676. Big Ideas from a Big Online Business Owner - with Brian Smith

And so we've got this amazing, like, pure product, but the way we talk about it, we just created a platform to have as much fun as we possibly could with it.

Welcome to the earn your happy podcast. I'm Lori Harder, founder of The Bliss Project, 3 Time Fitness World champion, fitness expert and cover model turned self love junkie, lifestyle entrepreneur and author. Each week I'll bring you a guest or a thought that will help you.

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Here we go.

Foreign.

Welcome back to the show. I'm telling you, if you have a big idea, you're a big dreamer. Maybe you have a hobby, something that you love, you can turn it into a business. And today's podcast is great for people who are really looking at how they can turn their passion into something much bigger. Brian Smith is an advanced sommelier. He is a Wink SOMA COO and co founder. Brian is driven by a passion to share great wine with as many people as possible. I feel like him and I have the same passion. The role of Wink co founder and COO furthers his mission to create and connect great products with today's consumer. Brian combines his years of experience as a SO sommelier, winemaker and brand builder to oversee the world's most innovative and culturally relevant wine program. A firm believer in creative collaboration, he's led Wink to partner with charity, New York Times bestselling author Atticus and designer Jonathan Simkai. Brian and his team of winemakers carefully craft more than 100 wines a year, from grape to glass. Prior to Wink, Brian founded successful finance and fashion startups. His previous wine experience includes creating the wine program for the tech enabled CLO Wine in New York and founding the millennial cult brand Jolie Filet Rose. You guys listen to this show. If you want to scale whatever it is that you are doing, listen in to how creative he's gotten with something that maybe did not have a very creative background. Let's go.

Brian, I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Yeah, you are doing some really cool stuff. I would love for you to give a little bit of background before we dive into just like all of the other amazing topics we were chatting about earlier, but if you could give a little bit of background into what you're doing right now and also what you're most excited about right now.

Cool, that's awesome. Right now I'm sitting in my garage working with.

It's a really cool looking garage, by the way.

I'm really excited to get out of my garage, as many of us are. But jokes aside, I'm really lucky I get to do something that I absolutely love. I fell in love with wine a long time ago. Never. I didn't grow up in a wine drinking family. I was a pro snowboarder, so I was more on the sort of Pabst Blue ribbon train than wine, but ultimately was exposed to the category and absolutely fell in love with it. And many years later, what I do today, I'm co founder and president at Wink Wines where we are a direct consumer winery. We create brands and connect with consumers online and offline as well. Some of our notable brands are Summer Water and a new one that we just launched that's really exciting called Wonderful Wine Company. So I get to be an evangelist for something that I personally enjoy that I love the creativity and craft that goes into. And we're constantly innovating and figuring out how we just reach more people with this message.

Oh my gosh. So something you don't know. I'm extra interested in this conversation right now because I'm starting a wine based seltzer and just like, yeah, literally, I'm so excited. And by the way, I've drank plenty of summer water and it's, it's awesome. And I think it's so cool how number one, I was a snowboarder as well and drank plenty of Pabst Blue Ribbon. So this is, this is great. All right, we could talk about that, a evolution of ourselves and our palette. But with that said, I really like to know like that, that point in your life of how this even happened. Like, how did this become an option for you? Because, you know, I think for a lot of entrepreneurs. So a lot of our audience is like entrepreneurs or dreamers or people who want to like get that spark of like, how do I reach the tipping point of knowing this dream is the dream? So I love to talk about that place where you were like, you know what? This is it. Like, I'm going to follow this and I'm going to go all in. What did that look like for you?

Yeah, so it was pretty interesting. I left college and just went to snowboard more I competed in college. And after college, I did a season in Utah, and then I made my way to Jackson Hole, Wyoming. So I was kind of living in Jackson. Ski bum lifestyle, snowboarding every single day. Not even really working for a while, just kind of making it happen. And I ended up, I had to get a job. Um, you know, my snowboarding sponsorships were kind of meager and kind of dried up. And I was doing more backcountry riding, and I got a job in a wine shop. And I had no idea, like, anything about wine. There was a liquor store in downtown, and people would come in and ask me, you know, what's the difference between a. Should I get this cabernet or this Cabernet? And one's like $50 and one's like $12. I had no clue. I didn't even know what cabernet was. And it was kind of interesting because it was actually out of that, like, inability to serve the customer and insecurity around the product. Then I started reading about it, tasting. And as soon as I had this experience of where you could read about the history or a place or the rich culture, where it is on the hillside, how close it is to the river, what grape it is, what time of year, all of these things that are sort of factual and inputs that could help inform how you enjoy something on a sensory perspective. So it's this combination of this, like, incredible data and diversity, rich cultural history mixed with a sensory experience and being able to combine. When I combine those two, I was like, this is so cool. I want to learn about this. And not only do I want to learn about this, but I want to tell every single person I know about this. And I think I was lucky because they were all snowboarders, were all my friends. So I got to evangelize the category with them, put wine in their glass, get them excited about it. And that's when I was like, I want to be. I'm just going to be a sommelier. Like, I want to go be a sommelier. Oh, my God.

Amazing.

I'm just going to focus on this now. And you can imagine, like, as a snowboarder, you can imagine living in a mountain town. Like, you know, it's kind of a dirt bag.

Yeah.

A really good snowboarder. Had a really great life. Like, not afraid to couch surf or anything like that.

Yep.

And going from that and being, like, going back to that network and those friends and being like, you know what? I'm. I'm not snowboarding and I'm not going out partying. Because I'm studying the sub. Sub regions and Appalachians of Burgundy.

Yeah.

And I want to understand, like, I want to understand this at a really deep level. My friends were like, what has happened?

Yeah.

What happened to you?

Did some of them, like, get interested along with you?

Yeah, it's kind of amazing, actually. So I was one of the first. I got really fired up on it, and then I started to get some of my friends into it that were in the restaurant business there. And as it turned out, there was actually this crop of, like, really talented food and wine people that came out of Jackson Hole. We had one sommelier who became sort of our mentor who moved to town. Town. There are Chris Pittenger, who's an amazing winemaker at Gros Vent. He has his own wine label. Emrick Lane. Jason Barakowski is a chef in Oregon at this organic Hiu wine farm, which is really famous. There's about eight people that have kind of sprung out as restaurateurs. Four of them are winemakers and a couple chefs. So it actually created in this tiny mountain town, just this really creative community of people that are now really respected and well established in the space. Pretty bizarre.

It's bizarre. And it also is just, like, so holds up with that theory of, like, you know, kind of who you're hanging around, and if you become elevated and a couple other people catch on, it's just like, that's why you'll see these groups of friends and people, like, all running together who are really successful because it just. It kind of spurs that conversation. It all winds up, you know, no pun intended. I said wined, not wines, but I like wines better.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's so cool.

It's so true. It's kind of like you start to. I was talking about this with my business partner about something else. I mean, we really live in our businesses, right? Like, he and I, that's all we talk about all the time. You know, we're talking about macroeconomic things, but it all comes back to this. We're just living in our business, and it pushes sort of creativity and conversation and progresses people at a rate when they're kind of living in this passion or this thing that's really tough to find sort of on your own. I think that's what happened in Jackson Hole. All of our time together were creative conversations around subjects that we were just super excited about that actually became really great careers for everyone.

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Yeah, and it doesn't surprise me like a group of, you know, snowboarders either, because they as much of, you know, dirt bags that they all were. And we all were. Yeah, we know what we're saying. Like, we're just kind of. I trust me, there isn't a better word for. For a couple of years of my life. But it definitely. They were also, also, like, so creative. Like, because it was an outlet. Right. So for a lot of, like, creative frustration is what I. What I found for a lot of them, like, artists, musicians, like, all of. So that does not surprise me at all, like, when you can channel that into something that you enjoy. And also, I love, like, I think wine is. It's so. It's just so much fun because it is like, the. When I talk to a lot of people about falling in love with wine, it's like, such a visceral moment. Like, my husband and I, whatever bottle we're opening, we always ask, like, we pick a memory from that year of whatever was going on, and we always say, where were we and what were we doing? And then we think about the winemakers and who like what they were doing, and it creates this, like, really, it's just such. It makes drinking wine into an experience. And it sounds like you're obsessed with creating experiences for people as well.

Yeah, absolutely. That is a big part of it. And I did that. So I had a big wine collection when I lived in Jackson, and when I moved out of there to go be a sommelier, I sold most of it. And I gave one bottle to a friend who let me stay in his house on his couch for, like, two weeks before I left. And I wrote don't drink until 15 years later and gave it to him. And he had no idea what it was. We kind of lost touch, and he got my number and sent me a text. Years later, he had waited and then actually had it with his now wife and was like, I just drank it. I was thinking about you and reached out. So pretty amazing that just a bottle of wine can do that. But, yeah, I mean, I think now more than ever, creating experiences are. I mean, we're starving for them. Right. Like in this, in this current time. And I think wine just has historical significance and efficacy for creating experiences. Right. It's a shared experience. So you open the bottle, you share it with people. You typically sit across from people. You're engaged, you're kind of trying to take time out. And it can really, it can be its own experience or it can be a great addition to a moment in time where you're like kind of stopping and pausing and just like living a little bit.

Yeah, I love that. It's a time capsule for sure. Like, it just locks that it can really lock in memories, which is so cool. So what would be an idea? Like if you, if every bottle of wine you knew could send out an experience to people? Like, what would that, what would that experience be for people when you are knowing that they're getting a bottle of wine? Like, what's the perfect experience?

The perfect experience I'm going to have. I'll try and articulate this succinctly. I'm sure you can tell that the way I speak sort of rambles on a bit.

Oh, I make no sense. So welcome to the show. So I will follow what you're saying, though.

I think right now it's just like that moment of pause and self care. Right. There's something selfish about it, but there's something also about sharing that moment, I think, like, I like the social aspect of wine. I mean, when I sit down with people and have a great meal and I pour them something special, I'm giving them something and inviting to them something. But I also like the feeling of having my own sip and having it sort of warm my chest and my soul and sort of open up conversation. So I think it's, yeah. Taking a moment to pause selfishly, but also like, I wish it could deliver more wonderful social moments where we aren't distracted and we're just enjoying each other.

Oh, that's so cool. And it really is like a time to be able to set intentions, which is cool. And you can, you know, I think that when a bottle is well thought out, it can deliver that too. It's funny. Like, you look in your fridge, if you get a really good bottle of wine that you're chilling or something, it's like, oh, that's gonna be a good time. Like, you know, that's. You're gonna have fun. Where if I look at my, you know, my steak or my T bone, I'm never like, oh, that's gonna be a great time with everyone. But, you know, but like it just represents like, you know how you're gonna feel and you know you're gonna like stop and enjoy, which is just so cool. So you're doing, you started your company, which I would love for you just to share, you have another branch that you're doing as well off of your company. So if you could share a little bit about the two different things that you're working in.

Yes, sure. So you know the core company or the parent company is called Wink. You can go to wink.com and you can find some really amazing wines from around the world, all direct from source. And we do a cute little quiz that tells us about your palate. And then we start to make recommendations based on those answers and then based on how you engage with the wines, first ratings and ordering, and you name it. So it's a pretty cool universe. The way we think about wink.com is it's like if you could do a one page wine list from around the world, what would it look like? And that's what we're kind of shooting for. So you can try all different varietals and really explore all of our brands. And all of our products are available there. We also sell a smaller set of projects that we started online with our online customers. They rated them, loved them, enjoyed them. They kind of became brands in a virtual world or in our community before taking them out and selling them into restaurants and retailers. So that would be Summer Water is a great example of that and Folly of the Beast. And we have a low sulfur wine called Cherries and Rainbows, which is really cool. So those are sold kind of in restaurants, retailers, on a national basis. And then we just launched a really exciting new project, really based on what we were seeing in the market. Some personal preferences for things that we enjoy, and then feedback from our community of, of customers. And that's called Wonderful Wine Company. And so we've been working on this for a couple of years. I think organic products, natural products, natural wines are certainly an exciting and emerging trend in our space. And I think that if you look at other consumer categories, even cosmetics, I mean, food, of course, people really care about it, but cosmetics, other categories, you just haven't seen the same sort of value proposition and focus and dedication in wine that you have in these other categories. And part of that is just the consumer understanding of the wine category. Now, wine's a natural product, certainly, but a lot of the wines that you find in stores are sort of mass produced and manipulated in ways that the consumers don't necessarily know. So Wonderful. Wineco kind of cuts against that with full transparency and a focus on everything we can do to make this as environmentally sound and delicious as possible.

Yeah, I love it. It's so funny, you know, because I lived in California for a long time, as of up until two weeks ago, but I would have these friends who were just like, you know, they would only wear, like, natural clothing, and they would only eat natural food. And then all of a sudden, like, when they were drinking, they would drink whatever the hell was available, you know, whatever was in front of them. And I was always like, that seems funny. Like, they don't care at all about what they're drinking, which is fine. I totally have. Like, I'm a walking paradox as well. But I always thought, like, man, there's. I don't know if there's a lot out there that when I go to the liquor store, it's, like, really clear that there's, you know, better options, which is so cool that you guys are doing that and you're doing it a really fun way. Like, I love the branding. I love, like, the messaging around it. It's super, super fun. Totally speaks to me. And I know that you said before this, you're like, let's talk about anything hippie. And I was like, wow, you're. You embody, Embody. So it's so much fun. It's like, it feels like fully what I'm loving is it. It truly feels like a brand. Like, you know, I look at the shelves a lot, and it's like, there's not necessarily a story attached to. Even though I think wine tells its own story, it's kind of like, also, like, feeling a personality within that wine, which is so much fun. So what made you kind of decide to go the route that you went where it felt like a lot of personality within the company? Within, like, on the bottle, essentially.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, we wanted to start with organic products. You know, great quality, low intervention, no additives or anything like that. So the product was really important. And then as we thought about, like, you know, how do we. How do we tell it? We've got great product. How do we tell, like, a story that's kind of interesting and fun for people that we can really, like, lean into? We came up with this idea of wellness without deprivation, Right? So it's, you know, everybody has their own kind of version of wellness. And, you know, at the end of the day, it's wine. So, I mean, you're drinking an alcoholic beverage, so some people don't drink because of their wellness program, others feel they need to drink a lot because.

Because of their wellness program.

Varying degrees, but it, but it's wine. And so, you know, one thing about wellness is that it's. It's just not. It's not rigid. And I think this is a change that has occurred in the last five years even. There are a lot of different things that mean wellness to a lot of different people. And you kind of pull in different things that you find works for you. It doesn't have to be this like, extremely rigid set of sort of inputs for your body or your life. And so that's how we approached it. And we were like, well, if it's, if it's wellness without deprivation, then it's really like, it's a wholesome sort of better for you selection that's optimistic on life, right? Because it's still wine, you're still celebrating, you're still sharing those moments. And we were like, so let's just go super optimistic and wonderful. So it's really fun because it's so non traditional. Like in our ads and our social channels, it's like our tasting notes are like, tastes like dolphin rides. And like scoring, you know, scoring and being an astronaut. And I just murdered that. But it's right here. Tastes like dolphin rides and being promoted to head astronaut.

Oh, my God.

Tastes like magic hour. Being right and beating the high score.

Oh, that tastes good.

So we've got like this stealthy, doesn't it? That sounds great.

Yeah, like, give me some of that.

And so we've got this amazing, like, pure product. But the way we talk about it, we just created a platform to have as much fun as we possibly could with it.

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And so I think getting to that place though in your career or like, honestly it's getting to that place, place within yourself, you know, I think a lot of people would love more freedom in what they do or in their business. Was there a moment when you were just like, you know, maybe looking at the old model or deciding to be a bit disruptive that you were just like, you know, I need to make sure that I'm having fun because this is when I'm at my best. Or what was like that moment of just like, I'm gonna do what feels good. Like what was. What were you weighing it against? Like a previous experience. And what made you decide to just go completely opposite of what wine people would essentially like to describe a wine as? You know what I'm saying? Like what you did?

Yeah, yeah, for sure it was. I mean I'm kind of, I don't know if you've ever done an enneagram.

Yeah, love that.

I'm like a seven, eight.

Okay.

So I'm like, I'm an enthusiast, so I focus on One thing and then I just like, yep, I'll discover something that captures my attention and I can't help myself. But. But I think it was. So I kind of like I left. Left snowboarding for wine. Then I did wine for a while and I left for finance, which was pretty dramatic. Pretty dramatic. Yeah. I went and worked in finance, commodity trading for a number of years. And actually my first business was a financial services business, a brokerage. And then I came back to wine. And when I came back to wine, I was like, I want to do a cool hospitality project, but I also want to start making wine. So I started making wine in Argentina and that was the kind of. Kind of the point where I found something not only in terms of turning people onto wine, but I love branding. Like, I love like what makes. How do you create like more perceived value in terms of what's in the glass? It can be a great product, but like, it can be even better if people respond to the messaging. What makes people pick something up off the shelf and then really enjoy something and like come back to it? And so it was really. When I was launching my first brand and making wine in Argentina, I decided to do it in a one liter bottle. So it was like a bigger. A bigger bottle and non traditional bottle size. And you would think a sommelier would make really expensive wine and made really inexpensive wine that was high quality. The label looked completely different. It was like a wallpaper design that was like, you know, pretty, pretty progressive. And I just did everything differently. And I think that was a function of being in the snowboarding industry and being a part of like a tribe there where there was such a. There was so much like currency around visual identities and branding and like, who rode for what and like, you know, a lot. I translated a lot of those things that I really liked into a category that I was also passionate about. And it was different at first and I had to fight to make it succeed. Like, literally. I think my first wholesale meeting I went into to sell my brand, they were like, this bot. What do you think this bottle is going to actually fit on the shelf? Nobody sells this size bottle. And I was like, oh my God, did I just put all everything into something that doesn't even fit on a shelf?

Yeah, totally.

But I had to fight through. I believed in it. I had to fight through it. It's how I viewed the world. And I thought I could be disruptive. And ultimately it was hard work, but I found that success and that taking that risk and finding that success gives you the Confidence to continue to be creative and push. And I think in business in general today, you have to constantly be reassessing the information that you have with your business, the information that you have from your consumers, the information that's out in the world. And you have to move really quickly and be as creative as possible.

Yeah, so you're, you're, you're bringing wine to people in a different way than wine has normally been brought to people. And I know it's, it's becoming more and more popular, especially with what's going on in the environment of the world with COVID and everything, but direct to bringing wine, direct to consumer, to people. So, you know, kind of creating this like, kind of, I mean, correct me with how to say it, but like a really modern like membership version of a wine club. What, so what made you want to do it that way? Are you guys in stores? Like what made you decide that this is the way you were going to do it?

Yeah, so I mean I had been building my own brand through traditional channels, selling into stores, standing in stores, pouring wine for people, telling my story in a one on one way. And it was very effective, it was rewarding for me. And I was selling, you know, building a brand and selling my wine. And when I met my partner, he came from sort of a payments background, hospitality background as well, real estate development and then payments. But in payments he really understood the lifetime value of a customer and sort of e commerce metrics of acquiring customers and sort of building a direct relationship. And so we got together and he had gone out and tried to send someone some cool wine. He's a younger guy, was looking for a wine that resonated with him. And all the wine clubs were sort of crusty and just selling faceless, nameless, sort of like back vintage, not great wine. There wasn't anything that was like really culturally relevant to us. And we had this passion and experience for the category. And so the idea was really to take some of the things I've been doing in hand to hand, brand building and connecting with people, his experience and sort of scaling with customers and create something where our message, our stories, our products could go beyond the constrictions of geography or people or the traditional wine market. And so we were one of the first direct consumer wine companies. We've been at it for about eight years now.

Wow. So that had to be challenging though, like all the different things and laws and all of the stuff that you had to face with that and oh my God, can we just talk about shipping costs so tell me about some of the challenges and did you have any points in. Of course you had these points, but tell us about some of the points where you were like, oh, my God, this is. I don't know if this is worth it. Maybe this is going to cost way more or not sure if we went the right direction.

Oh, man. All. All the time. All of those. I mean. And that still, you know, that still happens. Gosh. I remember we threw a huge event early on. We were like, this is going to be, this event is going to be so awesome and so cool and we're going to acquire all these. This is like, really early on. We're going to acquire all these customers. We're going to come away and like 90% of the people there are going to be like, members and they're going to sign up for a lifetime. And it was such a. It was an awesome party. We all had an amazing time. I think we got like two customers from it and blew like our entire budget. So I was like, okay, that's not going to work.

So what went wrong with that? If you could go back, like, what was it?

I don't think we understand, like, I don't think we understood converting customers to members versus having a great brand moment.

Got it.

I think that's constantly in conflict with brands and budgets in terms of companies. They're sort of the soft, organic brand building actions and opportunities. And then there's sort of the conversion metrics of what makes a healthy business. And I think we were so early on, we just had no idea.

Oh, God, that's so interesting though, because we work with a lot of entrepreneurs and I think that that's. I literally see that all the time. And I actually, one of the events that I had hosted for the past nine years, like, I think people think it's a great converting thing. Like, oh, you must sell so much stuff from it. And I don't really. But it's a tangible piece of the brand. So I learned to separate them. I was like, okay, this is what makes it really tangible for people. But it's not the, like, you can get a real expectation hangover like I'm sure you guys had the next day. If you don't know what it is, right. If you're not like, okay, everybody loves it and they got brand awareness, but maybe we didn't spend enough time like with the conversion portion of, of this party potentially. So.

Yeah.

Yeah. So what about. So I would love to know because there's a lot of people listening who are in that space of like, maybe they. They're, you know, putting a lot of their time out in kind of making a splash or getting their brand out there or getting their business or their coaching business or whatever it is out there. What do you think is the magic of, like, attraction and then conversion? I know that's a very large question.

The magic of attraction and. Sorry, I missed. And then.

And then conversion. Like. Like, what needs to happen to convert those people?

Yeah, I think. Well, I think it's a number of things I think you have to check. I don't know. In starting a business, I think you have to check your vision. And if it's a CPG business, for example, or it could be any business, usually you're coming into it with like, a lot of conviction and a really big vision on what could be. And I think there are many more examples and many more lessons than what I've gone through. But that one in particular is kind of like checking your aspirations against your business case. Right. And making sure that you're thinking through when you're deploying dollars and time and resources in an early stage. You want to be realistic with yourself about a return until you can get data and sort of adjust from there. And I don't think we. It was a big swing for us. The appropriate decision for us would be to try a smaller event and trial it and work on a process in terms of how we communicated with people and what the flow was to trigger the result that we need to be sustainable as a company so that we can reinvest and take more risks in the future. And we clearly just. We just didn't do that. So I think it's like checking your vision for the company against your business case and then figuring out how to like, ab test and lean in and get on a track for optimization and learning versus just like giant, giant swings with enthusiasm.

Yeah. I mean, that is such good advice. I can tell you plenty of times when I did that.

Yeah, I continue to do it.

Yeah, yeah. That's the fun part. That's the part where you're like, yeah, this idea is brilliant. Like, I can feel it. And I think for everyone listening, like, just the. Okay, what I would love to know is, you know, you had said if you don't have data. Well, a lot of our ideas don't necessarily have data. So do you guys go out and look for people who have done something similar and try to collect all that you can? Do you bring people who have done this before, or are you guys very much like Going with your own ideas and just doing them a bit smaller and checking them against your audience. Like, how do you collect your info before you do it?

How do we do that now? Yeah, I think now it's kind of changed because we were successful in taking some risks and moving really quickly, but we were able to find some nuggets that became the core of an experience that customers were looking for. And then we were able to get really efficient and really thoughtful in terms of how we connect and how we create value. So a lot of it is like testing, having a thesis and a hypothesis around what's valuable and then testing into how to communicate that and how to deliver that for people in a repeatable way that gets more efficient over time. So we were lucky. We kind of got. We've been able to get through that phase. Now we're really focused on building brands and launching new products like Wonderful Wine Co. And so in the wine business, we're in a unique position where we have this community of younger wine drinkers. Most of our wine drinkers and customers are millennial and Gen X. That's the bulk of them. It's a really interesting part of the market. Boomers kind of drove consumption and ratings by points and all of these habits for the past 20 years, but that's changing rapidly. And so now we have our own internal data points that we can measure against. Like, for Wonderful Wine co, we've seen an increase in lighter, fresher styles of wine, lower sugar styles. It's a low, no added sugar wine. So we've seen that as a trend. We've seen increased searches for vegan and sustainably farmed wines on our site. And then we've seen some varietal trends. So we're really lucky to be able to have a proprietary data channel that allows us to almost be more innovative. Right. We've got people that are members of Wink that we build trust with, that we can now be more innovative and put things in front of them in a small way and get actionable feedback that ultimately leads to, like, a full launch of, like, a wonderful wine cup.

Yeah.

So that's amazing and so cool to watch the evolution of that customer and to be on top of, like, to understand that customer and then speak directly to them. How are you getting feedback? Are you doing this through? You know, because when we talk to a lot of people, they'll come up with these ideas and I'll be like, so what is, you know, what does your audience want or what does your consumer want? And they're like, I actually don't know. And how should I get that feedback? So how are you guys gathering it? Are you asking for it? Are you having people, are you sending surveys? What's the best modality that you've been able to get it back?

Yeah, for sure. I think it's a combination of things, right? You want your own intuition and then you want to kind of test your intuition is how we approach it in many ways. But yeah, we're doing a typical an E commerce company with multiple products and multiple SKUs and a large data set of consumers. There's a lot of on site behavior that we can follow. So there's a lot that's happening just in e commerce metrics in terms of hover states and heat zones on pages and where people are going, what they're adding to cart the velocity of the products. We can also look at what social posts are people responding to, what emails are getting opened, what SMS are people reacting to. And if you've got sort of a synchronized communication strategy with these consumers, you can kind of pull trends out across the entire spectrum. I also think it's really important to survey your consumers a for nps so you know like how you're doing as a company and if you're delivering happiness for people and delivering on your promise.

Just for people who don't know. You said nps, what is nps?

Net Promoter score. Okay, so it's like an ongoing survey that allows you to understand people that are supporting the brand versus detracting the brand consumer base. So it's something as a company you can actually follow over time and focus your team on improving. So if you're doing a better job with the quality of your wines or your delivery or whatever it is, it should show up in your Net Promoter score. So you're serving your customers in a sort of programmatic way. Also think it's super important to know who your best customers are and speak directly to them. I've definitely picked up the phone and we encourage our team to pick up the phone if they'll talk to us, to share what it is that they like or dislike or want to see from us. So you want to, you want to talk to your customers because the way people may perceive you might be very different than the way you perceive yourself. So there's some learnings there. And then we do innovation surveys and types of surveys where we let and invite our audience to give us their feedback on different ideas that we have and categories that we're thinking about and that's incredibly valuable. Too. But I think it's this whole spectrum from sort of super technical data and site behavior clicks and open social listening all the way through programmatic surveying and then picking up the phone and actually talking to your customers face to face. You usually learn so much.

Oh my God, there's so much to be said about that. Because right now someone might be listening and they're like, well, I can't really do that data end. Or I don't have access to that. Or maybe I feel like that's way over my head. But there's still, just like you said, some of the most power is actually in picking up the phone, just throwing out a survey, whether it's on email or it's Instagram or whatever that is. Like, I. Yeah, I can't believe how much you can get back just from what we already have at our. At our fingertips. Yeah. The, the company that I'm building right now, like, I actually had them build the branding with me, with what resonated most. And I can tell you, like, it's accurately for the exact person that I'm talking to because it was built by them. So it just, it's. We all have access to it now. It's such a cool world that. Especially now with your brand, it's so social media friendly, especially for, you know, who you're going after, that there's so much data there that's accessible to everyone. So if you guys are listening, you ha. You already have, you know, places that you can access a lot of this information to get started or to move forward even more. So what is something that is like, lighting you up right now that you're just like, I am so super excited about this project that I get to work on. Or maybe it's like this idea that's not out there yet. Maybe you can't share it. Maybe you can share a little bit about it.

Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty focused on wonderful Wineco that we're just in such early days. We just launched a few months ago and it's really, it's awesome because it's a startup within a startup.

Yeah.

You have all of the same decision points and challenges. We have some reference on what we think the business can be, but it's very dynamic. And like you said, the future, like, we're still designing the future of it. So that's super exciting and I love that it's organic and I love that it's kind of from the brand perspective, it's a bit limitless.

Yeah.

So that is really exciting. For us now, it's like prioritization and then we're working on a bunch of alternative format projects. You know, wonderful Wine Co's lightweight glass, sustainable corks.

Oh, that's cool.

Recycled paper. It's a focus for our company and I think when, you know, when you're shipping heavy bottles of glass all over the world, it's really important from a farming perspective, but also just a supply chain and production perspective. So alternative packaging is super exciting for us right now. We've got a couple things launching in the beginning of next year that we're just like tinkering with and figuring out right now. And that's a lot of fun.

Oh, that's so cool. And I think what's so cool about the evolution of ideas for anyone listening, it's like sometimes we think in the beginning that maybe we're, you know, you're going to be a wine company and this is what you're going to do. And all of a sudden when you kind of have that down, you're like, I actually love marketing and packaging and I think that we have an opportunity now that we have an audience. Once you have an audience who's tuned into the same general idea, it's kind of like all of these cool, fun projects can come from it. As long as you keep your focus correct, it's probably very easy to be like, oh, I'm going to shift over here, this is super fun. And then forget about what you're doing. So personally, what's going on right now in your life that you're excited about or do really intersect? Both. Are you like, you know what? Work is also what I'm most excited about.

I am pretty excited about it. We've been very lucky in this time to keep everyone working and continue to grow. So it has taken a lot of work, spend a lot of time on it. I'm also, I mean, I'm also just trying to like chill out. That's not a very good answer, but.

Just trying to, I get it.

Trying to chill, like trying to come up with more routines and programs that, and building better habits that just kind of can help me out. Like right now I'm doing a 30 day Wim Hof breath work thing. I love breath work. I've done like a lot of classes here in Venice and it's something that I really enjoy but I kind of got off that. So now I'm just doing 30 days. So it's a lot of like little, little sort of repetition, habit building tricks and then I have two Beautiful children and a lovely wife, Gina. So spending, like, just trying to make the time with them in the best quality. So a lot of it is like, I think for me, in this period, it's been incredibly busy, but honing in. It's also. I'm trying to hone in on what's really important and be extremely focused on those things. And there's a lot of the sort of joy and excitement that comes from that too.

Yeah, that's awesome. So I. I talk to a lot of really, like, high operating energy, you know, what is successful to the external world. People who also, like, you get those moments of needing, like, a change or needing that moment of like, needing, you know, you need to take a little more care of yourself in order to operate at such a high, like, you know, in such a big way. And a lot of people, myself included, do things like that. Like the cutoff point, like the 30 days, I just. I'm going all in this. Is it like. Or, like I'm not drinking for two weeks. Like, I'm obsessed with wine. Right. But I have to do that a lot. I'm like, two weeks not drinking. Okay, we're gonna do this and then.

Just blurt it out.

Yeah, yeah.

You're like. You're by yourself and you just blurt it out.

You have to. It's like talking to your. First of all, I don't know if you talk to yourself, but that is. That is. Keeps me on track. Myself, keeps me on track. But that moment of, like, the cutoff point, what. What do you think that is? Like, why. Why do you do that? Like, why did you pick. I just need 30 days.

I think it's when. When one behavior is interfering with your success in another area. Right?

Yeah.

Like, I believe in wine and in life, balance is huge, is very important. But I'm kind of an obsessive person, and so I'd like to build in. You know, I have some pretty good habits, but I'm never going to be the perfect person. I know a few people that I think are perfect. They're probably not, but I'm like, man, they got a good routine going. They seem to be all over it and have their shit together. They probably don't in all reality. So for me, I think it's like when I'm like, really trying to get something and I feel like I'm not getting there. And I can identify either causation in my life or something that might help. And then I'm like, 30 days done. I'm in committed and that's a moment that feels just that moment actually feels pretty good to me. When you commit to something like that, you're like, that's it, I'm making a change and this is what the change is going to be like. And I've now just committed to it. So let's see what happens.

God, I'm the exact same way. Because I think the teetering back and forth, like I'm going to kind of try, that's the worst spot ever. It takes up so much energy because I'll do the thing that's, you know, pulling me away from what I actually want again. And then I'll feel, I'll, I'll like feel bad about it. And I'm like either choose to not feel bad about it or fricking stop doing it. But this in between, like energy expenditure on this thing while your brain's trying to operate on your business or you know, it's, it's such a drain, like having that constant thing in the back of your head.

It's so true. I mean prioritization is such a big thing for me and business. Like constantly reprioritizing and thinking about like what are the few things that I can do that affect change and what I'm trying to accomplish personally and professionally. But yeah, that kind of, if you don't have clarity there or you're kind of like in between, that's why it's nice to have things that are time bound and maybe not too long, but if you're like in between, there's like an emotional, there's definitely an emotional drag. You kind of seesaw. And then also just like I feel like people face decision fatigue. I know I get like major decision fatigue where there's too many things hanging out there and you just need to like shut them down and move on.

Yeah. Can you give an example of that? Because I couldn't agree with you more. But just what are some things that for, I mean, go from maybe your average person to a business operator, what do you think are some of the things that people that you see people just getting stuck on?

I think in business. Well, I think in business I think you kind of have to self check on that. Right. Like I think in business there are things that I'm just thinking about in the background that I have not addressed. I know I need to and I know they're either big issues for me to face either face or like value to unlock or put away. So for me it's always things that it's trying to Identify the things that you're sort of like you're focused on but not focused on, but they're hanging on you. You have to be able to dive into those and spent, create the time in your back to back zooms or whatever your life looks like with kids or who knows what. But everybody's short on time. You got to create the time to like go deep and try and find a solution. If you can do that, it's so worth it because it keeps you moving on. Whatever it is. Could be a personal thing, it could be a health thing, could be a family thing. It's worth. We're so distracted now. So like if you can, you know, sense what that thing is, identify it and then take the time to dive in deep and try and solve it, you know, that's, that's how I try and approach it. Yeah.

Best advice ever, you guys, for sure. I always like, I view it as having all of your windows on your computer open and you really just want to focus on the one that's up right now. But you know, you have, you have every single tab draining your battery. And I used to think I didn't have energy. I was like, like, I don't know if I have the energy to be able to run a company like this. I'm not sure. And then I realized I had a million windows open that just aren't important, that they are important, but they needed to be dealt with. And it's like, oh, life is. And I think that is how majority of people are operating. Like there's always that conversation they need to have. There's always that boundary they need to set. There's always that, you know, thing that they need to forgive in themselves or another person or a family member. And it just, I mean, we only have so much energy in a day and it just freaking drains you. So you don't have to tell me right now, but do you have one right now that's just like eating at you that you can feel your energy going to or are you. Do you always kind of get a plan around it or how do you deal with it?

No, I probably have like 3 or 4 some I probably don't want to talk about.

But yeah, we don't have to talk about them. Those are always the ones no one wants to talk about.

Sub 5 all the time. I mean, I've got some business things that I'm trying to figure out and without going too deep into it. It's a directional strategy that requires clarity before everyone starts going in that direction. And working as a team to achieve it. And it's not quite there. And so there are people of. In between, which is frustrating for people and also not effective. And so I need to stop and get an answer. Find an answer. I know that's not really descriptive, but it's around a long term roadmap for something that requires significant investment and requires high alignment from our team and organization. And I feel like I'm kind of roadblocking with this challenge and I need to unblock.

Yeah.

I actually think it makes perfect sense because I think in our teams of different things that we've done throughout, whatever that is, it's kind of like if I have another partial vision and I just gave them a different vision and then I bring in this other one because I'm an idea machine and that's actually a huge thing I need to hone in that they get really. I watch them get. That's out of anything else that could like go wrong in the team. It's typically they're. They're going different directions or they're confused on what I'm trying to tell them because they can't get focused. Right. It's like how we feel when we're not focused. It's like your energy is kind of just. You're just like throwing crap all over and nothing goes anywhere.

Yeah, yeah. You want to avoid sort of churn and confusion and. And that's why alignment and culture in a business is so important. You've got to have that trust and then be able to have those conversations to get to alignment. But yeah, I totally agree. So that's something that I'm working on. Not too descriptive, but you understand the problem clearly.

Totally.

Yeah. I got one right now that. Yeah, we can chat afterwards and help.

Each other through it.

Yes.

For real.

For real. So who helps keep you in chat? Check in your life? Who or what?

Oh, who or what? I mean, pretty much everyone. I mean, I've got a long lead. I mean, I guess I'm kind of a likable guy. So I get away with. I don't know if I can say that, but I get away with more probably than I should. But certainly my kids, my wife, my business partner. It's pretty awesome having a business partner, actually. We have very different styles of everything. Communication, looking at the world, running a business. But it's been incredibly valuable. We check each other all the time and sometimes we're really good at it and how we communicate it. And sometimes we're not so good, but it's A work in progress and having. Having a partner that you really respect and you guys can challenge each other has been incredibly valuable for me. So we keep each other in check quite a bit.

Oh, my God. That just resonated super deep. Like, I'm. It's funny, I'm building a company, but right now I'm, like, dreaming of that person who I can bring in in different ways. But, like, I really feel like, as humans, our best ideas obviously do come, like, together and ideating together. And like, also, also, I'm sure you feel like, some serious accountability for showing up where, when, if you were alone, you'd be like, at the end of the day, it's my company. If I fail, it's only on me. But when I have someone else, I'm like, oh, dang.

Like, you know, Absolutely. I actually have worked with, like, a corporate coach or some leadership coaches who helped us with some, like, some cultural things with our team. And that was a huge part of it, was having someone to speak with openly, but that I was also accountable to on a regular basis and that. It was pretty interesting. Just that fact alone, that accountability makes you sort of address some of those difficult decisions and makes you work on things in a cadence that might slip if you were left to your own devices.

For sure. Okay, I could talk to you all day, but my last question for you is, what do you want? Like, if you could only leave one thing with people in the world, like, just. You had a billboard. This was your billboard. It's the only thing that you could leave in the world. Like, a piece of advice. What's something that you just want people to know about life?

Something I want people to know about. I'm conflicted. Billboard or life? I had a billboard idea, and then I was like, what do I want people to know about life?

Yeah.

You're like, wait, I love marketing. What can I put on a billboard?

Yeah, I was like, I've got a great idea there. I think just that, Gosh, I wish I had something better to say.

Oh, I usually don't. So I'm excited to hear your answer too.

I mean, I think. I think it's like, you gotta just, like, believe in yourself, but accept yourself as well. Right? I think that that balance of, like, life is life is gonna change, but why don't we just stop there? Believe in yourself, but also, you know.

Accept yourself as well, Grace. It's the only way you can actually grow. For sure. I love that. Well, I'm so grateful for you, and I would love for people to learn about how they can be a part of what you're doing and get all of the wine.

Yes. Please Visit us at wink.com or wonderfulwine.com or in any number of retailers. And hopefully soon, more of our restaurant partners coming back. And we'd love to pour you a glass of wine and share what we're so excited about. Thank you so much, you guys.

It's literally such a fun brand. It's the most beautiful, fun branding. I think it's such an awesome gift because it's very unique. You're giving wine, but you're giving wine in such a. It feels like a new experience of wine. So definitely go check it out. Something that we love to do for our guest, Brian is that everybody gets to either tag you or the wine brand and let you know what their biggest takeaway was. So what would you like them to tag on Instagram?

You can tag Wonderful Wineco. I'm at B Smith Lee H L Y.

Okay, amazing. So you guys definitely tag those two tags and let him know what your biggest takeaway was or if you had an aha moment. And until next time, earn your happy. Bye, everyone. Thank you guys so much for spending.

This time with me on the earn your happy podcast. I am so glad that you stopped by. If you could take one second to share this episode with someone you think would love it, that would be absolutely amazing and we would be forever grateful. Also, please leave us a review if you feel feel so moved by going to itunes and leaving us an honest thought, an honest comment, Tell us what you think, tell us what you want.

To hear more of.

It would really help us out on our journey to helping thousands and thousands of people. Until then, don't forget to earn your happy. Thanks again, guys.

Bye.

Bye.