The “Tortoise Method”: How to Finally Change Your Life for Good with Light Watkins

Where do you think people are like, this is what they believe about transformation, and you're just watching it going, oh gosh.

The flaw oftentimes is in the vision itself. I'm with this partner and they don't stimulate me anymore. I'm in this apartment and it doesn't stimulate me anymore. The flaw is people think I need to blow up my life instead of having to leave your situation to go find the change. What if you were to introduce change where you are?

Light, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Lori. It's good to be here.

I know. It's so fun to have you in person. I got to be on your podcast.

Yes.

But it was virtual.

It was virtual.

Which is also great.

Where were you when I— when we did that?

I have no idea.

Was it like in a coworking space or something like that?

Oh, probably. Yeah. That's when we had our house down there and I did not have— studio yet.

Yeah.

And I thought the best option was a coworking space, but really it wasn't. It seems like a great idea. You're like, get out of the house.

It's different from what I'm seeing right here.

Yes, exactly. It would probably have some random people walking by getting some coffee.

I don't know.

No, this is, this is much better. I'm loving it. You know, you do a podcast, so it's kind of like figuring out your spaces. Yeah.

But, you know, doing in person is a whole other thing, right?

So totally.

I haven't had that experience yet. I've done a few of those in Mexico City, but Mexico City is not exactly on the podcast circuit. Circuits.

No, I know this. I'm— we're in Newport Beach right now as we're recording, and I wasn't sure if I would be able to get people to come down here from LA, but it's been working out pretty well so far.

It's not that bad. It was like an hour.

It depends when they're coming. I will say, like, you were right on time. Most people—

I got here a little early.

They factor it a little late, so we, we build a buffer in because I'm like, 30— you're 30 minutes late, but I knew you were going to be because you're coming from LA. So, yeah, but I'm grateful that you're here.

Yeah, thank you.

And there's— I mean, there is so much to talk with you about, 'cause you've lived such an interesting life.

Thank you.

You've written 5 books.

Mm-hmm.

You were an absolute nomad whose home was their backpack.

Yep.

That which we just talked about.

I was homeless for 5 years, yeah.

Oh my gosh. And I asked him, I'm like, "Well, you must love traveling." And he was like, "No." Could we actually start there? And I just wanna, can I understand what spurred that?

Yeah, so in 2016, was in a relationship that, you know, we split up and, and I was— gosh, I was your age at that time.

Wait, you're older than me?

Yeah.

Stop it.

That's why I didn't say anything. Like, oh, you look great.

How old are you?

I'm 52.

Shut—

I was 45. I was 45 years old.

I still have time to live in a backpack. I don't want to.

Exactly. And so, so interesting. That's what I thought. I was like, oh my God, I'm getting older.

Yeah.

I'm not in a relationship. I don't have kids. I don't have a dog.

Okay.

You know, I've got this nice place. It was a 10-minute walk from Venice Beach.

Yep.

And, uh, couple cars and, you know, Vespa and all this like art I'd collected. Mm-hmm. All the things. And I was like, this is the last time I'll probably have to do something like sell everything and just live from a backpack.

Yeah.

And so I did it. I did it. And I'd also been traveling for about 2 weeks out of every month. I was traveling all around the world doing these workshops and retreats and meditation and mindfulness. So I kind of had a little carry-on bag situation already that I already knew what I normally would take. And, and I was like, you know what, it would be really interesting to do this without any storage or anything, just complete reset. Yeah, why not, right? And I did it. And so on May 31st, 2018, which was, you know, took me a little bit to get there, but I rolled out of my apartment in my new carry-on bag apartment.

Yeah.

And, uh, and I had no idea how long it was gonna last, but it ended up lasting about— it ended up lasting honestly till the pandemic. So when the pandemic happened, the music stopped playing. I didn't have a chair to go back to. So I just— that's how I ended up in Mexico City because I had been to Mexico City, uh, a couple of times during that nomadic adventure. It was one of my little stops that I, I like to go and write and hang out and go to cafes. And it just left an impression on me. So I went there and I got an Airbnb, which is my move. And, you know, we didn't know how long the pandemic was gonna last.

Couple weeks.

So I was like, yeah, couple weeks, couple months.

Yeah.

Cut to a couple years later, I'm actually still in the same Airbnb.

Oh my.

That I was in. Now we're off the platform, obviously. But I ended up just staying there and it's furnished and, you know, so I'm technically still a minimalist, but if you were to walk into my place, you wouldn't necessarily think to yourself, oh, a minimalist lives here.

Yeah, because it's furnished. It's someone. I mean, it was just kind of like your stuff.

It's their stuff.

Yeah, exactly.

I may have gotten a couple of little things for it, some plants and stuff, but for the most part, it's, it's, it's not mine.

Which is such a pun intended light way to live. Like, it is weird. You've heard the theory that people live into their name in some way.

100%.

Yeah.

People look like their dogs. People live up to their name. In fact, you know, so Light is obviously not my birth name. I'm from Alabama, born in the 1970s. Nobody born in the '70s in Alabama was born with a name.

Okay. You never know. Some people did, right?

But what I've come to research and learn later is that Western cultures are really the only culture of people who keep the same name they were born with throughout the duration of their life.

Okay.

When you go to other cultures, especially indigenous cultures, people take on new names with life experience, with new jobs, with, with different phases of their life. So it's actually more common than not.

That's actually that. In all honesty, I would literally— I feel like for different phases of your life to have somebody call you something, obviously we know so much about speaking things into existence, to actually have people say that to you over and over and over, you're like, yeah, that's who I am. Like, to actually be called who you are. So interesting. I'm Native American. I know you can't can't tell. I just dye everything light. Um, but are you really? Yeah. So my grandpa's full Native American.

Oh wow.

Um, so hold a little tribal card. So if you ever want to teach me fishing in Canada, we can bring all the fish back that we want.

Wow.

Yeah, pretty good. That's my one cool thing.

He's Canadian Native American, uh, from Sault Ste.

Marie.

Okay, cool.

So, um, Ojibwe, Chippewa, it's the same. It's actually like same thing. So Yeah, but interesting. Most people don't know that. But yeah, but yeah, I grew up like doing some completely different things. But with that said, that's very— it's just, that's just different all over, you know? So, okay, I love that. Okay.

What I want to know about the bag, though, is what was in the bag.

As a woman, it's like, show me what's in your bag.

Yeah.

What got into the bag that was like your little, like, a treasure that you were just like, okay, look, I don't care if this is heavier. I don't care what— how did you start getting little treasures that you were like, dang it? And what was some stuff you had to part with that you found yourself wanting on the trip?

You know what's interesting is, okay, so I'll tell you the whole progression. I started with the 22-inch carry-on bag because I did some research and I worked out that 22 inches was the largest carry-on bag that you can take on a— you can put in the overhead compartment. And I didn't want to ever have to check bags.

I think I've worked that out as well, but for different reasons.

Okay. And then I, I, I realized, oddly enough, I realized that I had too much stuff. So I had maybe 2 pairs of shoes and like 4 pairs of pants and, you know, 8 shirts. And because I wanted to try to get through the whole week without having to wash my clothes, not needing a washing machine. Okay. Realized I had too much stuff. I'm not wearing half of this stuff and I'm having to carry everything. So when you have to carry everything—

Very different.

You're like, okay, I really don't need these 2 pairs of pants. I can do it all in 1 pair of pants. So I scaled down to a 40-milliliter— I'm sorry, 40-liter backpack. And now I'm literally carrying on my shoulders everything. And I'm like, okay, this is way too much stuff. And then the game changer was I went on YouTube one day, whenever I want to learn something, I go on YouTube. Like, how do you hand wash your clothes? And I learned all the best practices for hand washing. And I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. And so now I was able to cut that down in half. And now I, and I graduated to just a little like schoolchildren's backpack, where I would have like 2 pairs of underwear and 3 t-shirts and 1 pair of pants. And, and here's the thing, here's what I learned. No matter how big the bag is, you're always going to pack it and you're going to think you need, you know, as many things in there as possible. And it was a really beautiful insight around limitation and restriction. Right? If you reduce the size of the container, then the things that you think you are going to need is going to naturally shrink. If you increase the size of the container, you're going to think you need more stuff.

Yep.

Because that's just how we're wired, you know. So it was interesting to see how little— and that became a fun challenge— how little can I get away with? And if I want to have something else, I can have it. I just have to replace something that I had. So then it it causes you to edit your life to only have things that you absolutely love. And to answer your first question, the thing that took up the most space, oddly enough, this probably took up 25% of the real estate in my bag. My meditation teaching puja kit, which is a ceremony that I perform when I would initiate people into becoming a meditator. And this is something I, you know, went to India for a long time and learned how to do this. And you're singing this song in Sanskrit and it's really beautiful ceremony, but that's That's the one thing I can't buy anywhere.

Mm-hmm. You have to have that with you.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, then. Well, that'll get you down to one pair of pants, right? By the way, I was just saying I got dressed for this podcast and I'm like, this is the same outfit I've worn for the last 4 podcasts.

So you obviously love it, right?

I just— it's— I don't have to think about it. Yeah, exactly.

It's your capsule wardrobe.

I could just— yeah, it's great. And I'm looking at your outfit. I'm like, you could literally wear that every day. Every day.

And I honestly do.

And it looks great.

That's what people don't realize. That's what that experience did. It caused me to have to figure out what's my capsule wardrobe.

Yeah.

What do I want to wear all the time?

And people don't even notice. No, they're like, too busy. Nobody cares.

Nobody cares. So when I was in high school, I ran this experiment. I just woke up one day and I thought, is anybody even paying attention to what I'm wearing? Like, I'm spending all this time laying out my clothes the night before and thinking about curating my outfits. And no one's ever like— no, like you said about your age, no one's even asking me anything about my clothes. So I did this experiment from Monday to Friday. I decided to wear the same thing just to see if anybody was gonna say anything. And it was, I still remember it, it was, I went to high school in the '90s. So it was a pair of like beige parachute pants.

Sweet.

And a purple mock turtleneck. And I came home every day and I washed it and I put it back on the next morning and not one person said anything. Now, maybe they were thinking something, who knows? But they didn't say anything. But that experiment was very liberating for me because after that I was like, huh, I could just wear the same thing all the time. Nobody cares.

You didn't go with black either. You went with purple.

I know.

Like a really obvious color.

Right. Right.

You might have even just made it your brand. Like, people were just like, I don't know, that's cool. You can get away with it.

Exactly.

It is what it is. You know what you were saying about the container that, you know, shrinks or expands? We talk a lot about that because there's like a theory with time too, where I'll look at my calendar and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna create content and I've got 6 hours in this day and I still get the same amount of content done that I would've gotten if I had like a 2-hour or 90-minute container.

It's the same, make decisions faster.

Yeah, it's so true. So even though we love all of that space, even in creativity, it's like you don't necessarily need it. And I really do think you can just like get it down. 'Cause we can feel, I feel like in life we can feel so over, like we can feel so overwhelmed if we don't have the time to do what we want. But I don't necessarily think we need all the time to do what we actually want to get started. So this is actually such a great segue into, um, transformation, which you are— you know, your latest book is on transforming.

Yeah.

And so first of all, tell me, you blew my mind when you told me how long it took you to write this book, which we'll get to in a second. But first, tell me why the topic of transformation right now at your life at 52, which I think you're lying, you, you don't look a day over I don't know, 40.

Everybody thinks I'm their age. That's what's funny. If I was with someone who was in their early 30s, they go, you're like 30, what, 34, 35?

Maybe your energy's matching. Maybe. Maybe you can chameleon energy.

Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, that's it.

Yeah. I'm at the point now I just agree with them. I say, yeah, I am. We're the same age in spirit.

Yes. Okay. So for you, what was it about transformation at this point in your life that you're like, this is what I want to come out. This is what I'm feeling for this year for people.

Having gone through all of the experiences that I've gone through in doing especially the nomadic adventure, and then I've been in the wellness space helping people with their inner work. So their stillness practice, their meditation, their mindfulness, their gratitude and all of that. You see that, you know, we have, we grapple with a relationship with comfort. Like, oh yeah, what we consider to be successful really is striving towards being more comfortable, being in a house like this, having a really amazing car, having freedom in your schedule, right? But when it comes to the change that we also seek, comfort is not the best way to approach change. So there's this weird dichotomy where the thing that we say we want, we're actually getting in our own way from achieving it. And like you said, if you have too much time to think about it, then you end up just creating all these stories and going back and forth and you get paralysis analysis and you can't make up your mind. And then you look up, 3 months have passed, nothing's changed.

Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh, I resonate with that so much. You know, I was telling you, because we were talking about how you were nomadic for a while and you asked if I like traveling and I really don't love it, but I used to travel all of the time for multiple years, and I was so uncomfortable all of the time. Like, to tell you that, I, I'm actually not sure. Unfortunately, this was also my perspective in my mind, but I can't look back and be like, wow, I really enjoyed that decade of my life. Like it was— I, I didn't feel a lot of joy because I was so uncomfortable all the time. Then what that constant discomfort did is it brought me a very comfortable life. And what I found in that very comfortable life, within the 2 to 3 years after, like, I really just experienced a lot of abundance, I started to get really deeply depressed.

Exactly.

Like, deeply depressed. And I was like, why is, like, all of this so comfortable? And I have all the things I've ever wanted, and now I'm so deeply uncomfortable.

And there's probably shame around that too, because you're like, everyone's looking at me like I should be.

And you can't tell anyone.

No.

Because no one feels bad for you. And so you need to go and seek discomfort again. But we're gonna get into that. So yeah, the book you have, The Year You Transform, where do you think people are like, this is what they believe about transformation, and you're just watching it going, oh gosh, like they need this book?

So especially this time of year, obviously everyone has these ideas and this vision for themselves, what they want to do, and the flaw oftentimes is in the vision itself, right? So they're envisioning, because we're all on social media, we're all like seeing what everybody else is doing and how people are presenting themselves. And I think the flaw is they, people think I need to blow up my life. I'm with this partner and they don't stimulate me anymore. I'm in this apartment and it doesn't stimulate me anymore. And looking at Lori and her amazing house, and I'm once, I'm, I need to, that's what I need. I need a lifestyle like that. Or I'm looking at Light and he's traveling around. I need to be traveling around, living from a backpack and da da da da. And my whole thing with transformation is you can actually— well, basically there are three, three paths of transformation. There's the blow up your life path where you just completely, you know, leap out of whatever you got going on now, the status quo, and you think the answer is going to Bali or going to India or quitting your job and taking on a new job. And I'm not saying that those things can't have a positive impact. But that's called the, the blow up your life path. Yeah, we have the crisis path, which is, I'm going to ignore, I'm going to ignore all of the things that are happening, I'm going to ignore the fact that I'm not sleeping at night, I'm going to ignore the fact that I'm feeling tense most of the day, and I have anxiety, and I'm crying going to work. And, you know, and those are all symptoms that whatever you've been doing is no longer relevant for you.

Yep.

Maybe at one time, totally, it was relevant. But if things haven't been changing, and you've been feeling worse and worse and smaller and smaller and more and more contracted, that's a very obvious sign spiritually, at least, yeah, that, that whatever you've been doing, however you're approaching your life is not sustainable. And then there's this third approach to change, which is what I write about in The Year You Transform. Which is the tortoise approach to change. And so the tortoise approach kind of combines the blow up your life, eat, pray, love approach and the crisis, which is you recognize that, okay, I'm feeling very unsettled in my body. And instead of having to leave your situation to go find the change, what if you were to introduce change where you are, right, in little ways, little— I call them hops of faith. So instead of, you know, taking the leap of faith and leaving everything behind, just take a little hop of faith in the direction of choosing discomfort. So for instance, there are— I present the reader with 10 different 7-day challenges, I could just call them mini 7-day challenges. Right. Why? Why 7 days? Because when you think about, okay, starting to meditate or stop drinking alcohol or, you know, working out or any kind of habit that you've been wanting to do, the fact that it's just this indefinite thing that you may have to do forever, it's just very intimidating.

Oh my God.

I can't.

Yeah.

And if you miss 1 or 2 and it's like, oh, I knew it. I knew I wasn't going to be able to do this. And then you end up talking yourself out of it. But we can all just do 7 days of something, and it doesn't have to be 7 days in a row. And what's beautiful about 7 days is that it exposes your habit to pretty much anything that can happen during a week. So weekends, more unstructured weekdays, obviously you have to work and everything like that. So if you can find little creative ways to fit in those habits in those 7 days and just focus on the little baby steps, something you can do on your average busy day then it makes it a lot more sustainable. Probably it leaves you wanting more. And there's a— I call it a spiritual pump that you get when you, when you get to the other side of that action step. You know, just like when you go to the gym and you have a good lift, it leaves you feeling pumped. Schwarzenegger talks about, you know, the pump in his— in that old documentary, Pumping Iron. But there's a spiritual version of that, which is you choose some sort of mini little discomfort. So one of the classic ones in the book is taking a cold shower. I don't know how— have you ever been into cold water?

Cold plunging? Yeah, it's pretty terrible in my opinion.

Yeah, yeah. I hate cold everything. I hate cold water, showers, attitudes, everything.

So now I'm like, no, I lived that.

But, but, but yes, to get into the shower and turn on that cold water and stand there for 30 seconds and scream and curse and do all the things, you'll hate it. The whole time. But at the end of it, I guarantee you, you have a big smile on your face.

Yeah. I mean, what does that do chemically to it? Just like changes where you're at.

100%. I mean, it's a change from the inside out. So you get the dopamine, you get the serotonin, probably got a little cortisol as well. But it's a really powerful way to just start the day by overcoming that tendency to not get uncomfortable. And if you can do it in these small ways, then it starts to slowly change your life and start and change the way you start your day. And that can reorient you out of autopilot, which is what a lot of people are in, towards becoming more present. And that's really the overall goal of this particular approach is to try to bring more presence into your everyday moment-to-moment interactions. That's what everybody is seeking with change. They think they want change, but what they really want is presence. When you go to Thailand, and you get off the plane, and you're walking around and everything is unfamiliar, you're present. That's the feeling. That's the outcome you want in your body.

Yeah, you're in the moment.

When you do something new, you're present to it. When you do something you've done a million times, you're on autopilot. So let's see if we can bring presence to those moments. And you may discover things about you or your neighborhood or your life that you didn't realize before. And maybe there are some opportunities to do some things differently.

Oh my gosh, it's so interesting. It's like all of the things that I know, but you're putting words into it because I can't remember the quote. Maybe you'll remember it for me, but it's like when you're living in the past, you're depressed. When you're living in the future, you're anxious. And when you're present, you're just present and in gratitude. And so I was just thinking of all the things that I'm doing right now because I'm like, no, I, I want to feel present. I want to— I'm thinking of the future right now. Like I am. Living in the future. So you can imagine what my body has been living in, like pure cortisol. So I'm like, what are the things that make me feel really present? And it's like I told you, I was taking pickleball lessons. I want to go take ballroom. I get out and I have a really deep, like, practice in, like, walking and prayer. But sometimes those are tough if I'm not moving. Like, if I'm— I just need to be moving a lot right now.

Yeah.

But it's to your point to feel present in my life instead of living 6 months from now, a year from now, you know, what am I going to do with this company and that company and how is this going to work with the future, with AI and where should I shift and pivot and all the things? And I don't get my answers when I'm in the future. I don't get them there.

Right.

All I get is more shit.

Right, right.

Shitstorm of anxiety because it's all speculation. Yeah.

So there's not a lot of present moment awareness in speculation. Yeah, but that's what we're trained to do. We're trained to speculate. That's what Again, the path to success is really a path of speculation. Try to figure out what's going to happen next. Be the first one to get there. Hope that, you know, you have a competitive advantage and have a moat around whatever it is, you know. The damn moat. It's all this noise.

If I hear that one more time from you, I'm like in a race right now. They're like, what's your moat? I'm like, dragons.

Right. But then when you get there, if you haven't been— and this is, this is the thing that people don't realize when you get to success, right? Because I want everybody to be successful. I want to be successful. When you get there, if you haven't been cultivating presence, that's where you start to get what you described, which is there's shame, there's some depression around that, there's confusion because everybody sold you on the idea that being there in success is supposed to come with, right, the fulfillment.

Yeah. We talk a lot about like an expectation hangover of a lot of the things that people think that they are wanting. I love that. Like having people realize that you have to cultivate this presence along the way.

It's like bench pressing and thinking that that's going to make your quads bigger.

It's not.

It's not. You got to go to the squat rack.

I've been doing the wrong thing.

You got to get on the squat rack if you want your quads. So there's a whole separate protocol for presence and fulfillment. And you have to cultivate that in your life right now if you want to have it when you are, quote, successful. I would argue you're not actually successful if you don't have it.

I totally agree with that.

You have money, but money's not going to buy you fulfillment or presence.

No. What do you think for fulfillment-wise? Do you think people are a big part of that? Like the relationships in your life?

100%. Yeah. But what is a relationship? A relationship is— and this is why I just went to a funeral. I've been to 3 funerals in the last 2 months.

Wow.

I love funerals. So much.

So interesting. Do tell why. I mean, I do. I have been to some good ones where I'm like, wow, that's the most enriching experience I've had in a long time.

It just reminds you what's truly important. When you talk about relationships, and I talk about this in the book, where you get people to think about what you want others to say about you at your funeral.

She was funny.

She was funny. She was caring. She was nurturing. No one ever gets up and says, you know, she was so successful.

No.

And that just made my life so much better. You know, just how much she paid her bills all the time.

I just loved all those success posts.

Yeah. All those inspirational success posts.

Made me feel so bad about myself.

All people talk about is how you were generous with them, with your time, your attention, how you showed up for them when they really needed you, how you were a good mother. You know, these kinds of, of, of more intangible things that we think don't really matter that much. But I would argue that's all that actually matters. And what does it all have in common? You were present with somebody. So, so yeah, going to those funerals just reminds you of the power of presence. And again, we— it's this weird— I don't know if you read that book The Alchemist, where they talk about what's the secret of happiness, and the king sends the boy around his castle to look at all the wonderful things, but he gives him a spoon of oil and tells him, whatever you do, don't spill the spoon. And he comes back, but he still has the oil in the spoon, but he didn't see anything because he was so fixated on trying not to spill the oil. And he sends him back and says, you have to look at everything. And he comes back and he spilled the oil, but he saw everything. So I think that's also a really beautiful metaphor for presence, is you have to make money on planet Earth, but you also have to stop and indulge yourself in the small moments.

Mm-hmm.

Because even when you're building, right, like you, like you're, you're, again, you're materially successful right now. And you talked about this period of time when you were traveling a lot. I'm sure when you think about the most impactful moments of your life, it's not really being in this house. Mm-hmm. It's the building. It's the small moments with you and Chris, you know, Having to figure things out and using creativity and making a way out of no way. And, you know, and maturing and on your, in your, in your perspective of how things work and, and what you should align yourself with and things like that. Like those, we all think about the good old days as those moments when maybe we didn't have as much because we were more present.

The building, we always say, oh my God, the building was so fun. It's like, we're, we're actually getting back to that again. And I'm like, oh my God, I feel so excited. Excited.

Yeah, again, exciting.

So exciting. Yeah, you know, I want to talk about— because you're, um, and not to keep bringing your age up, but I love it. But because I really, at like 44, 45, but this really this year too, like, I feel like there's a bit of— so many people I know, and myself being the first one— but there's like a bit of an expectation hangover about how maybe you thought you'd feel, or what you're like facing this like second half of your life. and you're like, what do I do? Is this where it goes down or does it go up? You know what I mean? It's like these very clear choices of, I know I have a choice to almost like reinvent or create something new or build again. But like, I am a builder and a creator, and I just was facing this period in my life of like, it just feels like the back half, not in a bad way, just like, especially for women, there's a lot of talk around women about like, Oh, you're in your 40s, like you might as well be dead, you know? And I know that's depressing to say, but for a lot of women, they're like, no, you prepare to be invisible. Like you're just now you're going to have like menopause. Like if you, you know, especially we don't have kids and we tried to have kids and it's like, well, now what's the fulfillment? Where's the fulfillment going to come from? Trust me, I don't think it's going to come from kids. Like, I love that for people. I love it. But it's just there's a lot of deep soul searching that I think can happen right around this age. What do you think for like transforming, or what advice would you go back to your 45-year-old self and say? Do you think— we talked about blowing things up, but you also are really like the theory of the small, the tortoise, doing things small. If someone is feeling this way in their life in their early 40s, mid-40s, whatever, what would you even tell them right now? 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Look, it's, uh, it's the same thing as accumulating wealth. You have to invest in it. You have to, um, and, and you can take advantage of a compound effect. And I— one of the I'll tell you the most impactful thing that I ever did looking back, and it wasn't meditation and all of that stuff, which I'm known for, but it's stop drinking alcohol. I stopped drinking alcohol when I was like 25 or 26 years old. And I've seen how the trajectory has gone between myself and my friends who are still drinking, wonderful people, you know, funny, great to be around, but it doesn't play out the same way. And somebody was saying the other day I have good genetics, talking about me, and I put in a lot of work, you know? It's like somebody saying you're lucky for being wealthy. It's like, actually, no, I spent a lot of time and effort building and compounding. And so a lot of it is not by accident. Maybe between, you know, up until you're 35 is genetics. After 35, maybe 35 to 40, it's a little bit like you know, lucky. But after, after 40, no, that's all habit. That's all habit.

Definitely is.

So you have to, you have to become more intentional. And this is, you know, there are a few different challenges in the book that help people with this, but you have to become more intentional about, I would say the most important one after, after alcohol And I'm not like anti-alcohol. I'm pro-awareness.

Yeah.

So you want to have— you want to preserve as much of your awareness as you can.

Yeah. It can take presence away in your life for sure.

Right. Think about awareness kind of like your eyesight. So if you have a— if some people wear glasses, so their eyesight has kind of, you know, distorted over time or whatever. But if you had the power to expand your eyesight and not have to use glasses, wouldn't you do whatever you had to do to fix your eyesight. And the great thing about awareness is that you can actually expand it anytime. But you have to do it through sitting down and closing your eyes and, and, and engaging in your inner work on a regular basis. And you only really need 10 minutes a day. Now people are gonna say, well, I'm too busy. I'm too busy. Swipe, pull out your smartphone, swipe to the right and look at your screen time and then tell me how busy— let's have a conversation about how busy you are. That's one thing, 7 hours of TikTok and 4 hours of Instagram.

Like, I know that about myself so much that if I ever say I don't have time, I'm like, right.

And look, so part of becoming more aware is becoming more honest with yourself around the fact that you've been bullshitting yourself and telling yourself, oh, I don't have time, when really that's, that's not a true story. You want to replace that story with it just, it's not a priority. That's progress. People don't see that as progress. They think think lying to themselves is progress, but I would argue telling yourself it's not a priority is actually the next step in expanding your awareness. Because after a certain amount of time of you saying that to yourself, in addition to you taking full responsibility for your experience, it's going to allow you to start to see things that you were ignoring before. And all you really need to do is act in a few different areas of your life more intentionally. Maybe it was with your health, maybe it's with drinking, maybe it's with having that hard conversation that you don't want to have. There's a challenge in the book called Scary Yes. So you have to do 7 things that scare you, including things like having a hard conversation or, you know, paying your taxes or anything you've been avoiding, because that's usually where it resides for sure. You know, I have a friend who told me the other— who asked me the other day, he was— he's got some business stuff going on and he's a bit kind of out of shape. And I told him— he was asking how how I— what my suggestions were for fixing his business. And I said, you know what, I think, I think you should get in shape. He goes, what does that have to do with fixing my business? I said, because you haven't been showing up for yourself. You haven't been telling yourself very empowering stories. I can clearly see it in the way you presenting yourself. And if you got in shape, it forces you to be more honest. It forces you to show up. It forces you to follow through. And the way you do anything is the way you do everything. So you start it with your exercise and it'll ripple into your business and into your relationship and everything else that may be breaking down around you. Mm-hmm.

Oh my God. Having, having started my career in fitness, it has taught me so much.

Sure.

There's so many parallels like that where we were sharing a little bit of our pickleball lessons and you were like, what was one of the big life lessons? And it's how you speak to yourself after you fail. And that was one of the things I noticed in the gym right away is They're like, what's the, what's the voice that's coaching you? Like, why are you going to the gym? Is it a, you're a fat ass, you're a loser? Why don't you look like her? Why have you been fat your whole life? Because you're going to get— you will get fit for a little bit, but that will not be sustainable. It will not. Like, you cannot sustain that past a certain amount of years, right? It just then it turns into pummeling. And when you start screwing up, you just keep pummeling and pummeling and the weight piles on. You get depressed and now that voice is so big that you just beat yourself down. You like bench yourself before the game starts. So with, you know, observing that voice with fitness, it's such a, it's such a, um, great quick way to have awareness. Like, you want to know, when I take some of my friends who like, they'll be even really amazing like entrepreneurs, but they're really struggling in something, I'll be like, take them to a spin class. I learn more about them in a spin class than anything else, because they're like, I hated being in the dark room. I felt trapped. I didn't like having them, you know, tell me what to do. I felt like I had to be the best at it. So I killed myself. Like, I hated every moment of it. And I was like, trust me, I did the same thing. But I learned in those rooms, like, you have to go, you have to be easy on yourself. You have to let it be okay if you can't complete the class. You have to start small and whatever that looks like while everyone around you is going hard and is better than you. And it's like such a full, fast awareness game of how can you make this like your own and still keep showing up for yourself and love yourself through the whole process. It is the craziest, fastest way I've— for me, for me, because I'm so bodily, like, I love, I love transforming through movement.

Yeah.

And so that's been a really huge lesson for me.

I have to— I've had the same experience in escape rooms, like seeing how people are in escape rooms. Who's giving up? Who's not willing to step up and be a leader? Who's taking over the whole thing and not letting other people contribute? It shows you a lot.

We used to do that with our team. It was very fun. Like, you are observing yourself in an escape room for sure.

Are you still working out? What's your workout regimen?

Yeah, I do 5 days a week. So Monday, Wednesday, Friday is lifting.

Like compound lifts and all that. You're on the squat rack and everything?

Yep. Squat rack, all the things. Yep.

That's how you look so young.

So there you go. You just— you got that? We recorded it. Got it. And then we do Lagree, like Lagree Pilates. And then I walk every day as well.

Are you tracking your macros still?

Never.

Never?

No, I have.

But you've done that before?

Years ago.

Right.

So you kind of— now, 2011.

But you have kind of a sense for—

I have a full— okay. Yes.

So I do think it is like you're aware of what you're putting in your body. I'm actually not eating a lot of of like fatty things.

I'm actually pretty fully aware, like I can. But there's a lot of— now when you become fully aware, you can loosen your grip. Yeah, because I just know my boundaries, and I also know the comeback rate of if I go off the rails. Like, I know how long— you just learn everything. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot easier to be easy on yourself when you have awareness.

Yeah, because now I know, you know. And but to get that awareness, it takes a lot of intentionality. It was so Yeah, you have to like track everything. And I'm actually going through that process now where I'm measuring every single thing I put in my mouth.

Did that.

And it's been the most— I've never had more fun in the kitchen.

Oh, that's good. Yeah, you're enjoying it.

I'm loving it. Yeah, because it's, it's enlightening me. And thinking that, you know, I used to think I was so healthy and eating all the right things. And turns out I was just making calorie bombs out of salads. And then wondering, Why? Why am I not having a six-pack like everybody else? And I'm working out 6 days a week and I'm walking 12,000 steps a day and I'm eating all this good food, but yet I've got this belly fat. What is that about?

Yeah.

And so I started experimenting with, you know, with macro tracking and it's just been amazing.

It's the craziest thing not to totally talk about food, but a lot of like in especially the, you know, when you get into people who are vegan, it's like the amount of calories you can consume.

I was vegan for a long time.

Okay, this is a good— Okay, so I would have vegan friends and they're like, I thought I was going to lose weight. I'm like, well, your flour's made of almonds. You're only eating nuts and dates and olive oil. Yeah, your breakfast was 1,700 calories, right?

And I'm like, but it was gluten-free, but it was gluten-free and vegan, dairy-free.

So exactly. Yeah, it's really interesting now. It's, you know, the world of TikTok and social is pretty cool when it comes to people just giving you all these hacks, like these, like very dense foods but are like calorie light. And yeah, I mean, it's so much, so much awareness has brought. So I look at all these young people, I'm like, why are you all jacked now? Like, it was so hard to be fit. Yeah, I was living in the Midwest. It was so challenging. No one around me was fit. And now I feel like everyone's being fit, which is amazing. Yeah, it's because information and awareness around all of that.

Yeah, is so good.

So, well, I love that journey for you.

Yeah, thank you.

You're going to be able to not think about it too much in the future, which will also be fun.

Yeah, it's not that much you have to change. It's just like a couple little things.

Yeah. So let's talk about— let's actually talk about that, because that's one of the biggest habits that's most challenging for people, because it is not— it's not just only going against a habit that you've created. It's, it's a habit that's actually a life force habit. Like, you have to eat. So to just avoid it, or to be like, I'm gonna stop watching Netflix, like, that's probably a little bit easier than controlling your food, because food is such a It's number one, it's you have to have it. Number two, it's such a deep core association to your happiness, your whole life and joy.

Yeah.

What would you say for people with food? What are some of the things that you talk about in your book that you've been using around changing that health journey for you? Have you found that challenging at all?

Yeah. So I give a lot of mindsets in the book, and one of the mindsets that I think applies to this, this conversation or this part of the conversation is You have to be more aware of the stories that you tell yourself on a moment-to-moment basis, particularly before you make choices that could potentially take you either in the direction of your goal or away from your goal. And so I call them strong stories versus weak stories, meaning you tell strong stories, it allows you to act in a strong way. You tell yourself weak stories, it makes you weaker. So for example, And we've all done this. You're on some sort of restrictive diet, right? You don't want to eat as much sugar, or you don't want to eat as much fat, or you don't eat as much whatever, processed foods. But then you tell yourself, you know, I've been to the gym every day for the last 3 days. If I just have this one little cookie, it's not going to kill me, is it? That's the story you tell yourself. The answer to the story It's no, it's not going to kill you. So then fine, I've just justified having the cookie. That's a weak story because it justifies weak behavior, right? If you want to have stronger behavior, which we all do, you just need to change the story. Instead of is it going to kill you, ask yourself, if I have this one little cookie, is it going to lead me in the direction of the goal that I said I wanted to go in? No one imposed this goal on me. This is my goal for myself. This is my word to myself. It's the same answer. No. But it inspires a different behavior.

It feels like you're going against what you want. And you're like, why would I do that to myself? Right. Just the way you frame it.

Yeah. So you just have to make it. And that in and of itself is a habit. You know, we want to get into the habit of catching ourselves, telling ourselves, weak stories. And maybe you can't catch it and change it every single time. But if you even change it 6 out of 10 times, then you're starting to build some momentum in the opposite direction. Because here's the reality, Lori. We're all adults. Nobody gives a shit what you eat.

Yep.

And they really don't care what your goal is. You may think your friends all care what your goal is, but at the end of the day, they're all hunkered down trying to grapple with their own stuff. To be paying attention to what you're doing or not doing. So, but yet we all kind of have the, this sort of childlike approach to change, which is where we want it instantly. We don't want to have to work for it. We want to be comfortable. We want to do what we want to do, etc. And so we all have to take agency over ourselves. And that's one of the things I think that makes you feel so good when you do change whatever area of your life. You, you become financially stable. You get your health in order, you fix your relationship, is that it was hard. And you just took it step by step. And so the process is more valuable than the outcome.

Oh my goodness. Just, you made me think of, you know, because I told you my husband and I have been together like 25 years, married 20. I'm thinking of all of the changes we've had to make in our relationships have been hard.

What's what? Give me an example.

How we talk to each other.

Okay.

It really got amplified when we started working together. And because we didn't always work together, like he had a corporate job and I like worked random shitty jobs. And then when I started entrepreneurship and we were able to like take him home and put him in the business, I was so excited about that. Isn't that like what's the online dream? Like for a while it was like retire your husband. I was like, yeah. And then I was like, I I hate you. Like, and I know that's a strong word, but like, really, I was like, oh, I don't think we're a match anymore. And this was years later. Like, and the only thing that changed was he came home to work with me. Now, his working style was very different. He worked in like, you know, mortgage and finance with a bunch of guys, never worked with women. And it was all just hard driving numbers, hit this, hit that. And that's who he was. He was that type of motivator. And that was great for him in that. You know, essence and era of life. But to come home into like a spiritual business where I'm like filling an event of 300 women and the numbers aren't hitting there yet. And he's like, I'm thinking I can meditate my way there. And of course I'm posting and doing the work, but he's like freaking out on me, right? You need to do this and that. Why aren't you doing this? And I'm like, oh my gosh, like we were just— it was awful. We just were fighting all the time. We were stressed out. And we both went to a Landmark Forum, actually, because I had a— I had like a lot of anxiety as well. Um, used to deal with a lot of panic attacks, anxiety, just so much head stuff that I think that was the first time we got to put language to it.

Oh wow.

And we realized this is not just us, this is everyone. So we got to see a couple other stories of people who were dealing with the same thing. And I'm like, well, we had a great marriage for a lot of years and we like love each other in this other area, but we just have to figure out how— like, he's speaking Greek, I'm, you know, speaking Spanish.

Yeah.

And we're trying to come together. We can't understand why we just can't get anything to click. And so there was a lot of, like, respect that had to be learned. We had to put a lot of boundaries on what we could and couldn't say, right down to words. Like, it was like, you cannot use that word.

Like, what was an example?

You know, you're— you're being such a dick right now.

That's the trigger word.

Are you acting like a bitch? Like those. We had to put off-limit words.

You would tell him that?

All the— the bitch. Yeah, he'd say bitch to me, but sometimes, yeah, like, so you'd get spicy, you know? Like, we're both spicy. We're both Sagittarius, which I don't know if that means anything to you, but we're spicy. And so we— when we're spicy together, it's too much. It's like too much fire. And so we would have to do off-limit words. We'd have to do, um, like even saying the word divorce, that became off-limits immediately. We're never allowed to say it.

You always occasionally say we should, you know, we're going to get divorced if we keep—

Yeah, like once in a great while when we were young, you know, because it's just like, oh, well, we're fighting this bad. I'm going to go to worst case scenario, throw this little dangle out there and threaten for a hot second. Like that word is never— it hasn't been available for 15 years. You know, it's like— and that, that alone, having boundaries around those things was so life-changing. But changing a habit is hard because when you are heated, you want to go back to what you know has gotten you attention or, you know, gives you that like immediate gratification.

Especially as a woman. I mean, you're wired differently than men are wired. So, yeah, you guys are emotional by nature. Like, that is what you do.

Yeah.

And that's how you filter all of the things that are happening through you. Right. So it's even more challenging to not let that drive the conversation.

That those habits were tough. Those were tough. And they took up— anybody listening, like, those took a long time because that's programming of him watching his parents and how they were, me watching my parents.

And what we want to do, we want to pull away.

Yeah.

So the hardest thing in the world is for us to like sit in it.

Oh, it's awful.

And keep, you know, and hold you and keep, keep the thing happening. And we just want to go away.

Yeah. Well, I wanted to go away too, so it wasn't working.

Right.

So anyway, that was a whole— that's I'll share that very funny story about the moments where it was like, if you leave this house, we're done. Because it was like, we can't solve anything going away all the time, you know?

He wanted to leave.

Oh, I wanted to.

You wanted to leave?

He came from a family where his mom was actually like, made them stay and talk. But if he wouldn't have stayed, we would never be together. He's the one who kept us together because I would leave.

Wow.

Yeah, I'd go drive around. It could be 2 a.m. in a foreign city and I'd go find a bush to sit in outside. I would just go high. I just go hide. I'm like, yeah, get me away from you. I can't stand you. And that was my fighting tactic, which is horrible because you never solve anything, but it was a habit. And so to break the habit, that one had to kind of quit cold turkey. It was like, you can go anywhere else in the house, but you can't leave. And that was the beginning of breaking a habit of that. So you talk a lot about the smaller, like the smaller things being big. And that was, that was actually one of the smallest things that kept us together. I can tell you it changed an entire marriage. That one simple thing. Can you tell me about a time for you that, like, just mass— that you can remember pinpointing, figuring something out small that completely shifted for you?

Yeah, this is almost embarrassingly small, but I was— this is many years ago, but I realized that I was addicted to lip balm.

Wait, no, I'm addicted to lip balm.

Wait a minute. But at this point, what's interesting is I'd given up alcohol. I'd given up, you know, I was vegan at the time, so I'd given up meat. I'd gone periods of time when I was celibate. I'd given up like cooking food sometimes when I was in a raw foods phase.

Oh, gosh.

I could get through all of those.

No problem.

I could do all of it. But then I realized, oh my God, I have 4 little containers of lip balm on me at all times because I have to constantly be applying it to my lips. And same. And then one day I misplaced all 4.

Oh, gosh.

And it completely caused me to have a breakdown. Not like a serious breakdown. Yeah, just like I was— I was like, I can't let lip balm control my life this way.

This feels so— everyone's going to resonate.

Yeah. I mean, it was crazy. It just took me— talk about yanking me out of the present moment. I couldn't think of anything else except for I need to get lip balm immediately.

Yeah. Was it just because you were so dry?

Yeah, my lips are just really dry and chapped.

And are they still? Or is lip balm an addictive habit that keeps you needing lip balm?

What happened? Well, there's a little bit of that too. I researched it and petroleum jelly actually dries your lips out. But anyway, I just decided I don't want to be a slave to the lip balm anymore. So I knew that the only way to, to get to the other side of it was really to go cold turkey. And, you know, it's interesting. It's an interesting switch. And this is what we've kind of been talking around all this time. But there are situations that get imposed upon us, right? Which could, in your case, be some disagreement with the business or something like that. You have to deal with it.

Yep.

But then it's a different energy when you actually decide, I'm going to confront this now and I'm going to take intentional steps in that direction. And I don't know, it's weird, but it allows you to show up for it more fully and kind of make space for it to be uncomfortable in your, in your mind. So I kind of shifted into that state where I said, I'm going to, I'm going to beat this lip balm addiction once and for all. And when I made that decision, even though it was uncomfortable, it was bearable. And I was able to get through one day and then two days and then finally a month later, without even realizing it, I woke up and started going throughout my day. And, and then I was like, oh my God, I didn't have it. My lips, they're naturally moist.

Weird.

And I've never used it since. And that was, that was over 20 years ago.

It's freaking me out.

So went from using it every 5 minutes to no, don't think about it anymore.

Yeah. Okay. I mean, I get that at a deep level because I have a lip balm in every area of my house in life. I probably have 30 that we could go find.

I imagine. Yeah, I know the feeling very well because I'm convinced I need lip balm.

Yeah, that would be hard. That one would— that one would be tough.

But that's— but that's— so that's a really interesting example. You said— I don't know if you're exaggerating when you say 30, but that's what ends up happening when we find ourselves unable to be as intentional with some of these things. Maybe it's for some people's exercise or alcohol, you have to have 30 bottles of something, or you have to have women all over the world, or you have to have, you know, whatever your thing is, it literally controls you to the point where your life becomes more and more distorted. Because you can't, you can't control the thing that is essentially dictating how you spend your days. And I just didn't like that. I didn't want— I didn't want a little thing of lip balm to have that level of control over me.

Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of other things. Yeah. Okay, what do you think out of the— because you do 10 challenges in the book?

There's 10 challenges in the book. Yeah. Um, just as an example, it's stuff like being grateful for 7 days, meditating for—

and they're all 7 days at a time?

They're all 7.

Okay, fine.

Yeah, and they don't have to be 7 days in a row. Okay. So one of the, one of the most interesting challenges, because I've facilitated a year-long training with all of these challenges and these were all the most popular ones.

Okay.

But the hardest one by far, not complaining for 7 days, going a full day. You can think a complaint all you want. You just can't say it and you can't type it, but you can think it. And it sometimes takes people 3 weeks to go 7 days because once you complain, once you complain, then you reset and you have to start over the next.

Okay. It's a hard one.

It's the hardest one.

Yeah. I'm super good with complaining and bringing it up right away so it doesn't feel like one though.

Right.

You know, I'm like, oh, it's so cloudy today. But I lived in the Midwest and this is a great day. But it just feels good to start with like, I don't love this, but here's how I can love it, you know? But I still complain. The front end is a complaint.

Yeah.

And that's my profession.

That's progress.

You're aware of it.

You catch it in real time and then you shift it and you reframe it.

Oh my gosh, Kaleigh, we'll take the challenge. We are trying to not— we're actually trying not to complain at all at the gym. We've actually— that's been our challenge has been we're not allowed to say this is hard or heavy. And you don't realize how much you say that. Like, I want— because we were just at the gym and I said, I want this to just feel like I do it without thinking about it no matter what. I have been lifting weights since I was 8 years old, okay? And like, that is still— I'm 45. I'm like, okay, I just want this to— and it's okay if I observe it, but I do want it to be more like I'm going to turn it into excitement. So I'll get back to you on that.

You know what it does too, is it brings more humor into your experience. You can't complain about something and you want to complain. We'll make up other things knowing. Especially if you're with your friend and you guys have the kind of inner dialogue and you look at each other and you know.

I'll like know it's a complaint masked in something really happy.

You're like, "Mm, this tastes so good." "Gosh, I love these heavy metal things.

These are so fun to pick up." Yeah.

I think that would also save relationships as well. Oh my gosh, just practicing it, you know. And if someone can't go 7 days without complaining, you really need to go 7 days without complaining. Yeah, because everyone around you is probably miserable.

Yeah, I'm gonna start with a complaint here. But I'm from the Midwest. And that's all I have to say is that I— some of the states might actually evaporate if we did this challenge. Like, I don't know if they'd exist. But I get, like I said, I'm professional at this, but it's like weather, especially when you're in tough weather, like that's a thing. Weather's a thing. You've traveled all over. Weather's, weather's a thing.

There's a reason why I live in Mexico City.

Exactly.

Eternal spring.

I don't want to be hot.

I don't want to be cold.

I will say though, the, like, if you can turn no complaining in some where you know you don't have the best situation, you're going to be like bulletproof, which is amazing.

So Or you make a change. You know, people don't realize you have agency. You don't have to stay at that job that you're complaining about. You don't have to stay in that situation that you're complaining about. If you don't like your body, you don't have to have that kind of body.

Yeah.

So not complaining again, it wakes up, it stimulates your awareness, and you start to ask yourself different questions. Okay, well, what are the options? What is my— what is the possibility? And that's where change starts.

Yeah.

So we're just trying to meet people where change actually starts instead of jumping to fixating on what they want, but then telling themselves all these weak stories about what they can't do. Mm.

A lot of juicy questions, you guys, in this book. I think it's going to bring a lot of awareness for you, which I'm excited for people. So where can they get it?

They can get it on, on Amazon.

Yeah.

Yeah. I would say just go right to where you always get all your books.

I don't know why I still ask that question. It's like the dumbest question. Like, where can we get it? You're like, well, where do you buy books?

That's where. So, and you can also get it on my website, lightwatkins.com, but Amazon. And, um, and you mentioned something earlier that I, uh, I wanted to loop back around. This was a book that took me a weekend to write.

Yes, please do tell.

And the story behind it is I met someone who is a tech founder in San Francisco. And, you know, these guys are all super ambitious in different ways. And he was telling me about a mutual— about a friend of his who was a runner, and he had never run a 100-mile race, and he wanted to do that, but there were no 100-mile races. So he self-organized a 100-mile race, and he did it by himself, and took him like 72 hours. And at the end, his friends got him a trophy and an In-N-Out Burger. To celebrate. And he was telling me that story, and it was very inspiring. And I started thinking to myself, you know, what's my version of that? I definitely don't want to run 100 miles because I'm not into that. But I thought, huh, I've been wanting to write this book, or I've been planning to write the book. I said, what happens if I write the book in 72 hours, from Friday to Sunday? And, uh, and so I sat down one weekend. I, I cleared a weekend a few weeks later, and I sat down and wrote the book. And a lot of my friends will ask me now, you know, did you really write that book in a single weekend? And it's like, yeah, I did actually. But just a little context, it's because I had written 4 books before that. So, you know, still though, still.

But that's not—

yeah, but I know how to write books. I know what— I knew what I wanted to include because I had been facilitating this coaching program that the book is based off of. So I had stories. Yeah, I had case studies, and I had a framework already. So then it was just a matter of putting it all together. Yes, it still took a lot of effort. 12-hour days. Yeah, but it was a fun challenge.

So brain fried?

It was, but it was, you know, I was telling my friend this the other day, there's two kinds of tired. There's tired because you're doing things you really like, which kind of makes you feel a little bit buzzy tired. And there's tired because you've been ignoring doing the things that you've always wanted to do. And that tired is like depressing and exhausting, where you can't really show up for anything else. You just want to sit at home and you're apathetic. So it was a different kind of tired. It was the more buzzy tired.

That's inspiring. Like I've been wanting to write a book. Like I've put in a full day at work doing something that feels aligned.

I feel like I left it all in the field. That kind of tired.

I love that.

Yeah.

Yeah. I've been wanting to write a book and I have the, like, But I don't want to do the process I did at all. Like the last process of my book in 2017.

What was that?

Long, arduous, didn't really have my outline changed a lot. It wasn't like super clear on exactly what I wanted in there. I didn't— wasn't super clear on what stories to tell. And now I'm like, no, I would sit down.

You just described the writing process.

Yeah, exactly. That's—

there's no— guys, that is how it is every single time. Don't think it's any other way.

You know what I think happened though is I've just done so many.

That's like somebody running 100 miles going, "Man, it was long." Yeah, I had to run.

It was weird.

It was arduous. It was arduous. My feet hurt. It's like you just described running. I was out of breath.

It was like a year.

I hit a wall.

You know, I don't want a year. What happened for me is every time I went to go sit back down, I forgot what I wrote because I just— there is a lot of magic in just like making it happen in a short period of time because you don't forget what stories you put in and you don't have to go reread everything 100 times, which was half of the battle.

Having a little bit of space, honestly. And so, yes, I wrote it. I wrote the— I wrote the first, or I would say probably the third draft that weekend. Then I took the next weekend to just go back and, and, and yeah, one more time.

Okay.

I wasn't sitting there thinking what's going to go in the book.

So yeah.

So I think having that space helped to— you have to get away from it a little bit to come back to it at least a couple of times to understand, you know, is this cohesive? Or was I just, you know, high on my own supply?

Yes, totally. You go back a week later and you're like, well, let's try it again. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, it's so fun.

It's absolutely—

it's so nice. We got to, you know, we, like I said earlier, we did one online, but in person, so nice. You can just like drop in so fast. It's wonderful. You guys go grab the book. I have everything linked in show notes so you can go find him, you can follow him, you can do all of that thing. The things right below. So we will see you on the next podcast.

Bye, everyone.