The Power Of Pivoting & How To Navigate The ‘In-Between’ Seasons | Living Room Session With Natalie Ellis, bossbabe CEO & Co-Founder

Think of how fast technology is changing, that we're changing just as fast because of what we're consuming, who we're around, we're learning faster. We have access to so many things.

Like we are changing so fast and.

The world is changing fast. That means our businesses also need to have this natural progression, so building in time to be able to do that. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the show. This is another live living room session that I am doing with my incredible friend Lindsay Schwartz, who has the Powerhouse Women podcast and live event. She's also one of my besties, so I think you'll get that pretty quickly. She brings out the best slash worst in me, meaning my humor gets real, real good, guys. It's one of the most fun things that we get to do. And this particular episode is brought to you by the Good Vibe Studio. It is a production playground based in Phoenix, Arizon Women owned, operated, and it was built for photographers, content creators, podcasters, filmmakers, and all creatives. It has five studio spaces available for rent. Each studio offers a different vibe for diversity and creative content. And to learn more about the studio and their memberships or even rentals. And, you know, you guys can host something like we're hosting there. If you're interested in that as well, you can go follow the Good Vibe Studios or just visit the Good Vibe Studio. The links are below in the show notes. We also have a really special guest at this living room session and we decided to surprise the audience and they were freaking out. You guys, I think you're gonna love this one. It is all about the transitions in our life and really what they feel like. So we talked about how instead of calling it a pivot, we're calling it an evolution, we're calling it an upgrade. So get ready, because a lot of you are resisting your upgrade right now. And after this episod, you're going to be ready to evolve into that butterfly that you know you're meant to be. We get real. We are raw. We're hilarious in our opinions. So that's up to you to decide, but I think you're going to love it. Let's get started. Can we please give the biggest welcome to Natalie Ellis, our guest tonight? Can I please. I have to share this? She was like. I'm like, no, we're gonna introduce you after we sit down. And she's like, what if people don't.

Know who I am?

That would be awkward. And like, this group is gonna know who you are. You're gonna be just fine.

So I was saying, wouldn't it just be awful if someone hyped up a really amazing surprise guest and then they announced the name, and everyone's like, crickets.

I was like, this is Ethel from.

Iowa.

But thank you. That made me feel like you did know what boss babe was, which makes me very proud.

Cue hype them up. And either way, they're just, you know, they get wine.

Hype them up, give them wine, and they're excited.

Little teaser.

So good.

Well, we're so excited to have you here. Like, when Lindsay and I were putting this together, we said, and what if. What if we also had, like, these incredible guests that joined us, and people were just like, what? How am I getting to do this in such an intimate setting? Because Natalie doesn't really put herself in these situations super often, and she's got a babes at home and her new baby. So I'm just.

Did you guys.

I got. I got that.

Her husband and a baby. Okay, but today we are going to be talking about. I say, like, our favorite topic. But we say that every single week.

You guys, our favorite topic of the week.

Tonight, we are going to talk about transitions. And when I say transitions, we're going to talk about pivots. But redefining pivots. We're going to talk about redefining pivots into evolutions. Because pivoting, it doesn't necessarily always carry, like, a positive connotation.

Right.

When you hear a pivot, it's like.

Oh, shit, I'm pivoting.

Like, oh. Like, the ship was going in one direction, and now you got to do a full 180 into the next. But what we're going to chat about tonight is the fact that that is not a 180 into the next direction. It is actually a natural transition, even though it may not look natural to the outside world, because historically, maybe things weren't done that way. It is a natural transition into your next evolution. So all of you are going to go through a pivot.

If you have.

Not a lot of you are going to go into this room and pivot away from your relationships. I'm just kidding.

You're not.

I'm totally lying. You're going to pivot.

I was not expecting that. I need some wine.

I'm totally joking. Only because sometimes people come to bliss and be like, I had an epiphany. I need to leave my husband. I'm like, no, that is not why you came. And do not tell your husband that ever. Like, no, I'm changing my address. So with that I would love to talk with you guys and ask you first, what does pivoting mean to you? Like, what words do you use around pivoting? Does that feel really scary to you anymore? What does that feel like now that you've probably done it multiple times?

Yeah, I just think back to 2020, when 2020 happened and everyone was throwing around the word pivot. We just decided that we were going to reclaim that word and instead call it reimagining. That. Yes. Like, whether it's because the outside world changes and you need to change how you're showing up and how you're doing business, or whether something inside changes and you realize there's a different way that you need to be operating in order access to your next level. I love the word reimagine. I think it just, like, brought me right back to creativity. Like, the creativity that can happen in a pivot. Sometimes stepping back in order to leap forward. And maybe it was because I'm a. I love words. And pivot just felt so harsh. It feels like it does sometimes carry a connotation like, that didn't work. So now I need to go this way. When truthfully, that's actually one of the most courageous things that you can do.

And I think it's a natural.

It's.

I mean, I don't think it's a natural thing to do. I think when we resist the upgrade. I like that, too. I like all these words we're coming up with.

Reimagining your vocabulary is gonna.

This is. Yeah, not too far. Just a couple words.

Okay.

Lower your standards tonight.

Lower them.

Okay.

Yes. How about you, Natalie?

I've had a such an up and down relationship with it. Cause I feel like there were times in my earlier career where I would pivot from a place of fear. Like, okay, I put something out there and it's not working. Let me just pivot real fast so it doesn't look like I'm failing or this isn't working. And I would do that. And I kind of realized I would give up on things too soon and didn't really serve me to do that. And I kind of had to learn to go the distance because I had a lot of that shiny object syndrome. I'm very like, oh, what's the next thing? But I'm definitely in a season of pivot right now. And what I've come to realize is there's a difference between pivoting out of fear and pivoting out of growth and evolution. And one thing we were just talking about before we came on was the sunk cost fallacy, where you think because you're pivoting, everything you've done up until this point is actually, like, a waste. And I really don't see it that way. I think even when I look at what I've built now, when I want to pivot in a new direction, I want to do some fresh, new things that feel exciting. It doesn't mean that anything I've created in the past was irrelevant or that I'm not aligned with. It just means that, okay, I'm ready to evolve it. And I like the way to upgrade it and just make it more me, more relevant, more, like, more to do with what's going on right now.

I like that totally. I define it as just the next adventure. Like, it's literally just the next upgrade. And if you find yourself feeling stagnant, some signs for me of when the pivot slash upgrade is coming, the reimagining of my life. I really think what starts happening is we feel a little frustrated. We look around, and we don't feel maybe as excited by our conversation sometimes. And sometimes that's on us. But sometimes it's maybe time to go seek some new rooms for some topics that make us feel challenged, some people that make us feel challenged. I think we can feel a bit, like, restless and sometimes bored. Bored when we're resisting the upgrade. Because what can happen is you're just not. You're not challenged. Because the upgrade will always come as an uphill challenge every single time. It will never look easy. It will never be something that you're like, yeah, I'm doing that.

That's gonna be amazing.

And then it's easy. It's like, yeah, I'm doing that.

That's awesome.

And why did I say I wanted to do this? Like, this is so hard. And that's a lot of the ways that those are gonna come through. Is anybody in that at all right now?

Okay, great.

You're in the right room.

One thing I also think I'm wondering if you feel the same way. Sometimes you can feel really burned out and pivot in a way that does make things a little bit easier. Because sometimes I have pictured myself being in a place of burnout, where I'm trying to do something, and it's like pushing a boulder uphill. But I make a few pivots and tweaks, and it's like skiing downhill, and, like, there's waste. And maybe that's just because you feel more in alignment and more excited about it. And I think things feel easier when you're excited, but I know when I'm really not in a place of alignment, I'm like, oh, this boulder is so heavy. I don't want to do this anymore.

I'm so glad you said that because that is 100% where I was. And now where I'm going, I feel like I'm downhill skiing on something that should feel challenging only because I was pushing a boulder up a hill that was fairly impossible. I hate using that word, but it's like sometimes it's like the universe will keep hitting you over the head with that two by four and you know, the sledgehammer. And sometimes it's like, is this my hill to die on? Is this really the hill I'm supposed to die on? Is it really meant to be this incredibly hard, challenging, like actually not enjoyable anymore? Especially after a long, long. I'm talking, okay, we get to be in those seasons for a little while, but I'm talking like a two year season. It's time to go. Is there different? Is there something else? Is there something that could still hold the same kind of like idea but in a different way? So you're not really necessarily doing that big 180. It's kind of like, let's take this idea that you loved and see if it can fit in a different vehicle.

Yeah.

So.

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Yeah, I always look at but if I look backward, right, it's always so easy to connect the dots looking backward. Isn't that the Steve Jobs quote? And I try to remember that when I'm in a season where I know I'm evolving again. Because when I look back, it always made sense. It made sense why I had to go from one thing to the next because of what I learned and who I became in the process. So I love what you shared about the cost. We think that by going down one road, if it doesn't end up being the thing, like I'm 39 years old, I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up. Can we just, like, normalize that? Because who I am right now will not, I guarantee it won't be who I am in 10 years. So I've come to understand that my evolution is the one thing that is a definite what that looks like and what I learn along the way and where it's going to lead me. Of course, I can't see that now. I'm not the person that I'm going to be when I head into that next season. Now, it may always look like a version of what it looks like right now, but. But if we're really giving ourselves room to grow, which is literally what we're designed to do as human beings, we're meant to evolve. Of course your vision is going to evolve as you do, and there's not actually a cost, because if you're learning the lessons you're meant to learn now, if you're not learning the lessons, that's where you ever find yourself in a bad relationship, and then you break up with that person, but you find yourself in the same bad relationship with a different face, same relationship. So if you're not evolving, that's where the pivots, I think, can feel painful because you're like, well, this isn't it either. Look inward. What lesson did you not learn? What lesson are you avoiding? What are you actively resisting? That until you learn it, until you evolve in that way, you're not going to be able to go in the direction of the thing that is going to feel more aligned or that is going to feel more fulfilling. And that's my favorite part of all the. If we want to call them pivots that I've done up until this point is literally being able to look at how I'm a different person because of what I learned from it. So I wouldn't trade any of it in. I wouldn't have wished this journey to go any faster than it's gone because of who I got to become in the process. I don't know if either of you feel that.

Yeah, it's kind of when you're talking, it's like trading cards. I even think about some decisions I've made or things that I've done. It's almost like, okay, that experience gave me the confidence, that experience gave me the relationships. That experience gave me this. And I'm collecting all these trading cards, and I'm going to trade them in for this new, like, the product. Okay. I'm going to finally launch that business. Oh, and that had to give me this. And we're just constantly. I don't know if there ever is a time when, I mean, maybe someone can tell them, but they've ever, like, figured this whole thing out. I feel like we're all just continuing to get these cards and then be like, you know what? I'm gonna throw it all in and try something new, and it kind of feels fun and exciting, and I don't know that I want to know where I'm gonna be in five years.

I don't. Yeah, that would be no fun, because I feel like the surprise turns are some of the most fun. And I think the thing that I trust now is that I don't have to see the how, and I actually don't want to, because sometimes it's, like, it's the most fun surprise when the person. You kind of feel like you need to have either this network already done, which sometimes you do. But at the same time, I've had people come into my life in one day who are like, the new trajectory of something. So I always, like, say things or say prayers or say intentions that I'm like, hey, surprise me with someone who just. I say things like that, like, shock me today, like, show me something that just excites me so much around this new direction, or, you know, I'm totally open to it. And then we see it, because a lot of us miss it, too. And especially, I think, as women, we can struggle with trusting people and trusting other women. And sometimes you have to take that ride of, like, hey, this feels really good. Would you ever want to, like, try this or do this? And just, you know, especially if we have all the trading cards when the surprise comes, meaning all of the past experiences, according to Natalie, with trading cards. I love that if we have a lot of trading cards and we have so much history and lessons, you can kind of take those leaps and surprises a little bit faster, because you know how to do contracts, you know how to have the conversations, you know how to set the expectations, you know how to talk about the hard things that you would never normally talk about. So it's been really interesting where I'm like, wow, things can move a lot faster after you've done these challenging times in your life. So you can trust a little faster because you have the safety nets and the boundaries and the languaging and the practice to be able to know how to do those things. So I would love for each of you, Natalie, if you want to tell me one of the times in your life, maybe either a lesson from a pivot that you've loved or something that was really hard. Anything around it.

I mean, I feel like I'm going through such a pivot right now, so I can share definitely more in the moment. When I went back to work after my maternity leave, it was just way too soon, and I was very much feeling like A whole different person slotting into an old role in an old business. And something about it wasn't fitting. And I kept getting so frustrated that it wasn't fitting. And I just kept, like, shoving it in there. Come on, come on, you can do it. It's like that pair of pants that definitely was not fitting me. And I just kept trying till I realized, okay, I need to step back and take breath and realize things have changed and I've changed. And the only person this isn't serving right now is me, because I'm showing up for everyone else in my life but myself, and that isn't going to work for me. And so I decided to take a step back, and that was really scary for me because I'm Capricorn8 and Control Freak. You get it, right? So to take a step back and put a lot of trust in my team was, you know, it was challenging because I really needed to step back and not just, you know, cut my. Like, I step. I really wanted to step back and take a full breather. And luckily, you know, I had an amazing co founder, amazing team that did incredible things with the business. And it was the first time in over a decade that I'd not been, like, working on my business in the way I was used to. And that was really scary. But what really came out of that for me was I was able to really find myself again in a new version of myself, like, get to know the new version of myself and find the person that was always in there that was kind of being hidden by so many things. I got to really find and meet her and then figure out what I wanted to do in business and how my role would look different or how my business would look different. And that felt absolutely incredible. And then claiming that was a whole new ball game. I think it's really scary sometimes to speak up and say when you've changed to a lot of people around you that maybe aren't in a season of change. Family, friends, team, everyone. So there was so many things going on in that pivot, but it feels really good. And one thing that I've learned from that is. And this is a big lesson for me because I really feel like I'm in such flow with everything. I feel more energetic than I've ever felt. And I have that because I took a break and I allowed myself to get creative, to get the space again, to think again, to have fun again. And what I am very aware of is if I fall back into the same patterns of, yeah, put that meeting on My calendar. Yeah, I'll go to that thing. Yeah, I'll do that for you. Yes, yes, yes. I'll make you happy and say, yes, I will find myself in the exact same situation I was in. And so that that space created creativity and it's allowed me to create momentum. But I cannot stop my momentum because I get busy again. And so I'm really becoming intentional every week, reviewing my calendar, creating systems and processes around, making sure that I'm not filling my calendar up again. Because if I make my calendar so full that I can't think and create, I'm going to be back to where I started. So that's been such a big lesson for me.

I'm having these moments of just hearing you talk about how when we really crowd our lives with so many things, that is how we will never do a natural transition into the next evolution. It will feel like a crash landing because you won't even have room to give yourself space to think. I'm thinking about, like, how can we naturally implement this time for us to be like, who am I now? Who am I six months later? Who am I a year later? Because we're changing so fast, Think of how fast technology is changing, that we're changing just as fast because of what we're consuming, who we're around, we're learning faster. We have access to so many things. Like, we are changing so fast and the world is changing fast. That means our businesses also need to have this natural progression. So building in time to be able to do that.

Yeah. And if you have people pleasing tendencies, I think that can be really challenging. Especially. Yeah. In the world we're in now, where our DMs are filled with people who are like asking if they can collaborate and do certain things, or your community and audience is asking for support in a whole new direction, or your team is asking for the vision, the next step. You know, people are asking things of you. Your family might be asking, what's next? And I think speaking from experiencing can be really easy to give a premature answer out of people pleasing because you want to console them, because you being in your unsureness is making them feel uncomfortable because of their unsureness. And that's not your problem to solve. And that's been something that I've really had to be intentional about. You know, I have the most incredible team and it's really reasonable that they would want to know where we're going. And I'm having to say to them, hey, I can tell you where we're gonna go in the next three months. But I can't tell you where we're gonna go in the next 12 months. I'm just gonna ask you to trust me. I've never let you down yet. And I'm not gonna let you down, but I'm gonna have to ask you to trust me. And that's been a really interesting journey. Similarly with my husband. You know, he was like, are you ever gonna go back to work? I don't know. And obviously, obviously you can't keep me away from my work. And I did. But I didn't wanna have to say to him, yes, and give him a time. It was very much just like, let me be in my process, let me be in my, my space. And that was something I had to really work on because I'm very much a people pleaser. Or was I'm changing my identity, my friends. I was a people pleaser. That alter ego of me.

Oh my gosh. I have a question for you around that before we jump into yours, just around. Did you ever feel like you needed validation because you were kind of like out of the spotlight for a bit? Did you ever feel like, oh my God, I'm losing my credibility, do I need to go jump back in? Or did that not really come in that season?

Truthfully, yes. There was two ways that that showed up for me the first time was it was actually really nice to step back and not have kind of all of that going on, because I've just had that going on for a really long time. You know, I've been doing Instagram, what, a decade now? And so I've been very used to showing up very consistently and having that two way feedback. So the initial breather was amazing. And then there was part of me starting to question, okay, what does my next path look like? Do I want to continue doing what I'm doing? Which I do. But at the time I didn't know. And all of those questions popped up, okay, well, you know, will I still be me if I left Instagram? Would I still be me if I just deleted my email list? You know, those things pop up. Will I still be relevant? Will I still get invited to things? Will anyone want to have me on their podcast? Like, all of those questions pop up because some part of us ties are worth to the following. The downloads, the emails, and we think, oh, am I being invited to that thing because of that? And I kind of got to a place where I was like, you know what, what if they don't want me? They don't come and Fucking get me.

There are so many challenges to business that I don't want starting to be.

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And I really came to terms with that because there's a lot of people that will be there for you and love on you when you've got something to offer them. And there'll be people that really fall away when you don't. And I just decided, you know what, show me. And that was really nice to just own and to feel confident in and step into. And ultimately I decided I do want to keep doing what I'm doing and I do want to change it so that it fits my lifestyle and I don't want to be in the kind of same burnout cycles that I was. But there's a lot of fear in that, like the self worth stuff even, you know, I put out self worth affirmations almost every single day. You might have seen one of them and I still, I'm still having to say it to myself still.

Oh, it's so real.

We especially love the ones with the word fuck in them. They get shared the most.

Yeah, they do.

They do. Did you ever notice that?

I'm like fuck or shit. My top six posts of all time.

That's all we're gonna see now from this group. Just swear words.

Hot tip. We're like, you guys have to write.

A sentence around it. Not just the swear words.

It's like just something to go. Like Instagram algorithm.

Because secretly we don't want to be people pleasers. We literally just want to let it be okay to be.

It just does something for people. Like if you've got a quote that's doing well, just like put the F word in there and it'll just turn up.

Do a split test. Do a split test. Try it.

Keep your mom on the other one.

You know what I'm saying? The amount of times I have hidden things from my grandma. Sorry.

Wanna keep grandma alive?

Okay. Oh, my gosh.

How about you, Lynn?

So relatable, especially when you were talking about the people pleasing tendencies. Cause my biggest pivot probably came when I went from the first business that I built into giving myself permission to go all in on Powerhouse Women before it was monetizing in a significant way. And I think that's one of the boldest pivots that you can make, is to leave something that's going really well and it probably won't make sense to anyone other than you. Because I was the only one that could feel what I was feeling, that could see what I was seeing, and I was doing it with a plan. So I had the support of my husband and, you know, the people who matter, pretty much just him. The people who mattered.

Right.

I was like, pretty much no one else got it. But it was because in this previous business, I had taught a lot of people to rely on me because that felt really good, felt really comfortable, to be needed. And I realized I created a life that I couldn't walk away from without leaving a couple of bridges burned. And that was on me. That wasn't anyone else's fault. I had a lot of codependent relationships that it just wasn't going to. It wasn't going to evolve in a natural way. And I just had to have the guts to say, I know you don't understand, but I'm also asking you to just love me in this new direction that I want to go. I really believe in this. I think this idea. I think this little idea called Powerhouse Women could be a thing. But imagine, imagine, like, had I not listened to that, there was way more evidence for why I should stay doing what I was doing. A really nice residual income, a lot of speaking opportunities, acknowledgement I was put on stages. I was given awards. I mean, you remember that. Like, it's. But on the inside, if you know there's something more for you, it's the willingness to be a beginner again. I think it's one of the most courageous things any of us can do is reinvent ourselves. And what you learn about yourself in the process by being willing to be a beginner will rock your world. It's one of the reasons why right now I'm taking dance classes with these two amazing people sitting in the front row, because, you know, it made me fall in love with being a beginner because it feels awkward. And I grow, and I get to see my own limiting beliefs, and I get to see the way I talk to myself when I'm not great at something. Initially, it's given me so many gifts. But I learned that in that season where I trusted my own intuition, maybe for the first time ever, and said, you know what? No one else sees what I can see. And I need to be okay with that and not need the validation like you were just talking about. Because in the past, I would go around and I'd be like, here's my new idea. Do you think this is a good idea? Like, how are we feeling? I would probably ask everyone in this room, like, I'm gonna.

I just wanted to hear you say that to people. How are we feeling about feeling.

Feeling about this?

You like it.

And then if they, like, maybe they were, like, about to sneeze, so, like, their face would, like, contort in a weird way, and it'd be like, they hate it. They hate me. I'm an idiot. I really should. But here's what I want you to remember, okay? And this really served me in the beginning. Be careful who you share your really, really big ideas with in the beginning when it's just a little seed. Because a big idea is easiest to kill when it's in that seed form. So don't expect everyone to get it, because you were given that vision. You were given the vision for what you can see. Everyone else can't see it, so they're not going to water that seed, even if they love you. And that's what you hope for is right? Having the people who love you enough to say, I don't see what you see, but I believe in you. I'd bet on you any day of the week. Because what you have to realize is that your job is to work. I'm like, what are some farming terms here? Hold on. I'm not a Gardener. Okay. I don't have a green thumb, but I'm gonna try. Okay, ready? It's like me. It's like me using skydiving analogies last time. I like to use analogies that I have no business using. So back to gardening. Okay.

I just want you to work in a hoe, that's all.

Oh, thank you. See, this is why this is right. Bring your funny friends around. So imagine you've got your hoe.

I got one all the time.

And you're watering your seed. You're probably fertilizing, and I think that's way too much.

We're selling the line, we're going to bring it back.

But here's the important piece, right? There's a lot of steps in between planting the seed and harvesting the fruit. Focus on the part that you can see. Do the work, grab that hoe every day, till the soil or whatever the fuck you do.

Plant your seed.

But here's the thing. Some people won't get it. They won't validate it until there's fruit. By that time, it will probably be too long for them to actually be a part of it. Like you were saying, like the people who don't buy in when it is an impressive and when you don't have anything to offer them. But it's important to realize that people aren't going to get it when it's in that seed form. But it's important for you to protect it, because if you don't, other people could easily talk you out of something that's going to be your next big thing, and it's going to make a huge impact. And you just have to trust that, especially if you can feel it or see it. You know, some of us get intuition. Like, physically, I'm a generator in human design, so I. I feel intuition. But some people get a visual glimpse of what's ahead. And you just have to trust that even when no one else around you can see it. Unless it's like a really safe person who really has your back and is not sure you should pursue that, maybe you should second guess that. Because if you know that you're meant to go down that path again, if we take the viewpoint that you can't actually fail, you're either going to learn something or you're going to grow or it is going to be a success. Anything in between there, I'll take all day. I'll take the lesson. If it gets me to the next place that I need to evolve to in order to really become the person that I'm meant to be. But I'm so grateful that I listened to me. I think that was the first time that pivot was the first time that I listened to me, even though no one else was validating it. Maybe five people, you know, like the people who showed up at that first event and said, well, when's the next one? And I was like, this was literally it. Hold. Hold on a sec. Let me think about this.

Give me a minute. Go to the bathroom and think of something.

Right? So I'm so grateful that I listened to that intuition, because everything people now know me for wouldn't exist if I hadn't.

Let's talk about some of the.

The.

Let's talk about the in between the transition periods, because I think this is the most important thing. We can talk about the evolution and the upgrades and all the exciting stuff that is coming, but it's going to be the in between that's going to derail you, and it's going to put you back into the thing that you already know that you're already getting validation for. Trust me. There were multiple times where actually, I'll start out by sharing a story around that. So I really want to talk about what the transition actually feels like to prepare you for it, and then also how to support yourself around it. So we'll go and chat about that. So when I was in the fitness world, that was honestly the first time I'd ever finished anything, like, ever at all. Meaning I had never. I didn't graduate high school. I never, like, really stuck to jobs very long. I wanted to start these different things and never did so when I. So I never got any accolades. And I never. Being raised in a really religious family, the only time you got recognized was for, like, religious purposes. If you were a good girl, if you did the things that you were supposed to do and the congregation wanted you to do. So I had never actually gotten recognition for, like, school, doing something, well, any athletics, because I wasn't in any, like, nothing. You weren't allowed to be in them. So for me, what happened is when I got into fitness after I moved out, there were some quick hits of, like, recognition around, oh, you're so fit. And I was like, I am. Guess what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get more fit. And she did and I did, at the cost of my mental health in every arena. But that addiction got really intense, like, literally down to places where it was like, no one commented on my arms this week because I wasn't getting it. Anywhere else in my life. So when I was in the fitness world and started getting attention around fitness competitions and winning and then getting on covers, like, that was a whole other world of, this is who I am now. I actually don't know who I am outside of this. I can't imagine ever leaving it, except not long after being in it, I was like, I'm not really supposed to be here anymore. And that was the scariest place I think I've ever been. Because up till that point, that was the scariest thing I'd ever done. And what ended up happening is even a couple years after, and even throughout my career, I would notice that when I was going into a new transition, I'd be like, oh, my God, you know what? Oh, I should go try to get a cover. And sometimes I would. But guess what? That cover would do. Yeah, it would be awesome. Because I would get that accolade and I would. I'd feel fulfilled for a little bit. The COVID would come out, and honestly, it was like, two weeks. You're kind of done, and you're already like, great. That didn't last.

Like, nobody really.

It's weird, right? Nobody keeps talking about it. You're like, come on, people.

No one came up in the gross.

It's like, no matter how many times you posted, they're kind of like, so the first time, you're like, do you know how long this took and how hungry I was? So it's really easy to run back to that thing. And the thing is not fulfilling, necessarily, because it's not on your future path anymore. But this is what we do over and over and over in our lives, with our relationships, with our friendships, with our careers. So the transition is a really tricky spot that it's going to pull you back over and over because you want a dopamine hit around your identity. You want a dopamine hit around something, feeling like you understand it. It just feels good to go back to something and be like, ooh, I'm good at this. Yeah, this is right. Okay, this feels good. I am good. But you don't get to do that if you're really evolving in the way that your soul is craving. It's really, really uncomfortable. It feels like a free fall. It feels treacherous. It feels like you're gonna lose your entire identity. Like, there were definitely places where I was like, I'm not gonna be loved anymore. Who am I even gonna hang out with? Like, I was very aware, you know, how you were like, I'm. It's kind of Interesting who you see, who you're hanging out with. Like, I was very aware some of my relationships were only for some reasons. And it's like part of me didn't mind it because I was a lonely kid, you know, part of me was just like cool and popular, thank God. But if I transition from this, I won't be popular anymore. And so that's been a big thing that has followed me everywhere in my life that I always have to think about when I'm transitioning because it's like, yep, wherever you are, you take you with you and you is the best thing that you can ever invest in in those transitions. I want to talk about kind of the things that you guys have experienced in your transitions.

Well, when you said that, the first thing that I thought of was, can we talk about how relationships evolve inevitably? I mean, they're just going to. That's necessary.

Yes.

I don't really have anything else to say on that other than I would love to hear what you have to say. Do you know what need up here?

Just like a stuffed mic that we can just drop when we're done? When we were just like, no.

But, you know, it's something that I and your community probably talks about this a lot too. It's, I think, the number one thing that prevents a lot of people from fully stepping in and committing to the next thing. Because it is, it's really, it's challenging when you see the writing on the wall and you know, relationships are evolving and that person who was like your running mate, like you were in the trenches together, maybe just for whatever reason. That's not the case for this next season. And it really wasn't until I read your book that I ever heard someone talk about how certain relationships come into our life for life and others are for a season, others are for a lesson. And those are real fun when you get to be. I love your clothes about. You know, in order to be the hero in someone's story, sometimes you need to be the villain first for a season. And that's probably been the toughest part for me of allowing my evolution again. People pleasing tendencies that have been really deep rooted because I've wanted to make sure it's okay with everybody else before I give myself permission to evolve.

That hurt. We all got punched.

Sorry. Do you all want a hug?

We liked it.

We liked it.

It was weird.

Yeah, we liked it.

Yeah, it was strange.

Even still, to this day, I would love if everyone understood my evolution. You know what I wish? I wish people could really See inside my heart. I wish people could really see my character and knew my heart. But that's the thing, is sometimes their journey literally needs to see you through a certain light so they can grow. And I don't love being anyone's trigger, but I've had to learn to be more comfortable being an unintentional trigger because I'm just on my path. Because what I refuse to do anymore is change my course just to try and avoid being a trigger. Because maybe I'm actually shortcutting the lesson they're supposed to learn. Because again, remember, like, the boyfriend thing, maybe they needed to learn it with someone who's actually very loving. Right. Otherwise they're gonna meet some asshole friend who's gonna really hurt them. But to realize that, I don't get to say that's been the hardest. The hardest lesson for me in allowing myself to pivot is realizing that I don't get to choose. All I can do is if as long as I go to bed at night and I am proud of the person that I am and I really know my heart. And sometimes I have to check myself because I'm like, you know what? You were a little jealous, or you were a little. You weren't actually showing up for that person the way that you said you would. So you got to own that that's maybe why this is hurting. But at the end of the day, if I can come back to myself and know that I am following my own path, then I've learned, and luckily, I have a lot of good friends to support me through that inevitable growth, that sometimes relationships just evolve and they aren't a part of your journey anymore.

Oh, I love that. And you just. You made me think of a point of, you don't have to explain yourself in the transition. And I think in the beginning we do.

Can we stop over explaining ourselves in the transition?

It's so much explaining. Here's why I think I should do this. Here's why I think it'll be good idea. Here's why. Here's why. Just. Just be quiet and drive.

Yeah, just.

Just go forward. Just don't tell anyone what you're doing. Just go show them what you're doing and let it be okay. What people say. How about you? A transition?

Yeah. I think for me, what's been really interesting is I've wanted to kind of take a pause and figure out, okay, what about the business and my role? Do I love what. Do I not love what I want to change up and say? For example, you know, I want to lean more into content creation role versus a team management role. It doesn't mean that on Monday I can drop everything as it pertains to team management, but I've been learning how to sit with putting things on maintenance mode and keeping things running, whilst also allocating time towards the new direction and the new thing. That's been a really good way for me to sit with transition because I definitely don't want to be in a place where I'm, okay, like, clean the whiteboard. We're gonna start from scratch here. No, let's think about everything that's involved. Let's do this in a way that actually maintains certain things. You know, it's not gonna have team feeling like they're totally on their own, or it's not gonna have this channel not getting any posts on for the next three months. But let's think about how we can maintain things while also getting really excited about what's coming up. My practical brain just goes there. And then I really relate to what you said too, about your just relationships evolving. I've definitely felt that, you know, especially over the last 10 years in business, I feel like there's always so many, like, changes and things like that, and I think it's so. I think we have such an opportunity to be able to show up and surprise ourselves. Like, really, when you think that you can't show up in a different way or you can't, you can really surprise yourself. There's always a little bit of extra work you can do. There's always a bit more responsibility you can take. There's always. There's always something else you can do, whether that's directly in a conversation or relationship with person or people, or whether it's your own work. Like you said, you go to bed at night and your side of the street is clean. I think there's always so much we can do and learn in that situation, and that's definitely surprised me. Like, over the years, I've had so many team relationships or joint ventures, things like that. And to be able to navigate different seasons in a way that surprises you both, I think is amazing. And so it's like, never underestimate how you feel like you can show up. Like, you can always. You can always do yourself proud, I think.

Yeah, transitions are a really vulnerable period. So that's how I would look at it. It's a very. You feel very vulnerable, you feel very unprotected. So if we think of all of the things that transition, it's kind of like thinking of how a crab goes to a bigger shell.

He is.

So he. Not all crabs are male, but, oh, interesting. This one, this particular crab, his name is Bobby the crab, and he is. He is male. So he's going to his other shell in the process. He's a soft little crab. Have you had crab before? Have you eaten Bobby before? It's very soft. It's literally like you're going to seek protection in the interim. That is like the danger zone. But in order to get to the shell where he is growing to, he literally has to have that period of not knowing what's next. Next, like literally leaves not knowing, but knowing in his soul that he's meant to be in something bigger. Like that is instinctual. This is too tight. It doesn't fit. If I don't leave, I'm going to die, right? And I know that's dramatic, but it kind of is. Like your future is dying if you don't leave. The evolution of who you came here to be will be dead forever if you don't choose to evolve and to pivot. So you have to go get naked and run on the beach in hopes of your nails.

We want to see proof.

So you have to run naked to your next goal. But that's how it feels. It literally feels that bad. Some of you would way rather run naked into a shell or into the next hut down the beach six miles than to do an actual transition. Is that right?

I would.

At times I'm like, Look, I'll do 3am it's fine. No one's going to be out. I'll run naked. But let's think of another thing, like a potted plant who's had to move a smaller plant into. Into a bigger pot, right?

Never. Because I can't keep plants alive.

Lindsay, don't mind me, but this is like your skydiving analogy. Roll with me.

Okay.

Do you know me and Danielle once tried to give a speech and we thought it would be really smart to bring in a climbing analogy. Neither of us are climbers, and we got so distracted, we ended up finding a friend of a friend who was a climber and called him up and we were like, hey, we're doing no. While we're planning for the keynote, we're like, hey, hey, we're doing a keynote. We thought it'd be really good if we put a climbing analogy in here. So this is the analogy. Does it make sense? And he so calmly, without knowing us, just said, please don't do that. Please don't say that he was like, you're gonna get laughed at. And we only realized we were like two, three hours into the climbing analogy. We'd wasted three hours on a climbing analogy. And since then, I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna try and stay away from these analogies because didn't work out. I kid you not. Friend of a friend. We got him on a call. It wasn't even a big part of the keynote.

No, this is the best analogy right now. Here's why. Because when you're pivoting, you feel so vulnerable that anyone can come and tell you what direction to go and you believe them.

Yes.

So you get in a shell that was not for you at all. And you're like, why does this not work? And I have been in that position so many times where especially even doing talks, I'm like, like, oh, I shouldn't talk on what I know because that's dumb and not smart. And so I should talk on what I absolutely don't know and in two weeks try to learn about the science of, I don't know, hair growth. Don't ask me, why do we do that every single time? Because we don't trust ourselves that we have everything.

We need something new, fresh. If it's not new to us, then it's not new to anybody else.

We gotta trust ourselves in the transition. I love where this always just naturally goes, like, so good. So good. Do we just say, it's so good to ourselves?

And I know I jumped in, but.

I just had self affirmation.

No.

I don't know.

I look around and I see smiles.

That's what this is about. Yeah, the.

The pot.

So the potted plant thing is literally just. It goes through a phase where we actually, okay, I did do this. So it can go into shock if it's not, like, treated properly, if you don't really watch it. And I think that that is, again, where if you don't get into the right environment, if you don't support yourself, if you don't truly know what it's going to feel like if you don't really nurture yourself during that time and kind of block out the outside noise, like, you can go into shock. Number one, die again.

Right.

We're talking about this a lot. But truly, I really believe that when you're not following why you're here, it feels like you feel like the walking dead. I've been there. I've been there. Raise your hand if you're just like, oh, God, you can't find and you can't find the energy. Like, you just literally can't find the energy for anything. And you don't show up as yourself. You know what it feels like, even in the beginning of a transition, when you know you're moving in the direction of something for you and you're like, I'm still, like, in a real shitty situation. But, man, I feel good. Like, I've got energy. I'm excited. Like, if you're looking at my reality, still not great. But I'm excited because I'm saying yes to me and I'm no longer rejecting myself. Like, I've stopped listening to the experts because there will be a lot and they will even be great people. But you need to measure everything. You need to sit with it for a bit, you know, especially, I think, even writing books or naming podcasts or courses. Like, I don't know about you guys. Well, I do know, because this is everyone. But if we could just kind of talk about a time when maybe you went down that direction or you were swayed into something. Like, even with my book, they tried to get me to write a different book and a different title, and I was like. Like, I can't write any of this. Because when I sat down to do it, I was like, yeah, it might sell, but I can't sell a book if I can't write it. So just being talked into things by the experts, because they were experts and telling me this was gonna be the next whatever. So it's very shiny. So how about you guys?

Yeah, I think it's. There's something about an expert telling you something. It kind of gives you this promised future. I feel like when we're in a transition period, a part of us wants a promised future. A part of us wants to be told it's gonna work out. It's gonna be. And we want an expert to swoop in and say, this is going to be amazing, and put all of their confidence and trust in you. But I really think that it takes a lot of the fun away. And almost, if you have someone tell you the way it's going to be, you're robbing yourself of the experience of it being even better than you could ever imagine. And I've had so many of those experiences where people have told me to go a certain way, and I kind of go halfway down that path. Like, you're saying, whether it's naming a book or a course or even the idea of. Of a product, you know, I've nearly created so many physical products, they have never Materialized. But I get so far down a path, and I listen to so many different people, and all of a sudden I'm like, this wasn't the idea I had in the first place, and then I'll kind of abandon it and move on. And. And if I hadn't have kept listening and I would have just gotten quiet, I probably would have stopped creating that thing a long time ago and realized I didn't need another project. But I didn't.

Can I ask you a question, just so everybody knows, like, when you're doing that, there was money involved, right? Like, you put a lot of money on the line. You had a lot of money into the projects. You had a lot of money into, like, the timeline. Maybe you hired teams. Maybe you like all of the things. Maybe you told people. Maybe you brought people in that now you're embarrassed.

You're saying maybe because you know I did. Because I did, too.

And so you still stopped it once you knew it was wrong. So I want to tell you that, because you're going to think, I can't, because I have. I'm going to lose this money. I can't, because I told these people I can't. Because now this mentor knows I. And has put so much time into me, and I feel guilty, and I have to show up in this way because they invested in me. You can't drag a dead body up a hill.

Like, you can't.

You can't do it.

No. And I'm so glad you called that out, because that's the idea of, I'm gonna lose this money. Oh, my God. The amount of times, even so many situations that I've been in. But even this, you know, the idea I was gonna launch a product, and I was like, this is the new thing. Like, I'm not busy enough. I'm.

You know, I could use one more thing.

I need another thing. I was already pregnant at the time. Like, okay, one more. What's one more thing? And there was a lot of money in there. And, you know, we had a conversation of, like, do we really want to continue this? Or are we just doing. Because we think we should? And we decided to pause it. And rather than seeing it as money lost, it was kind of. That was an investment in kind of dipping our toe in and realizing we shouldn't have been doing it. And that investment has actually got me so much more focused than I would ever have been. And so it wasn't really a loss. Like, yes, it can feel like a bit of a loss, but I. I really Was able to see it. As if I hadn't have put the money in, I would have kept floating this idea in my head, telling myself, this is a genius idea.

Just the mental space that would have taken up.

I was sitting in my head for so long, this is a genius idea. No one's done this yet. Why don't I do this? Okay. I just need to do it. And it wasn't until I really invested the money and got serious about it that I realized, you know what? It probably is a good idea, but it's not my idea to loan. And if someone else goes and does it, then I'll buy it. And that feels really good. I'm glad I spent the money to do that.

100%. Reframe it and go back to the you before you were clear, when you were like, oh, should I do it? If someone said, I am going to give you exact extreme crystal clarity, if you pay me this amount, would you have paid it?

Yeah.

That's all that we do.

Same thing as well.

It's literally the same exact investment. And we just have to go down the path to experience what that is, because you can't see the path.

But we trust it more when it's an expert. We don't trust it so much when it feels like it's money that we lost because somehow we trust other people more than we trust ourselves.

Oh, yeah, me.

But I like reframing it like that. Like, oh, that was just someone I was paying to mentor me in this direction. I've never heard it like that before. That's a mic drop moment. We need the stuff. Get the mic.

We need the stuffed mic.

Sam.