The 4 Phases to Get Unstuck and Take Action When You Encounter A Setback with Amy Shoenthal

For people who are in it right now, it does feel like you can't get out. Like, I couldn't see a way out. It wasn't until I started exploring why this could have happened for me and, like, really asking that question. This is actually going to take you to where you want to go if you ask the right questions and view it the right way. Amy, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited about this.

All right, guys. For those of you listening, I am holding her book. I'm very excited about it. It is called the Setback Cycle. How Defining Moments Can Move Us Forward. I don't typically jump right into the book and the book title, Amy, but when I got this in the mail, because I knew you were coming on, I'm so in this topic in my life right now and, like, coming off of a massive setback, which I just told you about, and I'm emerging on the other side, so I now can see all of the reasons why I went through that setback. So this book, for anybody who's in it right now, maybe you're at the beginning, maybe you're in the middle, maybe you're at the end. We are going to talk about the neuroscience of setbacks. We're going to talk about all of the people historically who have had setbacks. We're going to talk about why you wrote this book. So let's. Let's dive in there. I just want to start with, you know, you do a lot of interviews. You do a lot of writing for Forbes. I know that you do a lot of writing for other things as well. Typically, you get to hear about everybody's journey. Tell me about why you wrote about this and also your journey of setbacks.

Yes. So much to dive into. I'll start with why I dove into this particular topic. So, as you said, I have been interviewing founders and leaders and visionaries for the better part of the past, you know, more than a decade. I don't think it's 20 years yet, but we're creeping up on that. And when you do something enough times, when you repeat something, you start to notice patterns and themes and trends. And I kept noticing through all of my interviews that when every founder started talking about their journey to whatever successful thing they created, they really lit up and started getting excited to tell me about the moment they picked themselves up after a setback. And I observed it, and I started to think, oh, maybe this is just like learning from your mistakes. But it wasn't always a mistake of their own, and it wasn't always a trauma. So it wasn't really under the category of post traumatic growth, but it was similar. And so I kept digging in and I started interviewing psychologists and neuroscientists and executive coaches, and I tried to understand what this phenomenon was that I was seeing. And that's how I landed on the term setbacks, because everything I was seeing was a setback. The true definition of that word is a reversal or check in progress. So it could be a mistake of your own. It could be a cultural, societal issue that bumps you backwards. It could be getting fired, getting laid off from a job, losing funding for a business. But that's really the category I wanted to explore because it's when you're on a path forward and you're just unexpectedly thrown off course and you have to find a new path. And that's. It's painful and it's not fun and it's not easy, but it is where the growth and the excitement happens.

You know, I'm thinking it as a whole, sometimes when I was thinking of setbacks, it can really feel like individualized. But when I've looked at all of the people I've gotten to chat with as well, and just even my life cycle, it's like, setbacks can be things. Like, there's some stuff going on in my family right now that feels like a setback to me because it feels like the energy kind of like stops. You're like, I have these things that feel like they're hurdles or blocks. So setbacks can be outside of yourself. So I guess my first question from that. Can we keep progressing when there are continual setbacks in our lives, into the science? But yes.

Okay, you might find yourself not only in one setback cycle, but in a setback cyclone of many setbacks at once. I mean, truly, this happens to so many people where they're working through a major one, and then some smaller ones come up along that journey. Because figuring out the path forward is not easy and it's not linear and it's not straightforward. You kind of have to trip a little bit and figure things out Again, it's growth, which can be uncomfortable, but it's also exciting. And so many people, when they either read the book or when they listen to me talk about it, all of a sudden they start connecting the dots of experiences that they've had in their own lives. And once you see your own life experiences through the lens of setbacks, you really gain a whole new perspective on it, and it helps you the next time you're going through the setback cycle because you realize, hey, I worked through that one. I can work through this one. And that's really powerful.

So I love that you said setback cycle or cyclone. I've had moments for sure in my life. How do we determine between. Is it a mindset when we're like, oh, my God, I just keep getting hit with things, or is this just life? That's the place I'm at right now is going. Is this life that there's just always going to be setbacks? And do I view something as a setback, or do I just view this as normal problems? Now that I'm really deep in the entrepreneurship game, what are your thoughts on that?

I think it's so specific to yourself as a person, what you're going through, what you put into something. I mean, a setback is personal. And what might be a setback to me might be a gift to you. So everyone could view a situation very differently. You know, think of like a co founder breakup that could be devastating to someone, and then in someone else's story, that's just a gift and a wonderful thing because, you know, they've outgrown their partnership and they part ways very delicately and carefully and elegantly. And then on the other end of the spectrum, that can go very badly and. And be like a messy divorce. You know what I mean? And so you really can't categorize a certain type of setback because it's so specific to the individual experiencing it. What I will say is that, you know, this is such a universal experience. So while my setback might look very different than yours, we all go through the same cycle, whether we want to admit it or not, whether we try to ignore it or try to, you know, sort of burst through it, we're all going through the same cycle. So it's kind of best to acknowledge it and understand it and work through it as, I don't want to say productively, because that feels kind of icky, but as. As intentionally or thoughtfully as you. As you possibly can.

Well, this is what we're going to chat about because you have a framework for it. But first, can we do a little bit of a dive into the neuroscience that you have learned about what happens to our br things during a setback?

Yes. So as I kept seeing this over and over, I started to wonder, you know, is this biological? Why does it seem so universal? And I was actually listening to a Podcast, and they were interviewing a neuroscientist. And this was before the days of, like, Huberman being the, you know, know, all be all of, like, where everyone gets their information. And I also kind of wanted to talk to a woman because I thought she might have an interesting perspective, because most of the founders I profile are women leaders. And I found a woman named Chantal Pratt. She lives in the Pacific Northwest, and she is a neuroscientist. She wrote the Neuroscience of you, which is a fantastic book. I learned so much. But what she told me was she was able to prove in her lab that people who have encountered multiple setbacks over the course of their lives are better at problem solving, reasoning, and learning because it kind of makes sense once you really start to dive into it. So our brains command center. It's called the basal ganglia, and it's the area of our brain where the learning takes place. But if you think about the way our brains work, we are always chasing rewards and avoiding an experience that we think will be negative or uncomfortable. And so you've heard of like, the. The dopamine hit and the dopamine dip. And so we're always chasing that dopamine hit and we're always avoiding the dips. However, in the dopamine dips, which is usually what you feel when you are undergoing a setback, particularly the more painful ones, when you feel that dopamine dip, your brain does not want to experience it again. So it wants to do everything in its power to avoid that negative experience again. And that is why you learn so much from the negative experiences, from the setbacks. Your brain is literally changing because. So what happens in Basil ganglia is it. It takes information from past experiences, and it uses that information to dictate future actions. And that's as simple as, like a physical action. You know, I know if I step this way, it's going to be painful, or step this way, it's going to, you know, work out. You know what I mean? Like, just like to the very basic physical movements that you make. But it also, you know, it goes back to, oh, like, I had this dynamic in a relationship and it was painful. And now I seem to be experiencing that again and it's bringing up that other memory, right? It's. I mean, it's a trigger. That's what it's called. And so you kind of. You want to avoid that. And that's why we learn more from setbacks than we do successes. And it makes sense because when everything's going well, you're less motivated to change what you're doing or try to improve because hey, we're good. Let's just keep going on the same train. Why not? But when things aren't going well, you have to course correct. You have to get creative, you have to innovate and you have to figure something new out. And more often than not, at least in the stories that I have heard, people tell me that they get to a place that is so much better than the original path they were on. So it's the setback that leads to that new creative venture or innovation or thing that most people are very excited to talk about.

I was just telling you about this right before we got on telling you about my setback and how I'm so grateful for it now because I don't think I would have stumbled upon. It's not even stumbling. I really think it was always on the path. But I had to go through what I went through to learn in order to come up with what I've come up with and what I'm so passionate about now that feels way more aligned. So let's talk about for the people. We're going to jump into the framework in a second or maybe this will take us into the framework. But there are definitely people that you and I have talked to in our lives. With the holidays and the new year coming, you probably are looking around your house thinking that you would love to upgrade and freshen up your environment. And there is no easier way to do that than with your window treatments. Nobody covers windows better than blinds.com blinds.com brings your space to life in your way. They have free design help. Other retailers may claim to have experts, but blinds.com has spent nearly 30 years building an award winning team of over 100 design consultants that are ready to help you create your dream space. Always convenient, always tailored to you. Three ways to shop 1. Perfect fit Whether you want to DIY have it all done for you or you're somewhere in between, choose what works for you and rest easy knowing the fit is guaranteed. So the holidays come fast, you guys, and you can freshen up your window treatments fast as well. And unlike some competitors, the price you see is the price you pay. No hidden fees and there's zero pressure. From blackout in motorized options to classic shutters, blinds.com has windowed treatments for every room, style and budget, even shades for your outdoor space. The Black Friday deals@blinds.com are going strong all month long, so don't miss your chance to save big. And as always, our listeners still get $50 off when you spend $500 or more. Just use code earn at checkout. Limited time offer rules and restrictions apply. See blinds.com for details. 2026 is the year that you launch your business. It's the year that you've become the boss. You become the leader. That ide have that has been eating at you forever, that just will not leave you alone is going to come to life. Maybe it's something that someone tells you you should always sell or a store you've already designed in your head. And with Shopify, 2026 is when you finally make it happen. Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person. Millions of entrepreneurs have already made this leap from household name to first time business owners. Just getting started, you guys. I use Shopify for glossy and I remember when they sent me my little shopping bag celebrating my 10,000 sales and I literally cried because I was so scared to take the leap. And I'm so glad that I did and that I use Shopify. It gives you all the tools to easily build your dream store. You can choose from hundreds of beautiful templates that you can customize to match your brand. Set up as fast with Shopify's built in AI tools that write product descriptions and headlines and help you edit photos. So marketing is built in too. You can create email and social campaigns that reach customers wherever they scroll. So as you grow, Shopify grows with you. You can handle more orders, expand to new markets and do it all from the same dashboard. In 2026, stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com happy. Go to shopify.com happy that's shopify.com happy. Hear your first cha ching this new year with Shopify by your side. Who get the setback but can't work out of it. They see it, it was like they, you know, touched the hot stove, but they can't work through it. And even though it's something that they should like look at and, and learn from, maybe they're avoiding the very thing that they need in order to get through the setback. So what's the difference between the people who get to say, oh my God, I'm so much better for this on the other side and the people who just seem to stay stuck.

There are so many things that can contribute to this. One of them I'll talk about. It's called the spiral of blame or shame. So many people look at a setback and they Just feel such shame. They completely retreat within and they. All the self doubt creeps up and they tell themselves they're not worthy. You know, all, all the horrible things that we say to ourselves. You know, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the concept of the inner critic, but the inner critic gets very loud. And one of the things you can actually do if you're feeling this spiral of shame, number one, just try to give yourself grace. You are going through a setback and we do not give ourselves enough grace. But also, and this is a psychological concept, it's not just a funny thing I made up. Name your inner critic. Give it a name, give it a visual, give it a whole personality. So my inner critic, her name is Mama Rozzi. So I'm from Long island and I feel like the visual of Mama Rozzi, her nickname is Roz, by the way. So good old Roz creeps up in my brain, tells me I'm not worthy of, you know, publishing a book or interviewing this person or writing this article or whatever. You know, big thing I'm doing that, you know, feels a little like, wow, I got to this point and Roz comes up and she's like smoking a cigarette with her raspy voice and she's going, who do you think you are? Get in the backyard here. You know what I mean? It's that, that, like, neighbor just like, wants to kind of keep you in that place that they know you as and doesn't really want to foster your growth or your evolution. So mine is Roz. And she just like, tells me to retreat back to the person I was before I encountered any growth or success or anything along those lines. It's kind of fun to name the inner critic and it helps disarm them because when you see it for what it is, it gives it less power.

It, like, it separates you from thinking that's who you are to creating this. Like, oh, that's just what I'm experiencing right now. Like, this is what's happening. I absolutely got to a place where the setback, like, was taking me down for a while. And it was like, what am I doing? I'm not smart enough. I can't believe I was so foolish to think that just because I've accomplished a couple things that now I can go do something totally different. Like, it was bad for a while.

Yeah, we all go through that.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, mine was definitely Roz Feels really appropriate trying to pull.

Yeah, you can have Roz too. She can be like, whatever version of Your, you know, childhood friend who was yelling at you to get back in the backyard or something. Yes.

Oh, my God. Okay, so let's talk about the four phase framework that you have for people to be able to kind of run themselves through. Of course, you guys need to get this book because you're gonna be able to just grab it and go to whatever chapter you're in. Also learn about so many other people. There's such incredible interviews in here that say, hey, if you don't believe me, listen to story after story after story. And what I love about the book is that you break down exactly like, the different phases that they were in and what they went through. So you can find yourself in any story. So let's start with phase one, which you talk about, establish. Tell me all about this.

Establishing that we are in a setback. It's not always as intuitive as one may think, which was, I think, the biggest surprise that came up in all of the research I did over the years. So many of us just sleepwalk into setbacks. We move along because of inertia, because it's easier to just continue floating along. And we do it because of, you know, sometimes laziness, because we don't want to make a conscious choice to improve, to be better, to challenge ourselves in new ways. So many of us find ourselves floating along, and then at some point we wake up and we say, why didn't I leave that job earlier? Why didn't I leave that marriage earlier? And you look back and one of the biggest regrets people have is, like, not starting their business earlier and not ending a relationship earlier. It's wild. It. I mean, that's just anecdotal through all the people I've interviewed. But establishing you're in a setback, you have to name it to tame it. That's a thing, you know, and that there's a reason that's a thing. Others obviously kind of knock you over the head and make it very clear that you're in a setback. And so for some, the established phases laid out very clearly, and for others, it can take years, decades to realize that you're in a setback. So the cycle is not the same for everyone.

What are some signs that you've seen where you're like, oh, girl, you're in a setback and you don't even know it. So what are some things we could maybe ask ourselves around, you know, because like you said, naming it, we can get through it faster. So what are some things that you've.

Seen go to Your community and how many know, how many times have you been in a situation where someone leaves their partner and you say finally. And they're like, wait, what? You knew? Or maybe you've been that person and then everyone around you is like, yeah, we never really like that person anyway. And you're like, wait, what? Or yeah, we were waiting for you to leave that job. These are just two common examples. But sometimes the people around you see you a little more clearly than you see yourself. And so I would find Adam Grant, who's an organizational psychologist and well known author. He says he's in the book as well. And he says you should find a challenge network. So you have to have your hype people, the people that are just like rah, rah here for you. Do you, do you, we're here, we're behind you no matter what. But also find the people who are gonna tell you that maybe they don't think something is a good decision for you. They're going to tell you if something you're doing could be better. Make sure you're clear. You know, that can be, that can be a little tricky. But I really think that people see your situation more clearly than you do so often. And another clue is if someone is saying or you find yourself saying, oh, it's fine, it's fine. Others have it worse. You know, I can, I can deal with this. It's, it's really fine. If you're saying it's fine too many times you're trying to convince yourself that it's fine and it's, it's not, you're probably not convincing anyone around you, but you're not ready to. That's the other thing. If someone has established that they're in a setback or someone is in a setback and they're not at the established phase yet, they just might not be ready to acknowledge the moment they're in. Okay.

These are great questions to ask yourself. It's hard to go, it's hard to go to a community or create a community, but it is super powerful to be able to hear those things. What about times? Where have you ever asked your community and maybe something didn't feel true? How did you decide? I don't think they're right on that or I don't think this feels right. Has anything like that happened for you?

Of course. I mean, you have to trust your gut. I think sometimes it can be really uncomfortable when someone says something that you know to be true but you wish it wasn't. Yeah. And when someone Says something that, like, is totally out of left field. You, you feel it in your gut and you know it might be annoying, it might make you not feel great, but when you know it's not true, it doesn't affect you in the same way. And your gut feeling will I, I think, be the judge of that. And in the book, I have an exercise in the established phase. It's called the Alarm Clock Checklist, and it is intended to wake you up if you think you're drifting into a setback. It has a few components to it, but two of the questions that you can really ask yourself are, what is energizing me and lighting me up right now? And what am I disengaged with? If you just kind of like, weave those two questions, I don't know if you into your journaling practice, if you have one, or even just like, as a weekly or monthly check in, you might be able to see some patterns and, and decide whether or not you're in a setback. It's also a great tool to, you know, if you have some answers that surprise you. You might be worried you're heading into a setback, but then you go through this exercise and you realize how engaged you actually are in your work, in your life.

So, okay, so question, question around that. Because I've had a couple times in my life where it's almost like my attitude was in a setback, even though I was in something that I, I just, like, still enjoyed. But I think that sometimes we need that adjustment. Are there times in your life where you've been in something where you've realized, like, okay, I actually really love what I do. I just need to get re engaged in what I do. Like, how do we know the difference between if we should stay in the thing, like, stay in what could feel like a setback, or if we're just needing an attitude adjustment about it that.

Is so, so, so personal to the person in the situation. But I will say so I can talk a little bit about my setback, which I absolutely did this. I said, it's fine, it's fine. Others have it worse. And I sleepwalked into my setback and I stayed there for years. Years. So I was at a corporate job, I worked at a marketing firm, and I loved it. And it was very like Mad Men era. Like, there were a lot of boozy lunches, a lot of socializing, a lot.

I love that show.

I love that show. And I was like, living that show in, you know, that I don't know.

If I'D want to live it. But I loved it.

It was weird, you know, it was weird. But yeah, we did a lot of boozy lunches. That was the culture. And there was a saying, business gets done at the bar. Like it was wild. And it was before the pandemic, before everyone was work from home. So we were all in the office and it was so, so fun. And then I got pregnant. Yeah, that doesn't really work. You know, it didn't really like vibe with the culture of the team I was on at the time. And so we, you know, I tried to hide it for a while. I was like showing everyone knew but I pretended to hide it. And you know, I was very worried. I think many people caregivers of all kinds, not just parents. If you have to take time away from the workforce, you're very worried about what it will look like when you come back. I think that's why so many people, especially women, go start their own businesses because the workforce doesn't work for many women and they're trying to create their own structures and systems.

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And that fear was absolutely validated. When I came back from maternity leave, I ran these, like, three big accounts, and I love them. And I, I really identified, you know, as the person who was good at my job. And I came back from maternity leave and I was told, your replacements did such a good job, they're going to stay on in the roles that they're in. And that was. I was so happy for them and I wanted that opportunity for them. And at the same time, it bumped me backwards because now I had a smaller piece of business to run and I had to, you know, I had spent years building this up, and now I had to go sort of find other things to do to demonstrate my value and show that I was worthy of the title that I held and the respect that I had already, you know, gained over the years. I. I really had felt that I had been bumped down the mountain and had to climb back up. And I did. I rose to the occasion, but it really felt like starting over. And it was because I had a child, so it didn't feel great. But when I was back, I just kept saying to everyone, like, oh, it's fine, it's fine. Like, yeah, that happened, but I'll figure it out. And I did. But also, I found other things that I was engaged with, because what happens when you sideline an ambitious woman or a mom? They turn their ambition elsewhere and so, yes, I built myself back up at my company, at my, at my full time job. But at the same time I started doing more freelance writing, getting more visibility with my writing and so getting opportunities to interview much more high profile people, celebrities, senators, you know, celebrity fitness instructors, crypto billionaires. I mean, I have stories, you guys, but. And I was invited to speak on stages and do all these things. I got the book deal, you know, I. And so through my setback of being sidelined in this one place, identified so, so tightly for most of my life, most of my career, all of a sudden I started dipping a toe into these other areas. Even though I was still convincing myself I was fine. So I was still in establish, pretending I was fine, while I was also doing a little bit of explore, which is phase three. You start to just explore different things that might light you up, that might, you might be passionate about. I never saw it as a career. I saw it as a side hobby, something that I just did for fun. But once I started gaining more and more opportunities, people came to me, they wanted me to consult for them, to ghostwrite for them. And now I do a lot of thought leadership and ghost writing for executives and founders. And when I was maybe unsurprisingly laid off a few years later, I had a whole side business. I had formed my llc, I had a few clients on retainer, I had a website. Like, I had all the foundational elements to just start my own business. And I probably wouldn't have made the.

Leap on my own.

I had to sort of be pushed out. And everyone always told me, yeah, I mean, I don't know why you didn't leave earlier.

You're like, because we do, we do have to sometimes be pushed out like that. I've absolutely experienced that multiple times. All right, let's talk about number two, which is embrace. Tell me about when we like what this looks like.

Embrace is just the worst because this is the part, this is where the inner critic comes in. This is the part where, and I think you asked earlier, you know, what's the difference between people who work through setbacks productively and find success at the end and the people who kind of get stuck embraces where they get stuck. This is where blame and shame, we talked about shame in the inner critic. But you could also take your setback and get stuck in embrace and be fully blaming someone else for your problems. And it is almost always a combination of your fault and someone else's fault. The answer is almost always in the middle. And this is the Phase where you really have to sort of glean the data and collect the information and ask yourself, you know, why is this impacting me so much? And not just go with that first gut reaction answer like, yes, oh, my investor pulled out. This is impacting me because I lost money. No, no, no, dig deeper. It's impacting you because you feel the loss of credibility, the insult to your intelligence, the lost identity. Like, you have to dig deeper, like from the logistics to the emotions. And that's why this is like, you have to sit with your discomfort a little bit. This is where the growth happens. This is the dopamine dip. But if you can get through the dip and you collect the information and you get really introspective and you evaluate what's happened, you can work your way to phase three, which is explore. And that's the most fun phase because you get to test new things out, rely on your community. You get to figure out what your super powers are. And you don't have to commit to a path forward yet. You're just playing. You're just kind of like exploring what's possible. And that's why this is my favorite phase. So explore is the best, but you kind of have to go through embrace to get to explore.

I literally remember my embrace moments at like 2am in the morning. Oh, yeah. It's literally exactly what you hit on. It was like, oh, my God, no one is ever going to want to do anything with me again. No one's ever gonna buy my stuff. No one's ever gonna put me on a stage. I can't write a book. I like the credibility thing. I was like, my reputation feels like it's gone and I disappointed everybody. And I can absolutely see how. I mean, I was stuck there for a little while.

Yeah.

It's almost like I couldn't. For people who are in it right now, it does feel like you can't get out. Like I couldn't see a way out. And it wasn't until, I'm guessing, because I haven't totally dove in, which I'm excited about. It wasn't until I started exploring why this could have happened for me and like really asking that question, how did this happen for me? So let's go into explore because help me get out. I'm in it.

Yes. I. I love, I love that you said that what people get stuck in is rumination and that inner critic is the loudest. When you wake up at 2am do you notice that people to fall back asleep and then you wake up and it's daylight. The inner critic's a little quieter. Do you notice that they're especially loud at 2am the, the trick is to listen to them for any clues and any, you know, constructive criticism that might be there, but not to let it take over. It's hard. It's really hard. But you get into explore and you think, okay, I didn't like this about what I did, you know, and I would have, maybe I would have never chosen to, to leave that, but this is something I didn't like. How can I not do that again? Right back to not experiencing the dopamine dip. There's also, I have something called the Curiosity Quiz, which is so fun, you know, even if you're not in a setback, just flipping through the book and going through some of these exercises can be just a really enlightening activity. So the Curiosity Quiz has something, you know, a couple questions in it that make you go into like your childhood a little like, what did I love doing? Why did I love doing that? If you played team sports, what did you love about that? If you ran track, is it because you loved running or because you love the camaraderie of your team? And if you kind of dig into, and I don't even say childhood because childhood wasn't great for everyone, you think back to your most idealistic time when you were full of hope and anything was possible. Go back into that place and I have some questions that you can ask that person. And then the next phase of the Curiosity Quiz is to marry the idealistic self with the realistic self. And how can you bring some of what you loved and what lit you up into your day to day life? And again, I don't want you to say, oh, I'm in a setback. I need to just blow up my life and start over. I really recommend not doing that. If you, you know, rely on an income, you rely on a full time job for your health care to pay your mortgage. Tiptoe out of it through the explore phase by just seeing what more might be possible. Even if what you're exploring, you can't see how it might potentially, you know, make you money or get you out of a bad relationship. Just explore. This is, we're just having fun now. We're just playing. It's the playful thing. Mm.

I mean, I, I remember even starting to ask those questions felt a little scary. So people in it, like, it feels like, oh, I shouldn't be asking these questions, like, am I trying to get out of this? Because I remember Thinking business is just hard. This is just how it's supposed to feel. Everybody tells me it's gonna feel this way and I'm gonna feel like I don't know what I'm doing. Except that went on way too long and there were so many. It's almost like you can start avoiding the red flags because you're just so in that moment. So I think for me, even asking questions like, okay, if I did decide to change what I'm doing, what could that look like? What would that look like? And even opening that door was like, okay, could this be better? Could it maybe be better? Could this have happened for me? Could I, you know, take this story and all these investors and people along with me on the journey to the next thing? Like, maybe it's not as bad as I think. Maybe this isn't a failure. Maybe this was all a part of it. And those Little Bridges at 2am at night or the next morning. Actually, those questions came more the next morning.

Not, yeah, absolutely, that was your transition from embrace to explore. That's exactly what you do. You think, wait, okay, this was bad, but you start climbing out of it and asking, could I take that along with me? How can I rebuild what I liked and leave behind what I didn't like? It's in those moments that you transition from phase two to phase three and that's a big transition.

Yeah. And it feels like you have to let yourself do it. It almost feels like, I don't know if I should tell anyone, I'm even asking these questions. And, and it was really powerful. I just started getting more into the powerful questions every single day and that helped me bridge into where I'm at now. So let's talk about phase four because, my God, you do not think this phase is ever going to come, but let's do it.

But it does come. You will emerge.

It always comes.

If you ask, ask, you need to know. Even if you are in the thick of a terrible setback and you are just spiraling with self doubt, or you're in a setback cyclone, you know, a series of, you know, bad stuff that's going on, I just want you to know you will emerge. You will have your Phoenix moment. It may look so different than what you thought it would look like, but it will come. If you do the work, if you ask the questions, if you sit in the discomfort, if you take in the data so that you can kind of evaluate it and figure out what to do next. And here's the thing, the emerge phase, you don't just kind of come out of the cocoon and spread your wings and fly away. There's pitfalls to the emerge phase because once you do all the evaluating and remixing and planning and you're like, okay, this is what I'm gonna do, it's hard to actually take that step forward sometimes. All that planning and strategizing is, is exhausting and you're tired and you just need to lay down for a minute, and that's okay. You have to give yourself grace if you're feeling that even as you are, you know, getting to the emerge phase, you will get there and you will get up and get off the couch at some point. But give yourself grace if you're not there yet, even if you're after you've done all the exploring.

Oh my God, so much grace. I mean, like, I, I am using all of the great. That it's the thing that pulled me out for sure. Because when you are getting to the Emerge place from the explore place, you typically have a big decision to make, like, or you have a big action to take because you're aware that you need to do something potentially very different, or you're aware that you have a very hard conversation that you have to have, or you're aware that things have to really change in order for you to get out of this. Even if you're clear, even if you're like, oh my God, this is it, now it's time to take action. So in the emerging, in order for me to take all of those actions and to pivot and go into a new direction and have those hard conversations, I had to have so much grace on myself and saying, hey, I failed over here, or this changed, or this is what this looked like. And so grace has been for emergence. Like, I'm so glad that you talk about grace because that is the only thing that has gotten me through that.

And it's so hard to give yourself grace, especially if you're high achiever, you're a perfectionist, you know, it's really, really hard. And one of the things that I like to do to combat that inner critic, that self doubt that comes up, especially at 2am when they get really loud, is to name your inner hype person. You know that saying, talk to yourself like you're. You're talking to a best friend? Yes. Name your inner hype person. So I have Roz, my inner critic, but then I have Rhoda is based on Mary Tyler Moore's best friend, Rhoda Morgenstern, who had like, absolutely iconic 70s fashion. And she was just the ultimate, that, you know, TV sitcom best Friend. And like, yeah, she is there saying, all right, Roz, be quiet. And like, she's tough enough to combat Roz because, you know, Roz is strong. No, and you give your hype, your inner hype person a name. Like, she's proud of you and she knows what's possible for you. So listen to her.

I just, I literally, for some reason, the, the name bestie just like, okay.

That'S right after all.

Yeah, I love that so much. Okay, so do we need, do we need setbacks? Because some people are like, okay, I want this breakthrough in my life. I want to do this big thing. Do I, do I have to have a setback? Do I have to create one?

Like, tell me you do not need to have a setback in order to find success. We are not glorifying pain or suffering. We are not saying that you can't find success without being bumped backwards. We are just saying, you know, setbacks are an inevitable part of life. They build resilience, they build strength. You know, that, that whole neuroscience process that's taking place in your brain when you're encountering a setback, it's like, it's like building muscle. You know, you could be, you know, just born, have absolutely wonderful genetics where you're just born incredibly muscular and athletic and your natural ability will get you very far. That's wonderful. But if you don't hone that strength, if you don't work out and build that muscle up, you're only going to get so far, you know, and there are ways to again, build your mental flexibility and your resilience without encountering a horrible setback or even the daily micro setbacks. But there's a chance you'll need that strength just like again, just like you have to break down the muscles in your body to have it rebuilt as strength. You have to, you know, experience. You will at least experience a dopamine dip in your life. It might not be a full setback. It might not be a, a crazy, dramatic business setback. You don't have to blow up your life, but in those moments of discomfort, of the feeling of being bumped backwards. And again, you could have the really small setbacks that happen every day. Just pay attention to them, pay attention to the clues, how they make you feel, why they make you feel like that. And you can kind of build that flexibility without encountering a big life changing setback.

So when we're training our brains for this kind of Tell me now because you've got, you wrote the book, you've got this, you like done all the interviews, you know, this cycle. What does it look like when you have a setback come up? Just run me through the process of your brain quick.

When you have a setback, it's a dopamine dip and you're feeling all the feelings of discomfort, of self doubt, of I can't believe this happened to me. Why me? Why me or why them? Why them? Why did they get this instead of me? Why did they do this to me? Why did this happen to me? Ask yourself the questions. Let yourself wallow. But then get up, move forward, Take the information, don't stew in it, use it. Just use it. If you allow the information to seep into your brain, your brain will be actually changing throughout your setback. So you might as well allow the change to happen and enable the evolution because that's where you grow, that's where you learn and then that's eventually where you thrive.

So good. You just had me really thinking like, don't waste it. Like when happen. Those things are the things that have the ability to take you to the next level and, and literally change your brain, which is so powerful to hear about and learn about in your book. Like this is actually going to take you to where you want to go if you ask the right questions and view it the right way. So I love that so much. Is there anything else that you want to make sure we all know about the setback cycle?

I kind of love what you just said. Don't waste a good set. But I just want people to know and again, especially when you're in your lowest moments, that you will get through this, you will make it to your emerge phase and you will be so surprised and amazed by all you are capable of.

I love that's like why I wanted to chat with you today is just to have people hear that you. A setback is just the opportunity to meet a version of yourself that is going to make you so damn proud. Who's going to surprise the crap out of you that even, even existed inside of you. Like, it's, it's glorious. It is glorious on the other side. So thank you so much for coming on, for writing this book, for doing the work that you do. Do you guys go and grab the book and I was just telling her it's a, it's a bit of a shorter book, which I love because I feel like, oh, I did that. I learned that. And you get to learn really quickly, really Incredible stories in here. So, Amy, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm so grateful for you. And where can we grab the book?

You can grab the book at any major retailer. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Target, Walmart, your local indie bookstore. Bookshop.org support the local bookstores, please. And it's also a beautiful cover. It has a nice orange gradient around the side, so it'll look really cool on your bookshelf. And it has that sort of, you know, it's about setbacks, but it has that optimistic vibe and the, you know, aura of. Of growth and resilience and change, so.

Well, thank you so much for coming on. You guys. Make sure that you go grab the book. And also, one of the things that we love to do see is what you got out of this podcast, what your biggest takeaway was. So, Amy, where can we tag you if we want to let you know what our biggest takeaway was from the podcast?

I'm on Instagram at Amy Show, AM Y S H O and LinkedIn. And I'm on threads now. I'm trying to be on threads, so good for you. That's there. And if you want to contact me directly, the setback cycle.com, there's a little contact form at the bottom of that website.

Amazing. You guys. Give Amy a tag. Give myself a tag. You know, I love to share your stories. Let us know what your biggest takeaway from this podcast was. And you know that I will also reshare that. So, Amy, thank you so much for coming on again. And everyone, until next time, earn your happy. Bye, everyone.