Terri Cole on High Functioning Codependency, Burnout & Boundaries

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There's a different flavor of codependency for modern women, and I knew it so well because it was my own flavor. It was what I had experienced in my life, which is you being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the circumstances, the finances, the situations, the careers of the people in your life. To the detriment of your own internal peace. So what does that mean? It means as women, as empaths, as lovers, as friends, as daughters, as aunties, as all the things, of course we are invested in our people being happy. We love them. We want them to get what they want in lives, you know? I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when you're an HFC, as we call it, it's more than that. We go from, "I want you to get what you want, Lori," to, I feel responsible for you getting what you want, Lori. I feel responsible for how you feel.

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Earn Your Happy podcast. Today's episode is another throwback, one of my favorite conversations. And you guys know that I've had this podcast for 8 years. So if you're newer to the podcast, I have literally recorded over 1,400 episodes, you guys. So I wanna make sure that you don't miss any of these super amazing juicy conversations that I have chosen just for you, because I can't tell you about the wealth of knowledge that is in this freaking catalog of throwbacks. I don't want you to miss it. It's truly what has changed my life and helped me on my journey of growth in entrepreneurship, in relationships, in personal development. and I know that these messages are gonna hit you in the same kind of powerful way that they hit me. So I hope that you love this one as much as I do, and let's get started. You're not gonna wanna skip any part of this episode today because if you are in relationships, if you have a family, I'm telling you, this episode freaking blew my mind. I've had Terri Cole on before, but this is my favorite topic. She's a psychotherapist and an author, a relationship and boundary expert. And this podcast is so huge for me because we struggle with— like, I literally struggle with high-functioning codependency. I didn't know what the fuck that was before we started talking, but I read her book, or I read part of her book before this because I had just gotten it because it's just coming out, and I was like, holy shit, this is me, you guys. And I think that you are going to completely resonate with this. If you are like an overachiever who really just like is deeply emotional, deeply cares about people in your family, like, but maybe not a very healthy point. And I was like, oh damn, like I am being called out. So if you don't think you're codependent because you don't rely on anyone for anything, you're always in control of every situation and you know how to make sure everyone around you feels good, you might also be a high-functioning codependent. For women like us who are incredibly capable, accomplished, and can handle a lot, it can be easy to find ourselves putting everyone else first, which leads to burnout, which was me over the last, like, I don't know, 10 years. Terri shares red flags to recognize these patterns, to set healthier boundaries, and stop sacrificing her peace for the sake of others. She also shares how changing our behaviors not only helps you reclaim your personal peace but actually improves your relationships. So if you're ready to stop the cycle of your burnout, resentment, and even self-sabotage in your career, which you may not even realize you're doing, this episode is gonna be the one. Let me tell you, I feel like this is gonna one of the most shared episodes for all of you. It's crazy. So I want to dive right in. And you guys, the book is insane. I'm obsessed with it, and you're going to want to grab it. So let's get started. Terri, welcome back to the Earn Your Happy podcast.

Thanks, Lori. I'm happy to be back.

Uh, you guys, this is like our first— I was just asking Terri if this was like her first thing back after the new year that she's doing on her schedule, because it's January 2nd right now and you're my, you're my re-entry into 2025. This is a dream. Can I start every year with you discussing life and boundaries and family and codependent relationships?

Let's do it.

This conversation is going to be so powerful for people because I think people are really ready for it. I think we're all starting to become really aware of the topic and that there's ways to change and there's ways to show up differently no matter what family you comes from. Or you comes from. I'm from the Midwest. No matter what family you comes from, that we can really— there are some major things that we can do. And I love your messages. Sometimes I just go over to your Instagram to read your quick little messages or see some of your reels because they're really powerful reminders of how we can take more ownership in our life. So I'm very excited about this next book, you guys. If you're not watching it on video, of course we have Terri Cole and it's Too Much. The book is called Too Much. It's a guide to breaking the cycle of high-functioning codependency. So, um, this is a really fun one because we're gonna dive in and we're gonna talk all about this. If people don't know what this topic is, if they don't know exactly what this means, But I love it. I, I literally can't wait to finish the book. So let's dive into that. Let's start talking about, I think my first question for you, just because I'm so curious about how this relates to your life. I know whenever we're teaching something, whenever we're writing something, Terri, it's because we teach what we need the most. So can you tell me how this topic, uh, was inspired and how it relates to your life?

I mean, I was a hardcore codependent and didn't know it because I'm also such a capable, accomplished, and high-functioning person. So I firmly agree that we teach what we most need to learn. And for me, I didn't understand that how I was feeling in my 20s, why I was feeling the way I was. I was feeling frustrated in my relationships. I was feeling, um, put upon. I was feeling taken advantage of. I was feeling underappreciated. And I didn't realize it. There really was this idea and this thought that it was other people. I really did truly believe, well, if my boss were just different, if my boyfriend had been different, if my friend hadn't betrayed me or whatever the thing was. And of course, a good therapist helped me see that I was the fucking common denominator in all of my experiences because I was also part of what happened is think about if you just naturally go codependency, do I identify as a codependent? My answer would've been hell no. Right. And so what ended up happening is, so I go through my own experience in my 20s, 30s. I've been in therapy since I was 19. I stopped drinking when I was in my early 20s. So this was very much like I'd eyes wide open to the way that I was relating in my relationships once my therapist sort of called this out. So then I become a talent agent, do my whole, have that whole career. Then I become a psychotherapist and I'm attracting into my psychotherapy practice women who resonate with my energy in the world, right? So these are people who are literally building empires. They're, whatever they are, they're, whatever they're doing, they're really doing it. And I would say, oh, hey, what you're describing, that is definitely a codependent pattern. We should unpack it. Immediately there would be a rejection of the notion of being codependent. They'd be like, I'm not dependent on squat, Terri. You know this. Everyone's dependent on me. I'm making all the money. I'm making all the moves. I'm managing all the people and all the things. I'm getting all the shit done. I'm doing all the emotional labor. How could I be codependent? Everyone's dependent on me. Which made me realize, Lori, that people didn't know what codependency was and that they were being sort of unduly influenced by Melody Beattie, Codependent No More. You got to be, you know, enabling an alcoholic to be a codependent. Like, there was almost this negative connotation, like a weakness, or like, you know, a long-suffering partner sitting at home crying while the person's, you know, spending the rent check on gambling. You know what I mean? Right. And that was none of my clients, and that was not my experience. So let's establish— I've realized now I can't— obviously it was a problem for me as the therapist because how could I help them if they didn't see themselves in the problem? Hmm.

Yep.

And it really got me thinking about there, there's a different flavor of codependency for modern women. And I knew it so well because it was my own flavor. It was what I had experienced in my life. So let's establish what I say is high-functioning codependency. Which is you being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the circumstances, the finances, the situations, the careers of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace. So what does that mean? It means as women, as empaths, as lovers, as friends, as daughters, as aunties, as all the things, of course we are invested in our people being happy. We love them. We want them to get what they want in lives. You know, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when you're in HFC, as we call it, it's more than that. We go from, I want you to get what you want, Lori, to I feel responsible for you getting what you want, Lori. I feel responsible for how you feel, right? At its— if we were gonna say at its core, at the foundation of any kind of codependency, is an overt or a covert desire, bid, attempt to control other people's outcomes. I don't want you to be sad, so I'm gonna give auto-advice. I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a lot of suggestions about the situation you're in that's gonna help you, cuz I was in a similar situation, right? What is that doing? I don't like the way you're feeling. Hmm. I want to change the way you're feeling. So I'm going to give you some things that are gonna help change the way that you're feeling. The thing that people don't understand is the control aspect. People are always like, to me, asking the question, I, I'm always confused. Is it, am I being caring or am I being codependent? And I'm like, the real question is, am I being caring or am I being controlling? Hmm. Because that's really what codependency is. We do not want our friend to marry the stupid idiot. We do not want our partner to get fired from their job. And listen, any normal people wouldn't want those things. But when you're a high-functioning codependent and when you're so capable, because part of the problem is that the people in my therapy practice and the women in particular that I wrote this book for, and the people in my life, because I gotta say, HFCs, we travel in packs. Yeah, we are highly functioning. Nobody is walking around and being like, I hope Lori is okay. They're like, she's fucking fine. You know why? Because she's always fine. Nobody's wondering if Terry's okay. You know why? Obviously I'm okay because we can function at this high level. So nobody's looking behind the curtain. Nobody knows how we feel inside. Nobody understands the level of Exhaustion, burnout. This is what I've seen in my therapy practice. Frustration, feeling unappreciated, feeling taken advantage of, getting to the point of burnout where everything on your list, even the things you used to love to do, become checking a box. Mm-hmm. Because we're so productivity-focused as well. So the high-functioning aspect of it makes it lonely. There can be like an existential loneliness. In being a high-functioning codependent because, and, and I think maybe it'll be helpful and you tell me, Lori, but I feel like it'll be helpful if we could say what are the traits of being a high-functioning codependent so people listening or watching can go, okay, yes, I identify with that. That's me. And then we'll get into some fixes. Mm-hmm. So the first thing I would say is feeling responsible for fixing other people's problems, right? You gotta think about it when your friend calls you. And is in a crisis, how quickly is that crisis literally yours? Like, it's, it's not just you being like, hmm, I feel bad. I really, I feel compassion for my friend. You're like, I'm Googling things. I'm sending a book. I'm calling an oncologist. Like, I'm doing things to fix this problem. Um, another trait is just going above and beyond. A lot of times when we're not asked to, we like see a need. And we just wanna fill that need. So we are automatically doing it. Um, always ready to jump into damage control mode. So one thing that's amazing, and you guys trust me, you can, you get into recovery because that's all we can hope for when you're a high-functioning codependent. We just wanna get into recovery from this. But all of the qualities that make you so amazing, there'll just be more of them. And what we do when we're in recovery is that we are starting to do less of the dysfunctional behaviors that make us pissed, that make us bitter, that make us low-key, like aggravated, just waiting for someone to cut us off in traffic or just waiting for some— like we're so efficient, we can't stop seeing the way the world is so inefficient. And it can be exhausting and frustrating. But what I'm saying is don't worry about getting into recovery because the reality is you don't, you don't become a different person. It's just like me being in recovery for alcohol. I just have a different behavior. Do I never want to drink? No, I would like to drink right now. I just don't, right? I just, I just choose not to, right? There's— it's 5 o'clock somewhere, as was my motto back in the day, you know. Um, another thing, another trait is kind of getting frustrated when people don't take our advice, because we can be very generous when people have problems. We'll spend a lot of time talking to them, you know, and then they don't do it and we're kind of pissed. So another residual effect of these behaviors, if we do them consistently, is feeling resentful, feeling kind of bitter, feeling exhausted. So if we were to say what the behaviors themselves, like, what do they look like in real life? Mm-hmm. Um, auto-advice giving is one of the top ones where I wouldn't even, I, I, I didn't even save it for the people I knew. Like I'd auto-advice give a frigging stewardess, like anyone. I could barely know you and be like, oh, I overheard that you're looking for a new car and I wanted to like, just mind your business. I couldn't even let my friends drive the way that, you know, they'd be leaving when I was living in LA and I'd be like, don't take the 405. There's cons— like, just mind your own fucking business. They also have ways. But in those ways I couldn't, I couldn't stop thinking about what could go wrong. Not wanting my friend to have that bad experience. Being overly self-sacrificing is another behavior where when you are a high-functioning codependent, an HFC, we're like always willing to take one for the team. Mm-hmm. It always seems like someone else needs something else. Imagine that you and your partner, you both— imagine back in the day when people would drive to work, um, you would, you're, he's leaving first and there's a flat tire. You'd immediately just yell out the door, take the other car, I'll Uber. Like constantly problem solving on the go, no problem. Auto-accommodating. So this, you see yourself out in the world. I mean, I tell a story in the book about, um, I was at my hair salon in New York City and I was, they had like put a mask on my hair. So I was laying in the sink, but not doing anything. So it was gonna be in there for like 20 minutes or whatever. And all of a sudden there's a line started forming. For the sinks. And every, every person with their little robe that got online, I was more and more stressed out being like, you know, I'm just laying here.

Like, I don't even need a sink.

I feel this right now. I should move. So I raised my hand to get the assistant to come over and I'm like, you know, I could sit somewhere else. And she's like, you're good, lady, whatever. We do this every Saturday, Terry, relax. You know? But what, why does that even matter? Because let's look at just in that one scenario, what is the cost? I'm laying there on a Saturday. I could have been meditating. I could have been listening to a podcast, learning something. I could have called my fucking mother. Like there's a million things that would've poured into my cup that I could have done, but I didn't do any of those. I was too busy worrying about some shit that was not my side of the street. Trying to take responsibility for something that was not my responsibility. And it's very bad for your nervous system to do that, right? There's a hypervigilance that goes along with being a high-functioning codependent where we are so dialed into our environment, the people around us, what's happening around us. And then there's one step further of behavior where there's this thing called anticipatory— I just called it anticipatory planning, right? Cause I was going, all right, what are, what are the behaviors that people do where, you know, you're gonna maybe be with someone who's a little bit difficult and you're like making a plan to make sure, well, I know that Uncle Bob doesn't like Uncle Jimmy, make sure they don't sit near each other. I'll get the booze that they both like to drink. I'm like, I've— it's like being a puppet master rather than expecting the grown adults in your life. And of course that's from, that's from a personal experience. Like Christmas after Christmas of dealing with these two fucking uncles who didn't like each other and didn't, you know, there could be like a fight could, you know, or an argument could break out. Instead of just being like, if you two idiots can't figure it out, then one of you can't come. So figure that out between you. Instead, it's like, I would think that I had, I could control it by this anticipatory planning. And then you have the regular behaviors of over-functioning. Right. Which inspires, can inspire under-functioning in other people. So I used to say, oh, like I could take a perfectly functional boyfriend in my twenties and literally turn that guy into an under-functioner in two weeks or less. Just, right. Do you know what I mean when I say that?

I do.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Just being able to take on normal everyday things of theirs that should be functioning.

I got it. I got it. I got it. Right. When you think about what would be the mantra for a high-functioning codependent is, I got it, is it has to be me. Because other traits is that we don't trust other people to do it or to do it right. We don't want to be a burden. We don't like to be vulnerable. Are you good at asking for help?

Am I good at asking for help? I have been working on this now for a solid 2 years, so I've gotten really good. But before this, not ever, never.

Yeah. Yes. Never. That's very HFC to just be like, I just don't wanna burden. Another thing for me, certainly personally, is I didn't wanna owe anybody. Mm-hmm. Which is so weird. But why? Like, like when you really think about it, you're like, why? I'm so generous. Why, why would I, do I feel like people owe me? And if I do, then I'm doing things for the wrong reasons. Mm-hmm. Right. We have to look at the motivation. So anyway, those are some of the behaviors, some of the, um, traits that we have, but the costs are great. So do you want to tell me, tell me where you want to go from here?

Okay. So a couple of the things as I, as I was listening to that, because number one, fully identifying with all of them while I'm also thinking of all of the people in my life, you know, because we do run in packs and I'm like, oh my gosh, yes, we do. I have to get this book for everyone or just send them this podcast. So the question that came up for me is, you know, you're talking about your personality trait not changing when you start to change these, these different things. One of the things that I'm struggling with still is figuring out when it still actually feels good and when it's like just a default response from myself. So because some of these things are nice to do, and I do find myself with family though slipping into things over and over, but they don't feel as bad as they did anymore, and sometimes they feel good. So I'm kind of trying to differentiate, and maybe people listening are trying to sort that out too.

Yep. I think that one of the easiest and fastest ways to make that distinction that you're talking about, Lori, is to do a resentment inventory, right? Really think about how you feel in the relationships in your life. Are you holding onto resentment? Because so much of the time, If we are, it means we're overgiving or overfunctioning, mm-hmm, where a boundary needs to be put in place, or we need to have a hard conversation, or we need to tell the truth, or we need to set a limit, or we need to say no. But all of those things, if we're on autopilot, we're not really checking in with how do I feel about this actual thing. So two things that you guys listening can take right now, before you say yes to anything, you're gonna ask these two questions. One, do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful? That's, that's question number one before you agree to anything in 2025 and beyond. Question number two, do I even effin' want to do it? Hmm.

Ooh, that's good.

Mm-hmm. Because as HFCs, so much of the time, if someone else wants us to, it makes us feel like either we should Or it makes us kind of want to because they want us to. Yeah. And that's okay. But we really have to ask ourselves those two pertinent questions before we agree. Because the thing is, it is bad for our relationships if we stay in this state of resentment, not good for our relationships because it's cumulative. Resentment is cumulative and it becomes more and more obvious that you're resentful, the longer you're not handling it or managing it or changing it, or the longer you are self-abandoning in your mind in service, quote unquote, of your relationship. Because that shit doesn't serve anybody if you are self-abandoning. And that's different, you know, Lori, than compromising, right? And I think the distinctions are important because being in a partnership as you are, as I am for almost 30 years, it's like, obviously we are gonna compromise or we are not gonna be in long-term relationships, right? Obviously, if you're a part of a society or you have friends or you have family. So I'm not talking about compromising. Mm-hmm. I'm talking about self-abandonment is what we want to avoid. Which means if I say yes to this, am I saying no to something that I really need? Am I saying no to filling up my own cup? Because we are the only ones who can do that. But a lot of times we will overgive to other people and then sort of expect that in return, and we may not get it. And I make the distinction in the book, you know, self-care, everyone talks about self-care and self-love, and it's just, uh, I just feel like it's so convoluted at this point. It's confusing. You're like, what does it even mean? I put it all under the umbrella of self-consideration because that's what it actually is. I will consider myself first. And it doesn't mean I won't compromise. It doesn't mean I will not still sometimes do things I don't necessarily wanna do, but I will, if I'm choosing them mindfully, if I'm doing something that my husband wants to do that maybe it's not my favorite thing to do, but he is actually my favorite. And if he wants to do it and it's gonna make him happy, I with a glad heart can do it, even if it's shit I don't like, but I really like him. Do you know what I mean? So we're making—

1000%.

Right. So we're making these mindful choices. That's different than making these decisions on autopilot. So part of this process that I walk you through in the book is raising your awareness about your own behaviors. How are you interacting in your relationships right now? How do you feel in your life? Because what I've seen over the, oh, literally almost, I mean, I've been a therapist for almost 28 years. Like what, what is the cost of doing this? 'Cause I've seen it in young women and then I've seen it in women who've done it for decades, you know? And one thing that I see a lot is burnout. Mm-hmm. You're just, Fuckin' exhausted.

Exhausted.

Yes. Exhausted. And what happens is there's this cycle that I've seen. It's in the beginning when you're in HFC, we have too many fucks to give to too many people, right? For a long time, for a long time, because we're also like the Energizer bunnies where we're just like, it's okay, I got it. I could do it. I got it. I got it. You know? And then sooner or later, that cumulative impact of resentment The pendulum will swing all the way to the other side where you're just either— so what I've seen is either you just end up having a psychological and emotional crisis where you're like, I don't give a fuck about anybody. Like, I don't— none. There's none left to give. It's funny, I was, I was, uh, talking to a woman the other day. She was interviewing me for something and she was saying how she read the book, which inspired her. This was for Thanksgiving. She and her husband have family out east. She's such an HFC. She was so exhausted. But by the time the kids, whatever, his family, they already had a hotel booked. She literally said, hey, I am not going east for Thanksgiving. And he's like, all right, babe, we'll, we'll do it. It's okay. I don't care if we lose the money and we'll just stay here. She's like, nope. You're actually not invited to stay with me. I literally need to be on my couch ordering pizza every day for a fucking week by myself. Like, that's what I need. And he's like, okay, not mad. I said, how was he really? She said, actually, he said, are you sure? Is this what will— will this be good for you? And she said, I'm positive. And he was like, amazing, babe. No problem. I got the kids. Let's go. So they left. Wow. That is someone now. She did it very productively. And she had a partner who didn't take it personally cuz she's like, cuz it wasn't about him. It was about her. Now that is the pendulum swinging though, right? We're hoping, I'm walking you through the book so that hopefully we can make changes enough so that if you didn't wanna go out east for Thanksgiving, you would in July not make that plan. You would already know, I don't wanna do it. Or you would already in July tell your partner, hey, you and the kids can do that. I'd like to stay home or whatever the thing is. But that's the cycle. So wherever you are, if you're listening and you feel like either you're way over here, meaning giving too many Fs to too many people, or you're way over here and you're just so bitter at everyone, because this is, this is where we end up if there's no intervention, is we're just so mad about all the things that we've done that feel unreciprocated or that feel unappreciated. And here's, The, you know, herein lies the rub with that is that if I'm doing it to control things, I'm not doing it right. If I'm giving to control things, right? I take a hit for the team. Don't worry about it. You guys go, I'll stay home with the sick kid, or I'll stay home, whatever. If I'm doing that to avoid conflict, cuz this is one of the major things with being a high-functioning codependent, we might be high-functioning, but we're not necessarily high-conflict. We would like to not have that conflict. We are, we are always hypervigilantly thinking ahead to not have that conflict, but sooner or later you end up feeling mad. And even when people are appreciative, because we're coming from a messed up place in doing it, nobody can ever be grateful enough because that has to be an inside job. We have to do what's right for ourselves. We can't like delegate that, or we can't farm that out, right? So anyway, what ends up happening for people is you're living what I call life lite, like L-I-T-E, because you're so— 50% of life we're in our head thinking about other people, thinking about what people need and is it gonna be okay? And like, think about how much, you know, you personally, Lori, about the people in your life. Mm-hmm. Who doesn't eat gluten? Who had a terrible breakup? Who doesn't, who hasn't watched Ted Lasso? Who doesn't like, you know what I mean? Who can't stand small talk? Who doesn't like warm weather? Who, each one of us has a stadium of data in our mind about the people in our life. And yet most of us, if you're an HFC, don't have the same expectation that others will know all of those things about us because we barely even prioritize those things. You know what I mean? So anyway, I do know we're not fully present and it just doesn't— life is just about half as juicy as it should be because it's exhausting. Burnout, health problems, bitterness, and just not fully self-expressed. So you're not known in your relationships cuz you're too busy with your attention outward.

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It's time to turn those what-ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com/happy. Go to shopify.com/happy. That's shopify.com/happy. I would say, as you're talking, one of the things that I really felt in the past, which I can tell you I feel— I don't feel recovered, I feel fully aware. So now I feel very, um, I'll just say where I am now. I'm very happy in my life. I'm extremely happy in my relationships. I I still can default to this for sure. But the thing that I noticed before I really understood this concept and started working on it was I thought that I was somebody who just didn't like people, and I thought there was something wrong with me. I was like, I don't know, I don't really get a lot of joy from people. Like, I had my husband and he was my best friend, and I'm sure we had our own little weird codependent system going on. We did, for sure. But, but I think both of us really were like, do people just suck? And no. So I kind of want to talk about how I can go from thinking that everyone sucks and not really having good girlfriends to truly being like, I'm such a girl's girl. I go on girls trips now all the time. I do girls masterminds. Like, I'm so fulfilled. All I wanna do now is be around friends. And it's truly because I have stopped trying to control people, fix them, worrying about them. Like they cannot like me. Now don't get me wrong, I still feel all the emotions, but everything that you just said, this is such a process, but that's totally changed. Have you found that with people that they can like, like everyone changes in their life all of a sudden?

Oh yeah. Because the thing is, as Wayne Dyer said many decades ago, when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. Mm-hmm. So what happens is people didn't change. You changed, right? In my life, people didn't change. I changed, and then my relationships changed, and then how I felt changed. So I think part of it is understanding what is on my side of the street and what is not on my side of the street. What am I responsible for? What am I not responsible for? So let, let's, let's look at some solutions, like how people can, can move away from being HFCs to being more interdependent in their relationships, because that's really what we're looking for. Part of it is instead of the auto-advice-giving piece, I mean, listen, you're already raising your awareness by listening to this podcast. Go get the book. Like you're raising your awareness that there's some behaviors you would like to change. That's step number one. But being really aware, if you only changed one thing and this was it, it would change your life. Instead of auto-advice giving, you learn to ask expansive questions. Hmm. So your friend comes to you, she's in a crisis. Before you say a word of what you think maybe she should do, you say, all right babe, let's start with, What do you think you should do? And then just shut up. If she says, I don't know, say, okay, if you did know, what do you think? What, what does your gut say? Let's talk about it. How does it feel that you're experiencing this? Like, and I say to people, because here's the thing, what you think is way more important than what I think, because it's your life, but I'm here. You wanna brainstorm? I'm here. And, and Listen, if you've set yourself up, and I have, of course, I've been a therapist for so long, obviously I've set myself up as someone that people ask, ask my opinion on things, but it's never the first stop on the bus now for me. And even with children, right? A kid goes to school, they're 7 years old, they have a problem at school, they come back, "I had a fight with Billy today." Instead of being like, "We don't fight in this family," you go, "Tell me what happened." Let 'em tell you. Then you say, okay, what do you think you should do now? And stop talking. So, cuz what ends up happening, Lori, and I think we talked about this the last time I was on here, I think, did we talk about what happened with my sister the last time we were here? No, it was one of the main stories.

Refresh us.

I will. I, I could do it quick, but it's one of the main stories in the book because it's literally where this concept of high-functioning codependency actually came from, was my experience with one of my sisters. So I'm the youngest of 4 sisters and one of my older sisters had a history of bad relationships. She was a, she was an alcoholic. She was involved with a guy who was doing drugs. They were literally living in a shack in the woods with no running water and no electricity. And he was abusive. So that's just an HFC's nightmare, right? Yes. Right.

That's your worry every day.

Mm-hmm. Of course. And wanting to control, I mean, I couldn't do anything. I mean, I had so much going on in my life, but the only thing I could think about was like, got to get her outta there. Just gotta do it. So with my ther— I remember going to my therapist I'd been talking about it for weeks. I was bawling my eyes out crying. What am I gonna— and I remember saying, Bev, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? And she said, Terri, let me, let me ask you something. What makes you think you know what lessons your sister needs to learn in this life and how she needs to learn them? Hmm.

That's so good.

And I was like, ah, listen, I think we could both agree it doesn't have to be with this piece of shit in the woods, right? With no fucking running water. You know? And she was like, I would love to, but I can't agree because I'm not God. And neither are you. So do you know what's happening for you? I was like, obviously not. So fill me in. And she said, listen, you've worked so hard to create this harmonious life for yourself through lots of therapy. Your sister's dumpster fire of a life is like fucking with your peace, basically. And you just would like to fix it so your pain will end. I was like, she is not wrong. That's a fact. I want it to be fixed so I can go back to my happy friggin life. I just got married. Like, I was a bonus mom for the first time for 3 teenage kids. Like, I had, I was busy. I had shit going on. But the realization and what, what she helped me do, she was like, you need to have boundaries. You don't need to talk to her about this abusive guy every day. Like, you know, have boundaries. So anyway, I had a hard conversation with my sister. Basically saying, hey, I love you and I cannot talk about this. If and when you ever wanna get out though, I'll always be your person. Call me. So within 9 months, we probably only talked like 2 or 3 times in that period of time. But then she finally called and said, hey, I'm ready. Are you still my person? I was like, fucking yes, I am. Jumped in my car, went and picked her up. And the most important aspect of this story is that instead of her baby sister being the hero of her story. She gets to be the hero of her own story. She got sober, she went back to school. She's never been— that was decades ago. She's never been in another abusive relationship, like long-term sobriety. All of those things are hers, not mine. And when you're in HFC, what you don't realize you're doing is you're inserting yourself You're centering yourself as the solution to other people's problems. And that was so painful for me to really realize, because honestly, it's not that I thought I was Mother Teresa, it's just that I really thought that I was doing it all from love, right? And what I really got was a lot of it was control. I wanted her to get her shit together so I could get on with my happy. Life, please. You are really interrupting my happy life.

You know, that's the part right there that like, I'm, you know, I'm thinking about an instance in my life right now where it's, it's like, there's, I think for a lot of people, if they have this and have experienced what you just said, um, there's a lot of anger there. Like, you are fucking up my life. Like, it's like, I'm very angry with this particular person because this very selfish action It's hard for me to pull away from it because it does really affect our family and our life. So, yeah, how do you deal with that resentment? But also, it's kind of like, I want to be there for them and make sure they have the therapy or whatever they need, but also stay out of it, you know?

But boundaries, right? So if we're looking at what are the fixes, what do we have to do? To get into recovery from HFC. Raise your awareness. Second thing is boundaries. And so they need to make sure they're in therapy, not you. I mean, unless they're a minor, which it doesn't sound like they are. So already that's not your side of the street, right? You, you, they need to, because here's the thing. What my therapist also explained to me with that thing with my sister, she's like, Terry, every intervention that you do, every bit of money that you're throwing at that, every book you send, You're probably getting in the way of your sister reaching the bottom that she needs to reach to make a change. Like, you're literally prolonging this hell, right? Like, by inserting yourself and being like, "I can help make it better." But it doesn't. It just keeps it going. So, that was a real awakening. And I think that we have to also take responsibility for what we're doing. If that person— is choosing. Whether it's like, I felt like with my sister, listen, she's an addict. So am I. I'm in recovery, right? Like, so I knew I didn't feel like she was choosing it like willy-nilly, but I also knew that she was the only one who could change it. You can't get into recovery for people. You cannot have, you can't do the work, right? So you can't go to the gym for someone so they don't have diabetes. Like, right? We, we can't do that. And I think that really moving into surrendering to what is, is, can be very difficult for a high-functioning codependent. Mm-hmm. And yet it is absolutely key to maintaining our own peace. Mm-hmm. And realizing you don't know what everyone should be doing.

Mm-hmm.

Remember what Bev said, what makes you think you know? What lessons that person needs to learn and how they need to learn them in this lifetime. Nobody could have told me. I learned everything the hard way on my own because that's the only way I could have done it. Right? Someone could have been like, you should do whatever it is. I, I needed to do it my own way. So my, and I would resent someone being like, I know what you should do. Really? You do not. Know what I should do. And what makes you think, right? It's, it's like presumptuous of me to think that I knew. And not just with my sister, but with every frigging person in my life. I thought I knew what everyone should be doing. Just spending life yum yucking. I talk about in the book where we're just like approving and disapproving endlessly all day long about everything from whether that skirt goes with those boots or whether I think their long-term relationship is gonna work. Like, Oh my God, stop judging. It's so exhausting. Exhausting.

It's tough for the high functioners because we have the resources and we can typically know how to come up with money if money's an issue. If, uh, you know, oh, you don't have access to this person, let me try to get access to this person. When does that start to, like, it's kind of like, at what point do you offer that help? Help, but then the, the guilt that can come when you're somebody who has more than others because you're so capable. Um, can we talk about how you deal with the guilt associated and the selfish feeling of, well, I know how to do this and they don't?

Yep. But again, what makes— that's not your side of the street. True. Even, even though they don't, right? It's like, how will they learn? And just like with kids, When parents are like, I don't know why they don't know anything. You're like, cuz you never let them learn anything. That's why. Cuz you were so afraid for them to have one negative thought, one negative feeling that you are jumping in and going to the principal or talking to the teacher or talking to that kid's parents. Like never teaching kids how to actually work shit out on their own is not helpful. And that's the parent's fear. And that's what the parent is doing. I feel like feeling guilty. Like you need to look at your own relationship to your abundance. Right? One of my friends is a, is an energy work expert type person. Her name is Laura Ruggiero and she always does this thing. She does muscle testing in groups. Mm-hmm. And she has you say, it's okay for me to have more money than my friends, my family, and the poor. Mm. Wow. And most people go weak, right? When you're muscle testing that. And the thing is, it actually is okay. For you to have more money than your friends, your family, and the poor. You can choose to set up a trust fund. You can choose to do a nonprofit. You can choo— like, there's lots of things. I can choose to help my sister's kids go to college. Like, there's many ways, many things we can do with our money if you have it. But I think that just the guilt that can be associated and the feeling like, I don't want that person to suffer. But I want you to look at that person's suffering as their growth path. Mm-hmm. Right? And when you start switching your combo, Lori, and maybe you already have, but when you start switching to, what do you think you should do? Mm. You're gonna have a lot less guilt because you're gonna be in much more rich conversations with people because you are now gonna give them the most expensive coin you can ever spend, which is your time and attention. Rather than like trying to check a box and like I was trying to do with my sister, like, ah, I just need to get this thing fixed. You know, being able to say, what do you think you should do? And listen, expansive conversations, give someone the floor and actually give them the floor. And is there more? Is there something else you wanna say about that? Then what do you think would happen? Like, we can become really great conversationalists. When we move from thinking, even if it's unconscious, that we're responsible for what happens. Because what we're doing is projecting what we would want in life onto that person, thinking we know what they need, and we really don't. We really don't. So how do you deal with the guilt was your question. And I think that I would ask you to not run away from it. I would ask you to journal about it and say why. Hmm. We all make choices in this life. We, you got gifts and you got deficiencies. I got gifts and I got deficiencies, right? It's like whoever you're talking about, they got gifts and they got deficiencies. Mm-hmm. And it's like their path to get on or to be on. And again, I'm not saying like, My husband and I helped my sister after, right? We had this little shabby little lake house thing, like in upstate New York. It's like a camp, they call it, you know, not nothing, not, not fancy, but we winterized it quick and just let her live there free for 2 years and paid all the bills just so she could, you know, get her on her feet, get a job, make some money. That's appropriate. I knew I could do that without being resentful. Because I knew if she was safe, it wouldn't be obsessing my mind, right? I knew that just give her space to do what she needed to do.

Yeah.

And I asked her, how can I best support you? Right? Just ask your people what you can do, if anything, because part of it is, again, we take over a lot of times being an HFC, we're just people who are in charge. We're just in control of things in life. And we're sort of like, just get it done. 'Cause that's the way we function. And yet when we're getting it done for someone else, we are on the wrong side of the street and we need to back up. So anytime you think— here, here's another clue that could be helpful. Anytime in your mind you say, well, I don't want them to think, hmm, whatever it is, or I don't want them to feel whatever it is, then I want you to back your hiney up onto your own side of the street because What they think and feel is their side of the street. What you think and feel is yours. So you have to surrender to what is and realize that, you know, um, Cheryl Richardson wrote a book called Let Me Disappoint You. And we really need to learn that sometimes in healthy relationships, we're going to disappoint people because if not, We will be self-abandoning. And any relationship that is built on your regular self-abandonment is not a healthy relationship. You will only end up resentful. You will only end up somehow having a rupture in that relationship because we can only do that for so long.

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Hmm.

Do you think it's ever appropriate to have this conversation with some people? Like, like, I'm gonna show up differently because here's what I've been attaching into, here's what I've been spiraling out with you. What is that useful, or is it better to just kind of start minding your own business?

You know, it's funny. I, I think it depends on the situation, but as HFCs, we really want to kind of grab the bullhorn and make an announcement because we would like to manage all the expectations immediately.

Yes, I would.

We just want everyone to know.

The follow. I'm managing the follow.

Exactly. So my feeling is I don't think it's that helpful because the thing is when you change your behavior, when you just, even if you just start with, and I'm curious to know, you have to text me, you have to let me know. Okay. Because I know you've already been on this path, but really consciously, not auto-advice giving, really consciously asking people what they think they should do and being supportive of them in that way. I'd be curious to see how your relationships change because here's the thing, people won't even, you know, they might in the beginning resist, right? Because we're changing the dance, as Harriet Lerner talks about, like relationships are a dance. And so you're doing a different move, and they're gonna kind of be like, "Hello, normally I come to you and then you tell me what to do. Why are you not doing that?" So, you know, you have to sort of stand your ground in not doing the old dance. And if they say, "Well, why won't you tell me what you think?" And you could say, you know, because what I've realized that the truth is that what you think about what you should do is just infinitely more important than what I think. Cuz it's not about getting it right. It's about getting it right for you. Mm-hmm. And only you can do that. Mm. Like, so I feel like it's okay to talk about it if, if someone pushes back and goes, I don't get this. And even if they say, I don't know. I love saying to people, how can I best support you right now? You wanna watch a movie? You wanna talk? You wanna not? You wanna shop? Do you wanna go have a cup of tea? Like, this creates this expansion for people to let us know what makes them feel loved or what makes them feel supported. Mm-hmm. You know, and I think that there, there's also something that, it's funny, I, I, I had no idea that Mel was writing a whole book on the let them thing. Right. I didn't, I actually didn't know it, but she had talked about it like, I don't know, 3 years ago maybe. And I included it in this book just saying, you know, just her quote about let them, because I had my own sort of version of it, different but similar. But I, I just credited her, her to it. And what that, how, how I look at it from an HFC standpoint is that when someone is doing something that I kind of wanna be like, like, oh, there's a better way to do that, or there's a different way I think you should do that. I say in my mind, let them. Mm-hmm. Fucking, and for me, I used to always say, let them live, right? Just can let them live. If, if it's a mistake, it's their mistake to make. And I always point to this thing, my mother, it's funny that I, I came all full circle around to writing this book with these concepts is my mother had this quote on her refrigerator always from Irma Bombeck, probably from Gottlieb, 1972, that said, I promise not to take credit for your accomplishments if you promise not to blame me for your failures. Mm.

That's really good.

Right? Which is basically the parent's version of not being a high-functioning codependent. Wow. And that planted seeds so long ago. I mean, I remember seeing it in high school, I think, where I was like, What does that mean? I remember asking her and her saying exactly that, Tara, your life is your life and I'm here to support you, but your decisions are your own. And I was like, wow, how you doing? I'm 19. Are you sure?

You're like, do they have to be?

I know.

I just wanna give 'em to you.

Please.

Oh my gosh. What do you think in, in conclusion of all of this? Cuz we could talk about, there's so many layers we could talk about. Family, relationships, siblings. I mean, on and on and on.

Which I do cover in the book. All those things.

Everything, which I love. You guys, this book is so in-depth of— I have found every single scenario in my life. You've, you've given it an answer in this book. So I promise you, there's not a problem that you're having that is not seen and discussed and given a tool. In this book. So, and I love it. It's, it's so great. It's very, even though it's complex, it's very simple to understand.

Yes, it is.

Um, and your different situations and scenarios that you describe as well. But let's give people some just ideas of what comes out of doing a little bit of this work.

Oh, so much more expansion, joy, abundance. But such a deepening. The real thing is a deepening in relationships.

A million per cent.

Right? Because now you're really starting to not just know the people in your life differently, you are allowing them to know you differently. When you're not over-functioning so much, when you actually make the simple request about what you need, when you actually allow people to help you, either even ask for help. It's like you're seen and loved and celebrated in this different way. And the people in your life, what you're gonna find too is that you will have so many people in your life who are like, this is so amazing to like know you in this way, in a real way. And then you're gonna have some people that when you change the dance, they're not that into the new you.

Yep.

And that's okay. We can, we can sort of step back. This is where boundaries come in, where it doesn't mean we, we should cut off from all those people. No, it just means we need to have that VIP section, like, and make decisions about who gets to be really close to your most tender heart. And it's gotta be people who are emotionally trustworthy. You know, cuz not everyone deserves to be in that VIP section.

No. And, you know, if people are like, oh God, I hate that confrontation of like people leaving or what that looks like, I will say that what happens on the flip side with your, the positive relationships, it's like the contrast is so extreme of how beautiful it is that it actually hurts less because you, once you realize how good it can get, those other ones, you just don't really want them in your life. And those people are, yes, They're now so, so much more supportive and loving that you almost don't— you almost start to not really care because you have these other people in your corner and you're not going to lose them because they see you, they know you.

They—

it's people that won't leave. And Terri, I feel like for the first time in the last— you know, I told my husband my 30s were just like kind of just all this, your whole book, figuring that out. And I feel like 40 was the first time I really started to like show up to my life. Like I understood what life was about in relationships. And it's from, it's from this, like what your book is teaching. So.

It's so beautiful. And there is so much for you on the other side of getting into recovery from this. And the last thing I wanna say about it, two things, is that you deserve it. What an incredible gift, an honor, and a privilege that we get to be alive on this earth. On earth at this moment in time, even with all the strife that's going on. Like, it's, it's a gift that you're here and to be fully present. You cannot be living with codependent relationships in this way. Mm-hmm. And you deserve to have all the adventure and all the expansion and all the joy, and you deserve to be known. And the thing is, if you don't get into recovery, then you're never gonna contribute Cuz one last thing I will say that I've seen over and over again in 30 years as a therapist is that this behavior creates a glass ceiling of our own making when it comes to business success, entrepreneurial success, relationship success, because you can't do both. We can't serve the people-pleasing vibe and also be who we actually are because we're not that. That's about manipulation and control and making sure every— appeasing people. So, so this is different, right? And you can't do both. So it's really like the quality of your life depends on it. And I wanted to give you guys a gift to make it easy besides the book. That is my gift to you too. But, um, you can, I created just a little HFC toolkit cuz I know it can be overwhelming when you start this process and you're like, well, where do I even start? You just, you can go to terricole.com/hfc. To get it, and there'll be a link to purchase the book there as well.

Amazing. And you guys, we're going to link that up in the show notes too, so you can just go down there, which I love because those are, those are quick things. The gift is a quick thing that you can go and do and, um, learn from right away, which always feels good to our, our little dopamine receptors.

Indeed.

Exactly. We get to learn fast. But truly, like, such a gift. So much work has gone into this book. Like, yes.

Yes.

So much work. I'm so grateful that you wrote it. Let me see if I can get my husband to read it. If not, I'm just gonna, you know, kind of read him things in the morning through it.

That's right. You'll start. All you gotta do, and you're doing it, is you start changing your dance. And trust me, your hubs is the first one to, to notice the change. And so much of the time, just my husband just kind of rolls with it. He's like, okay, I guess we're doing this now. I mean, he's pretty therapized, but it's helpful.

That's probably me again wanting to help everyone, but there we go. Okay, so I'll do it with your book. We'll do that one good deed and then we'll let it go. We'll let it go. That's okay. I'm so grateful for you. Thank you so much for coming on, you guys. Like I said, everything is linked up in show notes. And one of the most fun gifts we can give to Terri is to screenshot this podcast and let her know what your biggest takeaway was. It's always fun to to just know, like, what impacted them, what hit on this podcast, and give her a tag. Terri, what's your Instagram?

Just @terricole. T-E-R-R-I-C-O-L-E.

Perfect. And we'll link that up too. And thank you so much again for coming on the show. We're so grateful for you. And you guys, definitely go and grab this book. It is life-changing. There is not a person who has not experienced something like this in this book that will totally affect your year and give you more space and more energy. So you guys, until next time, earn your happy. Bye everyone.