812. Psychotherapist Terri Cole On Boundaries & Its Relationship To Codependency, How To Stop Saying Yes And Creating Your Proactive Boundary Plan

So you have a VIP section in your life. But what most people don't know is that you made the guest list. You're the only bouncer and if you don't put up the rope, anyone comes in and feels entitled to your sunshine, your bandwidth, your energy, your time.

Welcome to the Earn your Happy podcast. I'm Lori Harder, founder of Light Pink, best selling author, three time fitness world champion, and I'm a crazy, multi passionate entrepreneur. My journey has taken me everywhere. From being a broke waitress, barista, retails associate and personal trainer with massive anxiety and no belief in myself, to later becoming a multimillionaire in love with my life. In 2007, my husband and I lost everything. We found ourselves hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt at rock bottom. We had no ideas and I had no education to fall back on. This is when I found personal development and learned everything I business. Not by choice, but because I realized no one was coming to save me. The conversations on this podcast are going to let you know that you're not alone and that we all feel like we don't know what we're doing. We're going to give you the tools to help you face your fears, take action, start your business, and grow those massive dreams that are keeping you up at night. It's time to create a life that you can't hide from and put so much on the line that your higher self is forced to come out. You're going to stop waiting for someone to approve of you and you're going to anoint yourself. Because I'm obsessed about building businesses that give women a platform, I want to feature you. So if you text the word podcast to 310-496-8363, you can get your questions answered on our Q and A segment along with a shout out. And if you rate, review and subscribe to this podcast, we're choosing someone every month to get coached and featured on our show. It just might be you. So let's get started.

Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. Before we get into our epic guest talking about one of my favorite topics of all time, I want to remind you that if you've ever gotten value from the show, I would love to.

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That you wanna start, you absolutely don't wanna miss that. And that is inside of the gift guide. So go download that now, link in Show Notes. Or you can go to inklightpink on Instagram, give us a follow, that'd be great. And then go download the link in the bio. By the way, how are you? We're coming up on the holidays, 2021. My birthday is coming up. Actually it's today, the day that this airs. And it's always a time for me that I start to just really think about life and really just go inward and also get really grateful and look at what I've done. Am I on the path that I want to be on? And this is a time for me where there are a lot of shifts and changes. Because as much as I love my life, I definitely feel like I wanted to do a complete U turn. So a lot of you can see that with the direction that I'm taking with Light Pink, also the direction that I'm taking with wanting to start a family and wanting to live in two different places, which is amazing and also a really huge shift.

So working out all of these different.

Things and figuring out what that's going to look like and I just wanted to take a second to ask truly how you are and to ask yourself how you are and if you are on the path that you want to be on. Because at any given fricking time, you can change it. And no matter what anybody says, no matter what it looks like to anyone else, that is up to you. What you want for your life, to take that wheel back over and put it in the direction that you want, just point it. It's amazing what happens when you just start to look in the direction that you want to go instead of ignoring it or shoving it down. So introspective thoughts going into our podcast with my amazing guest Terri Cole. We are talking all about boundaries today.

She is a New York based licensed.

Psychotherapist, relationship expert and founder of Real Love Revolution Boundary Bootcamp.

How cool is that name?

And the co founder of Crushing Codependency. Her female empowerment courses reach women in 90 countries. Her approach combines the best of practical psychology and Eastern mindfulness practices. She has A gift for making complex psychological concepts accessible and then actionable so that clients and students achieve sustainable change which equals true transition. She has incredible stats that she has accomplished. She has been incredible TEDx speaker. She's also been on AE's Monster in Law. She's been on Hay House Radio, the Daily Love well and good Huffington Post, you guys. Her info explains spans across so many different modalities. Her latest book, Boundary Boss, which I own and I love, the essential guide to Talk True, Be Seen, and finally Live Free. She is sharing specific skills to help you out in your boundary behaviors that don't serve you. So you guys, let's get started. I can't talk about boundaries enough because boundaries equal freedom and boundaries are the thing that are going to help you create that dream life and get back into alignment so that you can stop doing the things that you don't love and having your life go down a path that you hate and turning that ship around. It's definitely something I'm practicing so much right now. So let's get started.

Terri, I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thank you so much for coming on.

Thanks so much for having me, Laura.

Okay, so I was just telling you that this is one of my favorite topics to talk about because it really is infused through everything. And you guys, we're going to tell you what that is in one second. But when the information on you had come through and when I just like looked through everything, I was giddy to chat about this. And I know that you have this epic book all about boundaries. You guys, this is going to be a really good topic because sometimes, whether you know it or not, boundaries can be one of the main things that you need and they can be completely disguised as other things. So this is going to be really fun. So, Terri, I would love for anyone who may not be familiar yet, which you should be, but if you're not yet, if you would just share a little bit about your journey and how you started doing what you're doing.

So I actually was a talent agent negotiating contracts for supermodels and celebrities for a bunch of years while I was on my own personal journey of self empowerment and realizations. And I got to a point where I was really kind of a, you know, my father considered that I was at the height of my career and decided to go back to grad school. So I went to NYU to become a psychotherapist because I had gotten to the point where I really was like, there's gotta be something more impactful for me that I can be contributing to the world than making, you know, supermodels richer. And hey, I'm not hating on supermodels. I love them. But it just felt like there had to be more. And it was really my own psychological and emotional journey towards more empowerment and more health and more honesty and more authenticity that inspired me to be like, I couldn't even believe what therapy did for my life. Like, and I was like, why isn't everyone in therapy? It's the most amazing thing. So in the end of my career in entertainment, I really did not care about the movie deal or the Pantene contract. I got to a point where I was completely interested and invested in the mental health of my clients. Getting people into rehab, eating disorder clinics, therapy. I was like, you need to get out of here before you start really sucking at your job. And so I went back to school, became a psychotherapist. And that was almost 25 years ago.

Where did the theme of boundaries start to show up in your life that you became so passionate that you were like, there's gotta be a book on this.

Well, I actually was definitely a boundary disaster. So for much of my 20s, for sure, probably into my early 30s, and I didn't realize at the time what it was. And I got into therapy early, and even then it took a long time because as you said very astutely at the top, boundary issues and challenges can present as all these other things. There's so many layers to our boundary knowledge and understanding that it takes a bit to get to them. So in my own therapy journey, I really got to the point of realizing, oh my God, this is the thing that is missing. So I learned to talk true, as I say in the subtitle of the book, I learned to draw better boundaries, understand the difference between being loving and being codependent and all of these other things that were getting in the way of me being able to have healthy boundaries. And then when I became a therapist, I was like, wow, this is an epidemic. That no matter who came into my office, no matter what their presenting problem might have been, I could connect the dysfunctional dots backwards to the lack of this incredibly important skill set that literally, Lori, nobody teaches us, like, not in school, not at home. And as women, if you were raised as a woman, we were particularly given bad intel. So we were raised and praised for being self abandoning codependence. So it isn't even like my clients would be mad, like, why don't I know this? I'm just weak how am I in the same situation or being very self recriminating. And I would be like how could you know what? Not only did nobody teach you, but that we sort of got the opposite. If you had boundaries, if you spoke up because really, what were the messages in your childhood? Be a good girl. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Turn that frown around. Where's my happy girl? There was this. We were praised for being incredibly generous and self sacrificing, that that's the reality. This meant especially if you had a maternal impactor. So like a mother figure or mother who let's say had the disease to please or was a people pleaser. Your parent doesn't have to like give you a memo on how to do it. We just watch and do so. There were so many reasons why my clients didn't have the skills and I knew that I got them on my own through my own hard work. And that was the beginning of me really becoming positively obsessed with teaching as many human beings on planet Earth as possible. And so I started a course about five years ago called Boundary Bootcamp and that's where I really beta tested every single thing in the book. I did surveys before and after every single graduating class to learn. Does that really help? Maybe it doesn't. If it doesn't, take it out and don't put it in the book. So that's how I got here. Oh, so good.

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Okay, so I think I want to start with for anybody listening, what were some of the things themes that you just kept seeing show up initially that you were like this is a boundary problem. Is the first thing that pops in your head with something just reoccurring in someone's life that maybe it doesn't appear that way but it you know that.

It is saying yes when you really want to say no. Oh yeah. Over giving, over functioning, doing a crap ton of emotional labor, being in relationships that are, I call them repeating boundary realities where you're like wow, different person but same dysfunctional crap. How is this happening? So much of those are boundary issues and something down to as simple as not sharing your preferences with the people in your life. Being like, you know me, I'm easy, breezy, no fuss, no muss, like it's a badge of honor to have no opinion or to not want one thing over another that the belief is our preferences are somehow a burden on the other person. So those are a couple that come to mind.

Oh, so good. Right? When you said that last one, too. I mean, I can identify with every single one of them. I'm sure everyone on here can for the most part. But that last one that you had mentioned just reminds me so much of when I was in my just even late teens, early 20s, when you start, you know, really dating. And I remember just wanting to be the cool girl, which meant that wound me up with the worst guys because I had no. Everything was fine and no opinion on anything. Oh, that didn't bother me. Even though internally I was, like, turning into a jealous, raging freak, you know? So, yeah, that would take a little while for me.

And saying things like, it's all good. You know me, I'm easy. So I'm always suspect. If I have someone who is always convincing themselves it's all good. I cannot stop myself from saying, but is it, like, why? Why does it all have to be good? That's not life. It's literally saying, don't consider me, don't worry about me. I'm not going to require you to put in a lot of effort. I'm going to do a lot of work. And what does that say about value and about worthiness and about aren't we worth. Aren't we worth it? Aren't we worth someone going out of their way or caring what we want? The way that I break down boundaries to make it as digestible as possible, because I think that there's a lot of confusion and that it can be very heady and seem very overwhelming, like, oh, there's so many things, but really there's not. So you can look at them. I mean, one way of describing it, it's like your. Your personal rules of engagement, the way it's okay to interact with you and the way that it's not. If we visualize a house that has, like, a white fence around it, that's an obvious boundary. If there's a sign that says no trespassing, you know, trespassers will be, whatever, you're going to get in trouble. We go, oh, don't step over that boundary. Because if so there will be this consequence. Personal boundaries, a little different because they're invisible, because they're individual to each person and because they change as we grow. But they're really there to deepen our relationships and to protect our self esteem, right? To protect our ability to relate to ourselves in a high way. Because if we allow people, anyone, to just do what they want and but more basic than that, it's you personally, let's say you, Lori, knowing your preferences, your desires, your limits and your deal breakers and then having the ability to communicate them with ease when you so choose. That's them. Just your desires, your preferences, your limits and your deal breakers. Because we all really know them. We just don't think about them because we're making everything okay a lot of people. And listen, disordered boundaries come in lots of flavors. That's one where your boundaries are too porous, right? Too malleable. They can also be too rigid. And I actually have this great boundary quiz. It's just 13 questions long. It's just boundaryquiz.com if you want to take it and it gives you there's like seven archetypes to show you where. When you're out of balance, how does that look in your boundaries? How does that show up in your boundaries?

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I definitely was the person who didn't have any boundaries. And it was showing up just emotionally and physically, like never comfortable ever in my body and always feeling like I was disowning my own self and voice and authentic self. And it can make you feel quite crazy and it can if I'm trying to think of when I really did not have any boundaries. I was so resentful of everyone, like so angry with people, just. And it was all from me, you know, saying yes and not being willing to speak my voice or my truth. And it was out of a lot of fear. So I'd love to chat around is if I go back to thinking what it was. It was just so much fear of not fitting in or being liked or thinking that or having people think that I was selfish or being talked about. That was really huge for me. So how do we start dealing with this? Because some people might be sweating right now when they're like, oh God, I'm going to learn how to set this boundary that I know I need to have with my mother in law or my mom or whatever, sister, friend, job, boss, work, all the things. So how do we start coping with the first thing that pops up, which is the fear?

Well, you made a great point in saying you recognized that you were filled with resentment. So when people say to me, I don't even know my boundaries, I don't know where they're bad, I don't know where they're good, I always say. But you do because you can quickly do a resentment inventory. And I promise you that every point that you stop at where you're like, I really resent my sister right now. You know why? And we will be able to really identify. Probably there's a need that's going unmet. We know that. But most likely it's a boundary issue. It's something you either haven't said, you haven't spoken up, you haven't told the truth about something, you haven't made a simple request about something, as I call it. It's like there's that creates feelings and the fact that your level of resentment sort of pushed you to make changes. For a lot of people, they want to make those changes, but they don't know how. So let's just start with stopping the auto yes is a really gentle and kind of simple place to start. If you're someone who feels compelled to give an auto yes to others when they ask you to do things, we're just going to do like 48 hours where you cannot agree to anything. I mean, unless it's like being on Oprah or something, but like that you know you want to do. But no. No immediate answers because this does two things for us. We buy time to think about what we want to make a mindful choice. Sometimes we say yes to things that we don't want to do out of devotion, out of love. Our partner really wants to do it. If it's a mindful saying yes when you'd really rather say no, that's not a boundary issue. That's being in a long term relationship. Right? So we're getting clear that those things are not the same. The auto yes. And any automatic reaction someone wants something from you, you immediately feel compelled to be like, yes, okay, I'll do it. We're not doing that. When you buy time, you think about it, you can come back and then I'll give you a couple of things you can say if you know that it's a no. So in the moment when the person's like, so are you in for Sunday? You can say, thank you so much for thinking of me. I need to check my calendar. I appreciate you me being on your mind. And I don't know, you can also say, hey, I have a 24 hour decision making policy, so I'll let you know tomorrow. You could straight up just tell people. I don't make instant decisions. When someone says to me, but I need to know now, I'll say, then it needs to be no, because I need time. And I don't care what it is. I don't make an instant decision because I haven't thought about it. If the house is not on fire, you actually don't need an answer now, you just want one, which is not the same. So poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency for me. So allow yourself time. So you have a couple of things you'll say, even just maybe is okay, or I'd love to think about it, let me get back to you tomorrow or Wednesday or whenever you want to get back. And then when you come back, if you know it's a no. You can again, we can always start it and be pleasant. We can always be kind unless a little more heat is required because of the situation. Great, we can do that too. But I just want to like bust the myth that having boundaries has anything to do with being caustic or mean or rejecting or unfeminine or all these things. Like it's gotten this bad rap, which is just not true. You can do it with ease, grace, kindness, and when appropriate, love every time. Once you learn the process and you can. So let's say you're going to go back and say no, you go back and say, Betty, thank you so much for thinking of me. We can't make it on Sunday. When we tell Betty we can't make it on Sunday, I want everyone to be super clear that we don't need to write a dissertation about our no, we don't even need to give a friggin reason because you know what? Sometimes I just don't want to and why isn't what I want. Listen, if it's a VIP in my life again, of course we make concessions and if my husband really wants to do something, I really like him and I really am invested in his happiness and if it'll make him happy, I'll do it. Usually. Whatever the thing is. But what we're really talking about with disordered boundaries is we're talking about really having no delineation between high priority people and lower priority people.

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So you have a VIP section in your life. But what most people don't know is that you made the guest list. You're the only bouncer, and if you don't put up the rope, anyone comes in and feels entitled to your sunshine, your bandwidth, your energy, your time. And we have not deterred them by not being honest about how we feel. I mean, I start the book basically saying I was a bridesmaid eight times in my 20s and four of those ugly dress experiences. I should have politely declined. I couldn't even believe the person asked me. They're like, you're like my best friend. I was like, oh my God, I wouldn't even have invited you to a housewarming party. How could I possibly be your best friend? But I felt like, embarrassed, ashamed, ungrateful. They had chosen me for this important thing and I was like, okay, I guess I would not do that now. But you know, I was 25. You don't know. But those are painful Experiences that you know, the gift that just kept taking. Because then you're going to back to the wrap parties and you're paying for ugly dresses and you're going to dinners and you're doing all this crap you really don't want to do. So did I make whatever point I was making?

Yes, and then some. And I loved every single word of it. So, okay, I love this. So let's go back to doing the work around after you say the no without explaining. Because I've had that, like, free falling backwards, like, somebody please help me. Did I make them feel bad? Oh, my God, what if they're. What are they thinking now? Like, doing the work around, letting it be okay with whatever they think on the other side to help me.

Yes, I'm gonna help you right now. Anytime you think or say, I don't want them to think, I don't want them to feel, I want you to realize you're not on your side of the street. So I'll ask you to back up and get back to your side of the street. Because here's the thing. We only have control over what we say, what we think. We can process what we feel, but we cannot control that. And that desire is a really codependent desire. If we think about what codependency is, right? It is being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the circumstances of the people in your life to the detriment of your internal peace or your financial physical well being. Because, listen, we're all invested in the happiness of the people we care about. Codependency means. And if you are listening and you're like, I'm not sure, maybe, but that's just being nicer. I'm just a lover. Like that. If your best friend comes to you and she's in a jam and she has a situation right now, I want you to check your urgency. Did you suddenly get really activated? Did you suddenly start Googling things for your bestie to do? Do you have ideas? Are you giving advice? Did her problem inside, like, emotionally, literally just become yours too? Fix. If the answer to that is yes, then you know that that's a codependent response. And that is just inherent and that is just disordered boundaries and overstepping your boundary. Because here's the thing, your heart may be in the right place, but true talk. You don't know what your friend needs to do. Like you actually don't. And your friends don't know what you need to do. A more healthier response is, how can I best support you right now. What do you think you should do? What is your gut? Tell me more about the situation. Let's suss it out. If they want to brainstorm it, let's say, rather than because my younger self, I mean, I was immediately jumping to solutions and taking it on. Not just like, I have a thought, but like, I called four people, I sent out three emails. I like, I'm taking action on your behalf. You haven't really asked me to, but I was so anxious about their life being a dumpster fire in this moment that I just wanted it to stop so that I could retain my inner peace. So their situation, when you're codependent, heavily impacts how you feel. And I felt like I was a bad sister because I wasn't going to save this one or a bad friend, like in the beginning. So really longest way possible around the barn. Back to your question of, like, what do we do with the feeling if we have said no, let's say, or set a limit or set a boundary that someone else didn't like, what do we do with those feelings? Because we're going to be uncomfortable. So in the book, I teach you that of course you're going to be uncomfortable because it's new and we don't want people to be mad at us and we love them and it's scary, but we just commit to not taking anything back for 48 hours. Just the desire to take action to soothe our anxiety. We just want to do something because it will actually, it will discharge anxiety, but it will keep a dysfunctional pattern going. And so it really is. Will take more strength to do nothing. Because let's say your friend says, you know, Laurie, I'm really bummed because you said you would do this thing on Sunday and now you changed your mind. I'm really bummed. You can say, I see that and I'm really sorry that you're bummed. And yet I really know my limits and I really can't do Sunday. And I still love you. And I'm sorry that you're disappointed. I see that you are. But I have to do what I know is best for me because I have this huge thing on Monday and there's no way I'm going to have enough time to do them both. So I'm sorry I miscalculated, calculated. And I know you're disappointed, but we can not do the thing on Sunday and then mess up the thing on Monday that we have going on. But it's hard for us to have those conversations and the More you do it, the easier it gets. So the very beginning and the way that I walk you through it in the book, because it's a book and a workbook all in one kind of is everything are small steps. We start with low priority people. If you get the wrong meal, send it back nicely. Let's stop being more concerned about the way the waitress feels than we do about getting what we ordered. You can do it with ease, with kindness, with humor. But what I find with my clients is that they'd be like, oh, no, I'm just eating it, it's fine. I can't. I don't want to get her in trouble. I don't wanna. So maybe that's not a good example. But talking about being out in the world and it's going to be easier to do it with your hairdresser than it is with your mother in law. So we always start with sort of lower priority people being very mindful. And every single chapter has mindfulness exercises to bring to mind. How often do you. Are you an auto advice giver? Right. How often do you say yes when you want to say no or make up excuses for other people's bad behavior so we can avoid a boundary conversation? Right. Do you ever do that? Somebody acts really badly and you're like, you know. But I know it's the fourth quarter and they're always really stressed at this time of year, so all right, they blew up. But I don't. They really didn't mean it. It's not a big deal. Just setting yourself up for more blow ups in the fourth quarter. All right?

It's a crazy time of year. You're busy, you're making yourself busier with.

The holidays on top of a crazy.

Schedule that feels insane. I know because I'm in the same spot as you and you'll find me walking around my house talking to myself saying, lori, go drink water. Take care of you. If you don't feel good, it's probably because you haven't had enough water. And it's cold out, you guys. That means we're probably dehydrated. And one of the first signs of dehydration is hunger and fatigue. So go drink your water right now. Put a stick liquid IV in. Because it contains five essential vitamins, more vitamin C than an orange and as much potassium as a banana, it has the optimal ratio of glucose, sodium and potassium, delivers water and nutrients into your bloodstream. It's the perfect balance to help you hydrate more quickly and effectively than water alone. So go Grab your favorite Liquid IV flavors nationwide home at Walmart. Or you can get 25% off when you go to liquid I.com and use code happy at checkout. That's 25% off anything you order when you get better hydration today using promo code happy@liquidiv.com Go drink your water. I promise you you're going to feel better. Put a stick of Liquid IV in there. You're going to thank me because it tastes better and it's going to make you drink more.

Let's get back to the show. So that was one of the motivators when I started setting boundaries was this familiar pattern of knowing that if I didn't do something, it just would repeat itself over and over and over again. And I just saw it literally everywhere. And I was like, something's got to give. Because it's like I woke up one day and I literally felt like I wasn't living my own life. Like it was just, you know, you're at the beck and call of every.

Single person and basically hating them all. Kind of hating them all for sure.

High key, hating them all for.

But now.

So I think of that too. I'm like, if I really loved this person, I would have a boundary. And that's how I can show them that I love them is by having a boundary so that I can allow myself to love them. And it's that realization too, that it's not their fault if I'm not saying how I feel.

You're so right, though. Can I just say about the love thing that you're so right, that it is quote unquote, easier in the short run not to have these conversations. It's more courageous, takes more energy. But it really is love. Because when you think about it, if we continue in our life to say yes when we want to say no, A our yes can't be trusted because either we do it resentfully, we bail out in the last minute. Wow. I suddenly got a migraine because I knew I never wanted to do that thing from the beginning. This creates conflicts too. But also, people know I can name my friends right now. I won't, but I could who are yes. People who are like, yeah, sounds great. Sounds great. And if I say to my husband Vic, like, oh, so and so said they're in for whatever, he's like, okay, and what does that mean? I'm like 50% chance she's going to be there. There's a 50% chance. So that means your yes can't be trusted. Also means Your no can't be trusted. Which. What does that mean? Emotionally, you kind of can't be trusted to tell the truth, to be honest. And the biggest tragedy in all of this that I've seen, and I've seen many women who've had decades of this behav behavior is that how can anyone authentically love you, like, for real, if you never allow them to authentically know you?

Million percent so true. In friend groups and relationships, everything, like, I see it happen all the time in girlfriend groups because I do a lot of work with women and friends and all of that type of stuff. And I see it always happen that there's a falling out somewhere because people are never speaking about their preferences or putting a boundary in place or, hey, when you show up late to every single call that we do or to every, you know, business thing that we have, or we, you know, they didn't have a contract in place or even amongst friends, it's like it's a whole lot of people never speaking their mind or expectation or letting someone know where something went wrong. Do you see that more in women and friends? Now, I know this isn't everyone, but I watch it very differently in my husband's friend groups. Like, they speak differently, they operate different. I know this is not everyone, but this is what I've seen in my life. And then with women, I just notice, especially I was born in the or, I was raised in the Midwest, which is just very, like, passive. And then we'll talk about you behind your back. But what do you see from women to men with kind of this, like, falling out of friends and relationships?

I'm way more of a female empowerment expert, and most of my experience has actually been women or gay men. And I think there's more similarities in those groups than there are women and straight men that I know of, where I do a lot of things in particular about female friendships and boundaries. Because I think that you have hit the nail on the head, obviously, with your experience that it's really difficult to tell the truth. And we've been taught not to. And yet what we can't do is we're not powerful enough to stop what happens inside, how it changes our feelings inside. So we can choose to not talk about it, to not say, hey, Betty, when you're late. It really disrupts the meaning. I'd like to make a simple request that you really put in an effort to be on time. I know it's not your thing, but for this thing, I'd like you to make a special Dispensation to work on being on time because it's distracting the rest of us. And my fear is that it's going to create a lot of resentment within the group, which I wouldn't want because it's such a great group. So saying that now the onus is on Betty to get herself there on time rather than every person in the group waiting for Betty to be late and she's going to be, and looking at each other and being like, of course, tick tock. Pointing at their watches and whatever. Like, we almost come together around the dysfunction, but we've been taught that it's, like, rude to be direct or that it's mean. And you're like, what is meaner than talking about Betty behind her back? Like, so my feeling is, you can change all of that if you have this. But I've seen it so much. And I've also seen women get to the point. I can't tell you how many speeches I've given. And women will ask a question they need to end a dysfunctional friendship. And I will literally say, so have you talked to them about what your issues are? And like, no, she's impossible. I can't. It's just going to be a total crap show. I can't do it. I'm like, okay, so you want help from me to literally kill the friendship. You would rather just write a goodbye text before have a conversation. And sometimes these are friendships for 15 years. And I'm like, I would invite you. How about we come up with some dialogue to have the conversation you really need to have? Because, you know, we repeat what we do not repair. That's a Christine. I think her name is Langlyn o' Blauer or something. Anyway, not my quote, but an amazing quote because it's so true. And you had said before, like, you'd see these repeating patterns. That's exactly. So you can cut off from Betty. There'll be another Betty, because you know who is the common denominator and all the relationships and all the circumstances of your life. Life. You. So wherever you go, there you'll be with your unresolved crap. And we can only talk it out or act it out. So if you're not talking it out, you're definitely acting it out. Because we don't have a choice as humans. We're not. We can't be like, I'm not going to let that affect me. No, it just went underground. It's still affecting you. It's just affecting you in this covert way that you don't even understand why you're so mad at the mailman when you're really mad at Betty. Right? We're just displacing the crap out of our aggression. You know what I mean?

Oh, my God.

So true.

Okay, so we're about to have the conversation with Betty. We have now seen where we need to have, like, the conversations. Maybe we started with kind of the low hanging fruit. Like you said, we're in practice, and now we've got this blaring one of this best friend for our whole life who is like, we're ready to send the goodbye text. But how do we start that conversation? Because I don't know about you, but when somebody comes to you and they're like, we need to talk, like, you're like. Like, what is this about? So how do we start that?

It's so funny that you say that, because I was gonna say. I'll tell you what you don't do is say, we need to talk. It's the worst because I'm already scared.

Yeah, I'm not showing up to that, by the way.

Oh, my God. Never coming to that talk, quote, unquote meeting.

Never.

I think that it's most impactful to be as neutral as possible. I teach you in the book how to create a proactive boundary success plan. So there's some steps that you take. One is you have to clear identify what your problem is. Right? You can't just be like, this friendship doesn't work anymore. Bye. If you're thinking you want to actually perhaps heal the friendship or that if you told the truth, things could change enough that you might want to actually stay in the friendship. So I think we have to get really clear about what do I want? So in this scenario with Betty, what does she want? Does she want to just end the friendship, or does she actually want to tell her that she's sick of her not pulling her weight and not paying for things or whatever, we'll make up whatever her thing.

Oh, I'm just going for the harder one. Well, I don't know if it's harder for everyone, but yeah, she wants to end the friendship.

Okay, so this is my $0.02 on that. People will disagree. I don't care. I'm a therapist. I've got my opinion. You know how people love to be like, you have to have all of the important conversations ever in person. You actually don't. So if you think you need to do it in person, that's your call. Do not do it in person. If this person is Ever, ever been violent, drinks too much is provocable in a way that might make a scene embarrass you, throw something at you in public, like you know who you're dealing with. And if you really are to the point of wanting to end a friendship, me personally, the likelihood that I'm going to want to meet them for a mocktail or anything is zero. So I think writing it is just fine. So you can say, hey, Betty, we've been friends for a long time, and our friendship hasn't been healthy for a long time. We have grown apart. So I'm letting you know. And here's the thing. You only need to do a Dear Betty letter if Betty is, like, trying to pursue this more close friendship or she wants something from you. Because what I really find with my therapy clients is that we'll do something, which I call it an energetic hit list. Well, let's say you really have outgrown Betty, where she's become quite toxic. We're going to put her on the energetic hit list, and we're going to sort of cut cords with her emotionally energetically, wish her well, bless and release. And that may sound weird, but there's something very powerful about what we think and the way that we feel. And so much of the time, my clients who want to break up with other with friends, they're the ones who are keeping it going out of guilt. They were the one who always reached out. So they're giving mixed signals to the person that they really would like to terminate a friendship with. So I always say, listen, starting right now, stop doing any work in the friendship if it's not one that you. Well, she'll be mad if I don't reach out. Okay, no, see, you're in a dysfunctional relationship where it's totally codependent that you're anticipating her reaction or her response. And also, we want at least ourselves, we need to be acting within our own integrity, aligned with our goals. So if we don't want to be close to Betty, we should stop reaching out to her and asking her how her Sunday dinner was. Right, that makes sense, because those things are confusing. So my feeling is we do the energetic hit list so that we're being clear in our mind. And then if you have to have the conversation, you can tell the truth. We've grown apart, and I find the friendship is more stressful, and I feel like we're harming each other rather than being sisters or being girlfriends. And I love what we've shared, and I believe that that's over. I wish you the very best.

Anything around. Because especially. Let's just. Well, if you're on the phone and you are having the conversation and sometimes you're getting that hit to like, just say, oh, it's sometimes when you, you know, when you're in person or when you're talking to someone that you've had this lifelong relationship with, you can get sucked in, in that moment and be like, maybe it's not that bad. Are there any things that you say to yourself or set the intention to make sure that you follow through with the outcome that you desire?

When you do the steps of the proactive boundary success plan, we're really hitting that stuff first. So you're not going to be having a conversation with this person on a whim. You've thought about it, you've looked at your past interactions with them. Because a lot of women, they're like, I tried defriending her before and it didn't work right. I'm like, it didn't work because you didn't stick with it. And we literally, we are the keepers of our time. And besides money, what. What is the most valuable, you know, coin you're ever going to spend is your time. This is the thing that we have a limited amount of. I mean, and money too, for some people. But time is really important, so you have to value it in the moment. You might feel nostalgic. You're going to have mixed feelings. Because the lifelong friendship. There was a time, I call it the historical handcuffs. Because it's like, we stay in these relationships that we, we wouldn't choose now. And if they're distant and not negatively impacting your life, then there's really no need to have a Dear Betty letter, right? We don't need to. But if the person really wants more from you than you want, if they're like, well, why don't we go on a couple's vacation together? Like things where you're like, PS, never. I'm never wanting to do that. Then you know, she's clueless. That person does not know how you feel. And you can just say that the friendship doesn't work for me anymore. And I wish you well. I will remember all of the good times and I wish you well, but I don't have the bandwidth and we've grown apart. That's it. And you don't have to give any reasons, but you do need to for yourself, like giving context and convincing. Let's just be clear about the difference between those two things. I think what I Just said was giving context. These are the reasons why I no longer want to put in the amount of effort that you would like me to put into this relationship. Convincing someone is like needing them to get on board with your reasons and thinking that you have sound reasons for doing what you're doing. We don't need anyone's permission to make the decisions that we need to make in this life. And that friend can. She can twist it and say, you're like this or you're like that. The reality is, you know the truth within you. And most old friendships, let's just say unless the person has a drug or a drinking problem or generally speaking, they will fade away if you put that person on your energetic hit list and just send them love. But, like, bless and release, cut the cords, see them sort of moving on, because you probably both already have moved on in a way, but they don't want to. You'd be shocked at how much of the time that makes a difference, because it's our energy that is also keeping the person close to us. If we're keeping business as usual, even though we don't feel that way.

I think that some of the biggest challenges are just what happens afterward. And it's also so freeing on the other side. So if some of you are listening and you're on that front end of that, what feels often like a tidal wave on the other side, it is just pure freedom and calm and peace. But it does take a while. Like you said, it takes so much practice. This, because I definitely in my mid-20s, had some falling outs with some people where I spoke really clearly, like, ended up. These were my first, like, boundary conversations. And it was like a couple years of dealing with just some backlash of what their thoughts and opinions and, you know, whatever that was. And that's really hard to live with. And that's hard to not want to go back and kind of like, feel like you need to protect your reputation or. And just sit and allow it. But I will say that I did a lot of work around that. There was a lot. And I know in your book probably has so many incredible tools to work through that and. But I will say that I feel like taking the energy away from it even now. It has been like, they may still feel that way, but for the most part, it almost feels like everything is dissolved and they're not doing anything crazy. I feel great peace with it.

Yeah. And how they feel. You know, Laura, part of it is that it's also dialing back into. People are coming from their Own projections all the time. You know, Don Miguel Ruiz says in the four agreements, like, one of them is, you know, people are, I used to say, coming from their own nightmare, because that is kind of what it is. It's like they've got their own lens, and so they've had their own experience. It's just like, why I don't think that taking advice from friends is always the greatest. Having friends support you is always the greatest. But unless your friend can really separate your friend who just got divorced and you're having an argument with your spouse, they're going to immediately be like, because their husband cheated. Like, I don't know. I mean, listen, I never expected Bob to do it. So could be, you know, you're like, please stop projecting your infidelity onto my marriage.

Yeah.

So I think that what other people think and why they think it so much of the time really has nothing to do with us, even if it's directly pointed at us, because they've interpreted it through the lens of their life experience and their wounds and their injuries. And so I'm really big in my own life on blessing and releasing. If my heart was in the right place, if I did the best I could with what my consciousness I had at the time, I have to expect that that is good enough. And if they're holding onto it, that is their side of the street. They want to talk about it, they can approach me. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. But when I question, like, I wonder what they're thinking, the moment my mind goes there at all, I immediately snap myself back to get back on your own side of the street. Because what other people think of you is none of your frigging business. Because 98% of it has nothing to do with you. And if you know you did something wrong, make amends, right? This is what healthy guilt is about. Right? Guilt says, I think I did something wrong. Shame says, I think I am monumentally something wrong. Right? They're two different things. But it's okay to feel guilty, but not the way that people do when they set boundaries. Boundaries. They feel so much guilt initially. If you haven't been a boundary setter, if you haven't been a limit setter that you are so worried and you feel so bad, especially if it's with a maternal impactor, a mother, a father, siblings, family of origin, man. I mean, these are the people we've been doing this dance with the longest. They're like the original. They're the OG dance troupe of our dysfunctional boundaries so, yeah, we go back there and it's like, you might be super evolved on the outside. Go home for more than four days, and you're like, am I in sixth grade? Like, what is that?

Oh, girl, I am at home. And it's been two weeks, so I can actually just hold up conversations right now. And I love them and they know, so I am. It's so funny you say that with business, with friends. I am like, the queen. So clear. Like, I feel so proud of myself. I feel so clear, energetic, wise. Just smooth, smooth sailing. I can handle what comes my way. Family. Right now, I literally don't know. And I hear this sentence as I'm saying it. Like, I just feel like I can't please anyone by trying to please everyone, by seeing everyone the right amount of time. And I'm sure they know this because I kind of talk about it, but I think there's also some conversations there.

That need to be had.

And I will fully admit I'm making up conversations in my head right now, now that they're probably not even thinking, even though I think. I think, you know, then you go down that rabbit hole.

So.

So, yes, absolutely. You go home and you're. We're here, like, with a whole month, maybe two.

So. Right. That's. So we got to get to talking. True. Yeah. Asking questions. Right. Like, instead of when I feel like I've got, like, a conversation that I made up in my mind about someone, I will just say, hey, is everything okay? You see? Seem a little angry. I'm not sure it could be me. And so I have to be honest and say seven times out of 10, it could inspire them to say what they couldn't to say. Well, I did think that you would make the Friday night thing at Betty's house, and I was really sad that you didn't, because I told my friends you were in town and you didn't come, and it made me look like a jerk or whatever. And then you're like, okay, I'm sorry, and I can't do everything. So I love you and I'm sorry that you were disappointed, but I don't want it to be between us. I would rather have this quick conversation than spend the next six weeks feeling some weirdness between us that we could just handle right now. Because here's the thing, Laura, and you know this. It's okay that people don't like everything that we do. It's okay to choose what we want to do. We make sacrifices and compromises mindfully when we so choose Choose. But we cannot be people pleasers and suffer from the disease to please and create our best lives. I promise you that. Disordered boundaries. In this way, this becomes the inadvertent glass ceiling for ourselves of how successful we can be, because it brings us down. Because in that part of our lives, we're not being authentic. And even if it's only this much, but we're not. And so part of it is seeing every opportunity that you have to talk true, to be honest, to just ask questions, to say what you see, to say, I know, mom, you're disappointed that I'm not going to do this, but I have a big presentation the next day, so I'll see you Sunday. Okay? And I'm sorry that I can't do it all, but I can't. And I know myself and I know that I need to sleep and I know that I need to prepare. So I appreciate you trying to understand, because maybe they don't, but I would appreciate them trying to understand. And then all of that bandwidth that we're walking on, Eggshells. Like, my motto is, like, no more eggshells anywhere. No more nobody, nobody. Just no more eggshells. Because it's. It's not living, it's being like a spy. Right? It's like we see everything that's happening in the room. We notice the sub. I mean, I do the subtle changes in someone's expression. And then I'm like, oh, wait, is that a problem? What's going on? What do I need to do to stop that from happening?

Yes.

And to reel back, because so many of your listeners I know for sure are empaths and highly sensitive people. Creative types, entrepreneurs. It's like, this really is our superpower, but only if we have healthy boundaries. Only if you are a boundary boss. Is your empathic nature your superpower? Because if not, everyone gets a piece of you and you're left depleted and exhausted.

So good. Well, I'm going to be having a conversation or three, and I am. It's crazy how if anybody is like, kind of in the. The more work that you do with this, the more you almost clean it up so much that it becomes such, like, a crazy waving red flag or this prod that's poking you that you just want to keep it clean. Because I feel so free in every other area of my life. And we'll kind of end on this thought I would love to hear a little bit about. I truly feel like boundaries make room for your dream, for your blessing, for the relationships you actually want. So many people right now think it's either a discipline problem or a life being too chaotic and busy problem. Or, you know, the reason why they can't go for the thing that they want to go for because they have no time or energy. That's a huge one. I have no energy. And I'm like, it's because you have 27 windows open about all of the things that you're resentful about or that you, you need to fix or whatever that looks like. Looks like. So is there anything in your book that can kind of talk about how boundaries make room or is there anything you want to leave people with?

Just the thought that there's nothing wrong with you and you wouldn't feel bad about yourself if you couldn't be fluent in French because you really wanted to be. You would know you needed to learn. You would know you needed to start small. This is the exact same thing. So I really feel like I've brought it down to super bite size steps to take. I have a gift for your audience. We're about codependency. Because even if you don't think you're codependent, I promise you, you probably are a high functioning codependent, as I renamed it. So you can get that at boundaryboss. Me hack happy and you guys can do this. That's what I leave you with. Is that what you think? How you feel, what you want? Like your deepest heart's desire matters. And this skill is the one that will get you there. If you're not there, I promise you this is the one that you need and you can do it. I've taught thousands of women all over the world and you can do it. Boundary Boss, go get.

One of the biggest gifts that you can do for our guest is to go and purchase your book. So because this is, I swear by boundaries, it's literally everything I fully, fully, fully everything that you just said about, you know, this is the one thing that if you do this, it will truly, it will rock your world. It will change your life. You will have the relationships that you want. You'll have the room for everything. You'll feel so free just to move about energetically in the world. You'll get to speak your mind. It's incredible. So, so where's the best spot for us to get your book?

Go to boundarybossbook.com because I also have a lot of really juicy, amazing gifts for you. And I think I probably have the quiz on that page too. But if not, boundaryquiz.com, and then where you have the free gift which is boundaryboss me happy.

You're so amazing. I'm so grateful for this conversation. I love love love that you literally just have gone down every rabbit hole of the layers of boundaries and I can tell that your book is going to be such actionable thing that we can do. I'm so excited I'm getting your book and I can't wait to actually sounds like a workbook as well which is so cool. This work is incredible. I adore you. You're amazing. One of the biggest things that you can do, like I said is go get the book. But also I love to have you see who listened and got major takeaways from you. So what is your Instagram handle?

Just terricole T E R R I C O L e Amazing.

So you guys as always tag her and tag myself and let her what your biggest takeaway was. Maybe there's a conversation that you need to have right now. Let her know how much she helped and until next time everyone earn your happy. Bye. Bye.