How To Write Copy That Isn’t “Sales-y” (But Still Boosts Your Conversion Rates) With Writing Coach Kelsey Formost

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If you get your copywriting down, it's like having an entire sales team working for you around the clock in the background for free. So that's why I am such an evangelist about learning to write your own copy.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the show. It's time for another quickie because there's always time to fit in inspiration. And today on the show, there is someone that you're going to want to learn from. If you've been listening, you know that I truly believe that communication, communication is key to amazing relationships. And I think communication is also key to getting people to understand what it is that you do and what it is that you have to offer them. There is no difference between what you're offering and your incredible product compared to somebody who just knows how to communicate it well and market it well. So on the podcast today, I have the amazing Kelsey foremost. She is a copywriting expert, marketing educator, and mental health advocate who helps entrepreneurs find their voice and write words that sell without being salesy, which is what we all want. She's been featured in Business Insider, Glamour, Refinery29, Boss, Babe, and more. You guys, truly, she is such an amazing, linear and fun teacher. Her mission is to demystify the process of communicating with an online audience, helping people feel empowered and inspired every time they need to write or speak about their business and also make money in the process. So, you guys, let's get started on the show. Kelsey, I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thank you so much for coming on.

Oh, my gosh, I am so pumped to be here. Thanks for having me. Let's get into it.

Oh, man, this is so fun. Number one, because I love words. I love words of affirmation. I love reading. I love listening. Obviously, I have a podcast, clearly for you. You guys, honestly, whenever I can chat with somebody about how to be better at communicating because I really firmly believe the world and all of our relationships revolve around how well you can communicate, how open you are, how quick you can communicate, and how much you can also understand other people's communication as well. So I'm really excited to be chatting with you because I think that if anybody has anything they want to put out in the world or they want to start a personal brand or a product, it's like, what is that voice? What are we going out in the world with? How willing are we to, like, evolve and change the voice and really kind of understand even the voice of what's going on in the world? So thank you again for being in my head.

You're echoing everything that I usually start out on podcasts saying, which is the power of words is infinite and it's free 99. And it is also one of the most intimidating things for people to address. People are really nervous for a multitude of reasons to dig deep and A, figure out their brand voice, but B, they don't want to alienate anybody. And it feels scary. Like, writing and words feel intimidating. And so we have to move through that initial fight or flight in order to get to the good stuff. So that's why we're here today. I'm so pumped to be talking with you.

Yay. Okay, well, we can end there. I'm just kidding. So good. Okay, so for you, when did you first know that you were like, oh, I think I'm good with this.

Or when did you first see that.

Trend, too, of like, whoa, words are really important.

Oh, my gosh. Okay, well, first, I want to start with a nerdy statistic that blew my mind and made me want to actually become, instead of just a writer of narrative stories, a writer for business, which is what copywriting means. So before we even get to the nerdy statistic, let's just clear up what copy and copywriting is for anybody who's like, is it the little C in the circle? It's not. Your copy is anywhere that there are words that describe you, your brand, your product, or your business. So literally everything, right? It's your emails, it's your bio, it's your speaker materials, it's your social media, it's your website. It's anywhere that there are words on the interwebs that represent you or your business, that's your copy. Important distinction. Copywriting is the art and science of using those words to get a desired reader to take a desired action. So what that means is your copy has the potential to weed through anybody who is not a good fit for you, hone in on the people who actually want to pay you already, and convince them to make a decision. That decision can be buying a product, signing up for a $10,000 coaching program, or just clicking subscribe to your email list. If you get your copywriting down, it's like having an entire sales team working for you around the clock in the background for free. So that's why I am such an evangelist about learning to write your own copy. So that's that. Now for the nerdy statistic I promised you, which is that businesses that focus on their copy, like just spend some time getting their copyright, see 300% more conversions than businesses that don't. So that's triple the profits, that's triple the results. That is a whole outfit instead of I'll just take the shoes. It's a three bedroom house instead of a studio apartment. However you want to slice it, 300% better results, scientifically proven. Just from learning how to talk. Yeah.

This is so huge. I was just in a mastermind. I was in a room with people who are literally dominating business and life. And the conversation literally kept revolving around copy, talking about there are a million great products out there, but the only difference is the people who have learned how to nail it within. Well, obviously like funnels and things like that, but majority of it is your copy and copywriting. And it's like crazy to see the amount of like the, the most bad.

Copy in that room.

Like yeah, seriously. And you know, I think it's that difference of like so many people spending time on the product where yes, we want the product to be good, but majority of the time should really be.

Spent on your copier.

People will never ever experience the products. You can always go back and iterate.

Right, that's exactly true. And I think a lot of people are afraid to come back to things and change things and adjust things when really that's what the most successful people are doing is they're constantly like they get their core first. Right. And we'll get to this. But there's actually quite a bit of mental health work that I sort of accidentally figured out people needed to do to get to that brand voice. But we'll get there. But once you have that foundation, you want to continue to test different language, see what's working, see what's converting, understand that things are shorter now. I see a ton of people who like spend a lot of money working with a copywriter to write them this long ass sales page from 2019. Right. And in 2019 maybe it was great, but in 2022, 2023, those long form sales pages ain't gonna cut it no more. I'm so sorry. So it's so important to. Even if you feel like you have a really good grasp on how you speak to revisit, where is your copy out in the world. When was the last time you looked at your old pins on Pinterest? Like, things like this. It makes a difference. It makes a huge difference.

Okay, so let's talk about that. Let's talk about. Because right now people are like, okay, tell me how to find my voice. Like, what do I do and what do I need to work on? So what are some of the things when people are first trying to get their. We can kind of talk about it like the same, right? Like personal brand and maybe they have a product. It's kind of all.

It is very much the same when it comes to like really understanding the way in which you show up to speak. You had an interview recently where you were talking about, like, at different times in your life, you were attracted to different kinds of coaches. Like, sometimes you need the kick in the ass coach and sometimes you need the nurturing, like the warm, fuzzy coach. Great. Both are good. But you're going to be attracted to different people and different types of businesses according to what you need in that moment. Same thing with copy. You are understanding what is the tone, what is that foundation where I'm coming from, Whether I am selling a candle or a mastermind. It doesn't matter who you are. The core of how you speak to your audience. That's what we're really starting with.

Okay, I love that. So let's say we are. Whether we're starting or we're revisiting our copy, like, and we're kind of like, you know what? I don't think my voice is totally dialed in. Or maybe I need to change where I'm at. What are some of the first steps that you do with somebody when you're like, okay, we clearly need to like dial this in or get an upgrade. Because if there's not confidence there, that means that you're not sure of your voice.

Totally. Totally. Thank you so much for saying that. So the first thing I tell people is it's going to be okay. Because it's so overwhelming to think about changing every single place. You have words on the Internet that a lot of people have deer in the headlight syndrome and just freeze and don't do anything. Or the other common reaction is they verbal vomit all over the Internet trying to over explain who they are and what they do. Yeah. So no matter what your reaction is to us coming to you and saying we're going to start with, like, where do we start with copywriting? I promise you it's going to be okay. We're going to get through it. There are so many magic tricks. I like to call them magic tricks. Is that what they are? Formulas that you can use ethically by applying your voice to these formulas that are proven to improve your copy and improve your conversion. So your question was where do we start? My favorite place for people to start is with their value proposition. It's not so intense that it's going to cause you to have an existential crisis, but it's not fluffy either. It's not like a subject line, right?

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So what is your value proposition? Your value proposition is the number one thing you do or sell that your audience actively wants that your competition doesn't offer or they don't offer it in the same way that you offer it. I love starting with the value proposition because it really does force people to focus in and think about, you know, oh, I sell 10 things, Kelsey, how can I hone in? Okay, great. You sell 10 things. What is your number one money maker or what is the number one thing you want to be your money maker? What is the tent pole of your business? That's where we start. That's going to be like a building block of all of your copy. So the number one thing you do or sell. I like to use my own value proposition as an example because sometimes with words it's like, okay, but I need to see it. I need to hear what that sounds like. So my value proposition is I teach entrepreneurs how to write words that sell without sounding salesy. That's my value proposition. It's the first thing on my website. It's the thing in all my bios. And if you want to know how to write your own value proposition, I do happen to have a course. Cough, cough, nudge, nudge, wink, wink. So let's break that down. I teach entrepreneurs how to write words that sell. That's the number one thing I do, right? That is the number one service I offer. And then the next aspect of the value proposition, it's the number one thing you do that people actually want to pay you for. Right. People need to know how to sell things. They pay me because they need to know the shortcut to making more sales. So that's why they come to me. That's the reason they're visiting this website and that my competition doesn't offer is without sounding salesy, a lot of copywriters out there. Unfortunately, for a very long time it was a very male dominated industry. Sorry about it guys. Not to like throw shade, but it was so focused on money that it turned a lot of people off and did like ironically, the opposite of what copy is supposed to do. Yeah. And so when you put all of that together, people get an immediate, clear picture of who I am, how I approach my work, why they're coming to me in the first place and what they're going to walk away with. So if someone starts with their value proposition, it gives you so much more information than just a line of text on your website. That was a long winded answer. I hope that was okay to follow.

Oh, that was amazing. So I think anybody who is listening could sit and do that. Now you have it chunked down into something so beautiful and so simplistic. So for the people who have so much copy everywhere and are over explaining, how do we help them realize that less is way more.

Okay, nerdy statistics again. Pushes imaginary glasses up nose. Sorry to burst any bubbles. 80% of people only read headlines. That goes for everything on the Internet. That goes for captions on social media. They only read the title. They don't open it and read the whole caption ever. On websites they only read headlines and usually button text. That is something people will read. They only read when you have an email. They only read the subject line and then the big bold headlines. 80% of people. So why are you wasting so much time pulling your hair out over stuff that is filler that people aren't even reading. Keep that in mind if you, if you're one of those people, and I used to be one of these people who agonizes over having the perfect email. It's like your dissertation by the time you're done with it. And it was just supposed to be an update about your latte order. Whatever, you know, it takes the pressure off.

Yeah.

80% of people are only looking at your headlines. Okay, so what do we do with that information knowing that 80% of people only read your headlines and the whole point of copy is to get people to take action, make sure your headlines are short and sweet. No more than Two sentences. One, if you can keep it to one line, even better. And that they flow together and make sense and move the reader towards a desired action. So an example of what that might look like on, let's say your homepage of your website. Your headlines should explain the big idea of what you do, how you do it, who you help, where you want them to go. And put a button right there at the bottom, click this button to do the thing that is like the most simplistic way of thinking about how to stop over explaining yourself. Verbal vomiting. Just focus on those headlines. It doesn't mean just throw anything up either, but it means, like, the pressure's off. It doesn't have to be perfect. No one's going to look at a paragraph of text and read the whole thing. You're off the hook.

Oh, my God. So I'm in the 80%. And literally I get so frustrated when I go to a site and I'm like, tell me, who do you help and where can I buy?

Right? Or why?

Why, why, why? Yeah, if it's not there, because I'll just. I literally am the scanner. Which is also funny because I. I can also err on the side of. I'm trying to go back to the old me when I was. I felt like I had so much to say and it was all so important. And now I'm like, oh, man. Which I think that's part of the journey, right? When it totally is. Like, when you don't know who you are in the beginning, you're. You're like, but I'm all these things and you're kind of not, but you think you are, like, yeah, well.

And an important kernel of truth in that is when you are. Especially if you're a helper, like if you're a coach or a service provider. Often we don't want to exclude anybody. We don't want to alienate anybody. And so niching down or being specific in the way that we speak actually feels, like, dangerous, right? Like it actually feels really bad in our body. Important to call that out. Name it, it's totally normal. But if you think like a copywriter, which is my entire thing of teaching people, it's just a switching of how you think about writing. If you think about the people who are going to be most helped by you, you're going to keep it very simple and you're going to speak exactly to them, exactly to their pain points. So another trick, if you're a verbal vomiter or if you don't quite know where you fit is to just focus on your ideal customers. Pain points, like just talk about that. Don't even talk about you or what you do. Like just talk about them. It's really a great way to sort of stop, like just unloading on, on the Internet. Oh man.

It can be, it's interesting because it can be a tough spot because in the beginning you don't necessarily have an abundant mindset around. You're just not there yet. You want all the customers, right. You want to bring that money in. So sometimes we can feel with our languaging, we're like, yeah, but I just. Exactly what you said. I don't want to exclude people. But there's something so powerful about knowing that yes, there's going to be a lot more no's when you're that clear and unique, but you're going to work with exactly who you want. And I feel like you could probably save yourself a lot of the pain that I brought into my life for years of working with people that I didn't actually get lit up by, that really burnt me out. Like great people. But my communication had opened up to them. Things that I didn't necessarily want to be talking about because I was saying, oh, I do all of these things, when in reality I really only wanted to be talking about certain things.

Totally.

So yeah, it's so powerful to think of it that way and knowing how do you feel about that? Like, yeah, it might take a little bit longer, but tell me the things.

I absolutely think. Just like anything else, there has to be a period of self exploration. And I mentioned this at the early part of our conversation that we would get here and here we are, which is that there is an element of building a personal brand that is very much dependent on personal development. Our success as a business person is entirely dependent on our willingness to be mushy and explorative and see what actually works for us and learn who we actually are. I found after like a year and a half of working with people just as a freelance copywriter, one to one, that the most common issue I ran into wasn't even about money. It was about people not knowing who they were. And I ended up being their therapist before I could be their copywriter because I had to help guide them. How do you feel most comfortable showing up? Are you a cheerleader or are you a therapist? Are you a ball buster or are you a soft and silent? Are you a hippie or are you a science nerd? Like, there are so many facets of who we can show up as that. It can be overwhelming. But once you try on the different things and learn. For me, it was social media. I was like. I offered like, a social media copywriting package for a while, and very quickly I was like, nope, nope, abort, abort. You have to learn that. And there's kind of no way around it.

There's no way.

You can't skip to the successful personal brand without the personal.

It's so true. I love this conversation about, like, simplifying, because again, I'm going back to that mastermind that I was literally just in where this. Just confirming the whole conversation over and over again. That was mostly a product mastermind, so. But it refers. It's like personal branding and products are so much the same. It's crazy. There are certain different approaches, but for the most part, I almost think of the product. Well, I do think of the product as having a personality, so.

Oh, it does, Yes. I mean, if you think about, like, let's just think about you. You're in the beverage business, Is that right?

We're doing some pivots, but yes, essentially, hydration.

Yeah, hydration. Great. So if you think about, like, going to a supermarket and looking at different drinks on the shelf, different drinks make you feel different things because of their branding, not because of what's in the drink, because of the branding. So no matter what you're selling, you have to think about, how do I want to make people feel when they see my brand name, my product name, my actual name as a human being, come into their inbox, cross their sight line in a store? It is all down to how do you make people feel?

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Yes.

These are the other side effects that you can talk about later, maybe once they're in there. But again, that can feel scary because you're like, wait, no, I do all these things, but I'm gonna just lead and say this one thing.

One of the best things that I learned, and again, this is in my signature copywriting class, is about levels of awareness. Have you heard of this?

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Yeah. So for the listeners, if someone is coming to, let's stick with the product example, a product page, they have a low level of awareness. We're assuming a low level of awareness about all the different things that that product can do, all the different features and benefits of this product. So you have to just speak to one, like, very high level thing that encompasses how their life is going to change. Once this product is in their life, then you can think of it as a narrowing funnel. Right. As their awareness goes up, of the different things that the product does, the more you're allowed to Talk about things. The further they go down this rabbit hole with you, the more you can tell them about the ways that your product is going to improve their life. But you cannot hit them with a fire hose of everything right out of the gate. They will be overwhelmed. They will click away.

So for somebody listening right now, what modalities could that look like? Because someone might be like, oh, do I? Is that right away? Is that lower on the sales page? Or is that like, get them in to the email list. Then emails later on kind of look like that. How does it kind of show up in email? How does it kind of show up in social? How does it show up in conversation?

I love this question. Ooh. Okay, so how does it. Let's start with how it shows up on websites. Okay, so copy again the art and science of using words to get a desired reader to take a desired action. So implied. We have to decide what is the action we want the person to take on the webpage. I usually encourage people one of two things. Get them to subscribe to an email list. That's an action. Or get them to click to the next page. Keep them reading, get their level of awareness to be deeper and deeper and deeper. So those are the two main options. So let's go with email list. We want them to hit the subscribe button by the time they're done at the end of the page. So what does that look like with levels of awareness on the homepage? We start out with that value proposition, the number one thing we do or sell that our audience actively wants to pay us for, that our competition doesn't offer. Main idea. Then maybe the next section, their level of awareness is a little bit higher. We explain what copywriting is, why it's important to them. Now their awareness is a little higher. We tell them, here maybe are some pain points that you're seeing in your life that I can help you with. Now their level of awareness is even higher. Want that help? Click subscribe to my email list so that I can show you how. That is a very simple example of the levels of awareness leading you towards a desired action. Now let's do emails. So they've subscribed to your email list. We have now what's called a warming sequence, a nurture sequence, a welcome sequence, an email funnel. There's all kinds of names for it, but chances are you know what it is. You get the first email, it's just an introduction. Maybe they're being delivered a freebie that they downloaded. Very general high level of awareness. This is How I help you now they have a little bit higher awareness. Email number two comes in. Here are some of the ways that other people have been helped by me. Next, email in the sequence. Here's another podcast episode that maybe you'll find helpful. More free information. Their level of awareness has gone up. Next, email in the. You get the idea. The end of the welcome sequence is if you really want help, here are ways that you can pay me and I can help you. Here's the link to buy the product, here's the book, the consultation call for the Mastermind, whatever it is, that's levels of awareness in an email funnel. It gets higher and higher and higher awareness until we drive them to a desired action. I think the last thing you asked about was social. Social is a little bit different because it is not guaranteed that people are going to see everything that you post. I think it's something like a message is six times more likely to be seen in an inbox than it is on social media. Even if you have a ton of followers, you're much more likely to consistently reach people in their inbox. I digress. But how that applies to social media is consistency. Whereas in an email or on your website, you can kind of control someone's level of awareness with social media, at any given point, somebody might be showing up for the first time. So your call to action on social media, pretty much always, you want them to go to your profile, you want them to click through to see more content from you so their level of awareness can go up. So the desired action is a little bit different. Is that helpful?

Oh, God, yes. So helpful. I love that. I mean, throughout all of it, it's consistency and communication, like you're communicating with a friend. Like, I think of that all the time on, on social too. It's like, okay, if I wanted someone to know what was going on and we know that likelihood of having people see this is like nothing. How often do I have to talk about it and how am I going to say it? And yeah, it's like such a fun game, isn't it?

It is a fun game. That's a really, really positive way of thinking of it. And I think also people forget how valuable highlights are. The story highlights. I think they kind of went out of fashion. They're so freaking helpful. I don't do social media coaching anymore, but the number one thing I would always tell clients is do a quote, start here, story highlight, have that be the first thing. So many people watch that shit, like, oh, sorry.

Oh, you can swear all you want on here, right?

Fantastic.

So many people watch that shit.

Because if they're interested in you, that's a call to action. Start here. They hit that, and you can literally have their attention for two to ten minutes if you so choose. Taking them through exactly who you are and what you do. And maybe a call to action there is to go to your website. So that's a great tip for social. Do a start here. Highlight.

That is so good, because that. That is funny. If I go to someone's page, I'm kind of like, oh, what are they up to? My highlights are terrible right now. So we're going to work on that right after.

I know. I always feel bad by the end of doing any sort of podcast interview. The host inevitably is like, well, I feel called out now. I have to go change this. I'm going to go write my value proposition.

Oh, my God, it's so good. It's so funny because like. Like, it's kind of like the carpenter who's home, you know, is usually the one that needs all the work because you're like, you need to go and work on the business even though you're in the business every day. It's so important. It's just like, yeah. So well.

And that's.

We all feel called out.

Totally. Well. And that's the reason that I love copywriting so much, is because, again, like I said, it's free. Once you learn how to do it, the principles do not change of persuasion and copywriting. Like, there are little tweaks about. You know, our attention span has gone down big, surprising no one.

Yeah.

And video, like, the copy in your video is really important. People read captions. There are, like, things that you keep up with, of course, but the general principles of writing words that sell do not change. Once you learn those principles, you will never be able to unknow them. You have them for life, which is something that I love. It's not like learning an algorithm that's going to change in three months and bite you in the ass. Yeah.

Oh, my gosh. Let's talk about what persuasion means in this. In this whole equation. Because, you know, some people are like, oh, persuading. And other people are really excited by it. So explain persuasion to me and how that actually shows up. Like, obviously, we want people to buy our product. How can we get them to do that? Because we all know we spend all the time on our product and all the things, and we want them to buy it.

I love this question. A lot of people hear the word persuasion and they have an icky taste in their mouth, right? We feel a little bit gross, like somehow we're tricking people into buying our thing. That is absolutely not what we are doing in this case. Ethically, the art of persuasion is helping people who already need you understand how you can help them. Whether that's with a product or service, it doesn't matter. People who already want this thing in their life, they already want this improvement. And you are giving them a shortcut by paying you for the shortcut. That is all that persuasion is. So with that definition in front of us, we need to show people how their life is going to improve. That is the number one way to help people understand why you over the competition, why now? It all comes down to how am I going to improve your life again? I know a broken record. In my class I have a whole section on features versus benefits benefits. It's such a helpful thing to learn. It's way too much to go into on this podcast. But please look up features versus benefits, especially you product based people. Because a trap a lot of product based businesses fall into is they just list the features of their thing instead of the benefits of having the product in their life. It's a very easy trap to fall into. Don't feel bad if you did anybody listening to this, a really quick copywriting improvement. Just go through your website, see if you can switch some features into benefits. Really, really easy persuasion tool. Another one I like to call this review mining. Go to positive testimonials or reviews of your product or of your competitor's product if you have not launched yet and you'll start to see some words, phrases being repeated over and over. What I want you to do is take those phrases that are being repeated over and over, copy them and paste them, put them in your copy. You are literally taking the words out of your ideal customer's mouths. Either people who've already paid you or people who've already paid people like you. It's a great, great persuasion tool. Testimonials are the most effective persuasion tool. You can tell people how you're going to help them all day long, but if they see somebody whose life has actually been improved, that's going to make the decision much quicker, much easier for everybody.

Oh, testimonials are, I mean for me they're literally everything. Like I can have somebody especially, oh my God, I know we can't always do it, but like word of mouth testimonials, immediately I'm like, okay, great. But you know, there's interesting ways to capture testimonials too. I find that with testimonials, testimonials that I'm more willing to read them if there's like a picture, if there's like.

A verified buyer, even adding those words.

Right, like adding a picture, adding this person is a verified buyer, whatever that looks like. Then I'm like, oh, I am going to listen to this person. They went through this program. They did the thing where sometimes I see on pages like testimonials with like the first name, no picture. I'm like, I could make this up as well.

Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. I think that that's such a great point. Having and also having multiple types of testimonials, I really like including screenshots. Like if somebody DMs you something really nice or if somebody leaves a comment on social, whatever. Like taking a screenshot of a message that you sent back and forth with somebody, it shows that it's real versus, like typing what they said into your brand font on your website. Like, and having different types of testimonials throughout is really great too.

That is so good. It makes it so personal and it, it's. Yeah, it just makes it really real. Even having those screenshots from your phone, it feels very like, yeah, modern, personal.

Yeah. And I think a lot of people shy away from it because they're like, oh, isn't that kind of unprofessional to just have like a screenshot from my phone instead of a professionally graphic designed whatever? No. The moment people feel like they're being duped, they're out. As they should be. Right. So letting people in, showing them behind the curtain, being real, that's your best persuasion sales tool by far and away.

I totally agree. I'm like, so grateful for how. For the way things are going in that regard because number one, it makes it easier for the person who is selling, who is in integrity, who is doing well and getting these results, and it doesn't have to be so flawlessly cleaned up and perfect. Like, that was such a challenge for me.

I don't know if I ever got there, to be honest.

So now I'm like, this works so much better now. So let's chat a little bit about. We'll just touch on influencer marketing for anyone who is thinking, how can I get my stuff out there? What does this look like? Product or personal brand? Like, I'm so curious on how personal brands are going to be using influencers. How are you seeing this? How do we do it? How do we engage.

Do I love this?

Give them the copy. Tell me all the things.

Okay, so I had a tech client for three and a half years that was a social influencer marketing platform. And we specialized in connecting brands with exactly the right influencers for them. Like, yeah. And what I learned, I learned so much. One of the main things that I learned was so often we as brands think of ourselves. Like, when I say brand, I also mean personal brand. We think of, does the person look like my audience or does the person look like somebody I would want to buy from me? But you really have to think about their audience. When you are connecting with an influencer or just someone else on the Internet that you want to talk about your thing, you have to consider their audience. They've spent a long time building that audience. You are getting a shortcut to the trust of that audience. Influencer marketing can be an incredible tool. Now, we're not all Coca Cola. We don't have millions of dollars to spend on campaigns with people who have millions of followers. But what we can do is offer to do some of the following things. Give them a access code to your course, have a topic that you are an expert on, and offer to do a Instagram live with them to teach their audience something that you're an expert in. If you have a product, DM them and ask them, hey, is this something that you would be interested in learning more about? Start small and give them something of value, like access to a podcast episode. Have them on as a guest. It does not have to be just a traditional monetary exchange or sending product out into the ether and hoping somebody reviews it nicely. Influencer marketing is all about identifying whose audience you want to be in front of and how you can best serve that audience. So the influencer wants to have a long term relationship with you.

I love this because I get approached, I approach people. It really is. It's so interesting. I just had somebody tell me, because obviously we're doing some different product placement ideas right now, of course. And they were like telling me about how their product got placed with like one of the biggest celebrities out there right now. And not one thing sold from this post because it was such a mismatch. And they thought for sure. They were like, I don't even know how that's even possible. Like, we thought the website was broken, but it wasn't. And I was like, you got, oh.

That breaks my heart. That breaks my heart. Well, and the thing too, the thing about influencer marketing is, and I feel like a little traitorous saying this, there is no guarantee in influencer marketing. Right. Like you can pay somebody, you can be with somebody who you think is like exactly the right fit for you, and nothing can happen. Like it really can be a gamble. It's a worthwhile gamble to take because again, nerdy statistics. I think the statistic is something like there's an 11 times higher ROI with influencers than there is for traditional advertising. So if you're trying to make a decision about buying Facebook ads versus working with influencers, I'd say work with influencers every time. Especially for product based businesses, it's just a little bit different. But if it's a personal brand, it's personal relationships and thinking about how you can serve their audience and personal relationships, often they help product based businesses too. Yeah.

You know, and you're making me think about like how, how personal can you get with that person as well? Because if, especially if their audience can see you together somehow, like it's not just repping for your mastermind or whatever that is. Like maybe could they speak at your mastermind? Could you think the long game with that person? You know, like could you have them on an interview or what does that actually look like? So I love that and I really do think influencer marketing and ads and all the things it's really about being sometimes, like, yes, like I said, that company may have not gotten paid, but maybe it, it helped add into the omnipresence of the brand. And now, see, you don't get to see that right away. Sometimes, like totally, you could be paying an influencer that later on encourages that person after they see two more hits of your product or two more, you know, exposures to your mastermind or whatever that is, they're like, oh, I keep seeing it everywhere.

So you or I keep seeing the person. Like if you, Lori, are out there representing your product, people seeing you in whatever capacity. Again, another nerdy statistic. It takes on average seven times of being exposed to something before we buy it.

Yeah.

So just showing up in some capacity in someone's world if they're not on your email list yet, the best place to do that is social media. So just think of it as repeat exposure. Repetition is recognition and you're just getting in front of that audience, the same audience over and over and over. I think that is really the key of what makes influencer marketing successful or not. It's targeting that same audience over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Instead of, I targeted them once and it didn't work. I'm going to look elsewhere. It's targeting that aligned audience over and over and over and over and over.

Oh, my gosh. I love this because at the end.

Of the day, you guys, like, everything.

You hear on this podcast is consistency. And if you follow what she says, like, your mind will be absolutely blown with just seeing how people. Like you said, like, just having people recognize and then having great copy for them to go land on.

Yes, yes, exactly. It's so important because so often, like, people are wonderful on Instagram lives, or they give a great webinar, they give a great speaking engagement, and you go to your. Their website being so excited to buy their book or work with them or whatever, and you get there and you're just like, oh. And it, like, so. It just breaks my heart that so much. It's not just about the revenue. It's about, like, the help that people don't get because they don't understand how you can help them.

Yeah, we're here to fix it. So good. Any last words that you want to have people walk away with that are coming up for you?

It's not scary. Writing is not scary. I know that you hear the word writing and it might just be like, oh, it's going to take so long and whatever. I promise you, it's actually really fucking fun. Like, if you just take 30 minutes, I have a freebie that is three copywriting secrets to triple your profits. Three changes you can make to your copy, 30 minutes or less. It is so fucking fun to be like, oh, my God, I spent 30 minutes changing three things, and all of a sudden I'm getting all these DMs, or all of a sudden my Google Analytics traffic is going up and people aren't bouncing as quickly. Oh, my God, I changed these three things, and I got a hundred email subscribers. Like, what? It's that easy? I promise you. It's so fun. It's like Lori said, it's a game. And it's like, once you get in that, like, you win that first level of just making a couple changes and you get the reward. You're like, ooh, what else can I do? What other magic can I weave? It's not scary. I promise, promise, promise.

I love that. And truly, it's practice, like you said, and having a masterful teacher like yourself to guide them through. So how can we get your freebie that you just mentioned or be able.

To work with you? You bet. So you can go to my website, Kelsey foremost.com. all my freebies, and all this Information is up there. If you're on this podcast, you might particularly like the freebie about how to write an Instagram bio. It really mirrors how to write a value proposition. So if that part of this conversation spoke to you, download that freebie. I think it'll be really, really helpful. And, you know, go through my website, see how else I can help. I help with templates. If you need copy, like yesterday, I've got those. I also have my signature course copy class, which it's so ethically important to me that people learn to write their own high converting copy so they don't have to keep spending thousands and thousands of dollars on a copywriter. It's oh my God, please, please. Whether it's me or someone else else, learn to write your own high converting copy. And if you want to hang out with me on social, where I'm a little bit more loosey goosey and personal, it's Kelsey writes W R I T E S on Instagram is where I mainly hang out, watch my stupid reels where we make writing fun. And basically I just make fun of myself all the time. So, yeah, come hang out with me on Instagram. Hit me up on my website. I'm here to help.

Amazing. And you guys know the biggest gift we can give to them is to obviously go check out their stuff, but also to let her know what your biggest takeaway was. How did she help you on this podcast today? So give her a tag. Give me a tag. I want to know what you took away from this podcast today. And we are so grateful for you, Kelsey. Thank you so much for just offering so much value. It's always so fun for me to be like, oh, yeah, that's a great reminder. Oh, I learned something so new today.

That was awesome. Okay, so grateful for you and you guys.

Until next time, earn your happy.

Bye, everyone.