52 What Makes a HAPPINESS EXPERT, HAPPY with Gretchen Rubin

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Welcome to the Earn your Happy Podcast. I'm Lori Harder, founder of The Bliss Project, 3 Time Fitness World champion, fitness expert and cover model, turned self love junkie, lifestyle entrepreneur and author.

Each week I'll bring you a guest.

Or a thought that will help you bust through your fears, connect to your soul, and get focused and clear. Clear so you can elevate your life, business and relationships. We don't wait until we're ready for someone to tell us we're good enough. We take what we want and we anoint ourselves. Get ready to earn, own, and unapologetically rock your happiness every single day. Are you with me? Here we go. Welcome back to the Earn your happy podcast and today I'm thrilled to have Gretchen Rubin on the show. She is an author of several books, including the blockbuster New York Times bestseller, Better than before, the Happiness Project, which I loved, and happier at home. She is known for practical advice drawn from cutting edge research, and she really is one of the most interesting people I've gotten to talk to. So she's been interviewed by Oprah several times and walked arm in arm with the Dalai Lama. And this conversation was so much fun. We talked all about the things that make her happy, that used to make her happy that won't make other people happy. And I know that you're going to be surprised by some of these simple shifts that you can make to start getting happier right now. So let's get started. Gretchen, I'm so incredibly excited to have you on the show. Thank you so much for coming on.

Oh, thank you. I'm very happy to be talking to you.

This is so much fun because I know that you have a podcast as well, which we are going to talk about in a little bit. But for the two people who are listening who may not know your story, I would love for you just to share a little bit about yourself. I know that you started in law and you became a New York Times bestselling author, but let's just start from the beginning.

Yeah, well, yeah, you're right. I started my career in law and I was actually clerking for Justice Sandra Day o' Connor when I realized, you know what? I don't want to be a lawyer. I want to be a writer. And so it took me a little while to make that transition. And I wrote several books. And the book, though, that I'm best known for probably is my book the Happiness Project, which was actually my fourth or fifth book, which was when I decided to spend a year test driving the wisdom of the ages. The current scientific studies and the lessons from popular culture about how to be happy. I wanted to know, could I make myself happier? So I spent a year kind of breaking it down and figuring that out. And then I wrote a book, Happier at Home, which is all about happiness, but really looking very deeply at the idea of home, which is one of the few universals most people really do want to be happy at home. And then my most recent book called Better than Before, is all about habits, how we can make and break our habits. Because what I found in studying happiness is that a lot of times when people have a happiness challenge, they point to a problem that at its core is a habit problem. Like someone says, I'm exhausted all the time, and that's about the habit of getting enough sleep or I can never save enough money. And that's about the habit of regular saving or not impulse buying or, you know, how would you change your habits to tackle that? And as you say, I have a podcast, I have a website, you know, I've got a bunch of stuff going on, all related to sort of how do we live lives that are healthier, happier, more creative, and more productive?

Oh, I love that. A happiness problem is a habits problem. That's just. It makes you realize right away just the switching of that thought process. So, Gretchen, what are you. You have so much going on, but what are you most excited about right now? What's lighting you up the most right now?

Oh, there's so many things. Well, I love the podcast that you mentioned, Happier with Gretchen Rubin. I do it with my sister Elizabeth Craft, and that is a ton of fun. Tomorrow we're recording. So I've been deep in my PODC world, and I'm also working on a book about the four tendencies. In my book, Better than before, I developed this personality framework that divides all of humanity into four categories. They say there are two kinds of people. The kind of people who like to divide people into two kinds of people, and the kind of people who don't. And I do. And so, and so many people have emailed me and talked to me and asked me follow up questions about this personality framework that, you know, I just, I kept kind of answering and answering, answering, and it turned into this whole book. So I'm really excited to be working on that. About that personality framework.

Oh, that is like, I'm an analyzer, so that kind of excites me.

Yeah, we all like to kind of like take a. There's a quiz, you know, like on my site, you know, you can take a Quiz and find out what you are. And yeah, it's fun and I think it really is illuminating.

Mm, totally. I find, I find the more self aware that I can become, it's just the happier I can become too because I can notice when I'm doing something just like you had said in the beginning, it's just kind of I can notice it and if it's something I can fix or I can do something different, you know, those are actionable items that you can create change that shift that you're looking for.

So I mean I, I think you're 100% correct and. Oh, more and more and more all the time. I see that self knowledge is just at the core of everything. And you think it would just be so hell EAS to know ourselves because we just hang out with ourselves all day long. But it's actually very challenging and. But I think you're 100% correct. It's really, it's the most important thing we can do.

It's funny because, you know, I love the topic of happiness. That's a reason that I'm really drawn to you. Is it just. There was a point in my life or a time in my life where I really was not happy and it's not like I had a horrible life by any means, but looking back, I look at now to then and what I was thinking and what I was doing and I was doing a lot of the same things, but it was how I was thinking of them. And when you become so aware of, wow, I just had a really negative tone around having to work out or having to pay bills or having to go see this person because I'm an introvert or whatever that is. And now it's like shifting into being excited about it and what if I couldn't do that? And you know, and really maybe I call it the takeaway. Is there something that you do for yourself just in your little thoughts throughout the day over the Monday that helps you shift?

Oh, constantly. No, I think you're exactly right. It's really astonishing actually how you can just reframe something and feel very differently about it. No, I think one of the things you said is absolutely true. It's not that I have to do this, it's I get to do this. And I remember I had this thought because I was taking my younger daughter to the pediatrician where she was going to get shots, so she really, you know, she had to get her vaccination so she really didn't want to go and I didn't want to take her. And I was thinking, oh my gosh, what a drag. I hate, I hate doctor's appointments anyway. You know, I hate. Blah, blah, blah. And then I thought, well, what if somebody came up to me? What if my mother in law, who lives right around the corner for me, came and said, I'll take her to the doctor? Would I, would I say, oh, that'd be great. I'd be like, no, I want to take her to the doctor. Because yeah, it's not that it's not a happy experience, but I want to be there for my daughter when she's getting these shots. I feel lucky that I could take her to the doctor. You know, like, what if I were traveling and I couldn't do it? I would feel bad that I missed it. So that's a way to reframe. And another way, like in terms of like getting perspective, is to say the days are long but the years are short. Because sometimes, like one day in our life, you just feel like, oh my gosh, it's an eternity until I'm going to be getting back into bed and think of all the things I have to do. But then a year passes in a flash. And so I think it reminds me to treasure the moment and really try to experience and appreciate the moment and to remember that even if something's not pleasant, it'll be over soon. Or if there's aspects of something like we have a new puppy and he's chewing up everything, but people are like, this is what puppies do and he'll grow out of it and then you'll miss the days when you had a little puppy. And so, and it's really true.

My husband and I are always saying this because as you, you know, as you gain more success, you get more responsibility and sometimes it's easy for us to play off of each other, you know, like, ah, I'm so overwhelmed and I have this and oh, you have this call and he has this and I have this and. And all of a sudden we'll just kind of slow down. We like to go for walks because that kind of just clears everything, right? And nature's so, so can help with that. And it's remembering that there was a time where I yearned for responsibility. I yearned for people to, you know, look to me for advice, for messages in my inbox, for emails. And then right away I'm like, oh, oh, that's right. That was miserable when I was at that point wishing that I could live in my purpose. So that's been really huge for us.

Yeah, I did. I did. On my blog, I did an interview with Mindy Kaling, who's just one of my favorite TV writers and actors. And she's written two great books. And she said that when she feels herself getting too snappy and too annoyed, she often thinks back to Mindy years ago, who if she had known that she was gonna be a TV writer, she would have thought, oh my gosh, that is the best thing that could possibly happen. How could you ever have even one complaint? Because how happy you would be. And she said, just remembering that earlier self, just like you're doing, remembering how lucky and happy the earlier self would be to find yourself in your current situation. It does help. Again, it's about putting it in perspective and remembering. Like, it's not that this isn't annoying or that I don't feel overwhelmed, but, you know, this is what I want. My sister, who's a TV writer, has a sign in her office that says, it's a fun job and I enjoy it. To remind herself when she's complaining about work, this is a fun job and I enjoy it. You know, sometimes we need to remind ourselves.

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Like team meetings were like, but we love it.

This is the fun part. No, I say that to myself. I'm like this is the fun part.

You know, it's so much better. Like you know when you go to bed and your head hits the pillow and it's just the feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction and the fact that you.

Get to do it.

You know, if we're lucky enough to get to do it, helping other people. Oh, it's the best. So your podcast. I listened to an episode recently about best advice that you were chatting with your sister. So I want to know share some I would love to hear some of the best advice you've ever gotten. And then also is there anything that you've best advice you feel like you've Ever given that you feel is really good, so gotten and then given.

Well, a great piece of advice that my father gave me when I was sort of starting into my work life is he said, if you take the blame when you deserve it, you will get responsibility. And I have found that to be so very true and that in work situations and like, if there's this sort of free floating blame around, like, people get extremely distracted by that and they get very annoyed if you don't take responsibility, if you've made a mistake. And yet, and I remember being like a young person and I was sort of, I had a position where I was supervising a lot of people who were more experienced than I was. And there was sort of a situation where I could have easily. There was sort of a screw up and I could easily have just said nothing and nobody would have thought anything of it. But I said in this meeting, they did that because I told them to do that. I thought that that's what we had agreed should be done. So they did that because I said so. So that's on me and you. And I was very afraid that it would like under undermine me, but actually gave me more. People felt more comfortable giving me responsibility. So that was great advice my mother gave me. She made, well, this isn't really advice, but it's a great observation and it kind of turns into advice, which is, I was very nervous before my wedding. You know, I was like all like, what about this and what about that? So many things can go wrong. And then my mother said, you know, the things that go wrong often make the best memories. And it's really true. And it's a great thing to keep in mind. When you're like on your trip to France and something goes terribly wrong, you're like, this is probably what I'll remember the best. And look back on it and laugh about how you got food poisoning or whatever. It's a very comforting thing to remember. And then the advice I always give, I think is, and I talked about this on the podcast, is for people who are writing that the most important thing is to have something to say. And that a lot of times when people are struggling with their writing, it's because they don't really know what they want to say or they don't really have something to say. And you think, why would you be writing if you don't have something to say? It actually comes up quite a lot. And so if you ever are stuck, just kind of step back and think, what do I want to say? And I actually Got an email from a listener afterwards, and she said that she's an editor, and she will often say to people who are stuck, just tell me what it is that you're. What is it that you're trying to convey? And have them talk it through. And she'll take notes. And then she gives them the notes and says, like, well, start here, because this is what you're trying to say. And then she said, often, once they're sort of over that hurdle, then they see how they can proceed.

Ooh, love that. I'm writing my first book right now, so that's really good. I'm like, what else do you have for writers? I love that about all of it. That's funny. That was the one piece of advice when I was listening to your podcast that stood out, that you said, your dad. Right. About just owning it. That's so huge. I can remember points in my life where I've owned it and just felt you even feel better, you know, like you're realizing how much growth you have. And also, when I just. When I'm looking to hire any employee at all, that's what I want the most. I just want someone to say, I acknowledge that. And that's when I really, really, really just have so much respect for that person. Like, when they can just own their mistakes, you know? And also the stories, because the stories of the things that go wrong. I swear to you, if things didn't go wrong, I don't know if I'd be funny. So it's like everything that I share. All right, so what message has really resonated the most with people? Just from all of your. You know, you're on so many interviews, you talk so much, you do a lot of. You have so many different books. Is there, like a through line that is just so human, something that always comes up no matter what you talk about?

You know what's funny? The one. Because I've talked about so many happiness resolutions and habits, and people come up to me and they're like, oh, I've worked on my habits. I've done my own happiness project. And I always say, well, what did you do? What worked for you? Because I'm fascinated. Exactly. Like your question, what strikes a chord with people? And I've heard a million gazillion answers. But the thing that people most often specifically say, and I'm not saying this is the most significant thing, the most significant habit you could change to boost your happiness, but people do mention it the most often, is the habit of making your bed. Over and over, people say to me, I started making my bed and it just made me happier. There's something about this little manageable bit of orderliness at the beginning of our day. And then they're like, the head of the Navy SEALS gave the speech and he talked about why he made his folks make their beds. Because it's like he thinks it's so important, it's so small, it seems almost laughable. And yet over and over people point to that. So that's kind of funny. But I think the deeper point is this idea that. And people often come back to me with this, is that there is no magic, one size fits all solution for a happy life or good habits. And then we really all have to think about, well, what is true for us. Because, like, sure, I could say to you, if it's important to you to exercise, you should get up first thing in the morning and do it before you go to work. But if you're a night person who can barely get out of bed in the morning, that's not going to work for you. Or I could say to you, to be happy, it's really important to have a lot of travel. Travel is really important for happiness. Well, some people don't really like that it isn't important to them to travel. Like, that's not like a universal aspect of human nature. And so just because something's fun for someone else doesn't mean it's going to be fun for you. Just because a habit works really well for some people doesn't mean it's going to work really well for you. Like a habit. For me that is amazing that I love is like, I eat no sugar and I basically don't eat any carbs, which. And most people would not want to do that. But for me, it's incredibly freeing and I love it. But if somebody keeps telling me, oh, you should indulge in moderation and have a cheat day, and like, well, that might work for you. That's not going to work for me because I'm a different kind of person. It's not that you're right and I'm wrong or that you're wrong and I'm right. It's just that we each have to say, well, what works for me? What kind of person am I? Because we really can only build a happy, healthy, productive life around our own nature, you know, and it's much easier to change our environment than it is to change ourselves. Because sometimes people are like, well, I need to get more willpower. I need to have More discipline. It's like, no, you don't. Like, just don't buy ice cream and then you won't eat it. You know, like, that's a much easier fix. Yeah, you keep texting while you're driving. Put your phone in the trunk.

Yes.

No willpower, my friend. It won't take you any willpower. Change your surroundings, not yourself.

I love that. I was like, I can't stop eating crackers and peanut butter. So, yeah, they're no longer in existence in my household. It's really big for me. So I love that. And you know what? I just, I continue to learn what makes me happy because I just try it on. I just try it for a while. Like when I first started writing, which for me was, you know, this whole new world, I did not write before this. And everyone was like, you know, you need to write first thing in the morning before you have any distractions. So here I am, not really an early morning person, waking up at 5:30 every day, like, going downstairs and writing for a year. I did it for a year, believe it or not. And finally I was like, I'm really unhappy. Like, I'm eating more during the day. I'm more tired. Like, I'm getting more frustrated with people. So for me, it's exercise first thing in the morning. Like, if I can do that, then I feel like I can do anything. And then I have these great hours between like 12 and 2 where I feel super, you know, alert and awake and inspired. And I had. But, you know, see what I had to do for a year, I had to try on someone else's idea for a year to be like, this just sucks.

So, no, I mean, that's the thing is so often people want to say there's one right way, and we're all attracted to that, you know, that, like, if only somebody could hand me the magic list of the seven habits of highly effective people, then my problem problems would be solved. But I mean, I remember we on the podcast, we interviewed Roseanne Cash, who of course is like this hugely successful musician, and she was saying how for years, she was like, oh, reading your book was so comforting to me because I always thought I was going about songwriting the wrong way because people would say, you gotta go to your desk and work regular hours and treat it like a job. And she goes, and I just wander around my day and if something occurs to me, I write it down. And my husband found some song lyrics on a scrap of paper on the ping pong table. And he was like, what is this. This is good. And she's like, oh, yeah, I wrote that last night. Completely not desk job kind of thing. And it's like, you're Roseanne Cash. If it works for you, how can anybody tell you you're doing it wrong? You know what I mean? It's like nobody can say to you, oh, Lori, you're writing your book the wrong way because you're writing it from noon to 3 instead of from 7 to 10am it's like, who cares? I have a writer friend, and she does her best writing from 11pm to 3am I'm like, that would kill me, kill me, kill me, kill me. I could not do that. But she. I mean, I get up at 6am so there isn't a right way or wrong way. And it's hard. I think it's hard also if we. If something works really well for us not to try to get other people to do it our way. So if we're a boss, we say to people, cluttered desk means cluttered mind. Because a cluttered desk means for us a cluttered mind. Or as a parent, I say to my daughter, oh, you know, you have to sit at a desk if you're gonna work. You can't just sit in your bed and work for so long. I tried to get my. My, My daughter to sit at a desk. So, like, how can you think if you're not at a desk? Because I can't think if I'm not at a desk, you know? But she. She. She could think just fine like sitting in a chair, you know? So, like, why was I badgering her about that? You know.

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I. So can I. I see myself in all of that too because I. Well, I have a fitness background. So of course, you know, everybody wants to know what one blanket fitness routine, advice, all of that stuff is. And through the years it's, you know, I watch it change for myself. It can sometimes change every three months. It can change from today to tomorrow. I could think a completely different thing. And you know, giving that advice to people, either they're asking because they want it or because something worked so well for me that I'm like, you guys.

Have to try this.

And then some people, it doesn't work. And I'm like, well, you're just not trying. And now it's really switching that and realizing, especially through all that I've tried through the years, it's just realizing that someone could be, I mean it could be the complete opposite and they could get just as good of results. So I love that. It's really freeing. And also that what makes one person happy is so not universal because, you know, my husband really loves to travel and I don't really love to travel. So I'm like, see, see right here it says not everybody loves this.

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's one of the, with this personality framework that I developed, which I call the four tendencies. It's whether a person is an upholder, a questioner, an obliger or a rebel. And one of the things that I found is that like, like take something like, like working out. People are really different in like. Because I was very intrigued as I was writing better than before. Why, why did some people go to the gym with no problem? And sometimes people would go for five years with no problem and then suddenly they would struggle what was changing. And some people never wanted to go to, you know, what was different in how the thing was set up. So that affected the way people successfully or not had a habit. And what I found is like for obligers, which is a very large group of people, having outer accountability is crucial. So just wanting to go to the gym, just saying like, oh, it's important to me to go to the gym, or I'm really motivated to go to the gym, it's not going to make a difference. They need to work out with a trainer or meet a friend or think of their duty as a role model or train for A race because they're raising money for charity for an organization that's really important for them. Or they need to run with their puppy, who's going to be so sad if she doesn't get to go for that run. They need that outer accountability. But then there are people, the rebels. Rebels are very small group. Rebels don't like accountability. They don't like people looking over their shoulder. If I say to them, hey, you should sign up for this 10am class, they're going to be like, like, I'm not going to go. How do I know what I'm going to feel like doing at 10am Just the fact that you're expecting me to go makes me not want to go. They have to feel free. They need to want choices. So they might do something like belong to a gym that had tons of classes and tons of choices. So they're like, I feel like working out. What do I feel like doing today? Well, today I feel like today I feel like doing Pilates. And then they just go in. And so it's a very different way of setting things up. And if you assume that the same thing will work for everyone, you might very well, like you said, the opposite might work for someone else. And so if you're totally committed to one system, might work very well for some people and not others. Now, sometimes that works, sometimes that's fine. And you're like, this will work for whomever it will work for. And then other people just will go find their own solution. But if you're really trying to fix it for every single person, like it's like your dad, and you're like, I don't care what works for most people. I need the answer that's going to work for my dad. Because my dad is not taking his blood pressure medication I do about him. Then you kind of need to know, well, what is the range of personalities and how can I identify how somebody fits in? Because I don't want the solution that is going to work for the most people. I want the solution that's going to work for a particular person. And that's very different. Different kind of problem.

So I love hearing that. And it's just paying attention too, because I. So I used to be such a. I used to be able to go to the gym by myself, like all of the time. I had no problem with it. But I can tell you looking back, I had to drag myself there always, no matter what. Even though I would do it and I would make sure I had a great workout, I was dragging Myself, I was also not looking forward to it. A lot of, you know, thinking certain ways about what I was about to go do. But now we moved to California about three years ago, and I had no idea how much I would love classes. So now I've just incorporated that, and that has changed everything for me. But before that, you could not have gotten me to go to a class. But I just find it so interesting how maybe it was me just becoming more open, or maybe it was me, you know, kind of responding to this environment of so many people out here doing classes, but just really watching how being open to new things could actually completely rock your world. So what if someone's totally closed off? Do you ever give them a piece of advice around, maybe trying to see it differently, and that could really improve their happiness or what they're doing, or do they just have to stumble upon it on their own?

I mean, you can't change other people. That's one of the sad facts about happiness, is the only person that we can change is ourselves. Now, it is true that if I change, my relationships change, and if I change often, other people will change as a consequence, but I can't make them change. And so if there's somebody that you really want to help to change, there's certain things you can do. Like, you can certainly model whatever the behavior is. Like, if you're telling your kids to get off their devices, you better get off your device. If you're telling your kids to read a book, you should show that you take pleasure in reading. It's not just something that is the spinach that children are supposed to do, but something that you like to do, and you can make things more convenient. So in Better than Before, I talk about the 21 strategies that can help people make or break their habits. Many of these are not universal. They work for some people and not for others. Or they work at some times in our lives, but not at all times. But one of the most universally useful strategies, and we all know this from everyday life, is convenience. If something is slightly more convenient, we are just much more likely to do it than something that's not convenient. And you can use this to help you with your good habits. Because, like, if you're thinking, should I go to the gym that's across the street from my office, or should I save a few bucks and go to the one that's two blocks away? Oh, no, no, if you can afford it, go to the one across the street. Because just that much easier is going to make it that much easier for you to get. They did this funny study of people looking at how much food people took from a salad bar. And when there were tongs there instead of serving spoons, people took less because they just could not be bothered to take more food if they had to use a tong. If you're trying to help someone else, maybe what you would do is say something like, well, I really want you to take your blood pressure medication. So I'm going to fill your prescriptions for you, and I'm going to get you one of those cases that says Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And I'm going to put a pill in every day and I'm going to put that case in front of the coffee pot in the morning. So you think. And I'm going to say to you, you can't have your coffee until you take your blood pressure medication. So it's just the easiest thing for you to do because. But I can't just keep saying to you, it's really important to take your medication. I know if it's important to you to be in good health, that's not going to make a difference for a lot of people. Some people need accountability. Some people need to have a lot of justification. There's a lot of different things. It's easier to change habits than people think, but you kind of have to know how to do it. And I think a lot of times we don't really know how to go about doing it the most strategic way. And then that's when people get really discouraged because they keep trying and failing, but they didn't really try in the right way for them. So they really shouldn't give up hope.

Love that. So true. Trying to change other people. Sometimes I just notice that when we let that go, or when I can let that go. Cause I've had many people, you know, especially coming from a background of not. Not a healthy family whatsoever. And of course you want to change those people first, and they're most resistant, right. But when I've been able to completely just let it go and realize that my happiness is not dependent upon them changing oftentimes just. It allows you to just really focus on what you're doing. And a lot of times your journey can inspire them if you are not in their face, you know, And I do believe there is kind of like that peak period where it can be really challenging, like where you almost are getting resistance around it. So did you get resistance from other people when maybe you were really focusing on your happiness journey and then did it turn around for you? At all.

I wouldn't say that I got resistance, but I didn't get support necessarily. And I think. And somebody actually just emailed me today and said, like, oh, I'm on like, chapter two of the happiness project. But what do you do if you can't get other people to play along? And I'm like, I never said anything about getting other people to play along. I've never gotten anybody to play along. This is not a play along. Maybe it is. I've heard of husbands and wives doing happiness projects together or whole families doing it. And I think that would be amazing and great. That's not the kind of husband I have. He is not interested in that. And like, he's not interested in, like, having long conversations. You know, like, there's this whole thing that many people say, like, oh, let's go around the dining room table and say, like, what are three things that we're grateful for today? My husband would not. I would not be interested in doing that, I have to admit, even as a happiness expert. And my husband would not be interested in doing that. Like, that's not going to fly. So fine, you know, and so I think that you don't. I think. And this comes up with habits a lot. Because sometimes when you're changing a habit for the better, other people, like, people sometimes expect that other people will be really supportive. And oftentimes people are supportive, but sometimes they're like, they don't care. They're like, whatever, knock yourself out. And sometimes they're actually obstructive because sometimes when you change a habit, it makes people feel guilty about what they're doing. They may feel judged, they may feel envious, like you're making a positive change and they're not. And so then that, like, gives them all kinds of negative emotions. Their feelings can be hurt. Like, so they may not, or they might just be inconvenient. It's like, oh, yeah, well, you want to get up and go to this 10am yoga class on Saturday. That means I have to watch the kids and I don't feel like doing that. It's more fun for me if I sleep late and you stay home with the kids. So I would really prefer that you not go to the gym. Okay, well, like, that's just a conflict that you have to manage. And so I think that. And one of the things I talk a lot about in Better than Before is how do you handle a situation where other people are not necessarily being helpful? How do you think about it and how do you approach it? So that you really can make the ha. You can have the habits that are going to work for you given your circumstances. Now I remember I got this funny email though from somebody who's like, I feel like the important thing for my happiness is that I would go away for a three week meditation retreat. And I think that's what I need to do. But my husband feels like he doesn't want me to leave him alone with the three kids. And I was like, I can see both people's perspectives there, I gotta say. Three weeks with your three little kids, like, that's a lot to ask, you know what I mean? Yeah. So, you know, it's not like you can just willfully ignore other people and what, and their lives and their concerns. So it's, it all has to be sort of taken into consideration. But I think because sometimes people do resist it or, you know, for their own reasons, they don't, they don't particularly want to be helpful or they're just not interested, you know.

Awesome. So someone like you who's been asked a bazillion questions, especially about happiness, is there a question that you've never been asked before?

Well, I don't know.

Is it that question? Was that it?

I don't know.

Is there something that you wish more people would ask or that's associated with what you do or what you love? But people are missing the point on.

Let me think about that for a second.

I know. See, this is what happened when I don't send the questions beforehand.

I feel like there's something right on the tip of my tongue that somebody, when I was like, well, one thing that people get wrong a lot. I mean, people, people will often see what they expect to see instead of seeing what I actually say. So, like, people are like, oh, you agree that money doesn't matter for happiness? And I'm like, no, I didn't say that. I think that money matters a lot for happiness. Happiness where people will say, well, you say that everyone should be moderate. And I'm like, oh my gosh. I don't say everybody should be moderate. I think like some people really should not be moderate. And I'm one of them. I can't be moderate. And so, but it's interesting because it's like, it's like in a way though, that's useful for them perhaps, and that they are, they have their own view of happiness that, that, that, that they're taking through the world. And maybe that view is right for them. Like, maybe it's. I have to live up to my own thing of like. Like that there's no right way or wrong way and say, well, there's a lot of different ways to think about a happy life. And like, I can't just cling so tightly to my view and be like, no, you're wrong. Of course I could say you're wrong about what I say because I say what I say, but you can have your belief. And so that's, so that's interesting. It's just always surprising to me when I'm sort of like characterized in ways. I'm like, no, I don't think I said that.

I could see that a lot because it's easy to take what we're reading and just translate it especially. It's really funny because I was, you know, I've been reading your book and it's easy for me to like, lean over to my husband and be like, see, see this? Because I can translate it into something that will work for me.

Right, right. But that's, but that's like the nicest thing somebody said to me about the Happiness Project book was a friend of mine said, I've never read a book that felt like it was more about me. And I was like that. That's exactly what it is. Because my Happiness Project, it's only interesting in terms of being an illustration or kind of like thought provoking for you to do your own Happiness Project because obviously that's what will make a difference for you. And so you might have a whole chapter in your Happiness Project or a whole month devoted to something like music. Music isn't important for my Happiness Project. It might be crucial for your Happiness Project. And so you're saying, oh, she's writing a lot about reading, but reading is important to me. Biking is important to me. But you sort of get the point. Yeah. And so, yeah, so I think a lot of it is that we bring our own ideas to it, which is good. Which is good. I think the problem for most people is they, like, people often say, like, well, don't you think that if people think about happiness too much, they'll kind of get in their own way? They'll trip over their own feet and their desire to be happy will make them unhappy. And I'm like, I don't think that's a big problem. I don't personally see that as an issue in the world. I think a much bigger issue is that people never stop to think about it. They're so busy managing their day to day. And like, I was, you know, just caught up in like my to do lists and thinking about my petty grievances and my minor grudges. And I just never stepped back to think about like what did, what would I do to be happier? So I think that inattention is a much bigger issue for most people than kind of, you know, being too focused on it.

So I, that was, that, that was a really big thing for me is just, just all of a sudden recognizing. I'm trying to think when this was, was the la, like the last couple years I lived in Minneapolis. So maybe five or six years ago, just all of a sudden realizing I wasn't doing anything that was fun for me or that was actually, you know, because fun is huge for me. If I was going to do happiness project, that would absolutely fun would be a massive part of it. Which for a while I just cut it completely out because I thought you couldn't have fun and be really successful, like really going for your business dreams and all those things. So all of a sudden one day I was like, wow, I am just having zero fun with any of this. So for me it was like all at once I feel like I woke up to the fact that I was so serious and not allowing myself to go towards the things that I was happy doing. But for you now you're so highly self aware as well. And so, you know, maybe so many people are now that this has come to their attention. But what are some things that go off in your life or red flags where you're like, whoa, I need to incorporate another something that's going to make me happy. What are the feelings? What are the thoughts around it?

I have spent so much time, I mean I really like. It's all I think about all day long. So I don't think there's much for me that is not part of my comprehensive system.

But I love that because you said you spend so much time thinking about it, so you've become so aware because it's such a part of your life that that really can happen for anyone that you, you probably do a daily scan or an hourly scan because it's just what you're doing, you know, what am I thinking? What am I feeling? What's happening in my life? So.

Well, I have to say it's like nice work if you can get it because like I went on, I went like, I'm obsessed with, with the sense of smell and I have a friend who's like loves perfume as much as I do. So we decided we were going to take an afternoon, play hooky and go to this, like, weird perfume gallery in Brooklyn. And so we're going there, and I look over at her and I'm like, you know, for me, this is a billable hour. Meaning for me, this is a work. This is part of my work day. And she's just like, how do you score this? You know, I'm like, I know. What can I say? So, I mean, I think, you know, I. I do it to a degree that most people do not. But of course, then I. But then I have all the work of writing it and presenting it and researching it and, you know, trying to always be. Push it. Be pushing it. Yeah.

But I still feel that I. I.

Feel for Sandra Day o', Connor. I spent a lot more time thinking about Erisa and less time thinking about happiness. Not sure everyone it's practical to do it, but I do that at that level so other people don't have to. I just give you the. I just give you. Give you the part you need to move forward.

Cliff Notes. I love it. I love that. I feel really fortunate, too, because I get to have conversations about it, and I do a lot of work around it, too. So I'm constantly like, oh, how could this be taught? Oh, how can I apply this to my life? And it's really, really great. And I love that you actually said smell, because I love anything that engages my senses, because obviously, the more senses you can engage, the more present you get, the more present you get.

The.

The happier I tend to be and just in the moment, and the less I live in the past and the less I live in the future. So I love that just smelling things just brings you straight to the present. So.

So awesome.

I'll have to do that.

In my book, Happier at Home. I have this whole big thing about smell. I'm really obsessed with smell.

Oh, awesome. I'll have to read that. So how do you and I know that you just kind of said this? Well, parts of it. But how do you get into inspiration? Do you ever hit a point where you wake up and you're like, wow, I do this every day. I kind of need to change up my environment so I can get, you know, new thoughts, new things into my life.

You know, for me, it always comes through reading. That's really, like, the big thing for me. And so if I do, if I feel, like, tapped out or really, you know, low energy, I'll take some time and just read for fun. Like, maybe I'll reread something that I love or I'll go to the Library. I live a block from a library where I often will go to write, or I just was there today checking out books, and I find that really energizing. And then the thing about it is it's like, it's a very soothing activity for me. Like, it's something I love, but then it's also. Also gives me ideas. So often it kind of, you know, it's like the bicycle starting the bicycle at the top of the hill. Like, it'll give me an idea and that'll set me off. Like, I'll be. I'll think, well, I have nothing to say for my bl today. What am I going to write in my blog? But then if I read for an hour, then I'll think, oh, well, there was this sort of interesting point about the passage of time and that makes me think of something. And all of a sudden I have an idea and now I have something to say. As we talked about when you were trying to write, the most important thing is to have something to say. Now I have something to say. And so for me, it always comes back to reading. So I do a lot of things aimed at reading. Like on my site under Resources, I have this thing about reading better than before, like, how to up your reading game. Because a lot of adults, I was surprised by how many people, like, want to read more, read better. And that's a habit that you can work on, like, anything. And so, like, I keep library lists. I go to the library, I go to bookstores. I stop reading a book when I don't like it. That was a big change for me. I always felt like a real reader finishes a book they start. No, if you finish a book you don't like, you have more time to read the things you do like. And, you know, I read a lot of stuff that is like, you know, on the one hand, I read very sophisticated literature, but. And I used to feel kind of embarrassed about what I read. That was not. Like, I love children's literature. And now I've just decided I just. I just read whatever I feel like. Yeah. So that. That's what works for me. Oh, I love it.

Two questions. So do you have a list of your favorite books? Because I must. I always try to ask my favorite, you know, some of my most inspirational people what their favorite books are.

Yeah. Well, I have a book club, so every month I recommend one book that's about happiness or good habits or human nature. One outstanding work of children's literature, because I love children's literature. And then one eccentric Pick. Which is where I pick a book where I'm like, I love this book, but I'm not saying that it's for everyone, because I like a lot of weird stuff. So, like, don't necessarily take my word for it. So I have, like, you know, gobs and gobs and gobs of lists of my favorite books.

Yeah, that's on your site.

Mm.

Okay. Good going there. All right, so I know that you love to talk and analyze, and you get ideas from other ideas and ideas from books, and that's kind of how I work too. It's just. I get. I can read an idea, and I basically can play off of that idea. And it, you know, it really brings me to a different place and a different perspective. So I also love groups and masterminding and talking with people and analyzing. And in your book, you had talked about how your husband maybe isn't that person for you. And I absolutely loved hearing that, because I felt like. I feel like, culturally, like, we. We can marry this person, or we have this best friend, and we expect them to be everyone for us. And I think the most freeing idea was, no, create this tribe over here or this group over here where you do this other, you know, soul part of you, and then this person can be more free to love you in the way that they're meant to or not meant to, but the way that they do best. So do you do a lot of masterminding or have a lot of different groups and tribes to do that with?

I mean, I wouldn't use that. I don't use that language. I work by myself a lot, and so I definitely do love to join groups because it's a way for me to engage with people. And also, like, I don't have colleagues, so it's good for me to have. So I have, like, a writers group where it's like. It's a bunch of nonfiction writers where we get together and talk about. We don't, like, workshop or something, but we talk about issues related to writing. I'm in another group that's for people who are trying to use social media. Writers using social media, trying to understand, like, how to use social media to connect with readers. I love going to conferences. I was just talking to somebody who, like, hates going to conferences because I'm going to this podcast conference, and I was like, I love a conference. I like a conference in a big, soulless corporate hotel. I love that. I don't know why, but I'm like, just sign me up. So, like, I like that kind of thing. But, like, I've never had a mentor. I think that's a big mistake people make, is they're like, they're waiting for a mentor. And I'm like, you don't have to wait for a mentor because, like, maybe you won't have a mentor. You don't need to have a mentor. And that's really like allowing someone else, some other imaginary person to decide, like your starting point. But here's something I would observe, and this goes back to my personality frameworks. Okay, if you're a person, there's a sizable group of people. This is a large. Of the four tendencies, this is the largest tendency of leisure. They really need outer accountability in order to meet inner expectations. So if they want to write a novel in their free time, if they want to start their own business, you know, if they want to exercise, if they want to get a massage, they need outer accountability for that. And if you feel like. And the way I identified this group was when a friend of mine said, said, I don't understand why I can't exercise. Because when I was in high school, I was on the track team and I never missed track practice, so why can't I go running now? So if you feel a strong drive to join with a group of people, that is probably a good idea, because obligers often intuitively know that they need the supervision and the accountability of a group or of another person or of a situation in order to follow through. And so if you feel that urge, you should really try to get there. And you can form a group. And there's a starter kit on my site for people starting better than before groups. You don't all have to be working for the same thing. It's just the idea that you're all going to hold each other accountable for whatever your individual aim is. And that is super important. Or maybe you need a trainer, or maybe you need to take a class where the teacher is going to notice if you don't show up. But often, and here's where the four tendencies kind of come into play, the other tendencies, upholders, questioners and rebels, don't need accountability in the same way. Sometimes it's useful for them, but they don't really need it in the same way. And they will often try to dissuade obligers from getting. From getting accountability or they won't help. So maybe you're a wife and you're saying to your husband, won't. Every day, like, when I come home, can you just say to me, hey, did you go to the gym today. And the husband says, why should I do that? If you want to go to the gym, go to the gym. Like, I don't. Like, whatever. If it's important to you, go. I don't. I don't want to be involved. Like, I don't want to have to keep bringing it up. Right. Or like, Or a wife says to the husband, the husband says, you know, can you. Can you ask me every day, like, if I ate out for lunch or if I brought lunch for home? Just. Just ask me. And the wife is like, I don't want to be nagging you. I'm not your mom. I don't want to pester you. You eat, you do what you want. So there. So. But somebody's saying, I want you to hold me accountable. And somebody else is saying, well, I don't want that job. Okay, maybe you don't want that job. But then how do you. How does somebody else else fill that role? Because for some people, having that outer accountability is very important. And whenever people start talking about how they need a group or they need a coach or they need a trainer, that starts making me think, okay, this is an obliger. So it's very important to make sure that that function is filled because otherwise that obliger will struggle to meet an inner expectation. They need supervision. They need deadlines. They need accountability to something outside themselves, themselves. But not everybody needs that. And so sometimes we mess with their heads.

It's so interesting because I can clearly see points in my life where I've. I've really felt like I needed it, but then other points where I almost push so hard against it because maybe I've gone to a big seminar and they try to match you up in a mastermind group. And I'm like, no, no way. Like, I can't do this right now. So it's really for me to. It's funny, I feel like I'm in between all those personalities, but, you know, I'm going to.

Now.

That's awesome.

Happier cast.com quiz.

Okay, one more time. Say it.

It's happiercast.com quiz. It'll take you to the quiz and it will spit out your. Your. Your tendency.

All right, you guys, we're putting that in show notes, so I can't wait to hear what everyone is.

There's a deep affinity between obligers and rebels. So if you. That they. They will sometimes Obliger, sometimes they'll meet me. Meet expectations. And then suddenly they snap and they're like, no more I'm putting my foot down. This I won't do. So, like, you've been, you've been heaping extra work on me for two months. Well, guess what? Now I'm not going to answer your emails for three weeks. Interesting. And telling me, you know, you've been badgering me. I'm just going to be late for work for a month or I'm just going to quit on you. I'm just going to walk in and you're dead to me. Or, you know, blow up a relationship. You know, you've been my friend, but you're so needy and you just keep taking and taking and taking and instead of like, let's have a conflict, it's like, you know what? This is over. So that can be a very, it can be a very, a very kind of destructive pattern that sometimes can fall into do if they feel like too many expectations are placed in them.

Oh, I love it. See it just anything. I'm so, I so love self awareness because it's, it's an actionable place, right? Once you realize it, you can finally start taking action to improve your life. So anything like that, I'm obsessed with. So, Gretchen, thank you so much for coming on today. I really, really appreciate your time.

It's so fun to talk to you. I feel like we talk all day long.

I was just thinking that I'm like, I literally had to watch the clock because I was like, I could keep this woman on for hours. So anything that you want to share before we go?

Well, I love to hear from listeners and readers and I'm totally like out there on the Internet and Twitter and Facebook and all that. So I love to hear people's own experiences, their insights, their recommendations, their challenges when it comes to happiness and good habits. So if people are intrigued, I hope that they are interested in the stuff that I've written and I would love to hear from them about their own experiences.

I love that. So where can we find you? Follow you? Where do you hang out the most on social media?

Well, I have a website, GretchenRubin.com and just about every day I write about my adventures and happiness and good habits. And there's a lot of resources there, like discussion guides and starter kits and like one pagers about how to work better than before and eat better than before and stuff like that. I also am on Twitter and Facebook under Gretchen Rubin. I have my podcast Happier with Gretchen Rubin, which is tons of fun. I do it with my sister who's. I call her my sister the sage because she's so wise and hilarious. And then I'm also on, you know, Instagram and YouTube and I. I got stuff everywhere, so I'm very easy. I'm insanely easy to reach, which is good because I like to hear from people. So I try to try to be very available.

I love it. Thank you so much. And you guys, if you loved this episode as much as I did, make sure you share it, shout it out, tweet it, and like she just said, make sure that you tag her, let her know how much you loved it, what you loved, and what you got out of it. So until next time, earn your happy. Bye, everyone. Thank you guys so much for spending this time with me on the earn your happy podcast. I am so glad that you stopped by. If you could take one second to share this episode with someone you think would love it, that would be absolutely amazing and we would be forever grateful. Also, please leave us a review. If you feel so moved by going to itunes and leaving us an honest thought, an honest comment, tell us what you think, tell us what you want to hear. More of it would really help us out out on our journey to helping thousands and thousands of people. Until then, don't forget to earn your happy. Thanks again, guys. Bye.

Bye.