512. The opposite of depression is purpose - with Cathy Heller

We create new neural pathways when we have healthy new attachment with a friend, with a spouse, with a business partner. Isn't that amazing?

Welcome to the earn your happy podcast. I'm Lori Harder, founder of The Bliss Project, 3 Time Fitness World champion, fitness expert and cover model, turned self love junkie, lifestyle entrepreneur and author. Each week I'll bring you a guest or a thought that will help you bust through your fears, connect to your soul and get focused and clear so you can elevate your life, business and relationships. We don't wait until we're ready for someone to tell us we're good enough. We take what we want and we anoint ourselves, get ready to earn, own, and unapologetically rock your happiness every single day. Are you with me? Here we go. Hey, everyone. Super special guest today. This is a woman that I love listening to. I've actually been listening to her podcast a few times this week, so there's that. She has been a motivation in my ear. She is somebody who is truly a woman after your own heart. She is a girl's girl. She is here to set you on fire, set the world on fire. And that's how you're gonna feel after this podcast. Kathy Heller has been on my show before. She is the author of don't keep your day job. How amazing is that title? That just so happens to also be her epic podcast, don't keep your day job. And you guys, she is a songwriter, she's a singer, she is a top podcast host, she is an author, she has summits called the arrive summit. And she is just an all around amazing, epic human being who wants to help people find their purpose. And a quote that she always says that I'm obsessed with is the opposite of depression is not happiness, it is purpose. Yeah, let's just leave that one right there and get started. Kathy, I'm so excited to have you on the show again. I would really just, if you want to, like, co host majority of the time would be great.

If you want to just be the person that I get to, like, see every morning when I wake up that reminds me that, like, all things are possible and that you're like the energizer bunny. You just have.

God, this is good.

But you are. You're like such a life force. And then here's what I love about you, Lori Harder. And anyone who's known you for four seconds knows this. You look at you and you're like, she's so damn gorgeous and she has so many beautiful things coming out of her Mouth, like, she must be too perfect. Like, and then about five seconds later, you're such a goofball and you're so real and people go, oh, what's going on here? Okay, I get it. She's filled with substance. This is a girl who is not trying to put up any kind of show. She has earned her way to wherever she is. And she cares about me and she's like the girl I would have been friends with who sat next to me in the lunchroom. Like, I love that about you.

Wow. I'm just going to absorb that. I'm going to let that soak in.

Please do. Because you know that we live in this world where most people are not like that. Most people want you to believe that they are never goofy because they are perfect all the time. You know, and you're like, hi. Like, you'll be wearing like the most beautiful clothes and then you'll be like, it smells in here. What's going on? Like, you're so, like, it's like there's just the realness for days. The realness for days.

Well, speaking of, did you just see. I just did a story about you coming on this podcast. Have you seen it yet?

No.

Okay. You're gonna crack up.

I'm.

I'm gonna just pretty much leave it at that because, oh, my God, I'm in a snuggie blanket comforter talking about how your book is important to get if you wanna live in a comforter outfit.

So I love you. That's. Thank you.

Oh, my God. Well, I am, like, just thrilled to have you on the podcast again, number one, because it's so funny how once you connect with somebody, they just don't stop being in your sphere. Majority from conversations of other people. Like, you have impacted so many people. And I just want to reflect back, like, some of those amazing qualities that you just said about me, which I'm just like, wow. Really? But. But truly that's how I feel so much of that about you. Like, you are completely real. You want to help people. You're hilarious. Your heart so big. You guys, just to. I just want to share. Like, we had a 15 minute session before this where she was really just chatting with me all about the passing of pets and the passing of waffles. And just thank you for that because it's so beautiful to be able to cry with people for a minute.

Yeah, totally. And it's such a pleasure. Yeah, such a pleasure to have those real moments where we make space for each other. And I was telling Lori, that anyone has lost a pet. Like, I have three times. And I remember telling my sister the first time it happened that I physically was in pain. Like, I felt like if I went to a hospital, they could see it on an X ray. Like, it hurts so much. And I just told Lori that the day that I lost my first pet, I remember going outside and thinking that the cars were driving extra fast and that the world was not aware that he died and nobody was stopping. And I realized, oh, I'm in a new reality than everybody else right now. My world is different. And I just wanted to honor that because we don't make space for people's grief. We don't know what to say. And so we sort of, like, actually leave people when they need us most. And what they need from us is not to be cheered up. It's the opposite. They just need you to sit with them in their pain. That's it. You don't have to do anything else. And people actually need to be given the space to say, like, you can feel crappy for a while. Like, what else would you feel? And that's okay, you know? And so I think that that's our job sometimes for people is just to feel seen and make them feel seen. And I think one of the things that I talk about as it relates to your passion and your business is people will say all the reasons why they feel they're not able to be successful, or they're comparing themselves. And I'm always coming back to the only thing you need to be successful. If you have a podcast, if you're starting your own business, it really comes down to radical empathy, because what people want more than you being perfect is they just want you to make space to see them. And so that is why I think it goes back to what I said to you, and thank you for saying that such nice things about me. But that's why you're successful, because you. All day, sister. Like, all day, you're like, I see you and I mean it. And then you actually back that up because of the way that you talk is you. You open up the door to having, like, the realness. And then it makes people go, oh, she has given me permission, because she's not having shame about her stuff.

This is such an interesting conversation because it does kind of.

It.

It does kind of relate to just, like, how we empathize with people out in the journey of life and in business. And I know it's not completely the same, but it kind of follows the same highway as in, you know, what I'm learning is exactly what you said, because I didn't actually. I wasn't the person who knew what to say to people when they were going through a loss or like, sometimes super hard times if I couldn't relate. And what I learned through this experience is what felt the best for me was just people saying, hey, it sucks. Or here was my experience. I totally like when people say, I understand this pain. I was just like, wow, the power of that over anything else. Like, I've learned.

It's so.

It's not funny. But now, over the past week, where I've seen people lose pets, it's like, now it's in my line of vision.

Right.

I always stop and comment and send a dm, like, hey, I completely understand and feel this. Because X, Y, and Z, and whether we know it or not, which. This crazy world of social media, I have felt every single beautiful comment that was like that.

That's so sweet.

So just talking about how this applies to, like, the entrepreneurial journey, like, there are going to be people who do not get that it's really hard or get that you just got a horrible message or get that someone just tore you apart or said no or said you weren't special or everything that you do sucks. And I think sometimes just us seeing them.

Right.

That's why it's so important to be together on the journey. So I know. I know that you even talk about that, like, having people with you on the journey. What have you done and what do you tell people for? Especially if you're taking that leap in your passion or going to the next level.

Like, how to get there.

Yeah, just a supportive thing, like, how do you support yourself?

Yeah, Well, I mean, it is really essential. And this actually tips a hat to your book and to everything that you teach. But when I had James Clear on the podcast, and I'm sure you know this, but he wrote a book called Atomic Habits for those who don't know. And I said to him, what's the most. It's a New York Times bestseller. I said, what's the most important habit? And I was shocked. And you won't be. But he said, you know, people have been asking me that since the book came out, and there's all this data in the book. It's filled with research of, like, how do we get the life we want? Because our results. Our life is a result of our habits. And so I said, which one? And he said, since I wrote the book, I realized that I could write an Entire book on only one habit. Because it's the reason that everything else comes from this one thing. I said, what is it? He said, who you spend time with your people because we absorb. We become the sum total of the five people we spend the most time with. Lori knows this. She wrote her book around having that tribe. And it's so important to charge your batteries, listen to podcasts, be feeding yourself, curate your Instagram, who you follow, make sure that you have it on your calendar to meet up with your best friend. Let's not just leave it to chance. Let's make sure that that's always happening. Because the mind God is at an interesting place and we have 70,000 thoughts a day. And our mind was created to do one thing, which is to protect us. And so most of the time it's, it's just giving us so much negativity. And when we can pull ourselves out of that because we spend time with a person or we listen to a podcast or we are in a mastermind that's pure led, or we join a program or something, it is a lifeline. It's literally electricity. That's like you plugging in your iPhone, but you're plugging in yourself. That is the quickest way to charge your batteries is the people around us, because we get, we absorb it like a sponge.

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I love that you said that. Just because, you know, we didn't. We pretty much have no idea where, what direction this podcast is going, but I like where it's going. But with that said, I used Kathy. I used to think that I was truly like. I really thought that I was chemically depressed and had like incurable anxiety. And it was before I had friends and I spent so much time alone and our brains are not. We are not meant to be alone. Like, nope, legitimately not meant to be alone. And I think the more that we're alone, the more we convince ourselves that alone is how we're supposed to be. And because I just turned every social interaction into a negative one, you know, and told myself why they. Why it sucks so bad. And obviously, what we seek, we shall find. So I found a lot of really negative interactions. There was a lot of experiences that I, you know, attracted into my life because of how I was showing up. So I was also attracting people who believe the same. And we just kept confirming over and over.

Exactly, yes.

Our beliefs around you.

That's correct.

So have you ever had a period in your life like that where you maybe isolate yourself or you find there are different points where you're isolating 100%?

It's the worst. And I have tons of anxiety. And, you know, my mom. I think we talked about this when I was on your show the first time. And by the way, you should come back on my show. But I think I told you that. Okay. My mom struggled with manic depression my whole life. My dad has anxiety. They've both been medicated. They've had different periods where they're on it, where they're off of it. My mom tried to kill herself when I was a kid, and I knew that that was not only genetic, but it was something that it was modeled for me. So I definitely know how to suffer. Boy, do I know how to get really in there and just get those existential wheels turning. And it takes me like 17 seconds until I'm like, okay, I don't need to be here anymore. I can go there so quickly. And again, that's because there are literally neural pathways in our brain. Just like when you're putting a sandal on, and if somebody else has been wearing those Birkenstocks, you'll be like, why do these feel so weird on my feet? Because it's formed to that person's foot, literally in your brain. Not figuratively, but in your brain literally. There are neural pathways, kind of like a flight pattern, and that's already established based on repetition of, like, you think this thought. Like, let's say somebody asks you to speak and you get nervous and you think, oh, my gosh, it's going to be awful. Or I'll forget, or I won't remember what I'm supposed to say. And then I'll feel so stupid. And then four thoughts later, you're already at. That's how I felt when I was a child. That day that my dad walked out and never came home. I'm not doing it. And, like, so quickly, those thoughts have now been. One triggers the other, like a Domino's They've been created as, like, a neural pathway, but we can create new neural pathways. But here's what's interesting, interesting about the science, which goes back to Lori's book and goes back to humans. That happens through healthy attachment. We create new neural pathways when we have healthy new attachment with a friend, with a spouse, with a business partner. Isn't that amazing? Because as children, our attachment figures are our parents. And so we're in this, like, Theta State from 0 to 7 where we are, like, absorbing. And it's not only what's taught, it's what's caught. So even if your parents tell you, I love you, but they don't love themselves, then you won't really absorb that you're loved because they don't feel lovable. Like, so much is going on in that first seven years. And that's our attachment figure. But when we have new attachment figures and there's new safety created, a new intimacy created, and there's new things that are modeled, we actually create new neural pathways, which is so cool. And we can do that through having a coach being in a mastermind. We can do that through having a group of three best friends, and we meet for coffee every other Thursday morning. That is so powerful. And no, there's nothing wrong with you. You don't need to just decide that you're going to be depressed forever. You just need to have people around you. You're absolutely right. We are not meant to be alone. And one of the things that I think people really need to understand about starting a successful, really, really, really thriving, successful business is that that's where it begins. Do that for other people. Do that for other people. So show up, show up in your feed and either share something that you know, you can take your baby pinky toe in the water the first time, but share something that feels real to you, that opens the door for other people to go, oh, she's also struggling a little bit. You don't have to put all your dirty laundry out there. You don't have to share it all. But you could share one little thing. When Adam Grant was on my show, he has great bestselling books, and he's Professor Wharton. He hosts his own podcast. He said to me, kathy, you don't have to say something new if you say something true. And every day when people are scrolling through Instagram, they're scrolling through for a new podcast or looking for content, the thing that they've found in the data is that what makes people click, what makes people share it. It's not the celebrity of it. It's not how much information is in it, it's how much what it's talking about reflects what you feel. And so how often are people posting things and they're trying to be pretty and they're trying to be perfect and they're trying to whatever, fill in the blank. Meanwhile, it's the post that says something like, you're not as broken as you think. It's the post that says something like, you know, don't compare yourself to people on the Internet. Like we're, we're all figuring it out. You know, don't be, you don't have to be perfect. Remember what you know, how, how proud of you your 11 year old self would be. It's those kind of posts that make you go. And then if in the comments you can say something like, I've been struggling. I don't have a perfect marriage. I don't have sex every day. I don't think of myself as, you know, Lori. You say stuff like that like you'll be like, it's been a road, you know, it's a journey. Like we work on it and that's what makes it actually something that you want to be around. That's what attracts people to it. It's not like, oh yeah, I just have always had it all together. Like, who wants to be. You can't lead somebody if you really want to help somebody. Right? It's like a gps. We have to know where you are so we can route you to where you want to be. And you'll only follow someone if they can come meet you where you are. So you can't help someone out of a well unless you've been down there before. And we all, this is what's so sad. We all have the ability to create that empathy for other people. And instead of comparing yourself to other people saying, well, you know, Rachel Hollis is already doing stuff like that or if you think she is or not, it doesn't matter. Because that's actually the point is it doesn't matter. That's the point. It's ridiculous. It's not like you have to be Starman. It's like you're Wonder Woman. We decide you're the one and only human who gets to make a difference in the world and everybody else is inferior. So there's no reason for them to start their coffee shop or do a yoga class because it's already been done by the best. That's, that's ridiculous. And so you have something to add and by the way, that's all you have to know. Like, instead of saying, like, who am I to start a podcast? Who am I to start a business? Who am I to do this network marketing thing? There's already four people better than. Do you have anything to add to the conversation? Is there any value? Because people don't need you to be the one and only messiah in order for you to add value to the world. If you're here, you matter. God doesn't make extras. So if you're here, I'm telling you, he believes that you have something to add to the conversation, and you need to get busy adding it. Even if it's messy. It's like, why else are you here other than to know that you're needed? You've been assigned. You've been assigned to be part of the story that this world is telling, and if we didn't need you, you wouldn't be here.

Oh, man. Something that really stuck in my head that you have said is purpose is the opposite of depress. For me, that is always just such a reminder that when I feel a little down or I'm feeling really tired. And I know that, believe me, I sleep and eat really well and exercise and do all the things. And my tired does not come from my health. It comes from when I feel lack of really clear purpose. So that's been really huge for me just to pay really close attention to. And I'll tell you that there was a point last year where I was like, man, my purpose is. It's changing, and I don't know what it is yet. And it felt very scary because I've definitely. It's not that. And this is what I want people to hear right now. So I want to. I want to go into having you kind of, like, expand on this. I have had many big purposes that have called me, given me energy, given me life. Of course they've scared me. Of course, every time I've thought, who am I to do this? But there is a really, really scary point where after a big purpose is done and you can't see the next one, and a lot of it's not just the thoughts of, like, maybe I'm done. Maybe I'm washed up. Maybe this is all that life had to offer. Maybe I already lived the best. Maybe I've already hit the peak. Maybe, you know, I don't get to experience those emotions all the time. Like, it can be a pretty low place. So what do you say around just those places for people, oh, my God.

I can Totally, totally relate to that, by the way. Oh, my God. When I was so I was a songwriter, I was signed to Interscope, I was dropped. I got a bunch of day jobs. Then I found a way to go back into music. And I wrote music for film and TV for 10 years. And then I started having success. And I remember when I hit some of those benchmarks, like, I remember being featured in Billboard magazine, like a full page spread, right? Because I was doing all these great songs for tv like One Tree Hill and Dawson's Creek and Pretty Little Liars and writing theme songs and I was making a career. And then I like, remember the day after that Billboard article came out with the big picture of me and all of that stuff. And the next day I felt so depressed. And I was like, why do I feel depressed? I was like, I feel depressed because I'm done. I don't want to do this at all anymore. I'm so over it. And nothing's different today. Like, I've now been making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year writing music. I've gotten to do all the things. I've gotten to write music at Pixar and Netflix and all of this stuff, and I don't want to do it anymore. I don't even want to do it. I'm done. It's been a decade, and so what else is there for me to do? Like, I thought, I'm going to be featured in Billboard. That's so cool. Like, that'll do something. And then the next day something will happen, someone will call, or there'll be the next thing that opens up. But there was no. There were calls, but it was more like, great, awesome. But then it was like, okay, keep your foot on the gas and keep making it up on your own. There was no, like, you've arrived, you know, like, we'll all take it from here and show you what to do next. It was none of that. And I've had that so many times. So many times. And I had it with the podcast. Now we're approaching 15 million downloads. We've had the show up for three years. We're number four on the chart. I've worked so hard, and I remember when we started to have this success about six months ago, and I was like, what am I supposed to do now? What's the next thing? And that feeling is this feeling of you shivering, you shiver because we have to bolt out of bed like a lion and feel like there's work to be done and that we can do some work or Else we again, you need that purpose. And I feel like number one, every day that you're here is legit. That is your little post it note from God saying, like, you're here. That means I need you. Okay, so we need to keep asking that question of like, where can I serve today? Like, who can I show up for? And sometimes we don't get the huge big answer right away because sometimes we are starting to shed our old skin and grow into a new part. It's new, right? It's like when you finish one level of the video game and now you're going to the next one. And so it's a different world. The screen changes color, you're starting it right and you're. You need to give yourself a second to not be crushing it and know exactly, but to give yourself a second to go, okay, where what is feeling good to me. And sometimes it's scary because you do know. Sometimes the words. I don't know, is it just a big old limiting belief?

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Sometimes we do know, but we say to ourselves, oh, no, that's just ridiculous. Because I already built a business doing this and the whisper is telling me to do something completely different. Like, I have a friend who was crushing it in commercial real estate. She was making millions a year. Lady boss, okay? Living in Brentwood, all the things. And then realized she wanted to go into being like a spiritual coach. And she's like, I will Lose the practice I built. I think people will think I'm an idiot. And who am I? Because I look up to people like Marianne Williamson, and I'm a girl who, like, drives a fancy car. Like, why would. And so she just kept saying, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. And I was like, you know what you're supposed to do. You're just not leaning into it because you have all this self doubt coming up. Who am I to be a spiritual teacher? Am I even credible enough? How could I even help anybody? Am I even feminine enough? Like, all these things were coming at her. And so slowly, slowly, slowly, she had to start to claim, no, this is what I'm doing. And with baby shaky steps, she had to go back to being new at something which doesn't feel good, especially when you're already, like, crushing it in one area. And I've done that now six times. Like, I had to leave the music world and, like, raise my scary hand as a big old imposter and be like, I'm starting a podcast. Like, Kath Seth Godin, beat you to it. Like, there's people here. What are you doing? And it was like, I feel I'm supposed to do this. I want to do this. That's the point. I want to learn how to be great at this because I want to do it. It feels interesting to me. And my God, I'm so glad that I did because I didn't want to be doing music anymore. So I think that there is always something there. We have to ask ourselves, like, where's the joy? What lights you up right now? Because, God, sometimes that new thing that seems like, why bother? Or it would never turn into a business, or you can't make anything out of it. There's a whisper and there's a synchronicity that comes when you trust that whisper and you trust that process. When Martha Beck was on my podcast, she talked about how she was a Harvard professor. She has three Harvard degrees, and she's Oprah's life coach, and she's a sociology professor, so she really gets people. And she couldn't believe how much of the world that lives in free societies, not people who have no choice, but free societies. She couldn't believe how many people choose to do things they don't like. And she said, it's amazing how easy we discount the thing that's just, like, lighting up a little bit. Little whisper. And she wrote a book called finding your own North Star about how you should do more of what you love and less of what you don't like and how much wisdom is in that. And do you know what lights up in the brain more than anything else, more than love, is enthusiasm. So even if you're starting something and you're like, I don't know anything about this, but I'm so excited about it, they're going to come because we want to be around enthusiasm. It gives us oxygen. That's like when a plant needs photosynthesis, a human needs enthusiasm. So if you have unbridled and you don't have the answers and you didn't write the book on it, but this is like, you want to now start this little thing that just like, creeping up. Trust it. Because people will want to be around someone who's enthusiastic about something.

I freaking love that you just said that. Because, number one, I'm doing a new thing. Number two, I want to know where you're at in a minute. But I. I heard the. I think. Is it enthu. That the root word? Do you know what I'm talking about? Of enthusiasm? Is it with God or of God or something like that?

Yeah, I think it means with God.

Yeah. That is just. Which is. That's how you feel when you feel enthusiastic. It's like a feeling that is like, outside energy that is like, coming in to help move you forward on whatever this thing is. And I can truly say that the things that have worked in my life are those things that I've just been like, screw it. I'm excited about this. I'm gonna keep talking about my excitement. I'm not gonna shut up about it. I'm gonna share it. And somehow that's how it's like, I know nothing about it, but here's what's gonna fuel it. And then it's gonna give me space around the stuff I don't understand, so.

Yeah, exactly. And I think what it is is that when you've been successful at one thing, you feel a pressure that, like, you can't just try something just cause you think it. Well, you did that. It served you pretty well up till now. But no, now you can't. You know, it's kind of like Jennifer Aniston just won the SAG award for, like, best actress in a drama. Right. But the very first time she, like, put her toe in the water to do drama, she probably felt like people are gonna be like, who are you to do it? And she wasn't really sure because she started out really just doing comedy for so long, and she had to give Herself the permission to not crush it out. The. And to figure it out. But that means you're figuring out in front of people, which can be a little bit. You can be like, I don't want to put this out on Instagram and do a poll about this. What do people think is the dumbest thing ever? Okay, so what? So what? And for those of you who are not coming from that perspective, you might be like, kath, this doesn't relate to me. I'm not Lori Harder. I didn't make millions already, and I wasn't the dancer. That's not my issue. It still relates to you. Because all of us, at one point, by the age of nine, everyone has learned, you better get it right and you better be perfect. Why? Because by the age of nine, every one of us has felt rejection. Every one of us has felt loss. And so we come up with the strategy of, like, oh, I know what I'll do. I'll never be messy, and I'll never be vulnerable. Boom. Now I'll never get hurt. So it's the same point, because you're trying to avoid pain because you're smart, and that was your survival skill. And I don't blame you, because I know that you guys have been through it. Because I've been through it. I know what Lori's been through. Everyone has. I know now. It's never a surprise that people have been through so much trauma. I get it. I'm. This is welcome. Welcome. It's like any movie you watch. Why? Why are we surprised when in every movie, you're never surprised that there's a big plot twist? You're like, oh, yeah, here comes the drama, right? That's life in our own lives. We shouldn't be surprised that the person standing next to us has been through so much and is so deserving to have seen, soldiered through. But because of that pain, that very real pain, you make up all of these things which then make you feel confused. But it's not confusion. It's, I don't want to be messy. So for me, I realized that the next frontier for me, I realized this about a year and a half ago, was I had built this big audience I had built trust and intimacy with. My book was coming out, and people kept asking me to coach. People asked me to create programs, and I felt that this feeling of, like, well, gulp, I have to create a program now, and I have to step out on, like, a shaky little leg. Like, when Bambi is born and your little legs are, like, barely wobbling familiar. Yeah. Got it.

I feel you.

That was this morning. Yeah. So I felt like I had to do the work to figure out what I would teach, and I asked myself those scary questions and go through that process. But now, a year and a half later, I just feel so proud of having done that, because now I have this. I have a program just like you got so many good programs. And my program is called Made to Do this. And that's not even why I'm here. So that really, really wasn't my point of going into the whole pitch, because it's whatever, but it's also something you.

Love to hear, so.

Yeah. But the point is I finally figured out what I was made to do, and so I named the program Made to Do this. Because my program is about helping people find the thing. Because I realized by testing, by creating, this is the thing. When you make a business, people always think you have to have it figured out before you go to the market. It's the opposite. You're never, never, never gonna make your best friend the dinner she wants. If you guess, go ask her, be like, do you want a steak? Oh, you're vegan now. I'm so glad I didn't just make dinner. Great. I'm gonna get you that. I know the best place to get that from. That's gonna make it win. So we have to actually have the courage to. To do what every single successful person has done, which is to make something messy. Go to someone and go, what do you think? And let me feedback it, let me tweak it. So by doing that, what I actually realized is that my audience didn't want me to come out from, like, the top, top staircase, the top of the staircase, and say, here's how you make seven figures. My audience, as it turned out, after doing a lot with them, which was scary, I realized they don't even know what they wanted to do. They had buried their own little whisper of their voice so far, deep down, they needed help coming back home to themselves. They needed help really figuring out that they do love this thing and awakening that. And then also, is that something that could be a business? And sometimes we love two things, but one of them is probably going to be profitable because it's something that someone else needs. And the other thing is something you should just do because it awakens your soul and makes you happy. And that's a hobby. So people needed clarity around that. And I was like, I can do that. I can totally do that for people. Yay. And then I realized they Just needed some of those basics to start making five grand. Like, how do you get to the first five grand? I was like, I can totally do that. I got it. But I would never have even known had I didn't start and try. And so now I feel like, you know, I'm really excited, but I'm sure the kaleidoscope is going to click a few more notches, and eight months from now or three years from now, I'm gonna be in the next place where I have to level up and move through my own upper limit and. And do the next scary frontier.

If you were to have to say right now, like, let's just say we're. We're putting money down on a bet, would you be able to say with a tiny, tiny inkling of what you feel could be on the horizon for you? Like, if you're like, this is really piquing my curiosity over here that you're paying attention to, for me personally, for what's next. Like, what's next level for you? That freaks you out a bit. But has that come to you yet? Or are you still.

Oh, God, no. I totally have. Okay, great. I mean, I feel like, for me, it's like. I feel like I've been sort of hiding in this podcast, and, you know, it's doing really well, so that's great. But I kind of feel like it's hiding in the sense of, like, most people. Most people. And I actually know this from hard data because Apple did research to find out, and most people don't even know they have a podcast app on their phone that's native with their phone. So it's. It's a fact. Most people don't listen to podcasts. So I feel like it's been my. Like, I can just hide over here and do it over here. And I kind of know I'm supposed to be like. Like, I was just asked to speak. I'm going to Vegas next week to speak to 1300 people. And every time I get asked to come to one of these events, usually I'm like, oh, I can't. But I have three kids. And I kind of know, like, it's like. Like, it's not. It's. It's. It's kind of selfish now. I feel like God's like, cath. Like, if people, for whatever reason, if you're able to pick the lock to their heart with how you speak and what you say, like, get off the bench, like, enough is enough, like, it's not fair anymore, then you have to Move through your own fear and, like, go bigger. Like, so I come up with wonderful excuses to not be bigger. I'll be like, I don't want to have an ego. It's like, well, no, that is ego. Because, like, if you're meant to serve, it's not about you. I don't think Oprah's like, this is about me. When I'm on stage in front of 20,000 people, she's like, I would rather be home, but I'm here to serve and I'm called to do it. So it's like, I better go do what I'm supposed to do or else who's going to do this? So it's not about having an ego. So I've had to push through that. And so, yeah, I do think that that's next Frontier. And I got signed to UTA about six months ago and they're talking a lot about, like, me doing TV stuff. And again, I'm always like, whatever, I don't need it. So I kind of don't follow up as much. You'd think I'd follow up more with these meetings we've had. But we've had a couple exciting meetings and then I'll be like, scary. Let's go back to the podcast. I can do that from my pajama pants. So that's coming up for me a lot. And just owning it. When we look at people and they're doing the things we think that someone came along and said, I give you the star, you're allowed to sit at the table. But really they gave themselves permission to come sit at the table. And we all kind of know that we play it small. And I think for me, like, this year we just did this huge challenge. We did a five day challenge, and I think we had just under 20,000 people in it. And for the first time, I was just resolute like, you guys, this is, of course, of course this is good stuff. As opposed to being like, no, it's kind of like, how dare I not do everything I can to make you aware of this if I know it will have the power to give you a breakthrough? Like, that would be so not. That's actually morally not okay. And so I'm finally like, Kat, this isn't about you, okay? If you know that you've done that now for hundreds of thousands, for millions of people, like, enough's enough. And here's the thing, even if you're like, but I haven't. If you've gotten a result for yourself, if you've lost the weight. If you've helped your sister organize her closet and you're like, I shouldn't be a professional organizer. It's like, again, not okay. You're morally obligated at this point if you think you can make somebody's life better. And in case anyone out there is listening and saying, I don't know how to find my passion, let me give you a couple things that you can think of. Just because you asked me before when you're in that place, and what. Because I talked a lot about, like, maybe it's just a limiting belief, but what if you're like, no, Kathy, I legitimately don't know.

Yes.

Let me give you a couple questions you can ask yourself and a couple things you can do. One thing is that often our audience, the person we're going to serve is you. It's you before you. Before you lost the weight. You. Before you found that thing that you needed. Like, my friends Doug and Justin started Halo Top because Justin's a hypoglycemic and he wanted an ice cream. Yeah. And he want. I know there's a lot. They just sold it for tons of money. But they were on the podcast and they told the story about how Justin was like, I need an ice cream that I can eat because I'm a diabetic. So his audience is people who wanted ice cream with less sugar. Right. So often our pain turns into purpose. So if you realize, like, Lori did that, like, having a tribe was so important, it's like, can you go back to what it felt like to be the kid or be the person who didn't have that, and now you do, and you can create a membership of women that gets together, you know, like, so that's one thing to think about, because often your audience is you, and your pain turns into purpose. And there's a clue there. But also, you could make a list of, like, five things that would be your dream life if you didn't have to come up with the how. Because the how ruins everybody's day. Oh, forget it. I don't know. You know, it's like, let that go. So write it down on a sheet of paper. Like, I'd want to open a bread and breakfast or be a travel writer or whatever. And then maybe close your eyes because the body does not lie. And picture yourself doing each one of these things. And just notice in your chest, in your actual body, which one feels the most expansive. And then can you take the next baby step? Like, do you know someone who owns a Bed and breakfast, who you could shadow for a day. Can you have lunch with the person who has that hand lettering business? Because you just want to get a little closer to that and you want to know more about it. Can you take a class? Can you go to a photography class just to start to see, like, do I really like photography? Like, what's that next teensy tiny little step? And then if you're like, I know I've already done a lot of that and I would want to do the next thing to see if it's even possible to turn into a business, it's like, who are three people you can give this thing to for free right now? Like, if your thing is creating a group for women, do you have three friends who you could have come over and make space for them and come up with, like, a prototype of what that evening or what that morning would be like, and then at the end be like, did you like this? Would you want to do this again? Is this something you'd pay for if I made it like this, this, and this. And then once a month I brought in a speaker who'd do this and I'd create excursions for us or whatever you have in mind. Same thing with the other stuff. Like, if you do, like, professional organizing, are there three people you could offer to do it for, for free to see again? Do you really like it? Did they benefit from it? And how valuable is that? The clarity comes from doing so. Sometimes by doing a little bit of those things, you get so much more momentum than you would think. And they're, they're simple things. We just forget. We forget to do them.

Man, those are so good. And I can, I can say tried and true. That is, that is the exact path that I've taken to getting answers. So it 100% on the other side, like, works. It is brilliant. It's like. And I think what I would like to have you expand on a little bit, because I know that here's the areas that I held myself back in. I was like, okay, here it is. And, and here's how it feels. And I'm so clear. And, oh, my God, I got that feeling that I know is the feeling that's gonna carry me. That it's the feeling that lets me know I'm clear, that I'm 100% in alignment. And then the next day or that night when I'm tired, I go to bed and I start freaking out and it doesn't feel right anymore.

Yeah, please send help. Okay, here's the thing. With that. So, yes, I have three little girls, and I love it because I get to. It's princesses all day. My husband's like, really? Come on. He buys them gloves, he buys them the bas fall. And I'm like, they just want the glitter. Sorry. So yesterday, they were home for MLK Day, and they were all watching Moana. It was great. And I love, by the way, shout out to Pixar for making movies where, like, the girls are not being rescued by the guy. It's great. We're in a good moment in history. So I'm watching this movie with them, and I'm like, this is all of us. This isn't just our story. The reason people love this movie is because all of us, at some point, walk as far, just up to the tip of where the shore comes up to the ocean, and we go, no, right? And then, even though we keep walking away, something in the horizon does keep calling. It will not let you go. But your whole life, you've been given this message of, like, moana, don't go in. You're gonna drown. People have tried. They've failed. You'll. You'll die. You'll make a fool of yourself. You'll. You won't make it. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, you're not safe. Just stay here. You're safe, you're safe, you're safe, you're safe. And there's a. There's something inside of you that says, what I want more than being safe is I want to be in alignment with myself. I want to do me. I want to be exhilarated. I want to be alive. I want to be alive. And for some reason, I don't want to be in this little safety zone. And so that's the part of us, right? Like, everyone has had a moment where then they get bold and they dive in and they leave the dock and they jump and amazing things happen, right? You know, you make a decision to date the person, even though you're scared, of course, you can get your heart broken. That takes so much courage. You do it anyway. You make the decision to post something, you press publish on something, and the blog goes up, and it touches one human being, or you learn from it, and you do the second one, which leads you to the 8th one. And finally the 12th one is really good. And you could never have done it if you didn't have the courage to hit the first publish button on that first eight set of posts. So the sky is calling. The horizon is calling all of us. It's Never going to stop whispering to you. Right? And I think for all of us, that is the test of our life, where it's like at every moment, there's another step forward. And as long as we're here, fortune favors the brave. And every time I see someone like you, Laurie, or anyone, I'm at the Hollywood bowl and I'm watching somebody, or I'm reading a play someone wrote, or I'm sitting in an office where somebody is doing their thing because they're a therapist, any. Anything. Or I walk into Jonathan Adler's store. It doesn't matter. I'm like, I'm surrounded right now by courage, because this person didn't begin Serena Williams. This person gave themself the courage to say, like, I'm gonna make something messy and mediocre because I'm. I'm headed towards that horizon. And I'm not going to back down because everybody knows deep down, like, we're going to get tested. Have you ever seen a movie going back to that metaphor where someone doesn't get tested? And it's like, why do you love Rudy? Why do you love any of these movies? Why do you love the Devil Wears Prada? Any movie. Willy Wonka? There's no movie where the person is not tested. And what we love about these movies, what we love about the hero, is not that, oh, you. You want to play football for Notre Dame. It's that you know deep down that you have a capacity bigger than you allow yourself to be in. And when this person keeps going, the tears stream down your face because you're like, I. I know that that's inside of me. And boy, do I want. Boy, do I want to push through what everyone's been telling me.

Man, I just. I. I want to just build you a church so I can go, oh.

My God, it's so cute. I'm like, let's make our own church. I love it. Great. I want to go.

I do, too.

It's perfect.

I could talk to you all day, and maybe I will. Maybe I'll just keep you all day. We'll see. But I just want to. I want to say to everybody listening, if you feel how I feel right now, where you are just exhilarated, enthusiastic, on fire. I want to observe that. This, even if it's not your own belief, like, I'm completely, 1 million percent borrowing your belief and enthusiasm right now, and it works. So if you guys want to know more about your purpose and exactly how to do that and going to the next level, I'm Telling you, your book is probably one of the most practical, tangible books about this that is so real that I've ever laid my hands on.

Oh, my God. That means so much to me because I'm so into the emotional stuff, and I didn't want it to be only that I knew that people needed that, and I was like, I really hope they walk away feeling like these are the steps. It's not just inspiration, but it's going to help you. By the end, you'll be like, oh, I can do something. I can actually go and take action. Come. Because it's all about that action. It's all about getting in there, and I'm so glad you feel that way.

For real. You guys go in for real. I want to see uploads of the book, because if you are, there's no. I've Been there before. That place of, like, wanting to blame and wanting to, you know, talk about our past stories and why we can't, and it's just. It's the most miserable place to be. And I just feel like when we can free ourselves and know that there is steps of action and really know what the journey looks like and start building your tribe around that and really have and truly, this is, like, it's permission and it's the steps. So go grab her book. It's Don't Keep youp Day Job, obviously. Go subscribe to her podcast. You're fricking amazing. I can't wait to see you speak more. Maybe I'll chat with you about speaking when we're done with this.

Oh, no. What did I do? I know.

What did you do? I don't know. I'm excited to find out Anyway. I just want to say I'm so grateful for you. I swear. I always get these messages where I'm like, hey, you guys really do just need to go to coffee. So I think we should just put dates at some point to do that.

100%.

All right, so where can we find you? Follow you, all of those things.

Awesome. First of all, Lori is such an incredible ambassador for being a human. I just think you're one in a zillion. And everyone who knows you and listens to the show knows that that's not a line. Everybody knows that. That's true. You can follow me on Instagram. I'm, like, so proud that they, like, gave me my little verification. I was like, oh, my God. It's so dumb. It's so dumb that it meant so much.

So great.

I was like, oh, my God. But I actually am obsessed with work because I don't find it a job. I really like it, so I answer every dm. So I'm insane. So if you want to find me there, you can. I even voice note people sometimes because I like to. Because I just do. And then I'm also on my website, kathyheller.com and we actually spent my. The summer, we developed a quiz for people to take to help them figure out what their calling is. And it's really fun. And of course, it's free. So there's that too@kathyheller.com and Kathy is with a C. And then the podcast is Don't Keep youp Day Job, Wherever you listen to podcasts. And we did an episode where we had Lori on, and she was so good, so good. And we should have you back on, but you can go check it out and you'll hear people like Bobby Brown, the makeup artist, and Mandy Moore and Barbara Corcoran and Howard Schultz telling his Starbucks buck's story of how he built that. You guys, he. He grew up living in public housing. It's. That's an amazing story. So, yeah, come check it out.

You are amazing. You guys definitely will put all of that in the show notes.

And here's.

Here's the deal. If you loved this episode, if you're like, oh, my God, I'm on fire, please do not keep that to yourself. Grab this, text this to a friend right now. Put it out on your stories. Tag us. And what I think one of the coolest things that people can do that I always think is, like, the best thing ever. It's like, like, honestly, probably the coolest thing as a podcaster is if you tag both of us in this episode and tell us what your biggest takeaway was like, what actually affected you. So we can do that. Isn't that the best when people do that? It's my favorite. I'm like, please tell me what you liked about it so we can repeat it. What celebrated gets repeated.

And I was just thinking, and I haven't. I swear I wasn't thinking this before, but if you. Because Lori made such a beautiful pitch for my book, which I wasn't expecting. That's so nice. If you do buy the book, first of all, you can get on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, whatever. But if you do, let me know because I'll send you. We have. So we have this amazing set of bonus material where we made this whole workbook and stuff and we gave it away in the summer. And I'll give it to you and it might really help. So if you buy the book and you let me know, I'll send it to you.

So should they let you know through DMs?

Yeah. Me. Yeah.

Okay. Perfect. You heard it, you guys. All right, Kathy, thank you so much. And until next time, earn your happy.

Bye, everyone.

Thank you guys so much for spending this time with me on the earn your happy podcast. I am so glad that you stopped by. If you could take one second to share this episode with someone you think would love it, that would be absolutely amazing and we would be forever grateful. Also, please leave us a review if you feel so moved by going to itunes and leaving us an honest thought, an honest comment. Tell us what you think, tell us what you want to hear more of it would really help us out on our journey to helping thousands and thousands of people. Until then, don't forget to earn your happy. Thanks again, guys.

Bye. Bye.