12 Steps For Giving Feedback

That was the whole precedence of feedback is that in order to start making feedback a normal part of your life, which is very, very important because we don't grow without it and our company can't grow without it. Not giving feedback is a huge bottleneck in your business and your relationships. And we're back with another episode of He Said, she Said.

Or should it be He Said, Sneeze Said.

Oh God.

Because we were just trying to record this. And every time she went to hit record, she'.

It is end of August in the Midwest, which I'm pretty sure is like hay fever. I don't even know.

I wish people can see how you look at me right now. Your head is cocked sideways, look like a pirate. Your eyes watering.

You're like allergies.

Yeah.

Literally. That is a allergy pirate face right now.

Yeah, it is. It's unfortunate we only have two weeks left up here. I know, it's kind of crazy. I am ready to get back.

I'm 100% ready to get back.

Which means it served its purpose, which is incredible. To go and be out in nature and recharge and do family and all the fun stuff.

Every time I leave here I'm like the rubber band that is pulled all the way back and ready to like let go. Like holy crap. It was going to be momentum.

I think it's so important. You know, I. I know like Europeans do summers away a lot and even if it's month long vacation. Yeah. Like they go away or to a summer home or they go rent something. Like a lot of families, no matter what their income, it's like a normal part of how they grew up was shut down. Yeah.

The dry cleaner shuts down, the restaurants shut down the library. Like everything shuts down in August.

Typically there now maybe that's not everyone, but it is really interesting because it's such a beautiful energy switch up and just like environment change up and change of pace. And it truly has made me more excited about work and life. Like it's made me even more excited about my goals. So I think it's a really important thing to think about. Like even if that recharge looks like two weeks, but I don't think you can do it in less than 2 sometimes I think you might need longer. But it's not that we're not working up here, it is that we are going and doing something different. Right.

We don't find ourselves working until 6 or 7 o' clock at night and then going to take our walk. We find ourselves working till 5 o' clock and then go getting on the boat together. Go wake sir.

Right, right, right, right.

It's a very different energy, you know.

Right. So today we are going to talk about feedback. We're going to talk about giving feedback. See? Oh, this is so amazing. So I just did a keynote into Growth Day, which, if you guys don't know, it's a personal development app. That's incredible. It has everywhere that you can journal with journaling prompts, and it has keynotes from incredible speakers like Ed Mylett, Jenna Kutcher, Brendon Burchard, and it's like the most incredible spot for just about everything that you could ever imagine learning, like, true masterclasses. And I go in there all the time to find masterclasses on different things that I want to learn or talk about. And so you can go to the Growth Day app, which is in the show notes or. And you can try it for free, actually. But I just gave my keynote into it because I keynote into it every single month. And the keynote was all about feedback. And, you know, right when you said, ooh, should I be scared? That was the whole precedence of feedback is that in order to start making feedback a normal part of your life, which is very, very important, because we don't grow without it, and our company can't grow without it, not giving feedback is a huge bottleneck in your business and your relationships, and the way that you perceive it is gonna be a lot about how you share that perception to your company and your culture and your relationships. So I know that you were joking with your cringe face, like, oh, no. But most people are not, because they perceive it as negative, where feedback is actually one of the only ways to grow. So if we started to view it that way, that's where we're gonna start. Is feedback being a really important foundation for growth in general and changing the way that we look at feedback?

Well, this is interesting. If you ever listen to Gary Vee speak on a regular basis or listen to his podcast, people say, hey, man, you're so good at everything. He says, no, I'm not. He goes, my biggest weakness is candor and feedback. He said, it got me into a lot of trouble and it really hurt my businesses quite a bit. And I had to learn how to start operating in loving candor, which is feedback. He had to learn how to not avoid feedback and pretend that everything's okay, but instead how to have those conversations and give the feedback when feedback is necessary. He said his business has been exponentially better ever since he got that figured out.

And we know that even for our marriage, there was a point where we were about two years into our marriage and the way that I had seen growing up, people deal with tough conversations was to run, to go shut themselves in a bedroom, to leave, to get in the car and, you know, go stay at a hotel or whatever that looks like. And it wasn't the best relationship. And so, you know, when we first got married, two years in, this was the form that I used in everything in prior relationships as well. And one day you said to me, like, we're not gonna make it through this. Like, if we're not able to have tough conversations, then this isn't going to work out. Like, it already is not working out right now. So you said, if you leave, don't come back. And that was. I was like, so hurt. But also in that moment, I was like, this is not working. And things prior to you in my relationships did not work. And so it was the moment of we have to have tough conversations. And Tim Ferriss has that amazing quote. Your level of success will be determined by the amount of tough conversations that you're willing to have in a day. So it's not a week, it's not a month, it's literally a day. So where there's smoke, that's when you have the conversation. And we also know in our business that we took years of not having tough conversations and guess what? We had to do lay people off, not get the work that we wanted, not be in good relationships, relationships because of us. So yes, of course, maybe that person may not have been able to handle it. We don't know. We don't know because we didn't do it. So how important feedback is. So let's talk about 12 steps of feedback. So the first one is to be clear. And don't sugarcoat it. Just being straightforward because clear is kind and aiming for precision.

That's interesting. So I don't know if you. Well, of course you remember. I mean, I was gonna say, I don't know if you remember. Of course you remember. But people listening, I don't know if you know this about me or not, but I had to spend a year during the recession flying around to random cities where we had bank branches. And I didn't walk in in the morning, say, hey guys, we shut you down. I apologize. I know this is not a great message. I'm gonna tell each of you one on one, what your severance package is. And I did it to about a thousand people over the course that year, one by one. And what I learned that real quickly was that people want you to be direct. They don't want you to tell them how sorry you are. They don't want to. Don't make it about you. Don't talk about how hard it is.

Do not talk about how hard it is to give that feedback. It's not about you.

But you go right to the point. I'm here to let you go. Here's what you're going to be getting. And I will answer any questions you have whatsoever. And I'm incredibly sorry that we put you in that position. That's it.

In fact, for me, some of the easiest ways to open the conversation is to even acknowledge how I feel about feedback. Like, hey, feedback is not negative or positive. It's about growth. So this is why I want to tell you blankety blank, blank, blank. And it's just like a great segue for me to start having that conversation. Like, this isn't a negative thing, it's a growth thing.

I thought something else related to that too. When you are known for giving feedback on a regular basis, then it's not shocking or scary or a negative thing to people. But if you've always avoided feedback, now they're shocked that you're gonna be honest with them. And it feels like a negative.

Yeah, it feels like an ambush.

The first one can suck. The first one can feel like an ambush. But at some point in your life, you better start getting feedback on a regular basis or your life's gonna get more and more and more and more of a mess. You guys are gonna say, why does this keep happening to me?

I do feel like there is a bit of a way to prevent that ambush by having it or talking about that. You want to incorporate it as a company core value and say, this is what I wanna start doing. So that it's like an expectation. Okay, this is coming. And then in your relationship, if you haven't done it, kind of just start saying, I really want to start fostering this in our relationship so that we make sure we're always growing together. And so this is what it's going to look like. And I think you just set that expectation so they know it's coming and it doesn't feel like a crazy ambush. Okay, number two, write out your ideas and points beforehand. This one is really important to me because when I'm in a tough conversation, my emotion takes over and I kind of forget what I even wanted to tell them. And it doesn't seem that bad. At the moment, because now emotions are really high and I'm like, oh, maybe I'll just skip it. And I don't say all of the points that I wanted to make sure I leave that meeting saying so. Number three, be as specific as possible and use examples. So I know sometimes I've gotten feedback and it's like, hey, it's very vague, so I don't actually know what I'm doing wrong. Instead of, like, using an example like, hey, Mary, I noticed yesterday that you were gossiping about someone or you were talking about someone. Maybe you don't even say gossip. Maybe you say talking about someone, not to the person. So next time, we know that a core value is to have candid conversations. So make sure you're not talking about that person. You go directly to them. Boom, done. It's in the moment, it's clear, it's concise. And you used an example.

I would add to that. Don't use broad strokes in the brush or I should say definitive terms like always. You always do this. Or all. All of your work has been because there's exceptions. And then your feedback is invalid in their ears when there's even one out of ten exceptions.

Right.

So don't use those all encompassing, definitive terms. Be very specific, like you were just.

Saying, even with your partner. I know you and I have, like, had really rough, like, experiences on this because we have used that language. I know. I've used it for you. I know that it makes everything that you've done feel like it's wiped out. Like, all the good wiped out. And it's a really. It's just going to add fuel to the fire. Yeah. It makes you put up your wall and not be able to hear what people are saying. So if it's something very specific, like, hey, I know that you are probably not trying to mean to do this, but when you leave your clothes on the floor, it really feels like you're not respecting the work that I did around the house. Just something like that. Like, very, very clear.

Oh, my God. I never leave my clothes on the floor.

They're always on the floor. But we've also found you just said the word always. I really did.

Turn around and look. Do you see any clothes on the floor right now?

Our housekeeper is presently here and just cleaned our room.

Doesn't matter. Do you see any clothes on the floor right now?

You're hilarious. And I'm sorry that I said always. This is really funny. I just totally got caught. Okay, number four, avoid the feedback sandwich. So I've been thinking a lot about this because I really have been taught to do this. But the more that I've thought about it, I talked about this with my sister in law Jackie this morning and she's in hr. And then I listened to a bunch of stuff on Radical Candor and the book by Kim Scott. And this is really confusing for people. So when they've been asked after they get the feedback sandwich, which is essentially, it's called the shit sandwich. So it's a compliment, critique, compliment. And when they leave that, they say, I don't actually know if that was like a meeting about things I did good or if they really mean that they want me to do the thing and it just elongates the meeting. So if you already have built trust among that person, you don't need to do compliment, critique, compliment. They already know that you care. They know why you're giving the feedback is because you want to help them improve. So it's like go straight for it and thank them for being open.

Well, that's a tough one because it's counterintuitive. Intuitively you want to, you want to start by welcome, you know, like showing them you appreciate them and you want to end on high even if you have to give something bad. So like it's like you want to say, hey, you're not a complete piece of shit, but here's where you're shitty. But also I'm encouraged that you won't be shitty in the future and don't do the shit sandwich. Like, this is truly. Just tell them what's wrong.

I mean, do we do that to each other? It's kind of like more direct. It's like, so here's the thing. I think you're thinking in terms of when you have a check in meeting, like a review, A review, you're right. And so yes, a review, that's important because it's a review of all of the good. And then if you have the bad, you kind of want to do that a little later and then maybe end the review with like a high note. But this is about giving frequent feedback in the moment, like really having a culture of it and a relationship of that. So you don't need to do all of those things and do the compliment, critique, compliment, shit sandwich. Okay, number five, share your intention and desired outcome from the start. For me, this is really huge in personal relationships and also I do use it in teammate relationships as well. So I just communicate my intent and desire. Like, hey, I want to have this conversation with you. Because I want to deepen our relationship or I want us to grow together or I want you to really grow in the company. So state your intention and desire and know that the intention and desired outcome is not that I want you to leave the company or you're not going to be here unless that is. Then use that. That's a very different conversation from today. That's not included in this. But if your intention really is to grow and to help them get better, state it's.

I love that.

Number six.

That makes it easier to deliver, too, by the way.

Yes. It gives you like this. Like, okay, you know that I care about you. And the. That really is the foundation for all feedback is the person has to know that you care. All right, number six, setting the environment. Just make sure it's comfortable. Yes. Dinner, pasta, chocolates. So just make sure you're not. If someone's sensitive, please don't deliver this in a coffee shop with everyone around. Like they're going to feel like it's kind of an ambush. Or maybe they're going to have some emotions because I've given feedback back where people cry or I have cried. Right. And you don't want to have to do that in a coffee shop. Just make sure you're conscious of who it is.

They don't cry. It's not like crying.

They might cry anyway. Number seven, capacity check. This is more like personal relationships and family. Assess if the person can even handle or benefit from the feedback that you want to give.

Interesting.

Because that just might need to be a personal boundary in your life.

Yeah.

Like they may not even be able to take it and.

Or handle it.

Yeah.

So you're not going to have any good come out of it.

If you know you've tried this before and it doesn't work, this just might need to be a boundary or less time with that person.

It takes you a while to realize they're uncoachable, but once you realize they're uncoachable, stop the coaching.

And that might also be someone who you may not be able to have on your team anymore. Can this person even handle this feedback that we are about to give or that we need to give? Number eight, building trust. It's just like we said, the foundation. You have to cultivate this, though, through consistent and frequent feedback, negative and positive. So feedback doesn't have to be negative. Feedback is also positive. So in order for you to give them negative feedback, you have had to have built a relationship of trust through also frequent positive feedback. So that when you give the negative, even though it's not really negative. It's for growth. When you give the growth feedback, maybe you even change your language in your company. There's like positive feedback and then there's growth feedback. And you know that that's where you. There's going to be room for you to grow.

This one's crucial. You have to consistently be delivering them information, AKA feedback. Or if you only do when it's negative, they're going to grow to fear you every single time that you walk up to them.

Yeah. I use the example of our dogs, collars.

Yeah.

Where we're supposed to be giving feedback to them through the collar of negative and positive. So when they command, not when they don't do it. When we put the collar on. Bonkers. He's excited. When Ozzy gets his collar on, he's excited because he knows there's something coming. That's just a guide. It's just a guide. What are we going to do? What do I get to do? This is exciting. So, like making that trained into our brain. That feedback is both. It's both. It's not just negative. All right, number nine, timing and state of mind. Just be aware when you're talking to someone that you don't give it to someone. If it's like, you know they're having a really rough day or something just happened in their family or there's a family emergency. What day are you going to have it? Yeah.

Have that emotional intelligence to know that even though it's urgent to you, today might not be the day they're going to be able to receive it. And this is something you taught me a long time ago when we were having communication issues, when I, you know, sold part of the mortgage bank and came home and helped you grow your brand. Chris, it's not your message, whether it's right or wrong, it's the way you deliver it and the timing in which you deliver it. And that's stuck with me forever. And that's really what you're saying.

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Number 10 would be face to face interaction. Whenever possible, deliver it face to face. So next would be zoom. Then maybe next a phone call please. I really think avoid text at all costs. There's too much left up to. Yes. Too much left up to interpretation. They could just ghost you after that and not even let you have a conversation because they threw their wall up.

So not tell tone of voice in text.

No.

Maybe you can try to convey it with emojis, but that you don't use emojis when you're giving friggin feedback.

No. So always, always make sure it's at least at minimum over the phone. But I really think zoom or in person whenever possible. Number 11, just practice like start making this a conscious thing that whether you have to set reminders on your calendar, on your phone to practice giving good feedback and observing where you need to give some gross feedback and some really good signs of knowing where you have to give growth. Feedback is where you're feeling some resentment. And 12, the last one, don't draw it out. Just make this quick, concise and often.

Tear off the band aid.

Tear off the band aid. All right, you guys, we're so grateful for you and we are frequently using this 12 step program of giving feedback. Chris, any feedback for me?

No. You crushed it, babe.

He's looking at me like, where is this going? All right, we're so grateful for you and let us know if you use this. Like I always love to hear if you guys took this and had to use it on a team or you've noticed it in your relationships because this has been huge for us. It's actually been something that has unlocked so much just success and deeper connection in our life. Truly, I think it's been the key to us being together for. Oh my God, it's our anniversary literally this week for 19 years. 8-27-18. Oh, I told everyone 19, whatever. It's all a blurry guys, we're just together forever. So whatever.

Of feedback.

All right, we will see you next week. Thanks for being here.

Thanks for listening.