418: Free yourself of body blame, addiction and self-loathing with Dr. Morgan Francis

Hi, everyone. I'm so happy you've tuned into the show. Whether you have listened before or you're brand new, I'm so grateful for you. You have no idea. And this episode is brought to you by my Become Aligned course. And podcasts are amazing. And I know that you know that because you guys all listen to them, and I do, too. And sometimes they are not necessarily enough because while we're listening, sometimes we're passively listening and we're not actively listening. So the reason that Chris and I. Chris is my husband. The reason we've created this course is because we get asked so many questions outside of the podcast on how we started living the life that we live now. A life of happiness, of abundance, of really understanding that life is always full of problems every single day, but there's always a solution. And how do we shift back into a mindset that's going to keep us happy, keep us together, keep us successful, and keep us in thriving relationships? And that is what our, our Become Aligned course is about. You guys, we cover everything from mindset to the rituals that we do every single day. We talk about different energy sources that's really gonna provide you with lasting energy. We talk about your purpose and what that actually means, what it is and how it's ever changing. We're gonna tap into your beliefs, we're gonna show you how to build a tribe to support where you're going. And we're definitely going to talk about wealth, abundance, money, all of the good things, and how to sustain all of this. Because while, like I said, POD are absolutely awesome, you don't necessarily sit down and actually write out a plan for yourself. Because as much as I can sit here and tell you on the podcast, what we do and how much, how many different people that I can interview, it's important that you actually learn how to apply these things in your own life. So if you've been listening for a while and you are ready to go deeper and you really want to get some direct training and be able to dive into your life and yourself and your mindset, this is the course for you. I don't know about you, but I absolutely have points in my life where I don't know where I'm going. I don't know what I'm doing. Sometimes I hit walls where I don't necessarily feel happy anymore, and I haven't sat with myself long enough. I haven't really let myself think. I haven't written out how I actually feel. And so many people who took this course said that it was completely life changing and they revealed a lot of things about themselves, about them, about their. About their relationships that they weren't really looking at or they were avoiding. And it's about having those tough conversations, not only with other people, but really with yourself and knowing that you have the tools and the access to the tools. And we're going to teach you all of the tools that you need not only to move through things, but to actually thrive on the other side. So, you guys, I would love for you to join the aligned community. It's such a special group of human beings and you get lifetime time access. This is nine different modules where you're going to be working through each area of your life at your own pace. So you might need something on abundance, you might need more on, you know, money, you might need more on your purpose on your tribe. This is where you can really go deep on exactly what you need and make sure that you're not missing any of your blind spots. If you are feeling stuck or if you are wondering how everyone is doing it and how they're managing it all. This is a truly honest course about how to have a thriving life and manage and deal with all of the different problems that do come up in your life and understand that not everyone is going to support you and not everyone is for you and you are not for everyone. And that's okay. It's finding your people, it's forgiving yourself. It's creating a life of abundance and choosing your own purpose and your happiness. So, you guys, you can go to becomealigned.com that's becomealigned.com and you guys know that because you're listeners, I'm gonna give you an awesome deal and an awesome discount and I cannot wait to see you in that community. And also let me know if you join because it is such an awesome, awesome community. And also I'm really proud of this course. Chris and I poured our heart and our soul into this. Everything that we've done, everything that we've learned, we've invested so much into ourself that this is everything that we have applied in our lives. And if you want to know how we've done it, we put it all on the table. We've put it all in this course. So if you want to know, go check it out@becealigned.com so let's get into the show.

I just put myself out there with knowing that obviously rejection is possible, but if I don't put myself out there, regret feels worse.

Welcome to The Earn your happy podcast. I'm Lori Harder, founder of The Bliss Project, 3 Time Fitness World champion, fitness expert and cover model turned self love junkie, lifestyle entrepreneur and author. Each week I'll bring you a guest or a thought that will help you bust through your fears, connect to your soul and get focused and clear so you can elevate your life, business and relationships. We don't wait until we're ready for someone to tell us we're good enough. We take what we want and we anoint ourselves. Get ready to earn, own and unapologetically rock your happiness every single day. Are you with me?

Here we go.

Welcome to the show and my guest today is Dr. Morgan Francis. And I had the honor of seeing this woman speak.

And I will tell you that I.

Was sitting in my chair just blown away by her presence and her grace. And I knew that I wanted to have her on the podcast because of what she was sharing on stage and because of just the beingness that she was able to hold in the room among all of these incredible women and just so present. And this conversation today will definitely open your eyes a lot about just different eating disorders, addictions, mindset, and all of the different things that all of us are dealing with and how they show up in our lives and how we can push through different addictions or things that are holding us back. So Dr. Morgan Francis is a doctor of clinical psychology and a licensed mental health therapist. She's the owner of Scottsdale Premier Counseling. Her mission is to break through mental health shame. With over 20 years of experience specializing in the treatment of body image and eating disorders, Dr. Francis can empower you to make peace with your body and food. For too long, society has been embracing diet culture and pushing you to believe how you look is not good enough. And no matter how thin or fit you look, you can't outrun the pressures that surround you. The transformation of loving and appreciating your body happens internally, not externally. Dr. Francis says she has online courses on body image and self love that can help get you back to to your life. And this is definitely a lot of the conversation that we have not only around body image, but how so much of our beliefs around ourselves and our body image and food affect everything that.

We do in our life.

So I can't wait for you to listen in on this conversation.

Here we go. Morgan, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Thank you so much for having me here. I am really excited to be Here today.

One of the biggest reasons I'm excited to have you here is because I'm always really thrilled when I can get people on the podcast who I've actually gotten to meet and experience and gotten to hear you speak. We got to meet each other at Lindsay Schwartz's amazing event, Powerhouse Women. And first of all, I got to meet you, and you were just one of those people who I just. You can drop in right away, like, super comfortable, really down to earth, but also just like, wow, your presence is really powerful. And then when you are on stage, it's the same exact thing. It's powerful, but so incredibly approachable. And those are usually the women that I love the most.

Well, thank you so much. That means a lot to me coming from you, because I know that you have been around so many women, and, I mean, the powerhouse women's event, 2018, I mean, wasn't that the most incredible event?

I had so much fun, like, literally just a blast. And that's kind of where, you know, I know that when I'm having fun, it's when I really open up to learning and connecting. So I know that that wasn't just created by me being like, I'm gonna be fun today. It was because everybody held the same intention, and Lindsay really held that intention for everyone and all of her speakers to bring in people who were really down to earth and open and, you know, to the vision. So it was super special.

It really was. And for me, too, my journey really came so, you know, full circle, because I was in the audience the year prior to that. Never met Lindsay, and she had asked for feedback after the 2017 event. And I emailed her, and she reached back out to me, and she asked me to go to coffee, and she. We just talked, and I told her about my passion of body image and what I stand for. And then she asked me if I would like to be a speaker at the event. And I really had no clue what that would entail until the actual day of the event. And it was magnificent. And then I had no clue what it would mean after the event and all the attention and all the effect of what I spoke about would have on women. So it really was such an amazing opportunity, and I feel really honored that I got to be a part of it.

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So what do you think happened? Like, because this is such a beautiful takeaway for people, number one, you were open and you said yes to going to the event. Like, where did that even come from? How did show up? Because clearly you're, you know, not to use too out there words, but like, clearly your energy was really open and receptive at the event that you not only, you know, you got approached, then you got asked to go to coffee, then you got asked to speak. Like, you know, that doesn't just happen. So people listening, they're like, oh, it's because X, Y and Z. There are plenty of people that go to events and they're quiet or they're closed off energy or they don't have, you know, they're not intentional or whatever that. So what do you think that is?

Well, I think from a young age, it was modeled to me by specifically my mom, to welcome everybody, no matter who they are, where they're standing, and specifically take notice the people that are in the corners of the room that may be standing by themselves, that don't feel comfortable, have a sense of awkwardness, to really reach out. And she really taught me to include everybody. I was just one of those kids that grew up and invited all the kids to come over to my house to play. It wasn't just one or two. And so having that approach to life as an adult, I think has really helped me because I'm not afraid to hear the word no. I'm really not. If I hear the word no, it's an opportunity for me to find the word yes. And whether that's within myself or whether that's in the environment. And so that's how I look at it. And even in romantic relationships, I always joke that I approached my husband, he didn't approach me. And everyone's like, what did you say? And I literally drove up in my car and I handed him my phone number and I said, give me a call. And they're like, you did that? And I said, yes. And they're like, well, what if he didn't? I said, then he wouldn't. And it's no loss. It's not like I had anything to lose by giving him my number. It was just, here, give me a call. And I just put myself out there with Knowing that obviously rejection is possible, but if I don't put myself out there, regret feels worse.

Oh my God. Okay, we can be done with the podcast. Awesome. It's just so true. Like, everything is risky and you have to just plant those seeds everywhere, you know, everywhere you go. And I love that. Just really being open and having just like the. I think that's huge. Just what you said, just open energy of like welcoming energy of like everything is possible here. And you know, of course there's risk and potential, you know, pain, but that's, that's life, right? That's, that's literally the process of life. So, you know, we had just jumped on the podcast and you were telling me like you had kind of a crazy morning, but you did not get to tell me what all went down. So, you know, why not? Why not share with a million people.

Right now of all these people? So you're going to hear what happened. So when I go on podcasts, you know, it's really important to me that I prepare and that I get my thoughts and have clarity and, you know, just get a flow for it. And my kids, I have three children ages 7, 5 and 3. I have three kids in three years. So we were busy. We were busy. So, and my kids, my older two, started a camp and it was their first day yesterday. And when we were sitting down for dinner, it turns out that one of my, one of the kids at the camp had bullied my 5 year old and had tried to get money from him and went through his backpack and he called my daughter negative names. And it was just, as a parent, you just are sitting there with this, you know, my stomach was churning and of course I know what I want to do to this other kid and that's not helpful. So it really put everything into perspective for me because it was like, okay, my kids really need me and they need me to be their mom and not Dr. Morgan Francis, the clinical therapist. They need me to show up as their mom. And so I did. And I went to the director this morning and we had a good conversation about it, about what happened. But my daughter turned to me and she said, well, mom, what if I don't have a good day? What if I have a really bad day? And I put my hands on both my kids shoulders and I looked them in the eye and I said, you do not let anyone rob your happiness. You can always make it a great day. No matter what happens to you, you have the power to turn your day around. And they both looked at me, they're like, okay, Mom. And we hugged and it's like on three. And they went out to the soccer field and I got into my minivan and I, you know, pulled away, wiping tears, you know, off my cheeks, because I think that's, again, about our mental health. It goes back into. We all have the power to change our day, our week, our month, our year, whatever it may be. It's in our power. We just have to ask for help. And we are so good, myself included, at avoiding pain. I spent years of my life avoiding pain. My brother was killed in a car accident when I was 16. And it completely changed my destiny. It completely changed everything. And I had to really learn so much about life. And I learned that I was really good at avoiding pain by numbing out with an eating disorder or toxic relationships or drugs or alcohol. And I really had to look at myself and become hyper aware of who I was. And I dug deep into journaling, into art therapy, to music therapy, to my own mental health therapy, to traveling, to connecting with God again to really figure out how I can heal from this loss. And I talk about the loss of my brother because it shaped everything in my life. And now when I am living, I really don't take anything for granted. I really try to make every moment count because you just never know. You never know what can happen.

Oh, man. So from. From your brother's passing and from you dropping off your children and, you know, wiping tears away. Like, how. How do you, you know, of course we have to feel all of those things, but at the, at the same time, how and when did you decide that it you didn't have to carry it through the rest of your life? Because I think what can happen, you know, let's just use what happened with your kids.

Kids.

It's like so many people get stuck thinking that they have to carry that all day. How do I, you know, shouldering the burden of, you know, what's gonna happen with my kids if they're bullied again? Like, and all of a sudden, all of that stress and fear and worry can, can drive us into drinking, into eating, into, you know, into not caring about the things that actually move the needle forward of the things that you want to do with your life and how you wanna show up and how you wanna be there for people. So how do you handle all of that?

I love that question. Well, specifically with this event with my kids, I mean, I did like, what any person does last night after dinner. I numbed out looking through social media. So I did not take care of myself in a proper way. But I needed that escapism. And I think Jay Shetty talks about we can escape or we can elevate our brains. And I love that idea because I escaped last night and then this morning. It was intentional. I wanted to elevate. And so I had the conversation with the camp director. I called a friend of mine and we talked it through. I went for a run. And it's really hot outside here in Arizona right now. It's like 100 plus degrees. So I turned on music. Music is definitely my calling. It's my therapy. It's really what I go to. And so being in that space of just, okay, taking care of myself, working out the emotions and letting them start to move through, like using that energy and finding an outlet for it to pass through me is going to be much more effective for me to be able to continue on my day than stuffing it or avoiding it where we will see it show up in really problematic ways later on. So it's really important that I think for me, it's the awareness, right? It's making the invisible visible and creating the awareness of this is what I'm feeling, this is what I'm thinking, this is what I want to do. And moving out of the reaction into response. So when I can, instead of reacting, which would be negative, and doing something impulsive, moving into a response mode which is solution focused, which is moving forward and finding a solution of an action.

Okay, so I want to dig into that just a tiny bit. Because in order to know that you need to go and move through feelings, there has to be a belief there that either started or you adopted around.

Like.

Like feelings are just visitors and like, understanding that they cycle through. So where did that belief come from? And is that, you know, what are you clinging to in those moments of like, do you know what I'm saying?

Where.

Where the point where I think some people think they have that that emotion becomes them or it becomes their identity. But clearly you have a knowing or belief that says this isn't, you know, this is just temporary. How can I move this through and how can I grow from it? So where do you think that started from?

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Did it, I think definitely through the grief therapy that I received after my brother died. Because there are stages of grief that are identified by Kubler Ross and it's denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. And those stages are not linear, meaning we don't go from one to the next in a Chronological. Chronological stage. It's fluid. And so there were times that I couldn't believe he was gone. I didn't want to believe he was gone. And there are still times, even though it happened when I was 16, that I still don't believe he's gone, that I don't want him to be gone. So that denial can come back up at any time in my life. That anger can come up any time in my life. The experience, acceptance can come up at different times in my life as well. And so for me, it was just. This is. This is circular. This isn't something that's just. I have. This isn't define me. My brother's death and the tragedy that my family suffered, it doesn't define who we are. It's a part of who we are. But we continue to move on. And my family is so close. Even though my parents got divorced a year later and they both are remarried, they are extremely close. I mean, we're kind of like the Bruce Willis, Demi Moore, you know, couple. You know, we. I mean, we do dinners together, we do holidays together. They've even joked about going on vacation together. I'm like, whoa, guys, back it up like that. But, yeah, I mean, it's. I'm lucky because I have parents that really, you know, respect each other. And I think after you lose a child, a lot of things can happen. And I'm really grateful that they were able to still have respect for one another after the loss.

Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much for sharing that. And just the way that you put it in the picture of, you know, this is circular. I think so often we can be like, I've been here before. Why is this here again? And I think knowing, like, you know, every day can look like that. Every day can be a process of moving through those things. So. Do you mind? Just because that's so interesting, could you tell me the phases again?

Yeah, it's by Elizabeth Kubler Cross. It's denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and then acceptance.

What is the bargaining one about?

So bargaining is like, if I do this, can I get this back? So if I'm good, if I'm a Christian, if I. If I. You know, God, if I. If I owe this to you, can you. Can you, you know, bring me something back? Maybe not in a physical form, but could, you know, you make sure that nothing bad happens to me again? And. And that's what. Actually, I felt that. I remember being in my. In my college years and thinking, well, I went through the most painful thing. I lost A family member. I lost my brother. There's nothing bad that could happen to me again. Well, God, I was so wrong. I was really wrong. I felt pain in many different ways, many traumatic ways. This was not just the tip of the iceberg. Just because I felt pain and lost my brother doesn't mean I was never going to be exposed to pain again. In fact, I would be exposed to pain many times.

This is such a huge topic for me right now, the acceptance of pain in daily life, meaning, you know, maybe it's the. Something as extreme as the loss of someone or people, you know, having. Finding out they have different diseases or loved ones, having, you know, different things that are coming up or cancer or whatever that looks like. But also, you know, something that I'm finding in my life every day is when you follow your dreams and you become an entrepreneur. Like, you deal with a lot. You work with a lot of people, and when you're working with a lot of people and you're working with money, I think that that invites a whole slew of different, very interesting, sometimes excruciatingly painful things that come up. Like, you know, especially when you put yourself out there, just like judging character or bullying or whatever that looks like. So I'm really trying to. And I know I'm speaking for so many people right now, and I would love to hear your take on this in your life. Like, the acceptance that every day there's going to be pain, but there's also joy. So how you talk to your kids and you're like, you know, nobody can rob you of your joy. Can you talk to me from an adult perspective of, like, how can I accept the pain that comes with all of the beautiful things in life?

Yes. Well, I really believe. I mean, it's a yin and a yang. So we have the pain, and then we have the joy. And. And what I have found working with hundreds of individuals as a clinical therapist is that the pendulum swings both ways. So we are great avoiders of pain, but we also can be great avoiders of pleasure and joy. And so it's not just that people avoid feeling the uncomfortableness with the painful, traumatic events. They. They avoid feeling the comfortableness also with the joyful events. And one of the things I know that you've talked about, too, is gratitude. And for me, when gravity pulls me down, gratitude lifts me up. And when I was in that, you know, pain of losing my brother, I know that, you know, pain is inevitable, but suffering is not. I knew that I wasn't going to be suffering Forever. And I was grateful that I had such an amazing relationship with my brother. Brene Brown talks about, when parents or family members lose people, what we miss the most is the simple things. I miss seeing the scar on me. I miss how annoying he was, how he would fart in the car and lock, unroll the windows down. Like, that's the stuff I miss. And so it's the simple things, it's not the big, extraordinary things. And I actually love hearing people talk about their relationships with their siblings. I don't shy away from that. Like, I want to hear about your relationship and how important it is to you, because then I know you get it. You get the value. When I hear that people are disconnected or no longer talking to their siblings, that's where I'm like, no, reach out. Let's find a way to have a conversation. If it means, you know, you know, of course I'm not talking about, you know, significant abuse and things like that, but if there's an argument that hasn't been worked through, let's talk about that, because there's an opportunity there that you're missing out on, that connection with your sibling. So that, to me, is where the healing is. When I'm able to help people through their pain of losing someone. Because I've been there, and I know that feeling. I know the look. I know the scream that comes out of a parent's mouth when they hear the news of losing a child. I was there. I heard it. I'll never forget it.

So you go through this cycle. I'm sure this comes up all of the time. Do you have a particular. I know that you said that you walk and you listen to music. Is that kind of your go to for when this cycle comes up? Or do you. Do you recognize when you're going through it? Is it helpful or is that sometimes actually not helpful to be able to, like, diagnose where you're at? Does that make sense?

Yes, it does. And there are days I recognize it and there's days that I don't. When the days that I'm like, what is off? Like, something's off of me 10 out of 10 times. It's because I'm in my grief and I'm just missing him, and I just wish he was here. And then I reach out and I talk to him and I open up and I will literally have conversations out loud with him and fill him in on what's going on, just like I would if I was giving him a phone call. You know, it's really cool in a way, because right after he died, in the mail, I got a postcard from him. Oh, I know, right? Wow. And, you know, here I am, I get the mail, and I'm 16 years old, and I see University of. Of Colorado, Boulder. Boulder University is where he went to college. And I was like, that's odd. And there's his handwriting. And I literally almost fell to the floor. And he wrote me a postcard right before he passed, wishing me a good year in school and telling me how proud he is of me and how much he loves me.

Wow.

I know. I know. And I was just like, I mean, you can't get better closure than that. I mean, you really can't. And I was like, okay. Like, okay. And I have to. I have to work through this, you know, these stages of grief. And I know. I literally know that he is with me. I knew right before I went on stage, that powerhouse event, and I was sitting there, and I felt like an elephant was on my chest, and there was no way I was going to get up on stage. All of a sudden, Maury. I had, like, this vision of him, and I knew he was there, and I could hear him, and I could see my family, and I could see my kids, and I could see my husband. And I just. I just knew I was. I was meant to go up on that stage and serve and deliver a message for women to love themselves. Stops and I can't. It's so hard to explain it in words. It was just this feeling.

Wow. Wow. Yeah. That's absolutely beautiful. I can't even imagine getting the postcard in the mail. Do you ever just. Are you ever like, wow, Is there ever a part of you that wonders, like, is there a higher part of us that knows sometimes? Had he ever written you a postcard before?

He had never written me a postcard. The last conversation I had with him, I remember where I was. I was in the mud room of my home. I picked up the phone. This is obviously before cell phones. And I was like, hey. And he's like, hey, I want to talk to mom and Dad. I was like, okay. And I was like, mom, dad, Kyle's on the phone. And he's like, hey. And I'm like, what? He's like, I love you. And I was like, I love you, too. And it wasn't something we said to one another on a regular basis. I mean, clearly. Sure, it's special times.

Yeah.

But he told me he loved me, and those were his last words to me. And, yeah, I just I feel that I was really lucky because I know there's so many people that don't get that. So many. And I am not all my family members got that.

So.

And that, and that really hurt their, and it stifled their grieving process. I must say. My sister did not have the same experience as I did. And that really negatively hurt her and wounded her that she didn't get to have that closure with him. She didn't get a postcard in the mail. And so I definitely feel that I was blessed in that way because it helped me in my healing journey. And so that's why I feel like I'm also, I, I need to be that person to also help others. Like this, this was my destiny. Like people say, like, oh, how did you find your career? Like, no, no, no, no, my career found me. It's my, it's my, my, my purpose here in life is to serve others and to help them through their pain.

That's what I was just going to ask you. So is that where your passion came from? Did you know how, you know, how soon into your journey did you know that you wanted to help people basically cope? Because what, I mean, you help people with so many things. Body image, eating disorders, mood disorders, relationships, trauma, sexual disorders. Like, do you, are those, do they all have a similar route or through line to them?

They do. It's not, you know, exactly the same, but it all comes back to trauma, to pain, to suffering, to loss. And we all have a story. And that's the thing, I'm sure we've all heard this line. You never know what someone's going through and you really don't, you really don't know. And I mean, I've worked with some of the most high celebrities that you would ever see on TV all the way to a 12 year old child. And yet we all have the loss, we all have the pain, we all have the hurt. And it manifests itself in different ways. And until we get the help, we don't know how to heal ourselves. And we have to feel, we have to deal and then we have to heal.

So you said if we don't get the help, we can't heal ourselves. But so many of us, like, whether we are afraid to ask for help or whether we are. I know something that I'm totally like, you know, I'm guilty of is being like, oh, well, my problem's not big enough. But then they can grow much bigger. So how, how do you know you need help? When can you ask for help? How do you Even go about doing that.

Yeah. And I love what you said, because I've heard that so many times. Well, I don't have it as bad as this person. And how I frame that for my clients is. You're right. You don't. You don't have it as bad as that person. However, you don't have it as bad as that person over there either. And so really, when you say to yourself that my pain isn't as big or bad as somebody else is, what you're saying is I don't deserve. I'm not deserving of help. That's the message that you're sending to yourself, and you are. You've always been deserving of help. We all are deserving of allowing ourselves to be helped. And I know that I'm really good at, you know, figuring it out and handling it and taking care of it. I think, you know, that's just. Just my personality. But I remember a time when I was pregnant and I was carrying all these bags, and my clinical supervisor was like, hey, let me get a door for you. And I was like, no, no, I got it. I got it. And he literally put his hand on my shoulder. He goes, let me help you. And that was such that those words were meant more than he knew, because I had been rejecting help for a long time in that period of my life, and I needed to be able to allow myself to receive, to. When we allow ourselves to receive, we allow ourselves to be loved.

Oh, that's so beautiful. And you gave me such an image of. You know, it's a gift to be able to help people. Like, you know, when I see my husband stressed out and he doesn't let me help him, I'm like. Like, you're killing me here.

Like, let me.

Let me help you, please. Like, it would make me feel so good. So it's a gift for people to be able to help us. Like, it's a huge part of. Can you imagine not ever being able to help someone? Like, it's what your whole life's purpose is based off of.

Absolutely. I mean, I have job security. I mean, that's what I say. I'm not going anywhere. I've got job security with what I do, and I love it. And if I can't. If I literally can't help, I will find a way to give you the resources to get you to help. I never say no to anybody. I will always say, let me get back to you, and I will get you what you need, whether it's a book, a Podcast a person, a song, whatever it is. Yes. The fact that you're reaching out takes so much courage. So I don't want that courage to go away. So let's get you what you need.

What happens if. A lot of times, you know, I think there's so many people out there. I've never been in. I know I've been in this situation where sometimes we don't even know we can't yet. Let's just say it's years of not expressing and suppressing and we don't even know what we need help with because we just feel like everything is wrong. How do you even start to like, uproot, unravel? And I think it's a really scary place for a lot of people because they haven't looked, they haven't seen what it is, they haven't confronted or as you, as you say, care fronted, which I think is just so beautiful because confronting your fears and what's wrong can be one of the scariest places. It's much, you know, sometimes it can feel easier to suppress and sweep under the rug because we're used to feeling that pain. So how do you even start to look at, you know, what you want to start taking care of?

My first reaction when you were saying that was don't wait. I think oftentimes we meet till there's a crisis. We wait till there's something that's big that happens. Oftentimes that's where I see men come in. Something is like as a crisis, meaning it's going to affect their job, it's going to affect their marriage, it's going to affect their finances. And that's typically what I see with men, and that's what brings them in. For women, it's an emotional burden, like, I can't handle this anymore. It's anxiety, it's body insecurity, and it's preventing them from having a quality of life or connected in their relationships. And it's usually about another person than it is about themselves.

Interesting. So when it's about another person, why, what do you, what do you see?

Is it, it's for their child, for their daughter, it's for their son, it's for their partner, it's for their work. It's because their partner said something to them. It's typically, it's a, it's an external factor that brought it, that brought them in. Like, my weight's bothering me or, you know, my boss said this to me or my girlfriend did this. And so it's always typically an external factor that will bring them in. But once, whether it's a man or a woman, once they're in, then it becomes about them. But as far as getting them in to make that call, to reach for help, what I would say is don't wait. Don't wait till there's a crisis. In fact, you can go when things are going well. We don't have to wait until things are bad for us to talk about ourselves. Oftentimes I say to my patients, it's okay for you to come in here and have a good day. In fact, let's talk about what's making it a good day today, what's helping you, and not always focusing on what's bad, but also what's working.

Oh, I love that topic, too, because I feel like it's so easy to get attached to our identities, of our problems. And sometimes it's almost like you can feel naked without a problem if it's identified you for so long, especially if it's what got you different connections. Or maybe we bond over. You only know how to bond over drama or, you know, past experiences or traumas that have happened. So really focusing on what is good, how do we. How do we confront our problem but not get stuck in the problem? Because sometimes that's what I hear about. Like you said, I love that you celebrate great days because sometimes I hear that we can start to talk about our problems or go to therapy, but then get stuck in the loop.

Yeah, exactly. And so that trauma bonding is really common. It bonds us into the pain. And we feel like we can't be without the pain because the pain has been a partner. The pain is familiar. The pain is a state of comfort, in a sense, because it's what the person's always known. So to work through the pain and leave the anxiety or leave the depression or leave the guilt, it feels incredibly scary because then I'm exposed right then I'm really me, and who am I? Who am I without this discomfort? And oftentimes people may not know.

Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah, that one's close to home in many ways.

Yes. So it's getting to understand our identity. And what I will ask a person is, let me. Who are you? And however old they are, whether they're 43 or 67 or whatever age, I'll have them write down these affirmations. I am a survivor. I am intelligent. I am creative. I am passionate. Whatever you are, not what you do, because that's different than who you are. And we tend to mix the Two.

Wow. Yeah. That's huge. Just, you know, I think growing up where it really was just that that was all that we talked about and bonded over was either pain of the world or pain in our bodies or pain of, you know, whatever it looked like. Because I think growing up in a restrictive religion as well, it was always like we were waiting for the next part of our lives, whatever that looked like. And I think like believing, you know, whatever those past beliefs are, like, this is the life that you're, that you've been born into. Whether that's, you know, life is hard and then you die or whatever those beliefs are. It could be financial beliefs, it could be family beliefs, it could be religious beliefs. It's like once in a while, not once in a while, I'm gonna be totally honest. Like on a daily basis, I'll find myself scanning for what is wrong, like, where's the anxiety? And I. It's like a loop. And I know that I can't be alone in this. So it's like, how do we allow ourselves to let go of that loop? I know you just told me, but tell me again.

Well, we can. And also you bring up a really good point, because I've done it myself where I'll be with my kids and I'll be experiencing joy, and all of a sudden I'll imagine something really bad happening. Like there's a car accident or there's a drowning, or just fall over and stop breathing. You know, I'm like, what the. And I'm like, yes, what is going on? And, and, and Brene Brown talks about this. We, we rob ourselves the joy because the joy is vulnerable. The joy we know from what we experienced. Pain can be short lived. And so preparing ourselves to think, okay, something bad's gonna happen is a way for us to put up our defense mechanisms to protect our sense of ego. So if I prepare for it, then it won't hurt as bad. You and I both know that's a bucket of lies. Because it still hurts. It still hurts. And no preparation is really going to minimize a crisis or traumatic loss or a negative experience because it's just. It's painful and it hurts.

Let's just grab the moment.

Yes, it's gonna totally rock the moment. So stay in the joy. Don't exit, don't avoid the joy. Stay in it. Because that's where the goodness is. That's. That's the richness.

Oh, my God. I just had this flash of like, you know, I feel like all of the old sayings, like well, it's all fun and games until, like, we feel like if we're not stressed out and thinking of, like, what could go wrong, that if we are, you know, sideswiped while we're in joy, that we will be guilty. Like, why didn't I see that coming? Or why didn't I? I think that's a big root for me, is it's like, oh, my God, if I'm just in pure bliss, like, will this add to the idea that why didn't. Why wasn't I more prepared? But we can't spend our life preparing for fear and anxiety.

Exactly. We can't. And we'll be unsuccessful because it's the guilt.

Yes.

You know, why wasn't I. Or why couldn't I see this? And. And when there is a loss we want or pain or trauma, we want to blame somebody. We want accountability.

We want to be able to point.

The finger at someone or something to say, it was your fault that this happened. And when we can't do that directly, then we're left with looking at ourselves. And that's really uncomfortable because then we have to handle all the emotions that come along with the loss.

Well, therapy is happening over here. There's so much. So much around that. But I want to ask you, because this is like, I loved hearing you speak on stage, and I think one of the biggest topics going around, especially right now in this very moment, so much about body image. And I know that you love talking about body image, so why is this such a hot spot for you?

Because I've been through it, and I get it. You know, one of the ways that I avoided pain was I developed an eating disorder. And I would, you know, restrict food. I would count calories, I would spend hours at the gym, I would purge, I would binge, I would cleanse. I mean, name it, I probably did it. And I was miserable. And the thing is, I was at my thinnest. And I remember coming back home from college one summer, and I was very thin, and I got so much praise for looking good to everybody else, but inside, I was just miserable, and no one knew. And it was so confusing to me that people assumed that my life had to be so fantastic because I looked a certain shape and size. And that's when I knew. This is a deeper issue. This is a systematic issue. This is an environmental issue. This is oppression. There's so many layers to it. And so once I recovered from my eating disorder, I still was having diet culture show up in my life, and that's When I was like, okay, there's another layer to this, and this is my body image. And I need to explore body image and body image. How I define it is the way that we think, we feel, our attitudes, our beliefs, our behaviors around the way that we look. And I wanted to understand it more because you don't have to have, you know, you can have an eating disorder and obviously have a negative body image, but you can have a negative body image and. And not potentially have an eating disorder. So we all can walk around having a negative view of the way that we look. And after I had my daughter, I knew that I had to change the way that I was thinking and feeling because I didn't want her to feel what I was feeling. And I talked about this in Powerhouse Women's Event. The number one question I get asked, asked by moms and parents is how do I make sure that my child doesn't have a negative body image? And what I see is, you know, really what you're asking me is, how do I make sure that my daughter or my son doesn't hate their body the way that I hated mine?

Yes.

And it starts with you. It always starts with you. Children learn through social modeling. Monkey see, monkey do. And you can tell your child you are blue in the face, that they are beautiful, that they are amazing, that they are worthy, and, you know, stuff their bodies. If you on the other side of that are getting on the scale and you are grimacing, or if you're not eating with your children or you're like, oh, no, Mommy can't eat that. Mommy's on a diet today. Or if you're only drinking fluids, you know, that's confusing messages for the child. They don't understand. Well, mom tells me I'm beautiful, but mom doesn't think that she's beautiful. So can I really trust what she's saying? Because I think Mom. And so it sends all these mixed messages. And I didn't want to have mixed messages for my children. I didn't want to have mixed messages in my life anymore. And so I really adopted in not being part of the dye culture and to point it out and to spot it and help people know what to do about it and to educate and to give them the power back. As a consumer, you don't have to purchase that product. You don't have to agree. Just because they're a celebrity or just because they're selling you something doesn't mean that you have to believe it. You can say, you know what? That's not for me. Like Patrice Washington said, you know, reject the advice. It's not in alignment with your assignment. I mean, you don't have to take that in. And that's what I started to do for myself, and that's what I want my kids to be able to. To do for themselves.

So beautiful. I truly like looking. Looking.

How were you raised?

What was something that you saw growing up that was, you know, impactful on your body image?

Well, I was raised for my body image to be a very focal point. I mean, I was always told about. I had comments about my external parents all the time, which. Which was not good. I remember going on a diet when I was probably 14, if not younger, counting my calories, worried about what I was going to look like or if I could get into my clothes. I mean, I was a teenager. The messages to me were, your appearance is very important. And it's probably really not directly, but it was the most important thing about me. And that is the furthest thing from the truth. My way that I look is the least interesting thing about me. And I don't want anyone to think that the way that they look is the most interesting thing about them. What is interesting about a person is what they have to offer to the world. Who they are, the way that they treat others, if they're kind, if they're expecting, if they're loving. Like, that's what I. That's who I have in my life. Not. I don't have a girlfriend in my life because I think she's cute. I have a girlfriend in my life because she's caring and she's an amazing mom. And because she's educated or she works really hard. You know, whatever it may be, it's the inner qualities. So I wanted to get away from that because that was something that I really grew up with. Lots of messages from my parents about my. My. The way that I looked. And I still get it today about.

The way that I look.

And I really try to say. And yes, more than that, or it's my daughter, my son, and he. Or he is all this too. And because we're so ingrained to just focus on the external appearance.

I mean, it used. It was something that was. Was so nice to be told and said to. But now we don't. You know, when it's. We forget, like, oh, wow. If you just cling to that, then that's going to be the thing where most of the value is. And I think one of the biggest ways that I've shifted out of that Especially coming from, you know, having no attention up until I started doing fitness competitions and then getting all the attention only for that. One of the main ways that I had to detach my identity from. From my body and being super lean, because the second I wasn't super lean, I wasn't getting those comments. So it was like, oh, my God, how do I get those again, feeling seen. Because I didn't know other ways how to feel seen, even by myself. So realizing their buckets, am I adding to the beauty bucket, which usually comes up pretty empty in the end, or am I adding to what I love about myself? And what I think is, is how do I make myself enjoyable to myself? And a lot of those answers are being creative. Can I learn another language? Can I play the guitar? Can I be really, really amazing to other people? Can I help them with their business? And those are things now that are so lasting, those are so fulfilling. So how can we focus on building things up, especially as females outside of our external.

I love what you just said. It's so valuable because I was just working actually with a gentleman who, when he was in high school, he got all this praise for being so physically fit. And he, fast forward, years later, he's going back to his high school reunion, and he has so much anxiety about the way that he looks, and he's obsessive about working out because he wants to uphold this image that he had when he was a teenager. And I said the exact same thing to him. I said, you know, the least interesting, interesting thing about you is the way you look. And he just started crying and he's like, no one has ever said that to me. And I needed to hear that. I needed to give myself the permission to be more. And I just said, yeah, I mean, we just had this really wrong conversation. And I agree with you. Finding out who we are beyond our physical appearance. And you talked about how thinness is equated with moral security. We automatically assume that people in thinner bodies have it all together, have it figured out, have the answers to health and wellness, know what they're doing, and it could not be further from the truth. And I'm not saying that's an all or never statement. What I'm saying to you is that we cannot say who or who does not have an eating disorder or negative body image based on their shape or size. We cannot determine a person's health based on their shape or size from the external appearance, because I've worked with individuals who have anorexia nervosa, and I Tell you what, they are miserable. I've worked with fitness competitors. They are miserable. When I was at my fitness, I was miserable. I was hungry. I knew there was a problem when I was out on a date. And I didn't even pay attention to what he was saying because bread had been put on the table and I had not eaten bread in months. And the smell and just looking at it, like, completely came into my, you know, I couldn't think because all I can think about is like, oh, my God, I really want. I want bread. I haven't had bread. And it had been months since I've eaten any carbs. And I had, you know, reached my carb limit for the day, so I couldn't eat it. But guess what happened? I went home and I binged.

Yep.

And women get into these horrible. And men too. But we get into these horrible, vicious cycles of deprivation, and we are really, again, avoiding joy because food tastes good, it's fun, it's pleasurable, It's a way for us to connect. And if we're not allowing ourselves that pleasure, we are going to make it harder for ourselves to experience pleasure in other areas of our lives.

Oh, man, I've so been there so many times back in the day. And let me tell you, one of the scariest things in the world was letting go of, like, in order for me to let go of that, you know, what I thought was control, but it was really always had the opposite effect. Like, whenever I would feel very in control, I would have the equal yin and yang.

Right.

The equal and opposite effect, like, that would happen of uncontroll on the other side. So something that I want to just chat about briefly is just when you were on stage, you were talking about the. I think it's called the Minnesota Starvation Study, which you talking about not being able to, or trying to stop yourself from having the bread and then binging. You had shared some stuff that I just thought was so interesting. Could you share a little bit about that?

Yes. So this study is fascinating because it's really one of the most important studies when it comes to dieting, because this study was done after World War II. Dr. Ancel Keys and his researchers wanted to study the effects of war. And it wasn't guns and warfare that killed humanity during that time. It was famine. He wanted to understand how to rehabilitate a body after starvation. 400 male subjects volunteered. It ended up being 36 that he took in in the first three months. All of them were evaluated. There was a baseline, and they were given 3200 calories to start off with. And the men were doing great. And then the six month period was the restrictive period. And the restrictive period, they cut their calories in half. So about 1,575 calories now, Lori, you know, and I'm sure, I mean, I have dieted and been on way less than 1,575 calories. And so, but this was cut in half for these men. So it was significant. So naturally we're going to see changes in their body shape and size. And that's what the researchers predicted and wanted to see happen. But what they weren't prepared for was the emotional and mental repercussions of the deprivation of the restriction of the calories. So men started to become irritable in the food line. They cafeteria. They started to not sit with them with each other and would sit by themselves when they were eating. They would try to dilute their potatoes with water to make it last longer. They would take their fork or spoon and scrape every single morsel left on their plate. They would go into the garbage hoping to find a leftover of anyone else's plates. And I mean, I've been there, I have taken my spoon and got every last bite I possibly could. I have dug through the garbage, you know, trying to, you know, put, you know, dump the brownies out, let's get it back out.

I was like, is that pizza touching anything?

No, it's fine. It's good, it's good. Two second help. And so, but back in their, you know, housing and they at night were, instead of reading books or literature on interest or hobbies, they started reading cookbooks and recipe books. And what do we see with any dieting program? We see cookbooks and recipe books come out with it. And they became obsessed with food. So they stopped socializing with one another. And they ended up instead would isolate themselves and not go to movies. They would chew up to 40 packs of gum a day until gum was banned. They tried to smoke cigarettes until that was banned. And as the months continued, their behavior became worse. They became more apathetic, they became more isolated, they became more irritable. They lost their motivation to do a lot of activities. So after the six months, the next phase was the rehabilitation phase. And that was three months. And their calorie intake was increased 500 calories. And naturally you would think that the men would be happy and their symptoms would improve. Actually, it got worse. The men became more aggressive. They actually became severely depressed. A couple of them felt suicidal because they felt that they failed the program because what they saw in the mirror wasn't enough compared to what the researchers were showing.

Hey, no.

These are, these are your stats. You've lost enough weight. We need to rehabilitate your body. They struggled and suffered from body dysmorphia. So what they saw was different than what other people saw. One man was going so crazy in his mind that he was eliminated from the program. And when he was walking home, I mean, back then there wasn't like McDonald's or Dairy Queen, but he stopped at a soda shop and he binged. 17 students.

Wow.

So quickly they increased the caloric intake again and again and again. Because the results, their mental health was not improving despite their physical weight going up. So it wasn't until the subjects were around almost 5,000 calories that we started to see repair in their mental and emotional health. Wow. And so what this says is that our bodies don't know when the starvation is going to stop. Even though these men knew that the study was not something that would be forever, their bodies didn't know the difference. So it took exceptional long amount of time for their mental health to repair itself from the deprivation and the restriction that they were under. And we go on cleanses or diets or restriction all the time. I see it all the time after we've given birth to babies, when we are going on to a vacation because we want to look good in our swimsuit to just a gym workout or a wedding, we will put ourselves under this restrictive nature and we will keep living life as though nothing has changed. And yet we are expecting our brains and our emotional well being to function at the same capacity or even at a higher level. And yet we are restricting our food intake significantly. We can't live on what we're eating when our caloric intake is not meeting the needs of even a small child. And as women, I mean, we are doing incredible things right now. Like we are building empires, we are taking business, we are getting into the rooms, developing relationships, and yet we're expecting ourselves to be under this restrictive food intake while we're doing it so that we can look our best, not feel our best. We tell ourselves we're feeling good, but we're hungry. We are hungry and we need to eat. And the biggest gift you can give yourself is the gift of food. We would never say to a child, oh, I don't think you should eat that. You better watch what you're eating. We wouldn't talk that way to our children, and yet we talk that way to ourselves. On a daily basis. So changing the negative talk is critical. It's critical to our wellness, to our overall, to healing our damaged body image.

How do we switch that in general? Just, you know, because I could talk to you all day, but we're nearing the end here. How can we. And I know this is a much larger question, which we can, you know, follow you, find you, and I know you have some amazing things to offer. If everyone's, like, now salivating, like, now what. But how do we, you know, turn that into really nourishing ourselves and remembering, like, it's an act of love and of kindness, and it helps your mood and your mental health and your relationships and everything excel to release yourself from that mental prison and nourish your body with food. So, you know, if you were to. If you were giving yourself advice when you were in that period of time in your life, what would you go back and say to yourself?

I would go back and say to myself, you deserve it. You deserve love. You deserve to be accepted by yourself. Because somewhere, somehow, I believe that I wasn't worthy. I wasn't good enough to deserve love in an emotional, nurturing, compassionate way. And so when I don't believe it in myself, then I'm not going to allow myself to eat. I kept trying to shrink my body size, thinking that's the only way that I could be accepted and be loved. And I told myself this myth that if I was thin enough, he wouldn't cheat. If I was thin enough, then I would get that job. If I was thin enough, then my dad would finally notice me. If I was thin enough, then all these magical things would happen. And the reality was, no, he's still going to cheat. You don't need to be thin in order to get that job. You get that job because you work your butt off and you demand it.

Yes.

And your dad loves you no matter what. You just got to have a conversation with them. You got to talk to them. That's what I had to do. I mean, I had a lot of conversations with my dad, and I'm so glad I did because we're great now. So that's the piece. It wasn't about my food or my body shape and size or trying to get myself to fit in a pair of whatever size jeans I needed to nourish myself so I can nourish the other part of my life.

Oh, man, this needs, like, a whole part two, truly.

And, like, great. We just.

We just walked ourselves into another hour. Podcast. Perfect. Well, I'm so grateful for you truly, I mean, I really feel like I could continue this conversation and get so many answers for myself and so many other people. But where can we find you? Where can we follow you and learn more?

So I'm actually launching my body image online course. I am so excited. It is called Bye Bye Body Blame. You deserve to love your body without having to lose weight. And I feel like I gave birth again because this course has everything that I needed when I was suffering and struggling. And that is why I went to, I went back to that girl and I thought, what did she need to hear? What would have helped her? What did she need to know? All the research, all the statistics, the information so that I had. I'm all about education and this education to me is power. So give me all the education and then tell me what I need to do. And so I boiled it down to four core steps that a person needs to take in order to clap for themselves. And the clapping is really a metaphor for the loving and the compassion and the nourishment to give people back to yourself because we still often will give it to others, right? Like good for you. And we'll clap for them, but we rarely are clapping for ourselves. So that's what I teach individuals in the program. And it's, you know, once you have it, it's yours, it's yours forever. So it's a way to dive into understanding how to heal your body image. And I can't wait for everyone to get their hands on it. So also I post a lot of information on my Instagram. I mean I'm constantly talking about things that are in pop culture to tips and tools and strategies a person can have. I'm located in Scottsdale, Arizona. That's where my private practice is. And I'm really blessed. I'm blessed that I was able to be a guest on your show. I think what you're doing, Lori, is incredible. I adore you and you bring such joy into my life when I, I listen to your podcast and you're so funny and I really appreciate everything that you're doing because you really are an inspiration for so many of us.

Oh my God. Well, thank you so much for that. I'm beyond grateful for this conversation. I'm so grateful that we've been connected and I know that this has been probably one of the most insightful eye opening podcasts for a lot of people. Just on really starting to show up for themselves and believe they deserve it in the same is just if you feel that this is just the Beginning for you. Definitely go check her stuff out or ask for help wherever you're at, because it is powerful. Like, it is so powerful to have these conversations, not just listening to them, but to go and actually have them and have somebody hold space for you. So thank you so, so much for coming on the podcast. And you guys, I have linked up everything in the show, notes that so that you can go and find her. And I always end on one last question. Are you ready?

Yes.

Okay, so you have like 30 seconds with a stranger in passing, whether it's on the street or in an elevator, it's literally only 30 seconds, and you've never met this person before, and they ask you, how can I make myself happy? What do you say?

Believe in yourself. Believe in yourself. Believe in your worth. Believe in your love. Believe in you that you deserve. That's the first thing I thought to myself. Believe in yourself. It always starts with us. Just like I said, when it comes to the parenting issue, it starts with you. It starts with us. It always starts with us. So believe in yourself.

Thank you so much. And you guys, if you love this episode and you know anybody struggling at all that you want to text us to, absolutely do it right now. And we are so grateful for you. And until next time, earn your happy.

Bye, everyone.

Thank you guys so much for spending this time with me on the earn your happy podcast. I am so glad that you stopped by. If you could take one second to share this episode with someone you think would love it, that would be absolutely amazing and we would be forever grateful. Also, please leave us a review. If you feel so moved by going to itunes and leaving us an honest thought and honest comment, tell us what you think, tell us what you want to hear more of. It would really help us out on our journey to helping thousands and thousands of people. Until then, don't forget to earn your happy. Thanks again, guys. Bye.

Bye.