876. Neuroscientist Dr. Ethan Kross On How To Control Your Inner Voice And Optimize The Chatter

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In the same way that we learn to talk out loud to people by our experiences with our caretakers initially and later our friends, that's also true of our inner voice. So parents who are listening, caretakers, friends, you all play a role in shaping the inner voice of others.

Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. Today My guest is Dr. Ethan Cross and I was really excited to have him on the show because he has written a book called Chatter and it is all about that voice in your head and training it how to become our ally rather than an enemy. And I know that if you are a human listening to this, which I'm pretty sure I can conclude that you are, that you have that same voice in your head that I did and you probably struggle with it. And it is the main thing that this whole podcast is about is really learning how to tune in and even hear what it is saying subconsciously to us and redefining, renaming, rewiring exactly what it's saying, what it's doing, and how it can help us instead of hinder us. So Ethan Cross is one of the world's leading experts on controlling the conscious mind. He's an award winning professor at the University of Michigan and the Ross School of Business. He's the director of the Emotion and Self Control Laboratory and he's participated in policy discussion at the White House. He's been interviewed by pretty much every single news outlet that you can think of. So this was a really fun conversation. And I also found out that I have been doing some things successfully, which is really good, that he recommended that has truly helped shift my life. So you guys can take some of these tips and you're gonna notice how you can just start to shift right away because once we make that voice a friend, once we learn how to actually talk to it and how to really make it talk to us, you're gonna find that you're gonna start being able to do a whole lot more than you were in the past. And this is, this is my life practice. So you know, this isn't going to be an overnight thing. This is always something that is going to be a practice that you're going to start and keep in your life. So let's get started.

Ethan, I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thank you so much for coming on.

Thanks for having me, Laurie. I've been looking forward to it all week.

So you talk about a topic that I am absolutely obsessed with. We talk about it all the time on this show, so it's so much fun to have somebody who just wrote a book on it. You've been immersed in this. This is probably all you're talking about right now. It's what you study, it's what you teach on. So your book is called the Voice in Our Head and why It Matters. And it truly is everything. I've been so into this lately. Even though we know it. It's funny when you get to another level where you are, like, so incredibly aware that there's actually. Even though you can do the work, it's running your show, even when you think that you are doing all the tools and doing all of the work in the morning or whatever it looks like. I was like, oh, my God, there's another level that it's actually. It can get quieter as you get better. Let's chat about that. What, first of all, made you just really hone in on this topic? Why are you so passionate about it?

Well, the experience actually started in the classroom. I used to teach a class here at the University of Michigan, which is where I work on basically science's greatest hits when it comes to managing your emotional life. And the course is always a ton of fun to teach. And the way it typically works is I assign readings. The students do the readings. They come in. I pepper them with questions. It's all good. They go away, they come back. And we do that for like 10 or so weeks, maybe a little bit more. Then the final assignment each time I teach the class is the students are asked to come with any questions that they have for me. So we switch the roles. And the idea is, look, you've just learned all about what science teaches us when it comes to managing our emotions, to managing that voice inside our head. So what do you want to know before you leave that we haven't covered? And the last time I taught this course, a student raised her hand. She was actually, when she raised her hand, she was. She was kind of upset looking when she did. So she did it very aggressively. And she said, why are we learning about this now? And I had no idea what she meant. What do you mean? And then she went on to say, well, you know, we've learned about, number one, just how powerful the way we think about the world and the way this inner voice works, how that can influence us in all these different domains, negatively often. And we've also learned about all these science based tools we can use to manage it. Why didn't anyone teach us about this earlier on in life, when we were in high school, when we started college, when it could have made a difference. We're leaving now, now and it's all over. And so the first thing I said to her was, you know, fear not, you'll have opportunities to manage your worry and rumination after college. Like I'm pretty certain of that. But, but I didn't have a good answer to her question, you know, so I kind of cowardly way deflected, like use a classic professor move. And I was like, it's a good question what other people think about that. But it really bugged me and so it really motivated me to write this book about what we know about the inner voice. What does it even mean to have an inner voice? Why do we have one? Is it always bad for us? Is it going to be good? And when it morphs out of control when we start worrying and catastrophizing and ruminating, not that I ever do that by the way. Do you?

Never, Never.

Right. You know, what can we do to nip it in the bud to get back to life as we want to be living it? And that was a multi year journey. That was a great deal of fun, informative and I've just been so excited to chat with folks about it since the came out.

I literally love it so much because truly if we can master it, it is life changing. And I'm really, really. It's funny out of all of the things that we do kind of on the show and personal development work and talking about growing your business, it really always comes back to this, Always.

Well, I love that you say that Laura. I completely agree. Actually I talk about this statistic. So if you were to put a price tag on chatter and when I use the term chatter, what I'm talking about is we've got this inner voice, this ability to silently use language to reflect in our lives. That's an amazing tool. It lets us do lots of things like plan for the future and innovate and create. But when we get stuck, like we experience some adversity and we go inside, we try to like think our our way through things but start ruminating and worrying and looping, overthinking. That's what chatter is. World Health Organization recently put a price tag on chatter in the form of anxiety and depression which we know it drives that number was $1 trillion. That was the impact that global economy took from the cost of anxiety and depression. So that, that puts in perspective just how powerful this can impact us in just the work domain, not getting into relationships or health yet. So I think it's a, it's one of the big problems we face as people, as human beings. And you know, the good news is there's a lot of things we could do about it.

You talk about four things that chatter is good for. So you talk about. So you have, okay, let's talk about those. And then we'll dive into kind of the different places that the negative chatter can show up and maybe talk about what we can do about it.

So let's start with the inner voice, right? Which is silently using language to reflect on your life in some way. I think this is an amazing tool of the mind. We should all be very thankful that we have this. And, and I'll walk you through four things it does for us just to make that point clear. Okay. One thing your inner voice does you is it allows you to remember what the hell you need to buy in the grocery store once you get there. And you can't remember. And so what I mean by that is the following. Your inner voice, it's part of our memory system. Like when you repeat something in your head for a short period of time, like what you're supposed to buy. So eggs, cheese, donuts. I don't know why I said donuts, but maybe, maybe I secretly want some right now.

Yes, your inner voice threw that in there.

That's right. That's your inner voice, right? It's allowing you to keep information active in your head. If you were to repeat a phone number in your head, right? Repeat the following numbers right now. 209-05-01.

209-0501.

Now do it silently. Nope. Did you do it? You just use your inner voice. So that is like a super basic function that your inner voice allows you to that your inner voice serves you. Your inner voice also helps you simulate and plan. Before I give a presentation or go on, on, like have a meeting with someone, I will, I'll in my head think about what I'm going to say and I'll actually say it. I'll go for a walk around my neighborhood actually. And I'm not talking to myself out loud. That would be a little strange. But in my head I'm going over verbatim what I'm going to say when I give a presentation from start to finish and then I actually, I hear what the other people are going to say to me, what questions are they going to ask? So I'm game planning out the whole situation. People do this before dates, before interviews, simulating and planning. How vital are those attributes for being successful? That's your inner voice. We use our inner voice to coach ourselves along. Like when I'm exercising in the gym, I will use my inner voice to count down the number of reps I have left. 7, 6, 5. I'll use my inner voice to motivate myself. Like, come on man, you could do it. I'll use my inner voice to utter expletives at the instructor who is telling me to do very painful things in the early morning. That's all inner voice, right? All in. And then finally we use our inner voice to tell stories. Like when things don't happen the way they should, we try to make sense of, well, why did this happen? Why didn't I get this job? Why was I rejected? Why did they get dumped? And we use our inner voice to tell us, to make narratives that help us understand who we are. So this inner voice, it's really, really helpful for us. And that's the positive side. So you don't want to get rid of the inner voice. What you want to do is prevent it from turning into the worry, rumination, negative thought loop that I'm sure many listeners are undoubtedly familiar with. That is not fun, not a fun place to be.

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So whose is it? Where does it come from? Where do we learn it? Why do some people's voices feel like they cannot break the cycle?

So where does it come from? Like so many things in life, it's a little bit of genes, a little bit of experience and a little bit of how those two mix. You know, our parents and caretakers definitely play a role in shaping the way we talk to ourselves, so to speak. The way we reflect on our lives silently. You know, sometimes I catch myself saying things that to myself that my mom or dad said to me when I was growing up. That's because in the same way that we learn to talk out loud to people by our experiences with our caretakers initially and later our friends, that's also true of our inner voice. So parents who are listening, caretakers, friends, you all play a role in shaping the inner voice of others. So that's where it comes from. Why do some people feel so stagnated when the inner voice turns into chatter? I think a big reason is because. Well, let me ask, like, did you have a class growing up that taught you about what the inner voice is and how it works?

No. I think there are some people. Or for me, sometimes it was like, am I a crazy person? Like, does anybody else have this constant looping, like, discussion?

Right. Well, and I think this is true for so many of us. And, you know, I mean, like, billions of people are never taught about what this basic feature of our minds is and how it works. Let's take an analogy here to a car. I'm not a particularly handy guy when it comes to mechanical stuff outside of the brain, right? So I don't know how to fix a car. Like, the car is not working. My wife looks at me, you know, I look behind me like, what do you want? What do you want me to do? You're more likely to fix this thing.

Me?

Yeah. We'll get along just fine. It's very possible to fix a car when it breaks down, if you understand how it works. And one of the things I'm really passionate about and a big reason for writing this book is we do understand how the inner voice works. We have identified lots and lots of tools that can be used to help it work better. So that when you find yourself beginning to spin, hey, here's something you can do to nip that response in the bud. But we don't teach people about this stuff or when we talk about these tools, sometimes a lot of vital information gets lost in. In translations. And so as a result, I think you have a situation where you have a lot of people suffering needlessly, and they just kind of. They wait to stumble on tools in their life, right? Whether it be, oh, I heard this could work. Let me try this, or I did this, and it made me feel better, so I'll keep doing it. And I think we could do so, so much better than that. And that's one of the reasons I'm here today.

Oh, I love it. Okay, so I've got a scenario for you because it's very real for me this weekend. I speak a lot and obviously with COVID there was a bit of a pause there. So I'm a little rusty. So I'm going to go speak this Sunday. So literally, like right around the corner and I feel like. And I don't want to be that person that says no matter what I do, I still get like this crazy rush of nerves, which I guess can be a good thing. Right. But I would love to control my inner dialogue a bit more before I go out because it is something that I love to do. I love to also, like, hopefully leave them with a great feeling, like something that they're going to be able to do after this or whatever that looks like. But for people who are maybe have like performance anxiety. Let's talk about that. Because I think there's a lot of entrepreneurs who are afraid to start their podcast to go on stage and speak. Like, it can be when it becomes physical, that can be really overwhelming to learn to control it. So can you help us with that?

Yeah, this is. I mean, I talk about this a lot in the book. Well, let me say one thing at the start. So I talk about, like 26 different tools that are out there for managing your chatter. And you could put them in different categories, like things you could do on your own, people tools, environmental tools. There's no one perfect one, one tool that works for all people in all situations. Part of the adventure here is in figuring out, hey, what are the unique tools that work best for me? So I'm going to share with you a couple tools that work really well for me in exactly this context. Because I'm a public speaker. I've done it thousands of times. I still get some butterflies before each one, but I manage them pretty well. So I'll tell you what I do first when it comes to the physical jitters, right? The physical stuff, like, you know, you got to go to the bathroom 17 times before you said, right? You ever know that one? Or your hands start sweating and your heart starts racing. Like, one of the reasons why that can get people in trouble is because we experience these responses and we then start interpreting as, oh, no, I'm really anxious. Why am I anxious? Is someone else going to see? And then you start, start looping like, I'm going to screw up. And it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. There's some great research which shows you how you can reframe your physiological symptoms of anxiety in ways that can actually help you perform well. And what it involves doing is just changing the way you think about these symptoms. So, like, wow, my heart's beating really fast now. I've got to go to the bathroom. Holy cow. My body's preparing me for something really important. This is exactly what my body is supposed to be doing right now. Because this is a high stakes environment and, you know, I, I need to be light on my feet up there on stage. Right. I don't want to have to go to the bathroom. And so what you're doing is you're changing the way you interpret those symptoms. You're not interpreting them as a threat, a sign that you can't do something. You're saying that, hey, this is putting me in challenge mode. This is putting me in a position to actually excel here. And that can make a big difference. I actually use this with my, with my daughters. So my daughters are 12 and 8 and they're starting to do various things from public theater to athletics. And like, anyone, they, they get the jitters and I, I just, hey, you know, like there's, oh, daddy, my stomach hurts so bad. And like, there's nothing wrong with you, sweetie. That's your body doing exactly what it's supposed to be. That means you're going to do even better now. And it helps. So that's one simple thing you could do. A couple of other, like, very easy psychological jujitsu moves that you could do when you're waiting to go on stage. Put it in perspective, like, do something that I call zoom out. When we experience chatter, we tend to zoom in really narrowly on the thing that we're bugging, like that we're worried about or ruminating. That's all we could think, like, oh, my God, there are a thousand people here. And blah, blah, blah. What happens when you zoom out? When you broaden your perspective, you find that there's a way of putting this in context that can often be really helpful. So, Lori, is this going to be your first talk on Sunday?

First talk, like, ever, ever, ever?

Yeah, I'm being, I'm being, I'm being. Obviously, I know you've given your talks, but like, so, like, how many times have you given talks in your career?

I don't even know.

You don't even know a lot.

Yeah.

How many times have you struggled in a way that led to your company's implosion?

I mean, beforehand, I think it's happening. But it's never happened. No, it's never happened.

So, like, you know, just zoom out. Look at that bigger picture, which is, look, I'm really nervous here, but I've done this hundreds, thousands of times. It's never Tanked. And once you remind yourself of that, that can help take the edge off. Another thing you could do is something that we call mental time travel. Think about how are you going to feel about this presentation a day after it's done or a week after it's done? One of the things that so many of us have experienced in our lives is we often get really agitated. But then as time moves on, that agitation fades, it goes down and you know, and so. But in the heat of the moment, we often lose sight of that because this thing we're experiencing chatter about is our entire universe. So having the wherewithal to just remind yourself that this is one tiny blip in the grand scheme of your life, that can also be really powerful. So that what I just described is actually my 2am chatter strategy. So every four to six weeks, I don't know why it happens. No scientist does to my knowledge. I will wake up at 2am like wide eyed and be like, oh my God, I cannot believe I said that in an email. And it goes from that to losing my job to then being in prison and dying young before I could see my grandkids. And like instantly, you know what I'm talking about.

I totally know.

Yes, that's the two. So what do you do when that happens? I get this question a lot. What I do is what I just told you. I just think, I say to myself, and I've made a plan, a commitment to doing this. If I get 2am chatter strategy, then I'm going to think about how am I going to feel about this in the morning. The reason that's so powerful for me is because without fail, I always feel better about whatever I'm struggling with at 2am the next morning after I've had my cup of tea and I have my whole brain to think about a problem. It's never as bad as it is at 2am and just reminding myself of that in the moment, it takes the edge off and it lets me enjoy a few minutes of Netflix before I then go back to bed. So that's another thing you can do. How am I going to feel about it down the road? The last really quick thing that I would do in your position is I'd give yourself advice right before. Like, what would you say to your friend who is struggling with this if they were on stage and really nervous and actually use your name to help you do this? Ethan, what are you doing man? You've done this before. Let's go. We call this distance self talk. It involves using your name silently, not out loud in front of other people, but using your name to coach yourself, to advise yourself. One of the things we know about people, we are so much better at giving advice to other people than we are giving advice to ourselves. Like a friend or a loved one comes to me. They don't know what to do. They're pulling their hair out. Very easy for me to give them advice. It's not because I'm a psychologist, right? It's not because I study this. This is a truism of a human condition. When we're not in the problem, we can reason about it much more effectively. What we've learned is you could use this little linguistic trick to take yourself out of the equation, so to speak. When you use your name to coach yourself through a problem, it's almost like you're giving advice to another person. And that can make it much easier to work through some stress as well. So there are a couple of tools you could use.

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So good. And sometimes even just hearing someone say, I don't, I don't know where I figured that out using the name, but I've done it for years. I might have heard it somewhere, I have no idea. But it does work. It's like a weird moment of separation. It almost like makes you take a beat or something, like just gets out of the spiraled focus. I just heard something yesterday. It was like you can't perceive what you're in when you're in it. Like you have to actually get out of it to see what you're doing. That's what it kind of feels like for a moment, like stepping outside of yourself.

We call it a distancing tool and we've done a lot of research on it, like brain research and other kinds of studies to show how it works. Because oftentimes people are like, why would you do that? But what's so interesting, Lori, is that. But people have been using this tool for centuries. Like Julius Caesar, Henry Adams, LeBron James, Jennifer Lawrence. There are instances when under stress, they just seem to switch to using their name. It's almost like something inside us knows that, hey, when we're really struggling, we should start talking to ourselves like our parents would have talked to us. Come on, Ethan, here's you got to do this. And the research shows that it could be really helpful and it's super simple to do. That's, I think another, another important point of the book is that, you know, sometimes getting out of chatter can be challenging. But it doesn't have to always be the case. There are lots of very easy science based solutions that you can implement.

So good. Okay, so let's talk about when you are recognizing a pattern and your life is reflecting a big problem to you. It's here and it's now and it is in your life. Let's say we have either a sick loved one or we're trying to start a new business, or we've lost our job. How do we start kind of coaching ourselves around the worry and the anxiety?

You know, big Picture is you want to identify the different tools, familiarize yourself with the tools that are out there and then you want to start cycling through them. Some tools are going to be really useful to you. You find that tool and then keep using it and layer on some other ones. Like I mean, I think I mentioned what I mentioned the Reinterpret your physiological response, use your name. Temporal distancing brought out. We talked about four tools so far. You can implement those tools in like two minutes or less and they can work together to help you. So start finding the combinations of tools that really work for you. Well, like the things that I use are different from my wife and that's fine. We're all unique, our chatter is unique and so we want to find the best solutions. But let me tell you a little about another flavor of tools that can be really useful and they involve other people. So everything we've talked about thus far are things you can do on your own very easily. There are other self tools out there, but other people I think is a really important category to discuss. It is one of the most valuable tools in my toolbox for managing chatter. But other people can be either like super duper helpful or a tremendous liability. So you really want to know how to harness this tool. A lot of people think that when it comes to chatter, the way to get help from other people is to find someone to express your emotions, to find someone who's willing to listen and hear you out, let you vent. There has been a lot of research on this and what we've learned is venting can be really good for strengthening the friendship and relational bonds between two people. So you and I had a nice chat before we started recording today. I feel like I can go to you now. It feels, you know, if I have some chatter about this industry and that's nice to know that like you're there for me, you're willing to take the time to listen. Here's the problem. If all I do is vent about something to another person so you know, they, you'll never believe what happened. This, this person said this and then they did this. And then you really. And what did you do then? And then I tell you more. If all I do is rehearse those emotional parts of my experience, I leave that conversation feeling really good about my connection with you and our relationship. But I'm often just as upset, if not more upset after the conversation ends than when it started. We call this getting stuck in a kind of co rumination where we're ruminating together about Things. And there's been a lot of research on it showing that it predicts bad things. So if eventing your emotions isn't the solution, then what is? Well, it involves doing two things. The first thing you want to do is you do want to take a little bit of time to share what you're going through with the person you're talking. It is important for them to learn about your experience, for you to feel heard and validated and all that good stuff. But at a certain point in the conversation, the person you're talking to is going to ideally start working with you to help broaden your perspective. Like these other people, they are in the perfect position to help you find the solutions to the issues you're struggling with. So if you came to me with a problem, I would take the time, I'd listen. Oh, yeah, that, that, that Midwestern guest on the show, they seem like a real pill. Oh, my God. And then. But, but, Lori, like, think about how many shows have you done? Like, you know, have you ever had any real negative consequences from an interview? Or. Or, like, well, how do you think you should. You should repair this relationship? Like, what do you think you should do? So, like, I'm just trying to break you out of think, just ruminating about it to trying to find solutions. Now, there's an art to doing this. Well, if you're in the advisor role, like, sometimes my wife will come to me with some chatter, and she'll start. She'll start talking about it, and I'm listening. I'm there for her. And when I see my opening, I'll be. I totally get it. I've got an idea. Can I share it with you? And she'll say, no, just keep listening. And then I'm like, all right, keep going. And then I try again. Other times, she comes to me with a problem, and I listen, and I'm, hey, can I offer you some advice? And I should. Please, like, that's why I'm here. Tell me, what do you think? What should I do? So you want to feel that out. But I think knowing about these two principles, like, listen and then try to broaden perspective. And this is incredibly empowering because what it does is it provides us with a blueprint for getting support for our chatter and for providing it. So I'm really careful about who I talk to about my chatter. Like, I don't go to everyone who I'm close to. They're like, people I love, and they love me. I never talk about my chatter. They're just. I know, they're just going to get me to ruminate about it. They're like three or four people that I really rely on, and they are an invaluable resource. And then the flip side is, if someone comes to me, a colleague, a student, a loved one, I know what to do. I've got a game plan for helping them. I don't have to just wait. And so that's one part of how to harness your relationship with other people in a way that can help you. There's some other things you could do as well, but I think that's a really. At least for me, it's a really important tool.

I love that. It's funny. My husband and I walk every single day, and we always say to each other, we're like, like, do you want me to listen or do you want advice?

That's right. So you agree. I mean, that's fantastic.

Like, you let me know we're going to take that stance and just, you know, like. Because then you're not thinking of, like, all these solutions for them. When you're like, hey, this is just silent time and understanding. And you have a very different, even just like, emotional stature about you when you kind of know from the beginning how you're going to take it as, you know, the person who's listening. Listening.

Absolutely. And, you know, one other important piece here is, like, there's been a lot of research on this. There's a natural progression where immediately after we start experiencing really intense emotions, we do want to just kind of start getting it out. And that satisfies these social and emotional needs that we have. But then we also have these, what we call cognitive needs. These. These needs to work through things and get some closure that are also relevant. And so you want to just honor that progression of how you work through those two stages.

So interesting. Is there. Do you know anything about the difference between, like, how male and female brain works? Because I talk with all my friends, and we typically require longer to talk about it and hear ourselves say it in 10 different ways. And then finally I'm like, okay, I'm super sick of my bullshit. Now I'm ready. Yeah, now I'm read. Like, now I really need the solution. But my husband is like, straight, straight to the point.

Well, here's something that was really surprising that I came across when researching the book, which was the stereotype actually, of, like, this idea that men don't have to talk about, don't need to express their emotions. Actually not true. So they too have this need to Express their emotions. Now, I do think there's some. This is just an intuition. I think that men are more reluctant to do that with women than women are to do that with women. So you do see more co. Rumination among teenage girls, for example, than teenage boys. It does seem to be a particularly. It's like a little Achilles heel, so to speak. In general, we know that women experience more chatter than men. But there are two caveats I'd like to give to that finding. The first is the tools that exist tend to work equally well for men and women. And in case you're wondering, oh, does this mean, like, women have it worse than men? There are plenty of other kinds of issues that men struggle with way more than women. So in the grand scheme of things at all, it all. It all.

We're all even you guys.

That's right. You might. You might be a little bit ahead.

Okay, great. Good to know. All right, so talking about the different tones of voices, because I come from an athletic background, not. Not until I was a bit older, but then really was like, in the world of just fitness and competing and things like that. So I noticed among myself and other people, like, we all go through these phases of these voices of our coach in our head or of our inner voice. And there was a time where for about a year, like, mean coach showed up like, you're a loser. What are you doing? Like, and that was really motivating for a while. I'm not saying that in a good way. It didn't feel good, but it worked. And then all of a sudden, it really stopped working. Like, that was not sustainable. But in that industry especially, and I know that so many people go through this just in the entrepreneurial world, business world, and maybe a lot of men struggle with this, But I think some people feel like they will lose their edge if they're not an asshole to themselves. So is there something that's more sustainable? Is there a way that, like, if that's the voice that you're using, you can actually either. I don't want to say get more done, but just, like, enjoy your life in the process.

Well, you know, I think you. This. You raise a really important issue, and it touches on something that I think is a myth that is out there. This idea that we should always strive to experience positive emotions all the time. Like, no, like, I love positive emotions. Don't get me wrong. Like, it's great to be in a positive state. But human beings, we. We have this ability to experience negative emotions for a reason. Anxiety, depression, Anger, all those, you know, goodies, right. So to speak, in small doses, they can be quite functional. And I raise this because when you talk about how the mean coach could sometimes be really useful, I think that makes total sense. The science supports that idea. I've experienced this personally myself. Sometimes when I scream like, what the hell are you doing? You bleep like, right, Fix this and stop, stop being, you know, bleep, bleep and do this. Right. Like that's pretty harsh. As long as that exists in a small dose and is not an ongoing theme in your life, it can be very useful. Just like when my high school wrestling coach, you know, kind of snapped me into action when I wasn't running fast enough for high school, you know, and doing laps around high school. So a little bit of firmness can be really, really helpful. What we don't want to have happen is having those negative emotions just transform into those loops. That's the difference between experiencing productive negative emotions and experiencing chatter, that ongoing stream. And we definitely, definitely don't want the constant self disparaging statements. So we want, you know, so the mean coach, there's a time and place for the mean coach. We don't want them permanently occupying those, the internal megaphone.

Yeah, I definitely. It's funny, I think my mean coaches shows up very, in small doses like that now where it's more just like, get off your ass. You don't want to feel this way today.

That's right, go.

And sometimes that's really motivating.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I don't want to feel that way. I'm like, why am I choosing this? This is not ideal for your day. Like you don't want to be in this emotion anymore. So let's snap out of it.

I mean, so I will say, I think if we go back to those chatter advisors that we all have and if I think about mine, sometimes the best advice they, they give me is just to like snap out of it. It's, it's the tough love. It's let's get your act together. Like, what are you doing? And that's firm and that's okay. So we don't want to eliminate that.

Okay, Love that. All right, so this is an interesting question. I would love to know, because I feel like that inner voice, you know, I believe in just law of attraction, thinking good things. But also I know I can't be in a great spot all of the time. Like that's actually not healthy to not experience the range. So do you believe in the law of Attraction with, like, your inner voice and what you're thinking and what you're creating and pulling into your life. Like, how do you create kind of opportunities and plan out for the future to attract more attractive things into your life with your inner voice?

Well, I believe in the. Experiencing the full range, the full spectrum of emotion. I like to live in the positive space more than the negative, for obvious reasons. But when I experience the negative stuff, stuff, as long as it's in short doses, I'm okay with that. And that actually like having this understanding that negative emotions are actually useful in small doses. That actually has changed my entire experience because I don't eat myself up if I get a little anxious or sad or angry in terms of how I. I try to, you know, manifest opportunities and things of that sort with respect to life and my inner voice along with that. That, you know, I think there's some general principles out there. I try to always, you know, do good work, not phone it in, help other people whenever I can. I think that there's. That feels good, it helps everyone. And I think that can pay lots of dividends too, though it's not the primary reason. And, you know, for me, I've always been motivated to do work that has the potential to help people in some way. And so I'm always asking, you know, how is this new opportunity going to help me achieve that kind of goal? And I found that as long as I stay aligned in pursuing that goal, good things have tended to happen.

Do you journal or meditate or visualize? How do you kind of like get your inner voice in check into a good place for the day?

I don't journal, though. It's a very effective tool for many. I've periodically meditated. It's not a consistent practice, actually. When I was five years old, for my birthday, I thought I was going to get like a new toy, but I got a mantra from my dad. So, yeah, it was not what I was expecting. Thanks. Dad. Went to the Transcendental Meditation center in New York City, and they told me that if I practice really hard, I might be able to even like, yogicly fly and all that. I was like, whoa, this is crazy. So I've had a lot of experience with meditation. I think it's great. It's a tool amidst many of the others, but I don't do it regularly. I do walk a lot, often in green spaces, and I talk a little bit about this in the book. There's great research which shows how going for a walk in a green space can really help restore your attention and broaden your perspective and really just help you home in on what is important in the big picture. So that's one tool that I engage in quite frequently. And I always ask myself, how is what I am doing? How does it link up with what I want to achieve in life? It's easy to just kind of fall into the rabbit hole of work. And then, you know, I think you find that the things you're doing don't connect with the bigger picture goals. So I'm constantly calibrating, asking myself each day, like, how is this relevant to what you want to achieve in the next week, month, year, so to speak.

God, it's so interesting. It's so easy to lose sight of that target. And I'm such a walker. I literally just want to write a book that's 500 pages. It says how to change your life. And every page will just say, go for a walk.

Walk. I love it.

Literally, it's life changing. But I love that you, I think when you combine walking with a question, like a question about that, like you just did, because we can go for a walk and we can wonder and we can feel really good and it's amazing for you. But then when you combine it with a question about, you know, a desire or something in the future that you want, like, because it is so easy to get distracted, I think we're just so around social media and TV and we can convince ourselves that we want something that doesn't actually align with what we want. So I love, love, love your question. Like, does this align with what I want?

Yeah. And it frees up our attention because when we're doing social media and tv, you know, those can be fun in small doses, Right. Or bigger doses maybe.

But they, they've done the Netflix series.

Yes, yes. They consume our attention. Right. So it's kind of like if you've ever tried reading a book when you're worried about something, you read a couple of pages, you don't remember anything you've read.

Yeah.

Because the worry is consuming it. So. So the TV can consume it or the social media can. When you go in nature, it allows your mind to just be free of those strong pulls. And that allows us to free associate. It allows us to have new ideas. It's putting yourself in a position to problem solve and be inspired and to innovate. I can tell you that whenever that when I was writing the book, it was one of the most difficult things I've ever done professionally. And it was just an Enormous challenge. There are times when I got stuck, like, this story isn't working. How can I find the right story to illustrate the science? Or what do I do about this? And whenever that would happen, I had a plan. I'd go for a walk. And inevitably, by the end of that walk, I would have some, if not a solution, a game plan for obtaining one. So, you know, that's side effect free. I mean, you know, I guess you could get a sunburn or mosquito bites, but you could prevent those. It's a really useful tool for managing our chatter and for innovating.

Oh, my God. I literally did the same thing when I was writing my book. And how. How funny. Like, how hilarious that you're writing a book on chatter and you're like, dang it, there's chatter.

That's right, that's right, that's right.

You gotta.

That's right.

We teach what we need the most.

I love it.

I talk about this all the time because I need it. Okay. I'm so excited about this. People need this book. Who exactly is this for? Besides everyone.

You know? I think it is for everyone. You know, no matter who you are, we're all victim or vulnerable to overthinking, worrying, ruminating, catastrophizing. So, you know, whether you are a teen, a parent, a CEO, a professional athlete, or anything in between or outside that, I think there are important messages in the book for you.

Like I said in the beginning, you guys, to everybody listening, truly, this is the thing that every time I'm in something new or I have a new project or I start a new company, like, this is always the thing. This is always the thing I'm overcoming. It kind of changes its outfit, like, but it's always here. It's a. It's a new voice. It's a new thing that I have to get over. So I love this. I'm so excited that you wrote this book. So where can we find it? Where can we get it, all the things and also follow you because you have a great Instagram page that kind of gives little doses of ideas about this and from your book as well.

Yeah, you could find it wherever books are sold. So Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, independent bookshops, and on my website, www.ethancross with a k k r o dash s dot com, there are links to vendors, there are some downloads, there's links to social media, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn and all those other goodies.

Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on. You guys definitely go grab this book. It is amazing. You're going to want to gift it to your friends, your kids, all of the people, because that truly is. Like I said, if we can. If we can manage this, you really can get into anything that you want. So thank you so much again, and until next time, earn your happy. Bye, everyone.

Sam.