the late 1990s, maybe early 2000s, and then share how that has changed over time.

Yeah, you know, we, we kind of throw around a saying in the military community that the military is a good— and the DOD is a good 10 years culturally behind the civilian space. And so when you think back to the '90s, and even think back to the '80s, especially women were really starting to surge in the workplace. And it was a really exciting time for women to want to be able to have careers. And in fact, the baby boomers were known for not only higher divorce rates, but also women entering the workplace. And so that's why we have Gen X that are called latchkey kids, because we talk about being— we raised ourselves, or television raised us, basically. So when you think about how that might play out in the military, when you're pulled away from your family and friends, and you're in this isolated space where you know no one, and you're in a vulnerable vulnerable place, and it could even be overseas. You are in— and I'll just speak for myself because I think it's a great way to explain it.

Yeah.

You know, here I was thinking I was going to start my own practice before we came in the military and be a part of the community of people that I knew and serving, you know, and I have an easy in because I can just work with my supervisor and join and do a practice with her. And I've got these connections to just really start doing life. So, when we decided to join the military and we had to move to Colorado, I grew up in Georgia, Now, I've never lived in Colorado before, and now I'm living on an installation with people I do not know. But what we do have in common is, at least at that point, the whole block was deployed or was about to deploy at the same time. And it was a life-changing experience for me to really realize how this community supports itself because where else are you going to get the support if you don't know it? If you don't even know where to— where's the best salon or dentist to go to, you have to go to your neighbor and go, who do you go to? Right?

Right.

Who do you trust? And so, when you go back to the '90s even, you know, there's a little bit of ups and downs with the Gulf War, but from the most perspective— from the most part, the '90s was kind of a peacetime where there wasn't a ton of war on the radar. And so, there was kind of this rest time, and you have a lot of spouses who maybe can't go into the workplace as military spouses because they're moving. And they really formed this tight community in order to serve each other. And so, to find a sense of purpose, you find a way to volunteer in the community, to mentor people in the community, to have these coffee groups, these opportunities for people to come together and make the community happen. That also turned into some fantastic programming that we— that I benefited from by the time I came in in 2008. So from a spouse perspective, even going on before the '90s, the spouses were really well known for creating a sense— being the heartbeat, really creating that sense of community, making sure everyone, spouses at least, were informed, knew how to get the support that they needed on or off the installation. And the military really appreciated that because the more resilient and connected the spouses were, Right. The more stable the families were, which made the service members more stable in their jobs, and they could concentrate on the mission. And so this became this interesting codependent relationship where the military really supported the spouses in all the efforts that they were doing, mostly volunteering. And the spouses really needed the military because they were providing all of their basic needs, and it formed this really messy codependent relationship. Now, about the '80s and going into the '90s, when spouses are suddenly like, I mean, I love this volunteer thing, but I really kind of have a heart to maybe want to work. And but I can't get a job if I am forced to volunteer. And if I don't volunteer, our community is going to fall apart. The more, the more of us that work, the less of us that are volunteering. And so now we have a really stuck situation where The military would love to champion spouses being happy and finding a sense of purpose and getting jobs, but the more they get those jobs, the less support, the less free support the military has.

Yes.

So we still struggle with that codependent relationship today. What you have now is more spouses than ever really kind of putting their feet down, putting their foot down, because we're, we're coming from the civilian culture a good 10 years ahead where It's very common for women, especially, to be in the workplace. Nowadays, we actually have more mothers than ever that have the choice. It's kind of 50/50. A lot of people are fine with staying home, and they also want to have the opportunity to work. But fewer and fewer are willing to come into the military and volunteer for free for their own support's sake. And so what we are now seeing is a deterioration of the community where there's fewer people volunteering and supporting that community. Meanwhile, the demand and the ask on the military remains the same. And going back to what you shared about that one spouse, in the '80s, all the way up to your, you know, in the first decade of the 2000s, that spouse who might be struggling to feed her children could go to her neighbor, could go to anyone on the block and say, can we do a potluck?

Yeah.

You know, maybe I just bring the side, right? And she would have a whole community of families surrounding her and supporting her through whatever that family needs. And my biggest concern is today, that spouse is more isolated than ever. Fewer families know each other in the neighborhoods because we are all in America more disconnected than ever. Um, maybe not even knowing your, your neighbor at all. Um, and so now we have that same spouse who can't feed her family, maybe doesn't know the resources that are available to her, but doesn't know who to ask and would rather just quietly struggle in her home rather than reach out for support. And so there's a lot of shifts like that that have happened.

Yeah. And I'm just like, I'm having mental pictures in my head, maybe because I read the book, maybe because I watched the TV show. I think there was a military TV show that I watched.

Army Wives has definitely helped. And it might have been that one.

Okay. So, and we're going to get into this continual moving. That's going to be the next thing we talk about. But I want you, like, I want the audience to imagine, and then I'd like for you to articulate for us. Like, I want you to imagine being in your 20s or maybe in your 30s, and you're moving far away from your family onto a base. And you don't know anyone and all of the things that you would need. And, and I'm imagining, like, my picture of when you're in, you're in the Army now, like, like you're in the Army and you come on the base and there would be like this revelry and here's where you're gonna stay and here are all your new friends, kind of like college is what I'm thinking it is. And listening to you, I realized that no, it's just like we would move to a brand new city where we wouldn't know anybody. And we would have to make all those connections on our own. You would think that moving with the military, because all these people are moving all the time, there would there would be these natural ways to connect, or they would. You've done this for like hundreds of years. You know everybody needs a dentist. You know everybody needs to have haircuts and all of these things. That there would be a really great checklist. There would be a really great process for doing this, and it seems like. Maybe there was, but there isn't now.

I think that there are in some cases, and social media did help with this once it ramped up in 2014 and forward, where spouses formed spouse Facebook groups where you could openly ask those questions and you would get a flurry of, of recommendations. And so that definitely helped a lot. Um, but I think that you're going back to your first question.

And who—

let's, if we think through it, like, who is going to make the list of recommendations for when you move?

That's right.

It's not the installation, because most of the military leaders on that installation are more so concentrating on their mission and making sure that their service members are ready for that next deployment or training and checked, ready to go. And it's really, I loved in writing the book, doing the research and hearing how the military recruited people and how those messages changed over time. Because my favorite was in the '80s, where really the military was coming across in their marketing like, we are like this fatherly figure that's going to take you in and protect you and give you everything you need. So why are you— sounds like an all-inclusive, right? Why not join?

Yes.

Right? And you're gonna just have this amazing community that welcomes you. And in a way, it was like that. But then by the time it got to the '90s, we were— they were really concerned that the families were going to get dependent. And overly dependent on the military for everything, including where— you said you were going to help me with everything, so where's the next dentist? And they're like, we're not in charge of dentists, we're in charge of war.

Right.

Right? And so, so then they change their language to, we take care of our families so that they take care of themselves. And so when you ask, well, where do they get this information about the dentist? It's very easy for this codependent relationship for the military to go, that's not on us.

Yes.

Each family, whether you're talking about how you budget your money so that you have enough groceries or knowing what dentist to go to, is completely your choice. And we are not going to step all the way into your household and tell you how to run your household and where to go. So hands off on that. Um, and that gets really sticky because there's other things they do want to reach in and control. But the point is, is who comes up with those lists and those systems? Spouses have to. In the, in the gap or in the space of it not being there, spouses have to. The more weary spouses get, the less likely they are to pull that together and distribute it. Not to mention, how do I distribute that information if everybody is not forced to be in that Facebook page or forced to be—

Right.

Right. And so how are we making sure that we're reaching everybody, especially if everybody's starting to pull back and start protecting themselves and protecting their family? Which is what we're seeing now. So again, it goes back to there's got to be a better way for this. And yet, if we are saying the only best way to do it is by asking spouses to do more, spouses are starting to go, it's been 20 years, we're tired, and I don't think we, we can do more.

And, you know, before we move on, I just— you keep saying spouses and I keep saying it's mostly women in your book. I think it's like 95% women or 98% women. So it's not even mostly, it's like Almost all.

Yeah.

And I immediately think, because, you know, I asked you in the beginning the composition of your household, what about the single people who are moving? What about the single service member with children that is moving? What about the widowed service member who's moving? What about the service member who has to take care of a family member who is moving? And so I think, you know, even I just want to call out that we keep saying spouses, but there are a lot of people going, yep, I'm the service member, I'm the spouse, I'm the— you check the box. I am all of the people. And I think that is happening more and more. So before I go into my last little thing we're going to talk about, you mentioned that you're going to PCS again and that you're not good at moving. I think you kind of have some anxiety around it. So I'm just going to put some salt in that wound. When you think about moving again, what comes up for you? What is What is hard? What is easy? Why are you like, all right, ready? We're gonna move. What, you know, what are you thinking?

Well, you know, I do, um, in the counseling and coaching that I do, I, I'm a huge fan of the Gallup StrengthsFinder assessment that helps us understand our talents and kind of release some of the guilt of the things that we're not really good at. Like, let's embrace what we're good at and let's be okay with the things that we're not good at and learn to manage those. And so there are some people that are very talented at adapting quickly. And there are some people, and I bet, Lisa, you are one of them, that have the talent of consistency and discipline, which you love order, you love organization. You, I mean, I'm looking at your screen and you've got your labeled folders behind you, right? And I remember I had a spouse that I was working with one time who had discipline number 1 as her top strength.

Mm-hmm.

And she said, you know what my most, my favorite, no, she said, my ideal vacation plan. This was an idea of a vacation. She said would be for my husband to take the kids outta the house, for me to take their drawers, the kids' drawers, dump them in the middle of the room, and to organize their room. That would be her ideal vacation. And that is not me. I don't even hang out with people like that. Like, Lisa, like I need to hire people like you to like help me fill those, those weaknesses. And it's not that I don't want to be ordered and organized, it's that I don't do it quickly and it takes a lot of energy.

Mm-hmm.

For me to figure out what that system is. And because it takes a lot of energy, I may not enjoy it much either. I love the end product, but getting there and figuring it out is harder. There's other talents that come just as easily to me that might be different from you. So I wanna say, like, we need people like you to help us with that organization and that system. And that's why having a system like yours is so helpful because I don't have to spend so much energy figuring it out. When you can bring your talent into my life and ease my stress and anxiety by kind of giving me the system, or at least giving me half of it. So as far as what's challenging for me, knowing that about me and my personality, I would say it's a number of things. It is, I mean, if I think about like on a macro scale, you know, I was driving home, we got lucky enough to be in this house for 2 assignments. That's never happened before. we were trying to have stabilization to get our last kid graduated and him not move in the middle of his high school. And we were able to do that, thankfully. But I was driving home last night and I had this thought. I'm, I'm doing that like mindless driving thing where I'm not even thinking about the turn that's coming up because I just have turned there a million times and I'm gonna turn. And, and I had this thought last night, I'm gonna miss that. I'm gonna miss Like, the ease of driving through the town and knowing exactly where I'm going. And I've had these other thoughts of, like, as I walk into a room and flip the light switch on, every time you move, you're like, where's the darn light switch?

Like...

Yeah.

I don't know where it is.

And it's a— you compound all of these things, everything from dentist to— I mean, I've gone to the next salon person, and they've just destroyed my hair, right? You know? And so there's these big changes of just establishing your routine again. It is these little tiny things that you take for granted. It is about us thinking, are we gonna live on the installation where we are going to go into a neighborhood of other people that we have something in common with? Or— but that may mean that we sacrifice space and sacrifice other things to be in that place. Or do we move off the installation where we—

Right.

We're in another neighborhood. We don't know anybody. So as far as the organization of the PCS, it is a joyous and daunting task to look at your house and realize you've got to go room by room and purge and clean out everything that you can. And knowing that these things that you are preparing for movers to come in and move for you, Any one of these things could get broken and lost. And we have a huge issue in our military community of things of not just, I mean, we've definitely had furniture broken and lost. I have my grandmother's hutch that has made it so far. We've had friends where the truck got like pulled over in a hurricane and they lost everything. Everything was flooded and water damage and, and just destroyed. And so, you kind of walk around your house going, I'm kind of comfortable. I don't want to go anywhere. And if I do go anywhere, I want it to be my choice. And yet, this is not my choice. I'm not, you know, I'm excited to go to San Antonio. I've got a couple people I know there. But would I choose San Antonio if it was my choice? And here's where the complexity and the grief comes up is also—

Mm-hmm.

You have this in the back of your head, your family, maybe even civilians who maybe aren't military connected, that would look at your life and go, but you did make the choice. You did make the choice to join the military. So what are you complaining about? And so it's complicated in that these— it is our choice to serve the nation. And it's also— there's a lot of hardships of things that we are forced to adapt when— And I'll share this one last thing, and I'm not trying to make this a pity party, but since you asked what's hard—

I asked, I asked.

I was watching some HGTV movie or show. It was like a fixer-upper kind of thing, you know? And this sweet little young couple with young children had invited some designer to come in and redo their living room. And I just was watching this family, and I was both jealous. And also, I had this mixture of feelings that came up because I thought how convenient and how nice that would be to find a home that you love and to invest in it and to dream about it and to want to have someone come in and create a space that's just for your kids and it's what you chose.

Yeah.

Now, there are wonderful, wonderful spouses like Maria Reed. She has a show online called Moving with the Military where she goes in and she completely will transform a space for a military family so that it feels like home. And so we do have this ability to recreate these spaces and make them home. But I'm just being transparent that with this This move coming up for me, I just had the very real feeling within me that I'm going to have to make some sacrifices on my expectations and that I'm going to have to do the hard work to switch in my head to look for the things that I'm excited about and the spaces that I can create, even if it's not a space that I would've chosen. So that's me giving you my pity party. It's up to you whether or not we balance it with the strengths. We have to think of those too. But I'm grateful for people like Maria Reid, who, again, these stressors are the things that are weaknesses for me. There's a lot of military spouses that see this lifestyle as an adventure, and it can be. And we all have to, all of us, whether in the military or not, when we are facing change, it's easy for all of us, whether it's changes in our nation right now, changes in your job, in your parenting season, whatever change season you're going through right now, it's important to grieve it, feel it, process it, and then kind of when you get to the end of that, make a choice to go, all right, now I'm gonna climb out of that and I'm gonna bring purpose and I'm going to look for the things that I can enjoy. Otherwise, I'm not gonna be somebody I like hanging around.

Myself. Yeah, the resilience of military family, all military family members, is just, just unbelievable. I will tell you, I've lived in my house for 28 of the 29 years that we've been married. So I, I've thought about moving. We've looked at open houses. There's even a lot I know where it would be that we would build, and we don't because, Corey, I don't want to move. I just do not want to move my stuff.

Yeah.

I wouldn't have to move anything except my stuff. All of my services would stay the same, and I still am not doing it. So, um, you look at the organization behind me. Yeah, it's really nice when you organize something and it's going to stay organized.

Um, you know what I'm excited about, Lisa? When we retire someday, I'm excited to have glass. Like, we avoid buying anything glass because we know that we're gonna have to move. So we— and like, all the news out there says you shouldn't buy plastics, you know? So I'm like, we're just gonna die of cancer before we even get to buy No, but it's— I'm being silly, but it's those little things that you're like, I'm going to wait to buy that nice furniture when we're out because we're going to have to move again.

So Elaine Willig, she's going to be on the podcast next. She is the one that recommended your book to me. She is the one that made this introduction. And we started talking about how Organized 365 could really make a difference in military service members' lives. She has mentioned many of the things that you did. She's like, oh, we got to video every room when you move. And then you've got to do this list. I'm like, why? She goes, well, because everything, everything's broken. Like, it may not even show up or come 6 months later and whatever. I was like, what? Like, like, every time we started talking more and more about how we organize the PCSing, she was like, okay, well, put down that you got to find your emergency contact on day 1. I'm looking at her and she goes, well, yeah, you've got to go find a human wherever you are and say, will you be my emergency contact? I was like, what? He's like, yeah, well, who else is going to do it? And I'm, I mean, I have to tell you, we have been doing this for the last 6 months trying to figure out how to do, we do planning days. So how do you do a planning day for PCSing? I thought this is going to be easy. We just organize a move. No, you guys know how to move. Nobody knows how to move. Like the planning day is going to be all about the emotions and the processing and the grief and the leaving this and then finding the new and finding your emergency contact, things that I never have never crossed my mind before. Like, it just never crossed my mind before because I just did not understand, A, the complexity of moving more than, you know, a mile away, and B, you don't even have a choice where you go. Like, you could— they say, here are your options, and like, you rank order them, but they tell you when you go, when you go, when you show up, when your, your military service member goes, whether you're going with them or not. Like, there's so much complexity to this. And you mentioned earlier, I wanted to kind of, uh, point this out, that as a licensed professional, I noticed on your resume you're licensed in many states and not all of the states that you live in. And you mentioned that you kind of like made your career in part of the military because of the moving. Uh, one of the things that I've talked to both Doug and Elaine Willig about is this, this licensure. If you are a teacher, if you are a Licensed professional and you move states or you move countries, often you can't even get a job where you're going because you'd have to renew or reinstate your license. Is there anything you want to share about that?

Yeah, you know, I think things are getting a little bit better. Um, when I was in, like, really your license or your certification is bound to that state because the state is obligated to protect its citizens in that state more than their They're to protect the clinician. They're protecting their citizens in that state. And so when you'd move, you would have to transfer your license. And there continues to be archaic ways to transfer a license because every state has a different set of rules. And for example, I have been serving and been a clinician for almost 20 years. I'm a supervisor for the state of Virginia for other clinicians. But I cannot go to California and get a license in California. They would make me go back to school, um, and, and like take 3 more classes to get— like, we're talking master's level that I did 20 years ago— in order to, to qualify for a license in California. Or when my— when I moved to Texas, um, they said that I needed more supervision, but yet I'm supervising other clinicians in another state, but now I need supervision. a year more of— so all these states have different rules. And so it's been very complicated, and we've been at war, you know, with this topic for a very long time. There's some new initiatives that are coming out where they're saying, for the sake of serving our military community, they're now saying that a military family, if they're working with, let's say, a mental health clinician, and they— that family relocates, that you can continue to work with that clinician back in that last state for a certain amount of time. And that's definitely helping so that things aren't cut off and everything is disrupted. So there are a couple things that they're working on. But for most of our families, this is— and, you know, everybody says, well, doesn't this get solved by just making one federal license? But then that takes away the state rights, which is why we all agree that there's benefit to being in the United States, that each state has their own sovereignty. And that that's important and valuable, and we don't want to mess with that. So it's a very complicated question and wicked problem to solve. But for a lot of our families, when we're moving, you know, a lot of those professionals that are moving, it can really set— and it's not just about setting back your career. You're talking about taking a dual-income family. Think about those of you who are listening right now that are dependent on dual And this is not just moving across town and you can continue to work or take 2 weeks off to move your family across town. When you move to another state, that spouse could go for at least 6 months, if not— I mean, I know it took me 18 months one time to transfer a license by the time— so I could not work in that state doing that job until I get that license. Well, 18 months in, I'm getting orders to move.

We're moving.

So now you're moving, but you're taking away half the income of the household, hence going back to the previous conversation about some of our enlisted families who are struggling with food insecurity. So these are some of the complexities and some of the variables that are included in that.

Yeah, I was just talking with someone before our conversation started. You know, we're recording this in early February of 2025, so there have been a lot of executive orders coming down from the federal government, which is creating a lot of chaos because there's a lot of change too fast and people can't process it. So we were discussing it. I was discussing it with a friend and I was like, oh, oh, I have been viewing all this from like a political lens of like, this is what Congress does, this is what our president does. Now we've got a president who's a business owner that's making sweeping changes like you would do in business, but you wouldn't do in, in politics. And so it's out of character. And so it's very hard for us to process. However, I then thought about it as a business owner, and I thought, okay, you know, in business— so out of the military, in business— we have these ebbs and flows of who has more control, the employer or the employee. And you kind of see these shifts go back and forth, like it's an employer's market, it's an employee's market, or in housing, like it's a buyer's market, it's a seller's market. But we don't see this between the state and the federal government. It's always the federal government's market and the states fall in line, except for California, who's like, and we'll do whatever we want. And sometimes Texas.

And Texas.

If you look at Texas and California, they're more like, okay, well, we're part of your United States.

That's why they're all coming here.

We'll secede at any chance we get. So if you look at those states, you can see, yeah, they kind of do whatever they want. Well, the balance in Washington, what's happening is the current president, President Trump, forcing a state market. And what I would guess is going to happen is you're going to see a lot of really strong governors and states that have not really had strong state policies say, great, well, if it's, if it's our job, then we'll do it. I mean, you just saw this with Roe v. Wade, when that is not a federal issue, it is now a state issue. All the states made a decision. They all made a decision. And so we are a United States, but the federal government unifies us. And that federal government is purposely right now getting weaker. And so you're going to see stronger states. And this is where you have the problem in the military. The military is federal.

Yes.

And the states are states.

Yes.

And so as the military moves into each state, the state's not gonna change their, uh, rules. However, I do have an idea for them. You know, if you are on a military base overseas, we can ship packages to you cuz it goes through the US Postal Service cuz you're considered American on foreign soil. So why couldn't U.S. bases have— you could get a military license or an education license for the military base. I think that would possibly resolve.

We have talked about that on—

I had a good idea.

Yeah, well, and because, um, for the longest time— remember when I said the military tends to be 10 years behind? For the longest time, military spouses were not allowed to have their own businesses on the installation because you can't You can't solicit, you can't sell to other families, you can't post flyers, you can't do any of those things. And because it's also federal property. And so then that became, you know, then spouses were like, well, we're doing it anyways. You can't control us because we're civilians or not service members. So we're going to do whatever we want.

Yeah.

We like now all have like remote jobs running businesses out of our house, right? So there was talk about, well, what if you can provide a federal license and there, that's kind of gone back and forth and nobody's ever made a good firm decision on that for licenses. But really, I think some of it comes down to, we, I do believe that we have an obligation as a nation to make sure our military is thriving and is taken care of. That is how the nation gives back. Like, can I just say to anyone listening, that is how you give back and how you say thank you.

Yeah.

I love, Lisa, that you said thank you, and we had that beautiful exchange. But from a national perspective, just like in World War II, the way that you give back is to, as they come back into your community, to give back to them, whether that's buying, you know, buying from their businesses or supporting whatever it is that they're doing, or just if you're a medical professional, that you are, you are helping them get well again. And so we— this goes back and forth as far as federal licenses and that sort of thing. But the problem is, is that the spouses are not the service members. member. They did not take an oath to the Constitution, and the DOD is not responsible for the health and well-being of the spouse and their choice to be employed. And this is where you see that codependent relationship, because we need them to be well, we want them to be able to get jobs because that supports the mission and mission success. But because you didn't become the service member, we can't use— going back to your first question— use our bucket of money. To help in that way because that bucket of money is earmarked for, you know, national security. Now, there is buckets of money for family readiness, for family programming, and we see some of that stuff in helping spouses cope. We have wonderful programs that do provide career coaching to spouses. Like, we have been able to pull off those kinds of things, but creating a space for their jobs— now we're talking about, are we creating jobs? So it gets very complicated. But if we— when we do have the support of Congress and the administration to value spouses and make things easier— I'll say this last thing because I know you want to talk about PCSing. I will say this with the executive orders that came out. You know, we can all find points of agreement on how to budget money, how to save money, how to make good business decisions.

Yeah.

But the executive order on— let's just use— everybody stick with me, don't turn it off. But the executive order on DEIA that ceased all programming with any specialized attention towards any culture or people group, that included spouse preference for federal jobs. So for spouses who were struggling in their career with all those work gaps, But we're qualified for jobs because we tend to be underemployed. Like, we tend to go for jobs that we overqualify for. So a lot of spouses were saying, hey, I'm culturally competent. I understand the military. I'll come into a government job and work for the government. And a lot of our wonderful— we have wonderful, very competent, highly high-performer spouses in our— in the DOD.

Yeah.

But in order for them to do those jobs, they have to be remote positions. And so not only did this— the spouse preference angle was, hey, let's, let's look, let's be willing to look at spouse resumes instead of just setting them aside because they have work gaps that look like they're not qualified.

Mm-hmm.

Let's take this population that is 30% unemployed and give their resumes a chance. That's what that spouse preference was for. And spouses were getting employed in federal work. But that one executive order took away spouse preference and took away the remote positions. So now you have a whole community, a culture of military spouses serving the country that have a 10-year setback on working.

And it's an opportunity for the private sector to then Yes, thank you.

That was a great point.

Very equipped and very capable and very dedicated.

Yes.

Spousal members of the service. And I think, you know, it's so hard to talk apolitically when it's like you're walking—

Personal.

Landmines. It's personal.

Yeah, it is.

And there's not a single person within 10 weeks that is not going to be personally touched by everything that's happening in Washington, D.C. However, at the same time, we don't have enough money.

Yes.

And so, we do have to make some changes. And, you know, how do we make those changes? You know, I was talking with this other person offline and we were talking about the education conversation. I love to have these conversations because I think often the answer is not what we used to do or more of what we're currently doing. It's something completely new. So, you know, I'm thinking just like in licensure, and I know you're a member of the APA, I'm a member of the APA, the American Psychological Association. They create all of the different coursework that we need to take. Like, I would say that it's the job of the APA, which is private institution, to come up with a license for military spouses that you could then get from the APA and that the military could then recognize. And then while your spouse is active military, your APA military license is in effect. And not all states are going to recognize it, but, you know, 25 to 30 would.

Yeah.

And so those 25 to 30 that you're in would then be able to do that. Just like a teacher's license. I live in Ohio.

Yeah.

So when you have an Ohio teacher's license, Indiana and Kentucky will accept that teacher's license. Same thing. How many states will go together and say, okay, if you're licensed in Ohio, you're also licensed in these 25 states? There are always going to be those outlier states that aren't going to do it. But even if you could have 8 a private institution say, okay, I mean, licensure isn't federal. It's not federal. So the, the solution is not necessarily federal. You're making them federal make a solution for something that's a private problem. So the private enterprise really is having the opportunity. States are having the opportunity, and private enterprise is having the opportunity to step up and do some of the things that maybe they haven't done because the federal government has done it. It's easier, or it's a lot of work. It's a little messy. I mean, you'd be surprised how fast you can do things at a state level and a private level. So I just call on everybody who's in those positions to think outside the box. Like, if there's a problem that's coming up now because the federal government cannot or will not do it, what can you do? What can your area do? And this, this could be solved more permanently, um, from this instance.

Yeah, no, I, I so agree with that. And I had the opportunity to testify in front of the Texas House and, um, on this topic In particular. And I mean, if we go to a higher plane here, really, this is— I think my biggest message this week is regardless of where you land on values and politics and everything, our whole culture globally has become so individualistic and so comfortable with everybody, especially since COVID with everyone at a distance.

Yes. Right.

To the point that if you are in close proximity with somebody you don't know, you almost feel offended, like, you're taking up my space, right? Back, you know, and so the answer to all of this, to our wellness, to our health, to the military, to the concerns of all these people groups that you're seeing in the news, like, the whole— if we go to a higher level here, we have got to get to a place where we take care of each other. Period.

Yes.

Amen. We have to be willing to— we don't have to agree. We just have to be willing to listen. And when we listen to someone else's struggle, we've gotta get away from, I don't need to care about this unless it touches me personally.

Mm-hmm.

Because our ability to allow our hearts to swell for someone else, we— doesn't mean that we have to be responsible for helping everyone. None of us are a mini god where we can do that.

Yes.

So we really just have to be able to go, you know what, I may not be able to help your situation, but I am willing to listen and be aware of it. And so as these states and private institutions and nonprofits are going to step in and say, you know what, maybe we can do something about it if we're just willing to entertain the thought.

Yeah.

And I think everybody feels a little bit of this. But I can just say from my foxhole, having to testify in front of the House and beg them to see the problem, beg them to value the problem and see that they could be a very easy solution with minimal cost. I mean, the only thing I was asking them to do was put a checkbox on a form. Like, can you just put a checkbox on a form that says I'm a military spouse? And that when that checkbox is checked, Then the staff moves it a little faster across the desk. Like, can we just do that? It doesn't take any money. No money at all, right?

Yeah.

So it's all this creativity that comes together when we're just willing to listen and see each other as humans again.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think we can close out on, on that. This idea, what came to mind as you were talking is one of our values in the company is proactive anticipation. And I feel most of us live our lives reactively. And I have this overwhelming dread right now that so many Americans in particular are going to check out and numb out because they're not in charge of the change. They're afraid of the change. They don't understand the change. And they're used to reacting and responding. And I call you to not do that.

Yeah.

We are— America is a nation of people. People. And we are all one vote, one person. We are all very important. We all have a lot of ideas. We all have a lot of solutions. We're extremely creative. We're extremely entrepreneurial. And if you move from reactive to proactive, you move from, oh my gosh, this is happening to me. This is terrible. We should talk about it too. Like, okay, that's how we did it, but is that how we're going to do it in the future? So this conversation I was having this morning was all around education. And you can imagine how that conversation went. At the end of that conversation, I said, you know what? A lot of how education is done today is because it's done in a building, and all these things happen in a building, and you think everything that happens in a school building is education, but it's not.

Yeah.

It's a bunch of different pots of money. It's a bunch of different initiatives. It's a bunch of different things. And this is where we locate children, so we do a bunch of services in this building because they're there. But when you really want to take education apart, we need to look at all the services and all the things and what we've done for 100 years, and should we even be doing it anymore? And we're going to do that with everything right now because the president is going to make us.

Yeah.

And so when you think about the military and you think about this conversation, and maybe you do work at the national level of the APA and you're like, oh, we never thought about having a certification or adding on a certification while military spouses are in active duty. Maybe that's not as big of a lift as we think. And that's gonna move. I mean, it might take a couple of years, but it's not gonna take 20. You see what I'm saying? As I'm in my, PhD, I realized we don't move very fast in academia. I think we might move a little bit faster than in government, but we're not moving like an entrepreneur over there. Just a little bit faster. Um, but we do, we have so many mental health needs. We need more clinicians. We desperately need more clinicians. And so when COVID happened, I think pretty quick we were able to check the box that you were able to do telehealth, right?

Yes.

And you're able to get in different states. So we have proven we know how to do this, APA. So hello, could you please Move it along for this other thing that is going to need help. And then also, like, local governments, state governments, private employment— instead of thinking that this is happening to me and this is terrible, we need to fight and we need to try to go backwards— we're not going backwards, people. We're going forward. So if we have to change anyway, because we're going to have to change, what do we want it to be? Like, dream about what could be possible.

Yeah.

And if we're not going to go back to the 1950s where you end up on the base and, like, they're welcoming you with Homemade cookies. How can we do that? And so that's what I'm gonna talk to Elaine about in the next podcast.

Yeah.

About how we could take this planning day experience that works for people that are organizing their homes and how can we kind of layer on this proactive thinking and making sure that we leave our position in the military in one base without any regrets, making sure we had the goodbye parties and got all the pictures taken and did all the things in that location that we wanted to.

Yeah.

And then proactively, positively anticipate where we're going in the future and what our family's needs are gonna be so that they are met when we get to the new location and we could start building that community faster. Because as I heard Elaine talk, or I even hear you, you talk, I mean, you love where you are right now, but you were apprehensive when you first got there. So how do we move you faster from the apprehensive to the loving it? Because you are going to miss it when you leave the next place as well. And, and see if there are any ways in which we could do some of that thinking processing. You're gonna get a little bit of how you actually move in the planning day, because I have a good amount of checklists, but I'm not telling you like how to label the boxes or any of that kind of thing. It's more of the thinking work of—

I cannot wait to see that material. And can I just, um, maybe close with this? Um, you know, you brought up how reactive we've become, and maybe I can just give a challenge to those of you who are listening. that it's okay for you to have the values that you have, the stances that you have, the things that are important to you, because so much of what's happening in our culture deeply impacts everyone in different ways.

Yes.

Um, and, and whichever touchpoints those are, we are going to be reactive. We're gonna have a lot of emotions that connect to that too. My encouragement and challenge would be, On these things that are so important to you as you see changes rolling out, to just ask yourself a follow-on question, which is, who is going to be the people group that implements this thing that is so important to me? And then just be mindful of the people that have to be the ones charged to make it happen. From a military perspective, one of my biggest concerns right now, whether you agree with it or not, or wherever you stand on the immigration that we have is we have so many service members that are already deployed that are actively deporting immigrants. And it's— they don't get to have a say-so on what they believe about that, where they stand on either side, even though they have some kind of opinion on it. But they have been charged to— that's their mission right now to do that. But I just want to kind of throw out there Some of the people— well, I'll say it this way. When the Afghanistan exit happened, which was so difficult to watch happen, our amazing community succeeded, even though it felt like a failure, succeeded at rescuing and helping thousands of visa-holding Afghan citizens and maybe U.S. citizens to get them and rescue them out of Afghanistan. And that was a huge effort that was quite emotional for them to be a part of. And that's going to resurrect some feelings as they are now loading up people and taking them back, taking them back to other countries. So imagine just kind of this people group that is very well known for rescuing people in oppressive situations out of certain countries, And now we are putting them back on a plane and having to take them back somewhere. Regardless of what you feel or what your opinions are, that's some of the questions that our community is having to wrestle through. And that service member comes home and takes off that uniform and goes to the fridge, hopefully doesn't crack open a beer, instead—

Right.

Anything else, and sits on the couch next to his or her partner, wife, And, and then they have a conversation. What kind of conversations might they be having? Whether they are feeling proud of what they accomplished or whether they have questions about what they accomplished, either way, they don't get to leave that house and actually express those thoughts and opinions that perhaps you as an American citizen have that freedom and right to be able to express it freely. So that would just be my question and challenge is whether it's it's about slimming down the government or saving money, or whether it's about immigration or education or any of these very big, important topics that are important to all of us, just ask yourself the question, who needs to implement those? And allow your heart to just swell for that people group that maybe have to implement change. We've talked about that today, how hard change can be for anyone. So I think that when we allow our hearts to swell, we find a little bit of our humanity back again. And maybe That's the beginning.

I can't add anything to that. Cori, thank you again for your service, this amazing book, Culture— Military Culture Shift, um, and your time today on the podcast. Just thank you so much. Thank you for your gift of the story. Thank you for this wonderful conversation, and thank you for you and your family's service.

Thank you, Lisa, for having me. Wonderful conversation.