730: Negotiating With a Narcissist with Rebecca Zung

What narcissists will do a lot of times is they'll take a conversation that was sort of about that, like maybe kind of related, and twist it so that you start questioning your own brain.

Welcome to the Earn your happy podcast. I'm Lori Harder, founder of Light Pink, best selling author, three time fitness world champion, and I'm a crazy, multi passionate entrepreneur. My journey has taken me everywhere, from being a broke waitress, barista, retails associate and personal trainer with massive anxiety and no belief in myself, to later becoming a multimillionaire in love with my life. In 2007, my husband and I lost everything. We found ourselves hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. At rock bottom, we had no ideas and I had no education to fall back on. This is when I found personal development and learned everything I could business. Not by choice, but because I realized no one was coming to save me. The conversations on this podcast are going to let you know that you're not alone and that we all feel like we don't know what we're doing. We're going to give you the tools to help you face your fears, take action, start your business, and grow those massive dreams that are keeping you up at night. It's time to create a life that you can't hide from and put so much on the line that your higher self is free, forced to come out. You're going to stop waiting for someone to approve of you and you're going to anoint yourself. Because I'm obsessed about building businesses that give women a platform, I want to feature you. So if you text the word podcast to 310-496-8363, you can get your questions answered on our Q and A segment along with a shout out. And if you rate, review and subscribe to this podcast and we're choosing someone every month to get coached and featured on our show, it just might be you. So let's get started.

Hey everyone, welcome back to the show.

As you know, I'm going to be launching Light Pink.

It's coming this summer. And if you want to see all of the behind the scenes, if you.

Want to get a letter from me.

Of what is going on and all the cool things and opportunities for you that are coming up, go to light pink.com and make sure you opt in on the site. I'm so excited you guys. And today I have Rebecca Zung on the show. She is one of the top 1% of attorneys in the nation, having been recognized by U.S. news & World Report as the best lawyer in America. And as legal elite by Trend magazine. She is the author of the bestselling books Negotiate like you Matter, the Surefire Method to Step up and Win, and Breaking Free, A Step by step divorce Guide and Achieving emotional, physical, and Spiritual Freedom. And she is a sought after major media contributor. Her perspectives are in high demand by television and print outlets as she's been featured on Extra, in Forbes, Huffington Post, Newsweek, Time, Dr. Drew, NPR talk Radio, Good Day New York. Now based in Los Angeles, she's continuing to serve through her very popular YouTube channel, media appearances, podcasts, articles, and on demand programs such as Slate, Slay your negotiations with a narcissist, and Breaking Free Divorce Masterclass. You guys, this is such an interesting conversation about how to negotiate with a narcissist. I was completely enthralled, and I think you're gonna love it. I think you're gonna learn a lot. I know I did. So let's get.

Started. Rebecca, I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thank you so much for coming.

On. Thank you so much for having.

Me. I'm super excited to talk with.

You. Oh, my God. Okay, so I, like, I can't ask you questions fast enough to be honest, because what we're gonna talk about today, I think is either going to bring people a lot of peace or just like, completely blow their minds that they may not know that potentially they have a narcissist in their life that maybe they've been dealing with. And this was so interesting to me because I know that I definitely had one in my life. One or maybe. And I want to know, like, let's just go from the very beginning. First of all, I want to know what exactly is a narcissist? And then I'd love for you to share how you got into what you do, which is helping people negotiate with.

Narcissists. Yeah. What a career.

Right? But thank God for.

You. Yeah, but that is what I do well. So how well who a narcissist is, I mean, I've had to deal with a couple of them myself, too. It's a person who has no inner sense of value. So they feel like they have to get all of their sense of value from the external. They're constantly trying to feed that. And so very inner, fragile.

Self.

And no sense of care, compassion, or empathy for others. It's really both of those things. And I'd like to make sure that people know that because they do come in different forms. There's like the COVID or the grandiose or the malignant Whatever. But they all share those qualities. No inner sense of value, no sense of care or empathy for others. But they can be covert. So I had to deal with a couple of narcissists in my own life, too. One is a business person and one in an extended family situation. And both of them were women. And I remember when somebody, a friend of mine who was a psychologist, pointed out that one of them was a covert narcissist. I was like. To narcissist, to me was like a boastful, bragging, fill the room kind of a person. And a lot of times people will think, oh, if somebody just says anything nice about themselves, then they must be a.

Narcissist.

Assess. But it does. It's not that at all, because you can definitely be covert. It's really that no sense of inner value, and you have no sense of care or compassion or empathy for.

Others. So is this something that's, like, easy to spot right away, or do you think. Because I know that you mentioned a few different kinds. Tell me about the different kinds, because sometimes people, you know, like, you're like, how did this person get into my life? I didn't even see this.

Coming. Yeah, no, they're not so easy to spot because they're really, really good at reading people. And they know how to show up as a perfect person for somebody. And so they're extremely charismatic, usually pretty smart at how they, you know, manipulate their way into people's lives. And they seem wonderful at the beginning. I mean, the most caring person, you know, if you're. I always think of Dirty John, you know, that. That series. I don't know if you saw that, but, you know, with a guy, like, shows up, and here's this woman in her 50s, and she's successful, but she didn't have a man in her life. And, you know, he's, like, doing the dry cleaning and making smoothies for her, and he's like a doctor and all these things, and. Which he wasn't a doctor, of course, but it's what he said that he was. And so, you know, he showed up super perfectly. So the real tip off is, number one, do they seem too good to be true? You know, and I had to deal with it in a business setting. And, you know, the person seemed really, really perfect at the beginning. Like, I thought that we could be best friends. You know, I mean, but they move very quickly. They almost, like, jump levels really, really quickly because they're what they call love bombing or the idealization phase. Is that how that how it starts, and they know how to almost chameleon themselves to be the perfect person for you. And so. But then they want to move the relationship along very quickly. Whether it's a business or a romantic, it doesn't really matter because they don't really want to have to do this deposit into the situation. It's for a purpose. It's to groom you to be a source of narcissistic supply for them. So that. That's kind of how it.

Happens. Oh, man. Supply is such an interesting word. And it's when you've. When you. If anybody's listening and you've been the supply, you fully resonate with that.

Word. I've been the.

Supply. That's where you're like, wow, it feels like a feeding. Like being, you know, you have to feed all the time. And I think, you know, I'm hoping that this episode is really powerful for people to have the realization that, you know, there were times in my life when I. Before I knew what it was, where I was in a couple of relationships just with female people, whether it was extended family, kind of like that. And one was more of a friend situation where I felt crazy no matter what I did, I was wrong or I was doing something wrong, or it was like I couldn't make things right no matter how hard I tried. And I legitimately felt crazy for a solid year of my life in one of the relationships. So what are some of the ways that you noticed that you were feeling that were kind of like. Because if we still can't recognize the person, because maybe they're not, like, showing up as having to be perfect, but they have a lot of those other traits that you. That you said. What are some of the ways that you were feeling that you were noticing? Like, wow, I'm feeling X, Y and Z around this person. This is kind of a telltale.

Sign. Yeah, I mean, I definitely don't want to say names because I don't want either of these people back in my.

World. No, absolutely.

Not. And, you know, like, with the garlic over here, stay.

Away. For.

Sure. But, you know, like, just things.

Like, for example, you know, I had a business situation with one of them, and there was a client that had been referred to the business, and this person serviced the client. And then I noticed that the money never came into the bank.

Account. And so I said something to.

The person, and the person said, oh, I didn't know how to deposit it into the business bank account. Which doesn't really make any sense to me whatsoever. But so I Had to put it in my own account, but I need to talk to my bookkeeper to find out how to do it correctly on the books, to move it over to the other.

Account. And that.

Seems. So this was an educated.

Person. And I was like, that is not sitting right with me. That does not seem right to me. And then I would ask about it every once in a while, and then I started to feel like. Because this person was like, you know, it's me. Nobody has more integrity than I do. I just want to make sure it's the right way. And of course, I want, you know, the business to grow. And, you know, and they're telling you these things, and they seem, like, so sincere and honest in that moment, and they make you feel like you must be such a jerk for, like, even questioning their integrity or, like, thinking.

This.

Right? And, you know, and then, like, then you start to feel, you know, should I even bring it up again? Maybe it's not worth it. Maybe it's like, oh, it's just not that much money. Who really cares? And so you start going, well, maybe I should just go along. But it still doesn't feel right. And then other things are happening, but they're, like, really nice sometimes. And it's like. But, you know, that's, like, not the only thing that's happening. Like, there's other things that are happening, and it's just, you know, you just start to question your own sanity.

Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely. What does that. A good.

Example. Yes. I'm, like, right there with you. I'm like, yeah, something similar. What does. So for me, a new term for me in, like, the last year was gaslighting. I didn't understand what that was. Even though it was something that had happened in my life that I'm like, that's what that is. Oh, my gosh. Like, I had had someone in my life where I would say, what happened? Or a memory that I had had. And it was like, well, this is how I felt, and this is the memory, and this is what happened. And it was the. It was the. That didn't happen. You know, someone who was there. And I'm like, yes, it did. And it's like, no, that didn't.

Happen. And I'm like, no, that's exactly what gaslighting is. It's so. It comes from the movie Gaslight from, like, the 40s. I think it was a show as well, or something. Okay. And what the husband was doing was trying to make the wife think she was crazy so he would blow out these gas lights. And she would say, wasn't that just Lynn? And he would say, no, no, it wasn't. So it's like to make you question your own reality, you know? So like in my situation, I would have a conversation with one of the narcissists I was dealing with and we would agree to something. And then I would see the person doing things that were completely contrary to the agreement. And I would say, what are you doing? And the person would say, we had a conversation about that. You agreed to.

That. And I'd be like, we never talked about that. We never agreed to that. But what narcissists will do a lot of times is they'll take a conversation that was sort of about that, like maybe kind of related, and twist it so that you start questioning your own.

Brain. Like, did.

We. Was that part of the conversation? Like, I don't remember it that way, you know, but when, when that especially I can't. I've never had to deal with it in a romantic.

Situation. Thank.

God. I always have to tell people my husband's not a narcissist. Everybody like my poor husband. But it was so bad. I mean, it was like. And it gets into your brain and you just start like ruminating on it all the time. Like it just like sucks the life out of.

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Side. So have you dealt? I'm sure that you have because a lot of what you do is with either, you know, family members or spouses. What happens when it's someone so close to these people and they're, you know, especially when like love and emotions and all of the things are involved. How do you start to separate yourself from this like crazy illusion that is created in their world when you're so tied to.

Them? It's really, really hard. I mean I had to deal with this with a family member who is still in the process of separating out from a narcissist. And you know, this particular family member was still very in love with his wife and really didn't want to a divorce and really but you know, he didn't realize it was like trauma bonding and that, you know, what was going on. And honestly, I started helping him before I actually started doing a lot of the YouTube videos, because I really only started doing YouTube like, a year ago. And then when I started doing the videos and he started watching my videos and he even came to my free webinar, my own.

Cousin.

Wow. And he was like, oh, my God, this is what I. What she is. He's like, but I try to tell him that. And he didn't really. Until he actually started watching my videos and hearing how I laid it out and the kinds of things that they say and the kinds of things that they do and the specific examples, that's when they start to realize and that's honestly, you know, there is PTSD involved in everything. But I've spoken to psychologists and what they say is, like, it's actually the first step is going, oh, my God, it is them, it's not me. And then the healing actually happens fairly quickly once they can, you know, get out of the.

Situation. Oh, my gosh, that is like this. This is why this conversation I'm is so powerful, is because when you can realize it is not you, you can start to, like, detach energetically and you can realize that the power is in your court. Like, you have the ability to gain your power back because you can. I think that's the biggest thing is you feel extremely powerless, you know, when you're in. In relationship with these people. And so what are some of the things you know, I think your videos are so helpful. You guys definitely go follow her on YouTube. We're going to link everything up. But your videos are so powerful because you give us things to do. So how do we, you know, let's just say they're in your family, or let's say you're working with one. How do we start showing up for these people? I know one of the things that you said not to do, which I think this might be a really good place to start, is what not to do. When we are in our first moments of realization and in the beginning of trying to figure out how to kind of get out of these.

Relationships. Well, you don't give them anything that ends up being ammunition down the road. So just getting your emotions in check. I tell people to have really strict boundaries or keep the interaction brief so that you're not triggered because they want to trigger you, they want to goad you. They want you to get upset because then they can turn around after they've goaded you and say, look, at you. You're.

Crazy. Look at you going.

Nuts. You know, I mean, and I actually, the video I have coming out today actually is Narcissists Care a Lot. I don't know if anybody has watched I Care a Lot on.

Netflix. I just watched it. It was so.

Good. Okay, so you got to watch my video today. It just came out. Narcissist Care A Lot. It's my breakdown of that show. But there's a scene, and this is a spoiler alert for those of you who haven't seen it, but there is a scene where the guardian, the main character, is like goading the older woman at the nursing home. And you're this and you're that. The woman stands up and chokes her and then she turns around and uses it against her in court. And that's what narcissists do. So a big huge don't is don't give them ammunition because anything you say or do will be used against you. It's worse than getting arrested because, you know, it's like they will definitely use that and many times they've goaded it out of you. So don't allow yourself to be triggered by remaining. Keeping super strong boundaries in place, keeping your interactions with them really brief. That's really. Those are the two things that you can definitely do. Of course, go no contact if you can. But some people are still dealing with them. Maybe it's a business partner, maybe it's a, you know, they have children together or whatever. And you can't just completely cut it off, but you can control the.

Conversation. Yeah, I talked to some people recently who. It's a parent or, you know, that's something they, they can't cut off. And they're in a lot of interactions with, with them. So that's been, that's been interesting. Like, how would somebody. Would you just lessen interaction if it's, if it is a parent, you would just. What do you do around holidays? What do you do around all of those.

Things? Totally. I mean, we have a situation where we're dealing with that and you just say, okay, I'm going to control the interaction and the amount of time. We'll go over there on Christmas Day, we will stay for one hour. We will not engage in conversation in anything other than the pot roast and the wassail or whatever, and then we will leave and that's that. And, you know, giving yourself like time limits sometimes really, really helps having an agenda when you go and speak to them. You know, we're going to talk about this, anything beyond this agenda is we're not talking about. And then just having phrases that you can, you know, my slay program, I have program, and in my slate program, I have 50 key phrases to disarm a narcissist. You know, so you have like an arsenal of things that you can say, like, you're right, you know, or I'm sorry you feel that way, or I can understand that that's your position. You know, things like that where you're basically staying detached from it and you're not giving them more fuel. Because if you start to get into the mud, like, if they say, oh, you're a horrible par, and you're.

Like, okay, I just picked them up.

From school, I fed him a snack, I'm helping them with homework, I took them to baseball. Like, how am I neglectful over here? But if you start to get into it with them and start defending yourself, then you're in it. That's where they've got you, down in the mud, and that's where they want you to be. So I always say, never explain. Justifier over share. Just respond.

Factually.

Yes. Another thing you said is never call them a.

Narcissist.

No. So tell me about that one, because I do think some people realize it. And then they're like, trying to show the person this is what they are and this is what they do. What happens with.

That? We're never convincing them of that ever. So don't waste your time, breath, or.

Energy. And I would just, you know.

And be careful because, you know, they're very good at deflection and projection. And so if you start using words like narcissists, then be prepared that that's what you are and that's what they're going to tell everybody that you are as well. I mean, so, you know, be careful about the kinds of things you throw out.

There. So interesting. One of my biggest experiences and realizations was just this aha moment of. With this type of personality, I was like, no matter what I do, I become like, I am now the victim of this person. But by being the victim of a narcissist, you are the victimizer of them and they think they're the victim. So it's like always, what is that about that person? Is this something that is like, you know, is this for psychologists? Do they truly, like, you know, just people sit in the chair and they're like, whoa, this person's a narcissist. Do they. Are there classic things that they go down and check the boxes I know we kind of talked about that, but tell me a little more about.

That. Yeah, so there's a DSM 5, and you know, I'm not a psychologist, but I just have studied this so that I can understand how to negotiate with them. And the DSM 5 has seven different criteria that they look at, which is, you know, shamelessness, no boundaries, magical thinking, entitlement, you know, things like that. But, you know, very few narcissists end up in the chair to.

Go. Yeah, that's.

Me. It's the other people.

Right? Yeah. So, I mean, they estimate that it's 10% of the population has either narcissism or narcissistic traits or tendencies, but who really knows? I mean, all I know is that there's not a person on the.

Planet that hasn't had to deal with.

Them. Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think this will be super helpful. So what are some classic things that you kind of always see with people who, when they come to you for your help or to kind of like learn how to negotiate? What are some things that you see and what are some tips that you can give them to help disarm some of those basic things that you see all the.

Time? Yeah. So the one thing I wanted to say so slay is my methodology, which is strategy, leverage, anticipate, and focusing on you. And so it's slay your negotiation with a narcissist in divorce. I have a slave for business, you know, and so we have like coaches as well. But the thing you have to understand about narcissists is that they're just only after one thing at all times, which is narcissistic supply. And supply can come in the form of adulation and prestige and people thinking highly of them and the society and the community thinking that they're wonderful. That's all like grade A diamond level supply for a narcissist.

Okay.

Yep. Then there's like the dark, what I call the dark underbelly, which is like the coal level supply. It burns, it gives them energy, they still love it, they want both. But it's not as good in the hierarchy of supply from a narcissist point of view. And that is devaluing, debasing people, intimidating people, making them squirm, driving them crazy, getting them to be in the mud with them. They love all that too. So the key in negotiating with them is getting putting a situation together where you have a strategy and leverage that kind of leans on that diamond level grade A supply and maybe threatens. Threatens it. Threatens. Threatens Them to be exposed in some way, you know, either in front of the judge or other people that they respect. And only by doing that will they let go of the diamond level supply of making your life miserable. Are they co level supply of making your life miserable. So that's kind of like the whole thing in a.

Nutshell. But, you know, when people come into my webinars or buy my programs or things, you know, the biggest thing that I see is just the mindset of understanding that they are the most scared little people on the planet. They don't want you to know that. They want you to be scared. They want you to be intimidated. And so a lot of times people are like, oh, my God, they're gonna go crazy if I do this. They're going to, you know, and then they end up constantly on the defensive, and they can't figure out why they're not getting anywhere in their cases because they're not creating a strategy to be on the offensive. You kind of have to be aggressive when it comes to litigating with narcissists, especially in a divorce situation. But even, you know, in a business setting or whatever, or negotiating with them, you kind of have to, you know, they respect you more if you're willing to stand up to them. In a lot of.

Ways, too many people finish their workday feeling frustrated, drained, and.

Unfulfilled. I know.

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Opposite of what people have done with them. And I know that you have so many courses on this, like taking people step by step through. You know, when I was watching your YouTube, it's kind of like, okay, if they do this, this is what you can do to disarm them or this is what you can expect. Where do you see people classically like going wrong? Where do they tend to lose their power majority of the time, even if they kind of have learned about it? Where are they going to get triggered or lose their.

Power? Oh, there's so many places they can start skidding off the road, but giving them the supply that they want. In some ways, not going on the offensive, not having the right mindset where you feel like you can win, you can beat this. I'll talk to people and they'll be like, well, I'll never get that, or if I do that, then he'll go crazy or I'm just gonna go ahead and give in on this thing, you know, And a lot of times you're giving away your leverage even before you start just because, you know, a lot of times narcissists and empaths find their way to each other. And so empathic people, it's really against their brain to think, oh, I have to have strategy and leverage and all, you know, because I don't want to fight. I just want this thing to be over, right? And so it's counterintuitive to say, well, if you don't, you don't want to fight, then you have to have strategy and leverage or you're definitely going to have a.

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Do? I really wish that they knew that you're not on the same page when you start to negotiate, you, reasonable person are just thinking in your brain, what do they want? I'll just give it to them so it'll be over. And not realizing what they want is to continue to jerk you around so they can get narcissistic supply from that so you're not on the same page. They're not trying to settle the case, they're trying to jerk you around and manipulate you. And until you realize that you're going to be spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and many hours of your life and time and energy and still be.

Nowhere. So you're in this. Like this is your career, this is what you've become an expert in. This is what you're known for. What still excites you about this? Like what? When you are learning More or you're helping people? Like, what is your favorite part about all of.

It? Oh, my gosh. I get literally hundreds of emails a day and direct messages on people who have said that I have saved their lives. Wow. That they left a toxic relationship after 28 years because of me. That they just won. They beat their narc in court because of me, that I saved their children's lives. Literally. I have two girls that all they do all day long is respond to emails because I still want people to get, like, a personalized response. And so because of the nature of what I do, that's, you know, amazing to.

Me.

Mm. Tell me about your book. You have. You have two.

Books. Two.

Books. Okay, tell me about your.

Books. Yeah. So Breaking Free, a step by step divorce guide I wrote in 2013. That's been a while ago now, but it's still really good. And it's Breaking Free emotionally, physically, and spiritually. I take you through all the emotions and then the actual divorce every step of the way. Assets, children, parenting plan, all the things that you need to think about. And then spiritual freedom. And then I have Negotiate like youe Matter, which came out in 2019, and Robert Shapiro wrote the foreword for that. And it's, you know, all about negotiation in.

General. I.

Do. I do have some references to narcissism in there, but I wasn't really focusing that in 2019, so I didn't really go too heavily in that there. But my courses, I have a lot more on.

That. So negotiate like you matter. Tell me about what that one is about, because I think the topic of negotiating is freaking amazing. I'm actually so in it right now and, like, what can be negotiated, which. Which I'm learning is everything but the art of negotiation. Tell me a little bit more about what that particular book as well. Negotiating like you matter.

Correct. That's what it's called.

Yeah. Negotiating like you.

Matter. And I called it that because I remember hearing a quote from Oprah saying that after 25 years of doing her show that all she realized that no matter if they were heads of state or whatever, all people want to feel seen, heard, and know that they matter. And it resonated with me because I was like, oh, that's what's really going on in the negotiation. People are trying to feel valued, and they want to make sure that they get value out of the negotiation or they're not going to settle, or if they do, it won't.

Stick.

Interesting. And so MATTER is the acronym.

That I came up with for how to negotiate. My value is defined by me and all that sort of thing. And I don't even, I mean, I incorporate that methodology now in the slay program because I'm really focusing more on negotiating with narcissists, either in business or personal. But the methodology is still the same. I mean, it's, it's, you know, mostly focusing on your mindset, number one, but then it's like doing your research, you know, tackling hard issues. Second, you know, doing the start with areas that you might agree and then work toward more difficult areas, you know, keeping your emotions out of it, reporting agreements and writing. So I mean, the methodology is still, you know, exactly what I.

Do. I love that. What are you doing when you are at your.

Best? I really am loving being super creative and coming up all of this content and coming up with ways to serve people and impact people on a greater level. I absolutely love doing this. And you know, as a divorce attorney, which I don't really practice that much anymore because I don't have to, but I am a partner still at a firm. But you know, on a day to day basis, running cases and dealing with people who are unhappy and staff and opposing counsel and judges and all of that was a very, very stressful way to make a living, frankly. And so I'm much happier and I'm very, very grateful that I can use the knowledge that I gained from being in those trenches all those years to help people literally all over the world. I mean, I actually sold a program to a guy who's a researcher on Antarctica. And I was like, okay, we've hit all continents.

Now. That's awesome. That's amazing. So let's talk about that pivot point because to the outside world, you have this amazing job. You're incredible at it. You were known as one of the best in your field. Except clearly there was a point for you that you were like, wow, this is stressful. I'm not as happy as I could be. I'm good at what I do. Tell me about that pivot point and how you were like, I need to be doing something that I enjoy more. Like, what did that look like for you? Because it couldn't have been easy at first. And was it scary? Tell me all the.

Things. Yeah, sure. So I had set out to build the best family law practice in southwest Florida. And I wanted to be the top and I wanted all these accolades. I wanted to be best lawyers in America by U.S. news. I wanted to have all of those things. And you know what I realized is that I'm really an entrepreneur at heart. Like, I loved building the company and creating the business and building the brand. I didn't love the maintenance phase of it. I always say, like, I built it and then it basically ate me alive. And I had such a great reputation that I literally couldn't have never stepped outside of my office ever again, except to go to court and continue to have a stream of business. I mean, it was way too much business for me. And I tried to hire more people and all this other stuff, and I just feel. It felt like it wasn't serving my soul anymore. I was just like tired and I just felt like I'm not, you know, I felt a tremendous amount of integrity to my clients. And I was like, if I'm not giving them my best, then I feel like I shouldn't be doing this. And my daughter is now just a freshman at UC Davis, but she was just starting high school. And I was like, I know I only have a few more years with her and I want to spend more time with her, and this is not allowing me to do that. Yeah. So I merged my practice with two other guys in the town where I was and you know, and my husband always wanted to come back to school. So callous is where he had lived. You know, we met in law school and so he had lived out here after college, like right before I met him. And I was like, yeah, let's just do it. And you know, it's so funny because people in the town were like, oh my God, does she have cancer? She's like, who would walk away from a practice like that? But, you know, I'm still a partner there. I still bring in clients, but I don't really run the cases on a day to day basis anymore. And it's like served my soul so much because I love being creative. I love coming up with ideas for content or ways that we can serve this audience and these people. And I know, you know, right now I'm pretty sure I'm the only lawyer on the planet who's really doing this teaching in any kind of a meaningful way. And there's so much more that we can do. I mean, there's so many ideas that I have all day long on how to, to serve these people and help them create brand new lives. And I love.

It. So that's amazing. And it's so needed, especially how accessible you're making it right now. But you must have found yourself and maybe you still feel this way, like a total beginner in certain things, like oh, my God. Sitting and hitting record on a camera, and how do I get this content out and who do I talk to? What had with to do change in your life? Who did you have to, you know, start hanging around? What conversations did you start to have in order to, like, understand what this new world was of entering, you know, you're entering into the digital world. You're going from, like.

Totally. Totally a world I never even knew.

Existed. Yep. How'd you discover it? What helped.

You? You're so perceptive. You're a good.

Interviewer. Well, thank.

You. Yeah. These are good questions. Yeah. So I was not sure what I wanted to do next, actually. I had no idea. And so after I had merged my practice and you were out here in California, I was listening to entrepreneur podcasts just because I find them interesting. And I heard Russell Brunson on a podcast, and he was like, oh, get my free book, Expert Secrets. And of course, I didn't know it was a funnel at the time. I'm like, free book sounds awesome. So I was totally sucked into his whole funnel by, you know, by getting that free book. And then I started just listening to everything he had to say and taking notes and learning how to build funnels and.

What. I never heard of a landing.

Page or a lead page or anything like that before. I literally taught myself all of it brand new. And then I took a course on how to do YouTube videos and how to do the SEO and all of that. And, like, it was a good little student and did it exactly the way they said. And I thought, well, let me give it a shot. You know, like, what do I have to.

Lose?

Right? And so, like, I really just started doing it in a meaningful way, like, about a year ago, and I literally went from zero subscribers to over 100,000 in 10.

Months.

So. So which is a combination of the SEO, but also the content was very.

Needed.

Yeah. I'm so happy you're sharing this, because I think people can feel really stuck in what they're doing. And I think what happens is we start out in our lives and we have something that we're really good at, not realizing a lot of the times that it's meant to evolve, it's meant to change. And sometimes it doesn't mean even leaving what you're doing because you're still doing the main heartbeat of what you were doing before. But sometimes we get tired. Like, you were feeling tired and not energized anymore because of kind of the.

Delivery.

Right. And constantly having to work one on one with People when you may have realized you really have more of like a teacher archetype that you could fulfill. And I think what is so cool with a story like yours is there's a lot of people who can be great at something, but it doesn't have to be trading time for money, or it doesn't have to be working one on one or coaching in a certain way. You can really teach to the masses and reach a lot more people. So tell me what you've enjoyed more. I know that you've said, you know, the creation process, but what kind of like, freedom has that given to you, being able to, like, teach now digitally and to the masses? What does that feel like? Does that feel better to you than like the constant one on one? Like, what is, what is different?

Totally. Well, obviously I'm not trading time for money anymore. I mean, you know, I've been able to create a situation where people have access to my knowledge, methods and strategies which they never would have had access to for just a few hundred dollars. Obviously, you don't even get to talk to me for that much money, even in one client meeting as a.

Lawyer.

Right. But they get to have my whole entire course and all my secrets for that. And that's like a huge gift, really, that I feel like I'm giving to the world in a lot of ways. I mean, because no other lawyer's doing that. I mean, if you want to talk to lawyer, you're paying a $10,000 retainer or whatever it is, you know, I mean, so at a minimum, maybe a lot more. And so I think that, you know, that enthuses.

Me. I.

Love. I also love connecting with people like you and other entrepreneurs who are up to really, really cool.

Things. That totally energizes.

Me. I feel like I found my people, you know, because anybody who's in this space who's working hard to improve lives of other people and constantly thinking of ways that you can make people's lives better and impact people in a positive way. They're my people, you know, it's so cool, you know, and I'm really grateful to shout out to our mutual friend Susan Sly, who introduced us. Yeah, love her because she's great, too. I mean, you know, just for me, being able to be in this world of being with people who, you know, we elevate each other. It's a world of abundance. I help you, it makes this all better. I love.

That. Oh, I love that too. I so resonate with so many things that you just said and what I love about your story, too, is the creative thinking, like, the, okay, what else can I do with this, you know, skill that I have? And it's so. We're living in a time where it is, like, we have got so much opportunity of who it can help and how it can help. And, like, you can get so niche. Like, look how niche your particular. This is so niche. I mean, it is like, you know, some people in the past might have been like, wow, that's really.

Niche.

I'm. I'm not really sure how that's gonna go. And it's like, the fact that you are so niche, I think has been such a blessing. And it's like, you know exactly who you're talking to. You know exactly who your people are, you know exactly what to say, you know exactly what content is gonna hit for them. So I actually think that there's so much room for a lot of people who might be out there. Like, wow, I have a really niche thing that I.

Do. And.

It'S. I don't know if it's gonna work. I have seen the. I mean, yours isn't, you know, crazy because it's actually quite. It's quite needed. But I have seen some crazy things. Like people who are like, well, I, you know, I am really good at weaving baskets, and they've put out courses that make tons of money on, like, very specific.

Things.

Total. I, you know, there's a saying out there is like, there's riches and niches and broad equals.

Broke. I did broad and it didn't do very.

Well. So, yeah, I tried actually, the.

First few videos, if you look.

At. Dig deep in my old YouTube stuff, I tried doing like, you know, clothing color psychology in negotiating and negotiating pay raise and things like that. And it was just too, like. It may do better now if I did that, just because I have more of an audience, you know, now. But, you know, I did one video on how to negotiate with a narcissist just for like, almost like to make myself start doing.

Videos.

Yeah. And so I just literally, like 4 o' clock one afternoon, I'm like, I'm doing it. I just turned on zoom. I didn't even, like, brush my hair. If you, like, look at this old video, it's like, it wasn't really meant to be. I didn't think anybody would actually see it, Right. And I throw it up there. It's like two and a half minutes, and I was like, okay, did it. And then that video got like 650 views. And all my other videos had like.

10. You're like, damn it, I want to brush my.

Hair. Oh, my God. Like, that's crazy. And so I was like, okay. And plus, I was dealing with narcissists in my own life, so I was studying everything I could about it, and I realized, oh, you know, I.

Can actually apply what I'm learning about.

Narcissists to what I know about negotiation. So I was like, let me just start doing a couple of videos on that and see how it.

Goes. Okay, you said a couple things that just, like, I have to repeat back to people that you did, because this is what we always talk about when people are. Are trying to pivot and launch a business online or scale or grow or find what that thing is. And you literally collected data. You just kept throwing things at the wall of like, okay, I'm going to try this. We're going to try this, we're going to try this. And then you looked at the data. This is 10 views, whatever views. 650. Okay, let's go a little bit more on this one. Now that we have data on this. And. And so many people are trying to be perfect and nail that perfect video, kind of like what you said, or nail that perfect program or nail that without. Without knowing what hits yet, you know, And I love that. I think videos are a brilliant way to kind of like, figure out what your audience even wants. Just try a bunch of videos and then the ones that are. That are hitting. Or try a bunch of posts, right? Like whether it's Instagram or Facebook, and go a little bit deeper on the ones that actually resonate. Then you can put your energy, maybe some ad, spend some money there, which is so brilliant. You collected data. What are some other things that you've seen that you feel have been making you successful in the online.

Space? Yeah, so I'm actually helping a.

Friend get set up with this whole online space business right now. And she's starting a. She has her own food product and she wants to, you know, start coaching people on starting a food product business. And she's like, oh, maybe it's too niche or whatever. I'm like, just get out there, start doing it. I bet you'll find that there's lots of people out there who want to do.

It. I mean, look at you. You're doing one right now.

Right? I mean, so I told her. I'm like. Because she's like, I have to build the.

Program. I'm going.

To. You know, these are all the things I'm going to Put in the program. And I said, just start coaching people first. Like literally do videos and get people into your, you know, give your free, do your freebie, whatever it.

Is. And then, you know, have that.

Freebie go, you know, have like a 5 sequence of nurture emails.

Yeah.

And. And then have those nurture emails go to, you know, a discovery call with you and then sell them on a coaching package. Because that's low hanging fruit. You get money in the door right.

Away. And that way you also can.

Start seeing what do people actually need. Because you don't want to create a program that has all these extra things in it that people don't actually want or need. Perfecting it, making it amazing and all that stuff. One of the best pieces of advice I got from someone was that you can build the plane while you're.

Flying.

Yeah. And you know, especially in this space, if that's what people want to.

Do. Oh my gosh. One of the most freeing things that I had ever heard was it was when I was starting to make courses and Brendan Bouchard had talked about he didn't have anything to sell. And he was speaking on all of these different. He was speaking on all these different stages. In one particular stage, he realized all the speakers before him, he was kind of towards the end, had a program to offer and he didn't have a program. And he was like, oh my God, I'm on this stage and I have this opportunity. I don't have a program. And he went out there and he was like, literally just created a program based off of what he was seeing from like some of the feedback of what people were wanting. And he pitched a program that did not exist and sold it to a ton of people based off of the feedback he was getting from the audience. And then he built it really fast off of the things that he was, I think he had like surveyed people or something like that of like, what do you want to learn? And in this program, literally built this thing that was not built. So he sold a program that didn't even.

Exist. That's.

Amazing. It was so.

Free.

It's. It literally was what I started doing at my events because I wanted to do exactly what they had wanted. And sometimes before you're prepping for an event, you don't always have time to create a program. Except let me tell you, nothing makes you create a program better than a deadline. So I know you probably know that as.

Well. Oh, I might. Well, I always say if it.

Weren'T for the last minute, nothing would be would get.

Done. Oh my God, that's so good to keep that. That is a story of my life. My husband's like, lori, no matter what amount of time you ever have, you save it till the end. I'm like, and I always do.

It. That's, that's one of my favorite things. Like, I'm such a good, I'm so good at that. But you know, like, even if you're doing like an eight week program or something and you're going to deliver it live, you only have to do one week at a time to prep. Like, you know, you just need to make sure that next week you're ready and then the following week you're ready. Right. You can just get people in there and then be ready, you know, by the time it goes.

Totally. And it might seem backwards to people, but man, it's like it focus more on getting the people in and then once they're in, you know, it's people focus too much on the program and don't have anyone to sell it to. And it's always the other way around. Like acquire your audience, you know, like you said, give things away for free. Add value, all the things and, and then you can talk about what you can give them. So you have got something for all of our listeners that you want to share. So what is.

That? I do. It's a free crush my negotiation prep worksheet. So if you want to crush your negotiation, you need to get it and you just get it@winmynegotiation.com so winmynegotiation.com it's a 15 page ebook. It's not like it's one of those giveaways where it's like a one sheeter or something. It really is like a very substantial freebie. So definitely grab that come. You know, if you put in negotiate with a narcissist in YouTube, you will most definitely find me. And if you go to Ebeccazung.

On Instagram, you'll find me.

There. Amazing. I'm so grateful for you. Thank you so much for coming on. I'm sure there's a lot of people like oh my God right now. So I hope that they, you know, get their. I know that they're going to gain some power back and just feel a little more free in their lives. So you guys definitely let Rebecca know what your aha moment was, what you resonated with by tagging her on Instagram. Sharing this podcast, that's always one of the biggest things that you can do for our guests is let them know the impact that they actually made. And let me tell you, it's really nice to know who we were talking to during the show. So it's fun to see your face. And you guys know that I always like to share your shares. So, Rebecca, thank you again, so much. I appreciate you. You're amazing. You guys definitely go find her, follow her, watch her YouTubes, share them. I have shared them with so many people in my life and my family. So you guys go share the video with somebody that you know who could really use some help with this. And until next time, earn your.

Happy. Bye.

Everyone.