The Real Reason Your Marketing Isn't Converting with Melissa Dlugolecki

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What a lot of people forget is that they're speaking their language.

Mm-hmm.

Especially, I love my manifestations, abundance, embodiment coaches, but people don't know that language.

Feminine embodiment coach. Yeah. I'm like, what are you solving? What do you do? I, I don't know. I don't wake up going, I just don't feel very feminine and I don't feel very body.

Exactly.

I'm like, I'm freaking out, man. I'm having a panic attack.

We overcomplicate it. It's like we think we have to overcomplicate it, but simplicity sells.

Melissa, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much. I'm psyched to be here.

I'm so excited. We're actually getting to record one of the many conversations that you and I have had together, and you are our resident marketing expert in so many areas. You have your own incredible marketing business, but you are also one of our coaches in Mentor Collective Mastermind in the marketing arena. And I can tell you that you are one of our busiest people because, because marketing is one of the most important pieces of your business. And I think a lot of people get really confused about it. They get overwhelmed by it. And I think that that is where a lot of people's missing piece to where the income is, marketing, messaging, all of those things that go into it. So I would love to know, because you've spent 10 years as a teacher.

Yes.

So yeah, you all, fun fact about Melissa, you guys, she also travels with a whiteboard.

Yeah.

Because this is, if this is giving you an insight to how her brain works, it really works in whiteboarding and funnels and getting everything systematized and something that as a creative is challenging for us to sometimes understand. So for you, tell me about how 10 years as a teacher has now played into marketing, how you got into it.

Mm.

Yes.

Marketing is all the things. Thank you so much for having me, by the way. I'm so excited to be here and to actually have like a, a recorded conversation.

I know.

Um, marketing for me, I was resistant to being termed a marketing person. I had this story, if any listener can resonate, that if you were into marketing, you were fake. You were faking it if you needed marketing. And that was my ego. Like, just in hindsight, it was my ego that just wanted— I don't know. I, and I had this moment where I realized, Melissa, nobody's waking up saying, how do I hire Melissa today? Like, entrepreneurship is very humbling. And so that was kind of a segue into studying and understanding marketing more. But to the education component, um, and I'm sure, you know, you can relate to this and a number of people listening, but I never thought this would be what I was doing. I was a teacher for 10 years. I was a high school special educator for students with social-emotional and language-based learning disabilities. So my brain worked in maps for them and, and understanding like how they were receiving information and how they were processing that and how they were expressing it in a way that was understood. So when I left education, I spent 5 years as a high school athletic director after that. So that really helped me, uh, toughen up, I think, a little bit and not take things personally. But when I left, I thought, well, there goes that education degree. I'll never use that. But truthfully, understanding how emotions and language impacts our ability to learn, AKA absorb information, was an incredible foundation for marketing because all marketing is, is how can you convey who you are and what you do in a way that is understood and felt. And that was my whole background. Mhm. Yeah.

Okay, that's what I want to get into because honestly a lot of people get confused even of what marketing entails. I know even when I was, you know, got into my CPG company, um, which a physical product outside, outside of when I was doing digital products, and people are like, oh, you just need a really good marketer, you need a great marketing team. I'm like, okay, but what does that all entail? What would you say? How would you describe to everybody listening? Because everybody has a different an idea of what is all included in marketing. What, in your personal opinion, is all of that? What's encompassed in that?

So when I say funnels, sometimes people cringe, their nervous system goes flying. But think of your sales funnel as like your sales engine. It is how people first find you to hiring you. It is that whole journey is your sales funnel.

Yep.

Marketing is the vehicle that takes them along the journey. So it's going to be everything from your landing pages to your messaging to your branding to your email campaigns, to your social media, even your onboarding and client experience, because you are marketing to your clients to why they should continue to be with you and why they should maybe go on to the next offer or go into a membership. And so everyone has marketing and everyone has a funnel. Everyone has a sales funnel, whether they know it or not, whether they know it or not, whether it's the DMs or— Exactly.

Yeah.

Everyone, you know, I hear people say, I don't like funnels. Well, everyone, if you take payment. Mm-hmm. The journey from somebody discovering your work to you taking payment is some sort of a funnel.

Mm-hmm.

Now you might just get referrals and that's gonna be an exhausting funnel, right? Because you're very dependent constantly on that. But so you wanna build in the marketing. It actually takes a lot of the hamster wheel heavy lifting off of you when you can build your marketing and brand to have you visible, have you seen in a way that works. Cuz it's not just about visibility. And people misunderstand, 'cause if you're being seen, I'm gonna go off here, but this is what I always say. I, I built everything organically, so I built everything in my businesses organically. I'm not against paid ads, but I think so many people light money on fire going to paid ads when their funnel and their marketing isn't dialed in.

Mm-hmm.

Because yes, you're more visible, but if you're confusing and your funnel isn't dialed in, you're just confusing to more people. Yeah. And now you're paying to lose people. Because your funnel isn't dialed in.

Yeah.

So I don't know if that answers your question.

I'll go. That's huge. And you know, I really want to talk about the fact that you have done this. You built to 7 figures with 4,000 followers. Yeah. But back to the organic and ads as well, it's like so many people just hear right now that ads are hot again for a lot of people.

Yeah.

They're using them, they're working really well. But like you said, if the brand message is not clear, you're actually paying for people to come to your page and bounce really fast.

Correct.

Because they don't understand, they don't feel like it was for them. They don't—

correct.

The messaging is not aren't there, the testimonials aren't there. Like, there's a lot that goes into marketing and funnels and all the things. So tell me what you did to build, when you were building, like, to 7 figures with, oh, with 4,000 followers, which is so amazing. That's why I love talking about this, especially with someone who's like, well, they had a big following, they had this, they had that. You did not.

And what did you do that can still apply now?

Yeah, so I don't think that I've ever been able to master my messaging as well as I did in my first business. Because it was such a clear problem solved and such a clear woman served.

Oh, tell me all about it.

Okay. So my first business was holistic health, uh, coaching. So it was the alternative to fad diets. It was for the former versions of me who were counting calories, running them off on the treadmill, uh, saying, you know, I'll start Monday when they started to eat something crappy on the weekend, going off the rails all weekend and then starting Monday. And that would probably last till Wednesday and then they would go into a shame spiral. Mm-hmm. And not, not unhealthy, but just stuck and in this loop. And my grief journey, I lost my daughter to sick gut. So that led me— it was called necrotizing enterocolitis. But that led me to study gut health. I didn't even know what it was. This was in 2014, before it was like a thing. And so I began studying gut health. And in doing that, I got myself off of that hamster wheel and the cravings stopped and the yo-yo dieting stopped. And so then teacher in me started to teach that. And I was doing free workshops at juice bars, at yoga studios, anywhere I could get in front of people. And I would print worksheets and I would— this teacher, right? I would bring printed worksheets. Um, I did one in the basement of my church back where I lived in Boston, and I had my worksheets and I, uh, had little K-Cups, you know, those like little pills in them. And I'm pouring samples of juice that I went and drove to pick up.

You and I were probably doing the same thing around the same time. Okay, keep going.

And I'm explaining, well, pineapple helps with digestion and celery Celery juice does this. Mm-hmm. And there was something that was so easy for people to latch onto.

Mm-hmm.

Like I became the celery juice girl and the matcha girl, and then everyone's posting on Instagram drinking their celery juice.

Yeah.

So I think simplicity was a huge part of, uh, being able to really compound and grow movement. Mm-hmm. I was very clear on who I served. You know, it was always like, um, you know, I would call, I would do workshops and call them green juice and grape juice.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so we're going to have our green juice and we're going to have our wine.

Yep.

But that was so clear to the women I was speaking to who wanted to be healthy and social. Right. But just with a clever name and then really clear about, you know, you're healthy, you're doing all the things, we're just going to get you off of this roller coaster.

Yep.

So that really became a movement. And that's where then I think brand really came into play. I didn't know what brand was. I didn't realize that we were branded.

Mm-hmm.

But brand isn't— because I didn't have fancy photo shoots. Brand isn't like a font or a color palette.

It—

I, I believe it is. Those are vehicles that can bring your brand to life.

Yeah.

So the colors and the fonts, they will bring your brand to life, right? But for me, brand is how someone experiences you, what they associate you with. And is it like a movement? And we created— I was working with another woman at this time and we created such a movement and a culture and a we had our own language in our program. Everyone felt this strong identity. And yeah, I mean, that's how it really grew. And then I moved into business coaching as people said, well, how did you just do that? And then into marketing.

What would you say were some of the things that through that journey and experience that you have pulled now into everything that you teach? Like, what were some through lines that you're— you really learned within that?

Uh, consistency, 100%, from I'm gonna use funnel language again. Mm-hmm. But top of funnel through onboarding. One of the mistakes I see is that people put so much effort into one part of the funnel or the other. And so for a listener who's like, well, what does she mean by that? The front part, like the front end of your business is gonna be your marketing and everything that gets them to the point of becoming a client.

Mm-hmm.

Now it becomes fulfillment and onboarding and client delivery. And I see some people who are excellent at fulfillment and client delivery, but they're not strong at marketing. Mm-hmm. Then I see people who are really good at marketing, but then the wheels fall off, you know, when it comes to fulfillment and delivery. And people will feel like, you know, it was a candy store in the front, liquor store in the back. Mm-hmm. You know, and like they were sold a bag of goods.

Yep.

And so I think understanding how to use messaging, like messaging was always my thing to create a consistent experience where the client feels seen and heard. At every touchpoint all the way throughout is so important.

We hear that a lot. Like some people can just like have the most insane marketing where you want to buy the second you just feel so seen and understood. And I'm like, just buy, take all of my money. Like I'm already in. And then all of a sudden on the other side you're like, whoa, this is not what was promised at all. And I do believe it's not because they're trying to bait and switch you. I believe they were just such great top-of-funnel marketers that they didn't get the people that they needed on the fulfillment side. Or what we actually see a lot in our community, and I know what I've always struggled with too, is like my programs and people's programs can be insane, life-changing. Like we hear this all the time in our community, but I know if I get in there, I know if they get on the program, like I get results for people.

Yep.

But people are scrolling right past, they're not opting in, they're not getting what they want. And so much of that is from a lot of what you had chatted about where it's just not clear. Like they're using, they're using language that they think is cute. They're using like, really, um, they're trying to create their own language before people know what it is. Like they're trying to use inside community language before outside community even understands what that is. What would you say for those people? Where would they go and where would they start for the ones who are like, no, I have an amazing program, but I just can't seem to like get the people to look at it.

Oh, I love this question. So a couple of things that I like, activities that I have people do when we're working on their marketing, or we even do when we're building out people's marketing strategy, is one, we look at, okay, everybody speaks to the pain of a person, but they don't speak to the symptoms enough. Meaning, and I have like a worksheet, of course I do, where it says if I'm watching your ideal client on Netflix, what are they doing as a result having not hired you? And that forces people to get into the visualization of their ideal client, whether, you know, that person is Googling, uh, how do I grow my business, or how do I grow my social media, or they're scrolling and in black holes of comparison.

Yep.

Now instead of speaking to the, you don't know what to do on social media, stop scrolling, and falling into black holes of comparison. Someone's gonna be like, shit, that stops the scroll because they're like, oh, that's me. It's the same offer. It's just we're getting— we're too fuzzy when we're talking about the pain. Everyone says talk about pain, right? And yes, you can, but I would, I would encourage deeper emotions like the shame that you feel when you're scrolling, right? Um, and then another activity that I have people do is just really look at— it's more just something to remember if you're trying to work on the way that you're speaking to your ideal client. I had a coach, a copywriting coach, tell me once, like, Melissa, like, you're talking to a drunk person at a bar.

I was like, oh, that's very true.

That simple. And I said, imagine that. And I use the example all the time. So imagine I say, Lori, I'm gonna learn Mandarin. You're like, oh, okay, Melissa, like, go ahead, do your thing, right?

Yeah.

And I'm like, I'm gonna learn Mandarin. And to pick up my phone And Instagram's always listening, so I get hit with an ad for Mandarin.

Yep.

Free. Exactly what I just said I wanted.

Mm-hmm.

But the ad's in Mandarin.

Mm.

I don't know that language yet.

Mm-hmm.

And so it has to be in English. I'm gonna scroll right by, even though it's exactly what I said I wanted. And if it was in English, I would click. And so what a lot of people forget is that they're speaking their language. Mm-hmm. Especially, I love my manifestations, abundance, embodiment coaches. But people don't know that language.

No.

Right. And I mean, I lived in Tulum for 5 years and I was like, ladies, how much did we see like feminine embodiment coach?

I'm like, what are you solving? What do you do? I don't know. I don't wake up going, I just don't feel very feminine and I don't feel very embodied. Exactly. I'm like, I'm freaking out, man. I'm having a panic attack.

Yes, exactly. Well, that's exactly another tool that I work with our clients on, or just anyone I'm coaching in Mentor Collective Mastermind. If your person's laying awake at night, are they saying, if only I was more embodied, I'd be happy?

Mm-hmm.

Right?

And so it's such a simple thing that we're like, oh, duh. And I think what happens— and you talk about this all the time, I mean, you do so much like mastery of messaging— but we overcomplicate it. It's like we think we have to overcomplicate it, but simplicity sells.

Mm-hmm.

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It's so true. Like, you just want to see that someone understands your pain. Yeah, like, truly, I want them to know exactly what you said— the symptom of, yes, I am in a black hole of comparison right now. If I see one more person talk about their million-dollar launch, I'm gonna go, like, smash my phone. Yeah, exactly. And so I think it's those moments where it's like, oh, I'm totally normal, I'm not doing something wrong. This is a very normal feeling for an entrepreneur. Like, we all just want feel like it's normal and there is a path. Like, tell me that there is a path. And I know you and I have even been talking about like the type of customer that you're attracting. So it's like, what if you could just chat about that just for a minute of the languaging around— sometimes, you know, especially as an early entrepreneur, we can have a program that we worked really hard to fill, and all of a sudden we look at our clients and we're like, wow, as great as this is, this has also been the most exhausting experience of my life. They've needed handholding, they've complained, there's been so many refunds, Can you tell me about the nuances of languaging in your marketing? Yeah. In terms of attracting people?

Yes.

I learned this even when we teach this stuff, it's hard to see for ourselves.

Oh my gosh.

Yes.

Right.

And I, when I transitioned from health coaching to business coaching, I had, um, a program called 90 Days CEO. And ultimately I was helping people like kind of build their sales funnels, right? And, and their whole strategy.. And I, in my Instagram bio, had built a 7-figure business with 4,000 followers and no paid ads. So who, in hindsight, who did I attract in? People who were not present on social. Mm-hmm. They didn't want to be present on social. Yep. They didn't want to budget for investing in paid ads, but they wanted the 7 figures.

Yeah.

Right. And I, no, I know. And I kept attracting in these people. And I didn't understand it. And then at the same time, I was, I didn't really, I was like, and then remember we talked about like identity crisis. I was like in an identity crisis at this time cuz I like now had moved to Tulum. I'd built a 7-figure business. It was former teacher in Boston. Mm-hmm. Like very different.

Very different. Right? Yeah.

And I'm like, what do I do? You know?

Mm-hmm.

And so I'm looking on social media and I see like all these women in business crushing it in these beautiful dresses and these, like stilettos. So I start and I do these photo shoots and I realize I'm putting all these pictures up. I'm never showing myself working. And the reality is I have whiteboards in my kitchen. Mm-hmm. I'm working 7 days a week.

She does everyone. I do.

Mm-hmm.

And at the time I was working 7 days a week and I loved it. It didn't feel like work to me. Yeah. And I worked out and worked and whiteboarded and went to bed and that was it. But then I'm like, here's my photo shoot. This is what you're supposed to do, right? Like super awkward. So I was attracting in all these people who didn't wanna work. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I wanted to wear dresses. They just wanted to do photo shoots. Yeah, exactly. And have no followers and no paid ads. So those nuances are so important. You need to look at your bio, or for me it was photos and my bio, and be like, who is this speaking to?

Mm-hmm.

And when I looked at it, and when I speak on stage, I just did this last weekend when I was in Alaska, and I, I put a picture of my old Instagram feed in like 2022 or something to now. And I wouldn't have looked at 2022 Melissa and been like, I want to pay her a lot of money to run my marketing and business because she looks like she doesn't fuck around. It was like, oh, I want that lifestyle.

Yeah, you know what I mean? Totally.

But I wasn't even showing myself. It was like I was trying to do something and I was actually devaluing what I was doing.

Yeah, it's, it's so interesting looking at yourself in terms of everything you do as a brand.

Yes.

And all of a sudden you back up and you're like, oh yeah, I've been giving a very different message.

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

So if someone is listening right now and they're starting to diagnose themselves with some different things, what would you say are some other reasons why people's products aren't selling that you see when they come to you?

Yes. So I mean, the first thing I look at is viability of your offer. Are you putting out an offer that people actually want.

Yeah.

And I learned this the hard way. I tried launching something because in my mind it was so great and it was so good.

Totally. We've done this.

Yes. And I was like, this is the best thing ever. Two people signed up.

Yeah.

And I'd already built a 7-figure business, right? So it's so humbling, right? Like, the amount of ego deaths in this journey. Oh, I like love it and hate it. Um, I didn't market test appropriately. Appropriately to see if that was what my ideal client wanted. That was the feedback for me that led me to build an agency, because the feedback I got was they didn't want coaching and mastermind. They were very, very busy. They wanted to take shit off their plate, right? Which then led to building a 7-figure agency. So there's— and I want to reinforce this for everyone— I don't believe in failure. Kobe Bryant always said this: there's no such thing as failure, it's only feedback. And so, um, find the feedback in that. So the number one thing I would say is Have you market tested to see if people actually want your product? Mm-hmm. Then have you market tested to figure out the messaging that translates to them? So I will test and I will do polls and I will send out, uh, hand-raising emails to get replies back. Even if it's the same exact webinar, even if it's the same exact product, how I'm gonna market it will depend on their language. So what we're talking about right there is very top of funnel. A couple of other areas where I think people struggle is, uh, like imagine we have this beautiful champagne glass. Mm-hmm. Okay. And we want, we're pouring more champagne in, but there's like holes. Now I want champagne, right? But there's holes in the champagne glass.

Yeah.

Right. So for a lot of people, those holes are no onboarding system or no nurturing system or no lead magnet.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, no DM automation. So they're doing all this to do more and get leads or paid ads and posting more, but they have all these holes. So, The champagne is leaking out, which is no bueno.

No bueno.

No bueno. We don't wanna leak out champagne. And so I think most people are working way harder than they need to be. And then they fall into a hamster wheel because they have all these holes in their, I mean, whatever your version of champagne is. I just have had that in my mind since this morning.

We're gonna talk champagne.

Yeah.

Because we don't wanna lose it.

Yeah.

Um, yes, you're driving in, there's so much extra work being done that doesn't need to be done. Or imagine if that extra work on the top of funnel was actually being caught.

Exactly.

By that, it's like, that is, that is what we are going for.

I had a woman, I'll just tell you this, I, I literally almost fell over my chair. She got over 900 opt-ins to a DM automation for a lead magnet, didn't collect their email or leave them anywhere. And I was like, let me help you. Yeah, like, that's a lot. And she just didn't know. Cool.

Yeah.

And that's like no judgment. And then that's, that's why you have people, coaches around you, mentors around you, or people who can help you figure that out and their expertise. But I mean, that right there is a lot of money that— and, and clients she can serve and impact.

Yeah.

That was just sitting right there.

I know. I think that's one of the biggest things that I used to do way in the past, but then that I also see, you know, you'll see these really big, um, influencers with big followings and they aren't catching all those people.

No.

And it's just like all of this money left on the table because we both know so many people who have huge followings but aren't monetizing in the way, in the way that they could. So what do you think is like some of the biggest problems that you solve for your clients?

I think two things primarily. Mm-hmm. One is going to be that messaging and offer positioning. Like, how are we positioning your offer top of funnel so that people want to, you know, want to continue and go further, right? And we do a lot of market testing.

Is that the main thing you see is mostly top of funnel problems?

It depends on the business, honestly. So like my company, and I coach both of these, Mentor Collective Mastermind, right? I coach both the, that top of funnel, but then also really the funnel. And so I've built my my marketing company accordingly, where we have two main ways of working with people. One is social media messaging, branding done for you. The second is funnel build and design because, uh, there are two major problems that needed to be solved.

Yeah.

Because a lot of people struggle when they bring people in. Maybe they give 'em a lead magnet, but they have no nurturing sequence.

Mm-hmm.

So anyone with a lead magnet, you want a 4 or 5 email sequence that's strategic. That lets someone know who you are, what you believe in, what you do, what it means to work with you, how to work with you, some social proof and case studies. Now this is across a few emails, not one. No one wants to read that long of an email.

Right.

But they're not nurturing them. So they're maybe getting people who are interested and you know, when you're kind of thinking about buying something but then you like forget about it.

Mm-hmm.

You forget about it.

Mm-hmm.

And so the name of the game is just constantly being on someone's radar.

Yep.

Because I think this is important, is that just because you put a post up doesn't mean a person who sees that post is in a position in that moment where they want that problem solved, right?

Could be on a walk, could be in the car, could be just not the best timing right then.

Exactly. But they see it and they see it again and they see it again, and then 4 or 5 days later, weeks later, they realize that this is a problem they really need solved. And you took up their headspace, they're coming to you. And so I think you've gotta take up people's headspace very consistently, very clearly. Uh, if you're jumping around so much, you're not gonna be resonating as like a go-to for one thing.

Yeah.

But you wanna be in someone's headspace. So when they're driving or when they wake up and they wanna throw their phone, right? Mm-hmm. That the person that they can think of that can solve that problem is you. Mm-hmm.

Let's talk about when people in early phases of their business, or actually it's pretty much everybody if they're not a natural front-facing person.

Yeah.

Like they feel annoying. Oh my gosh, I've posted this already. I've posted, I feel like I'm posting so much. Like what do you think it actually takes to be that top of mind person?

Yeah, definitely a lot of humbling knowing None of us are like, none of us are that important that people are paying that close of attention.

Totally.

And, and just a reminder of yourself, like, who are you to not take up this space? Mm-hmm. But also, I, I had a coach tell me this once, and I think about it all the time. Nobody ahead of you is judging you. Nobody ahead of you is judging you. So are you gonna give your power and your business to that person you're afraid of judging you when there's no way, no one ahead of you has time to judge you. And so, so true, right? And so I think it was honestly a lot of mindset to be able to do that, and then reps. It's like one of those things where you're afraid it's really gonna hurt, and then as you start to do it, you realize it doesn't really hurt, and then you forget about it. Because I deleted some of my first posts. I mean, I was a teacher, we couldn't— I couldn't post on social media, right? I was a high school teacher, I couldn't have like a life on social media. But, um, yeah, that was a lesson that I definitely had to learn.. And the ones where I get vulnerable and like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that went up. 'Cause now my team does it for me. You know, I work with them on the strategy, but they actually create it. Um, sometimes I see it and I'm like, I wanna take it down. And I'm like, that's exactly the new edge you have to lean into.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. What do you think are the posts that do really well for people? Like, what do you think is, uh, resonating the most right now? And I know you guys just took over, um, Chris's social and it's doing great. Very excited cuz he's, has no time for it at all, but it feels like him, obviously, because it's just pulled from all, all of his stuff. But your team really, I feel like, is nailing it. But tell me what posts you think people are avoiding but they should be going for in marketing.

Oh, there's— there are so many different types of values of posts. So some posts are very valuable because they're attraction or engagement based. Those aren't gonna be the ones that convert, right? Those feel good. Yeah. We're gonna get more engagement. They're gonna get more likes. There's benefit, especially cuz it can get new eyes on your page. But the ones that are going to really resonate, I think, uh, a technique that works well is sometimes people can better understand you when they understand what you are not. So rather than trying to explain what you are, sometimes it's more effective to explain what you are not.

Can you gimme an example?

So, um, I am not paid ads. I'm all organic, right? And so now somebody knows, oh, marketing. Okay, now we're more clear. It's all, all organic, right? When I was in health, we do not do fad diets, we do not count calories. Because sometimes, like, especially those women in health, they didn't necessarily know what they wanted because, like, they didn't even know what existed. But they knew they didn't want to count calories, and they knew that they didn't want to do fad diets.

Totally.

So oftentimes I think taking a strong stance on what you are not, and that often means calling out something that is popular, which is gonna ruffle some feathers.

Yep.

I don't believe in being polarizing just for the sake of being polarizing.

Totally. Honestly drives me crazy, actually.

Yeah, me too.

Like crazy.

Yes. I don't believe in being polarizing to be polarizing, but I think if we're people pleasing in our content, mm-hmm, it will show in our sales.

Oh, for sure. I, I went through a hard people pleasing phase because obviously nobody wants to wake up and feel like social media is a battlefield, you know, or like, oh my God, what am I— am I going to get judged, picked on, like canceled? What is this going to look like? And I do think there's a fine line of like, okay, how do we stand for our opinions in a powerful way that doesn't put someone else down specifically or call someone out? But you stand for something.

Yeah.

Have you found like, how have you struck a balance with that. What does that look like for you?

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Well, I always try and look at what do I need to stand for that is relative to my audience. Mm-hmm. So there's a lot of stuff that I don't share because, not because I'm hiding it. Mm-hmm. But because it's just not relevant. Right. And so if I am sharing something, I use a term that I call bridging, which is taking something seemingly unrelated to what I do and then bridging it back. Yeah. To what I do. And so unless it makes sense, like unless I can, I would say make it make sense. Yeah. Unless I can make it make sense, I'm not putting it up. Yeah, that makes sense. Like I have my own beliefs on, you know, world happenings and all these things happening, but it has nothing to do with what I do. Mm-hmm. It doesn't show up in my work and it's irrelevant. And so those aren't areas that I go to, right? Yeah. Even my, my family, like I don't have my family on my social. I love my family. They're like the most important people to me. Maybe a couple posts a year, but they don't choose to be in the spotlight just because I'm on social, and it's also not relevant to what I do, right? So I'm really, really aware of that.

Yeah, I think, you know, for me it's gotten confusing at certain points of my life because I'm like, oh my gosh, be authentic, I have to show everything. And that felt like way too much, way too much. And so now I'm very clear on what I'm going to share on social and what I'm not. And what I will not be bullied into sharing on social either. And so that's actually helped me show up even more because I'm like, nope, here's how I show up, here's how I do not show up. And no matter what, this is, this is clear for me what this is. And for me, social really is as fun as it is. It is my job. Job. It is literally how I have gotten paid for over 15 years. Yep. So 100%, you have to set boundaries. With that. And while I do share a lot of things, you know, with my marriage, that also can relate back to my job because Chris and I, Chris and I work together and we love talking about that dynamic. So I love, I love that. And I think that's freeing for you guys who are listening. Like sometimes it can feel too exposing. Mm-hmm. And the nice thing is to set some boundaries for yourself to know like, hey, this is private, this is for me, this is mine. Like I don't ever have to go on there and do that. So, all right, let's talk a little bit about, um, AI and how it's playing into marketing. Like, what team are you on? AI? No AI? I already stand.

I like swap teams.

Yeah, that's okay. I like—

I don't know, can I have like an in the middle? You can.

Like hybrid? Is that a fair weather fan?

You can do that. My fair weather fan. Yeah, we're like the top jersey for one team and the bottom pants for another.

All right, as long as it's a crop jersey. Absolutely. On brand. We have to stop. On brand.

Um, I was so anti-AI. So anti-AI because for me it felt inauthentic because remember I was anti-marketing because I had a story that it was fake. Yep. It's not, it's not. I mean it can be, but just like anything can be used different ways, right? Yeah. And I did a very intensive training on AI and I also realized it's a reality. If I am not learning it and working with it, it's gonna be my opponent for sure. So rather than having it as my opponent, how do I make it my teammate? Me and how do I work with it? But kind of like we were just talking about on social media, how do I work with it way on my terms and my boundaries without losing the humanity, without losing the authenticity? Um, we have tested doing, you know, carousels and certain things. There are apps and things you can do. They don't meet our standard. We don't use that in my company yet. AI is the worst they'll ever be. Um, but there are certain aspects in which we do find it very helpful. I I like even just kind of going back and forth and like almost soundboarding sometimes if it's well programmed. We very— yeah, it's a thought partner.

Yeah, like that, that's actually how I work best is, you know, like getting my best ideas. I used to go on, uh, podcast walks or runs and I would get ideas from other people's ideas. Yes. So for me now, I'm obsessed with it because I get ideas from ideas, right? And so it might start with a shitty idea, but I'm like Oh yeah, there might be something there. Let's, let's play with it.

100%. And we did like a really extensive training, uh, you know the woman, and she was one of Meta's top, you know, AI trainers and like ran ads and everything. And so I did an in-person there and really began to understand it. And as I was learning to build out like my personally programmed, uh, it's like a skill, um, voice, brand voice, I had to do competitor research. So I'm in Claude and I'm what are my top competitors? And it puts them back. And I said, well, actually, you're my top competitor, right? And so how do I work with that now? And so Cloud was like, nice job. But Cloud will be a people pleaser, so you have to be very careful.

Yeah, for sure, you have to push back.

Um, but since we have learned how to really like code— Lori, I like honestly struggle figuring out the camera that we're going to use later to do content, you know what I mean? Like, I am not technology, and I like learned how to code. I was I was so proud of myself. Wow, cool. But to answer your question, how I feel about it is almost irrelevant. Mm-hmm. Because it's an, it's a reality. Yeah, totally. And so how I guess my stance on it is how do I work with it in a way that feels authentic? Mm-hmm. Um, and doesn't compromise the quality of the work we create. Mm-hmm.

So are you to the point where you have agents in your, do you have agents working in your business and what are they doing?

Yes. So our agents right now are primarily around copy.

That's more of a skill.

Mm-hmm. Um, we do have brand voice. Um, and we do video editing. We have some others that are built out. I just don't have them at the level of the standard that we hold for our content creation. Yes, yet.

Totally.

Um, but we are working on it. Um, we've got a video scripting one that can like create and send scripts. Oh, one that I do love, a market research agent that can daily— so it's already programmed. This agent is programmed with like my niche, what I do, competitors. And then when I say competitors, like I want everyone to win. I don't believe in competition. Like We all make each other better, honestly. Um, but you learn from each other, right? And it can scrape from that day. Yeah. And then come up with talking points, posts, or video scripts relevant to that day. Mm-hmm. Which I think is really helpful because I actually don't spend a lot of time on social media and I don't want to. Yep. And so to have that keep up for what people are talking about in my specific niche, has been huge. That's awesome.

Tell me about some things that you see that are big fails when you're like, oh God, do people know that this is like— everybody can tell this is AI, or that they should really not be using it here?

Yeah, I mean, I think landing pages are all beginning to look the same. Yep, very much so. And I'm very in tune with that, seeing that my company designs them. And honestly, maybe it doesn't matter, but for me it's like a standard. I don't want to be putting something out there that is clearly— someone's like, oh, that's a Claude page. Maybe if I was an AI, I would, right? Copywriting, huge one. I think people are starting to sound more and more alike. Yeah. And you can absolutely tell like that ChatGPT or Claude, they have certain frameworks and they have certain tells. So I think those are the two that I notice the most. I know some people who use carousels for like they use AI for carousels and to me I just want to just don't take that down. Please. Yeah. You know, but if that person wants to, like, it's to their own. But to me it's like you're, you're diluting your authenticity and you're diluting your brand when you start to sound like everybody else. Mm-hmm. And I know how much you believe in brand and authenticity. So what is the price that you're paying to dilute two very valuable assets in the world of personal brand? Right? I don't, I don't work in a corporation where personal brand doesn't matter. So everything I do is around personal brand for me and my clients. And so if we're diluting authenticity and we're diluting like our brand power, I think it's way more costly than people realize when it's not done correctly.

Totally. I, I think some things like when I'm— when, when you're working with AI, you know, I, I use it for just about everything. But what I do is, like I said, it's like a thought partner. So even if I'm using it for content, I go back in and I'm like, what's always missing with AI is a story. There's never story. And so if you don't start with a story while you're creating content, it's just going to give you what it's giving everybody else. And you're going to see the same post over and over again. And so I think always going back in or starting with story of whatever you're doing, whether that is a landing page or whether that is, you know, a content strategy, it's like, how were you feeling? Yeah. What were those? You know what we talked about before? What are like all of the nuances that are going on that AI would never understand? Because there's a whole lot of stuff out there that just has zero feeling whatsoever. And I think that's where we're just losing, we're just losing people in our sales pages and content is there's zero feeling and zero story at all.

100%. 100%.

So what would you say is your number one piece of advice for someone looking to build their business in regards to their marketing and sales?

Oh, you want to be visible. You have to take up headspace, right? Attention is currency. But back to what we said earlier, I want you to be visible effectively. Mm-hmm. And so that is going to be your messaging and that is going to be really your brand experience of how people feel you and experience you and what they associate you with. And so I would dial those in and then commit to being seen everywhere so people can't not see you. Mm-hmm. You know, all different platforms, multiple times a day. You can reuse content. After a month or something. I mean, people can do it sooner than that, but no one's gonna remember a post you did a month ago, you know, or just change a couple things. But you gotta commit to being seen to the point where it would be impossible for you to not be hired. But I don't want you to get to that level of volume until you've dialed in, am I landing on eyes in a way that's actually effective? So that's where I would absolutely start.

You know, you and I have been talking just in the last couple days, um, about how a lot of times for people, again, I really feel people are going to be listening to this who already have an offer. Yeah. Who are like, oh my God, times have changed. This isn't working. My offer is not working anymore. My mastermind is not working anymore. Like the, you know, everything is shifting in a new direction. So they're trying to come up with 500 different things. Yeah. Which, by the way, you might need something different. Yeah. But how would you suggest for them to first go back and tweak things? Would you tweak the pricing? Would you start with the messaging? Like, where are those tweaks before you before you just totally chuck everything out the window. Yeah. What would you say that you do run? And I know that we're saying the same thing over and over, but I want people to really understand, like, you may not have to blow up your business. It's probably your marketing.

It's probably your marketing. Yeah. And a term that I use all the time in marketing is positioning. Yeah. So you might just have to reposition yourself in the market. You may have to reposition your offer, but you might— you probably don't have to change your offer. At all. In fact, fun fact, I was a VA agency when I started, not marketing. Hmm. I didn't really do anything different. We built funnels and we made social media, but it was too general and it didn't solve a clear problem. And the second I was like, oh, marketing, like that's really what we do. Yeah. Like it just took off. I didn't change my offer, I just repositioned my marketing. Totally. So I think that is probably the case for a lot of people. If you wanna get very clear on where your drop-off is, This is where— and if you go to my website, I have like a funnel diagram because I'm that obsessed, literally on my website. But you want to go from where you're lacking. Are you lacking people engaging and opting in? Are you lacking email open rates or lead magnet downloads? Are you lacking in book calls or DM inquiries? Are you lacking in conversions? Are you lacking in retention? Mm. Those are all very different problems. And so if you're lacking in retention, your marketing is probably not the problem. You're getting the clients, right? If you're lacking in conversions, your marketing is probably not the problem. You're getting the calls or the DMs. You just gotta work on sales. If you're not getting the leads, you need to work on marketing. And so most of the time it's lead acquisition for people, but I always just encourage you to look at all points of that and get really clear and like, where's my actual isolated problem?

Oh my God, it's so powerful because especially if you're a solopreneur or a small team, you don't even know where to look first. You're just like, it's broken. And so if you are a front-facing visionary, you're like, let's blow it up and start over. Because if you've had something work too, really organically, where all of a sudden you could just say one thing in the past and it works and it converted and people are in your offer and it was great, it's like, it's hard to think that like that's going to work. Or you think that that's going to work again over and over and it's just not. It's literally not. You were probably perfect place, perfect time, perfect message. And if you're going to be in this for the long haul, you have to understand marketing and be really, really willing to consistently shift and get the right people around you. Because let me tell you, this is not— do you find this is normally one type of brain? No, no, it's pretty much like— tell me who comes to you, like who's your ideal client? I have—

I have two ideal clients. Typically they have a common denominator where they don't have time, right? Um, but the first is the person who really doesn't know how to be seen and visible on social media. And the second is the one whose nervous system goes skyrocketing when they hear funnel. Mm-hmm. And they just want somebody to strategize, design, and build it for them. My brain works in maps. My brain works in funnels. It's just like anytime we're even talking about things, like I am mapping it in my brain when we're talking about products and offers and this could go here and then this So go here. I tend to help people with that the most. Usually coaches, consultants, service providers are 90% of who we work with and people building personal brands or, and so when I say I have two types of clients, this might untangle it a little bit more as I'm thinking as we talk through. One, people who are building their personal brands, they tend to need more of the visibility, but then people who have personal brands tend to need more of the funnel. Mm-hmm. Um, and I actually was talking to Chris about this and I said, well, I actually couldn't afford to lose leads when I started. I couldn't afford to not convert clients. I couldn't afford to not retain clients. So I had my funnel so fucking dialed in because I had 4,000 followers. I couldn't afford to lose them. And so honestly, if we take that and apply it to people with bigger brands, there's usually a lot of money that is available there for sure.

Because if you're, if you're making even decent money but you have a large following, you haven't even touched— like, the percentage that you've probably converted is so small when I think of it in terms of that. Yep. That when you really get this whole ecosystem working, that's when it gets really exciting. Yeah. Very exciting. Okay. So what is most exciting for you right now?

Oh my goodness. Um, I am beginning to play with lower ticket offers, which I've never done. Yeah. So especially when you're trying to scale and you don't have a large audience, of course you're going high ticket. Yep. Right. So I've always been high ticket ever since I started. Even that first health coaching program was $3,000. Yeah. Which is a lot. Mm-hmm. Right. And so I, as my own reach and my own audience has grown, I'm now really going into ways where can I meet my same client at different levels who maybe aren't ready for the higher level retainers or the higher level funnel projects because those are bigger investments. And so yeah, that should be coming. That's all in the works right now. And I'm just really excited to get to kind of play because I think for anybody, once you really become and you get your brand and your message down and you're known for something, the offers are just different vehicles. You can kind of play and drop whatever you want. Like, I put up my stories last night on the drive out here. Hey, if you want an Instagram bio, you know, I'm gonna give— I'm gonna do 5. This is the price point. Reply this. I couldn't have done that if I hadn't established authority in that. Yeah, right. And those 5 went, right? And so I'm gonna be playing with a lot of different lower ticket offers.

I love that.

Well, you have so much value to offer. Thank you. And you are offering a big, uh, discount to our listeners. So it's $250 off of what we have built out.

As I told you, yep, we went and studied AI brand voice builds. Okay. So what we are doing with, uh, those who choose into this offer is we are going to work with you to ask you the questions on your core values, on the problem you solve, on the, um, what is your person doing if you're watching them on Netflix? Taking all of those components, doing competitor analysis, market research, and running it all through to build your brand voice in Claude. And then you get the skill. So now you actually have an authentic and strategic, because there's gotta be strategy in it too, brand voice that you can actually use Claude and not sound like everybody else.

No, I love that. I do. You and I have nerded out so hard on a, on a few that we just love, and I'm excited you're building yours because You're just gonna put all of that expertise in there. So this is at buildmybrandvoice.com. You can use code Lori Harder for $250 off. And you guys, we are putting that all in the show notes. So all you have to do is scroll down and click it for $250 off. And I'm so grateful for you.

Thank you so much. Yes.

Did you wanna share anything else?

No, I am just, I am so grateful to be here. It's so fun. And I just wanna encourage, no matter what season you are at in your business,, we've both had, you know, peaks and valleys. For sure. And anybody listening, just always look, make decisions with data and serve with your emotion. Because sometimes we make decisions in the emotion of the frustration or the shame or the comparison, and you probably don't have to burn it down. And there's probably nothing wrong with your offer. It's probably a marketing problem or something else like this. So I just, I believe in the possibility. Mm-hmm. You know, if a teacher with 4,000 followers can do this, I believe in possibility of humans so much. And so just thanks for having me and keep going.

And you guys, you know, we love Melissa. We vouch for her. She's in our coaching program. She helps all of our clients as well. And we're just so grateful for you for that because clearly our minds work different and it's really important to surround yourself with people like her. So if it's not Melissa, find somebody else, but it should just be her. So anyway, thank you so much. And you guys, until next time, earn your happy. Bye everyone.