Tough Titties! Author Laura Belgray On How To Give Yourself Permission To Live Your Best Life

I'm really glad to hear you say that you are socially awkward at parties because it is a gift to people to admit these things that are your hang ups, your anxieties, your flaws, things about you that other people might judge. It's such a gift for other people to hear that and see it and it gives them permission to be the same way or to accept that about themselves. Foreign.

Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. I'm so excited you're here and I want to send you the fastest manifesting tool and the fastest tool that I have ever used to get present and stop thinking about my to do list like you might be right now and start really getting the feelings that I.

Want for the day.

This is the quickest way that I energize myself, that I boost my mood and that that I turn myself into an actual magnet for everything that I desire in my life. Not to mention I just drop in and get so much more present when you really focus on doing this exercise. So, you guys, I wanna send you my power 9. All you have to do is go over to my DMs on Instagram, Lori Harder, and just message me the word power. Nothing else, just the single word power, and that is it. And I wanna send you my power 9. It's gonna take less than 2 minutes to do every single day. And I'm telling you, started doing this over 10 years ago and it has changed my life. So I want to hear about it. I want to hear what you do after one week and how you feel and how much has changed your life. You can do this with your partner, you can do this with your friends, you can do this alone. You can do it as journal prompts. But it is one of the biggest secrets of how I really got started into focusing on what I wanted and creating what I wanted in my brain, because that's where it all starts. So on the podcast today, I have a really incredible woman. Her name is Laura Belgray. She's the founder of Talking Shrimp, co creator of the Copy Cure with Marie Ford, and author of Tough Titties. Yes, I said it. Tough Titties. It's an amazing book on living your best life when you're the fucking worst.

Yep.

Love this title.

And if that doesn't give you a clue on what we're about to experience, I don't know what does. An award winning copywriting expert, she helps entrepreneurs find the perfect words to express and sell what they do in a way that gets them paid to be themselves. Through her work with Hundreds of clients, including online biggies, like I said, Marie Forleo and Amy Porterfield. She seen firsthand that putting you into your copy and through your business is pure magic for getting people to love you, share your ideas, and happily click the buy button. Yeah, I was pretty much eating out of her hand when I used to go to her page and learn all about how to write copy. I have taken the copy cure. I have used it to write copy that has absolutely converted in a massive way. Her list of clients includes NBC, Bravo, hbo, tbs, Fandago, and many, many more. So she works with the big dogs, you guys. So let's get get started.

Laura, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. Thank you for coming on.

Thank you so much for having me, Laura and Lori reunited together again.

Laura and Laurie, we need to sing.

You have a voice.

I can karaoke. I can karaoke with the best of them. Well, it was so much fun to be able to see you briefly at Jen and Chris's wedding, which was so cool to actually get to hug you in person. That was kind of cool.

I love that. And I also love that you were the pioneer of taking off your shoes. I was tempted to follow suit, but my feet were in such pain by then, and I was already so sweaty that I just couldn't even bear to. I actually, when I got home, I had to peel my shoes off. They were that stuck to my feet, so it wouldn't have gone well at the wedding. But I love you. Were. Were dancing up a storm like I wanted to be and going for it with the sweat factor. You were just schwitzing. I was already schwitzing, just standing still. So I just couldn't go to that next level.

You know, I have this thing where, like, I'm really socially awkward, so I, like, this is a legitimate truth. I kind of went all in with the dancing because I'm like, that seems fun. Like, small talk is hard. Dancing seems really fun. Let's go do that. And you're accurate. That dress was like. I essentially wore a sweatsuit to my long sleeves. Long sleeves, danced and just. It was pitting out.

And I was.

I was putting out my short sleeves. I love hearing that you feel socially awkward because nobody would guess that. And it's always a. It's always a relief when somebody admits something like that about themselves who seems like they are like, the life of the party.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. No, and you guys, I was just. We're going to talk about your book, Laura, which is Making me feel so good about myself and my life, knowing that there's so many of us out there with the best title ever, Tough Titties, which is so great. It's exactly like what I would hear growing up. So this is making me very excited. But, yes, I feel like we are all. I love conversations like this because it just helps us discover that we're all pretty much the same. Trying to, like, do this adulting thing, which is really just hard.

So. It is. It is. I'm kind of a no go on the adulting front. It can't do most of it. I really can't. Like, the paperwork, the cooking, I don't know, making decisions, taking care of other people, having kids. That's one another, a big one that I skipped, that I talk about in the book. Yeah.

You're like, I'm still trying to take care of me. My husband and I literally say that we're like, okay, we're working on having children, meaning, like, we're trying to figure out how that's gonna happen in our lives. But we still question ourselves frequently. Like, are we sure we're really supposed to be looking at this? Because we hardly take care of ourselves. Like, we're just getting by on this one. So. Okay. I love what this book is about because. Well, number one, I would never guess that you. This was kind of the beautiful message that you're coming out in the world with, which we'll talk about in a second. But where did this book come from, Laura? Like, why did you feel like you absolutely had to write this book right now?

Yeah. Well, first of all, because I've taken just so damn long to write it, and I've always wanted to write a book, and it just took different forms in my head, different ideas. I remember in 2003, announcing at a birthday party, like, I'm writing a novel. And that never happened. And before that, I was typing away on this little notebook, the little Sony Vaio notebook in cafes, writing about the terrible relationship I was in, which is in the book, in the chapter, he's never going to leave her married salsa instructor. It's a whole thing. You know, I think what stopped me from writing the book that this finally turned out to be all along was, I don't know how it ends. I knew I wanted to write kind of a memoir, like a collection of essays that would arc to some sort of final moment, like, of I've made it. And I never felt like I had gotten to that place. And by 2019. 2019 was the year that I turned 50 and I had my first million dollar year. Which may not sound late to most of the world, but in our online circles people are hitting the eight figure mark in their 20s and 30s. And so I've had opportunities to feel behind all my life. And at that point I really did. I'm a late bloomer and felt like, oh, but I'm finally getting somewhere. I'm still a late bloomer, but I feel like I've achieved this measure of success that is worth writing about. And I finally have some sort of arc to my story from like misfit trying too hard loser to successful trying too hard loser.

It just never, it never leaves us. It's always just right, right there, following along. First of all, it's so weird to me that you're like, oh, I've always wanted to write a book because in my head you've always been a writer. Like, I have been on your newsletter since I can't even, like, I've been a part. I feel like I've been a part of following you. I remember looking at your website and being like, who is this woman? Where has she been my whole life? The way that you show up in the world and speak. So you're with your copy and I took copy. Kieran did Marie Forleo in your course. I loved it. It actually rocked my world and changed my life and has helped me sell things out because I think my copy's really good. Like, and I have faith in my copy now because of you guys. So I think that's so cool. So, number one, thank you. Number two, thank you. You are a writer. It's so strange to me to be like, oh my gosh, I wonder if you've struggled. So this is my first question.

Yeah.

Did you struggle when you wrote your book thinking, am I an author? Because you've always been a writer. Like you've. I've just always felt like, of course that would come naturally to you.

Yeah. You know, I always wanted to be an author and would consider myself a writer. And when people said, what do you do? I would say, I'm a writer. And they'd say, oh, anything. I know. And at first that was in tv. I'd say, I write for tv. And they'd say, anything. Any shows. I know. And I'm like, no promos. I write the ads for the shows. Oh, that's cool. And then later working in the online space and writing a blog and writing emails and all that. I'm a writer. Oh, anything. I know. Well, I Write these emails. If you're signed up for them, you would know them. But I. So I felt like I, I owed it to myself to write a book that I could say yes, something you might have heard of and hopefully they will have and I, or I could hand it to them. I wanted that. And it's funny, I was friends with this woman who's in our space transit. She's not on social media. Her name is Alexandra Franzen. She's a writer, copywriter, writer. She helps people write their books. She's written a lot of books herself. Tiny ones, big ones. And we met up when she was in New York City once and went to a dance class together. She wanted to come to my dance class. So we're sitting on the floor stretching and she said, so tell me, do you have a, like a body of work? And I remember saying like, oh, I mean, I have my blog posts and I guess if you put all my emails together, they'd be a body of work. But I just really felt in that moment like, God damn it, I need to write this book. That's a body of work.

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You're like, oh, I can put a collection of my emails together for you. Yeah, but truly, you are an incredible writer. When did you figure that out? Like, what? First of all, when did you really look at your stuff and go, this is really good. Like, you know, the stuff that makes you laugh.

I think for most of my life, I have considered myself a writer and a good writer. And I've known that I had that talent, though, in starting in like, middle school and then high school when it was homework, I hated it so much and I agonized. And when I had a paper due, people said, but you're such a good writer. Yeah, but it's so hard. I don't know where to start. I don't like the structure of it. Creative writing assignments I really liked doing. But I still have this pressure on myself. Like, I don't know what to write about. And when people ask me what I wanted to do with my life, especially after college, I'd say some kind of writing, like, or something entertainment. Y. But I knew that, you know, if I wanted to write novels, there are just different, you know, these forms of writing that were the path to being a writer. You write books and that would. That to me, like, I pictured myself sitting in a garret with a typewriter with, you know, a wastebasket full of crumpled drafts and tears. Or screenwriter. I was like, you know, I'd love to write movies or TV shows, but that involves having an idea for one. And I don't have an idea for one. I would always tell myself, you know, these stories we tell ourselves. And I also probably didn't want to move to la. It's like, well, that would involve moving to la and that would involve being a driver, which I'm not. So every form that I went through, I thought like, okay, maybe advertising would be cool. Because I'd seen that there was a movie with, called Nothing in common with Tom Hanks and Jackie Gleason, where Tom Hanks works in advertising and he sits and throws pencils at the ceiling. And I thought that was like, they sit around throwing pencils at the ceiling and brainstorming. And that looked fun. And I was like, maybe some form of that, some kind of advertising, something creative. But I just didn't know what form I would like to write in. And then when I discovered copywriting and wrote my first piece of copy, I was like, this is what I like to write. It was an advertorial for a magazine. I had an internship at a magazine called Spy. And this was this very cool downtown New York publication. And in our internship, we were expected to pitch stories. They wanted to groom us into editors. And I didn't come up with a single story. And I was like, okay, I guess I'm not a journalist. But they took pity on me when my internship was up and hired me on the ad side and assigned me an advertorial. So the advertorial. An advertorial is those pages of the magazine that look like they're part of the magazine, but then in tiny print at the top it says advertisement promotion. And I did one for doer scotch. And it was. It contained an essay, ironically, on adulthood. I was still living in my childhood bedroom, which I did till 26. And then there was a quiz called do you party like your uncle Marty? Which I came up with. And it was a quiz to determine whether you were like, hip swinging person or an old fart loser. And if you were an old fart loser, then the remedy, of course, was drink doers. So when this came out, I had a whole page in the magazine that I wrote. And it was. I was like, this is what I like to write kind of short, funny things. And I don't have to come up with a story angle. I don't have to investigate. I don't have to carry around a journalist notebook and looking. Sniffing out a story. That wasn't the path for me. And so that's where I discovered, okay, there's a form of writing. I knew I was a good writer, but I discovered there's a form of writing that I'm actually good at and like to do and could get paid for.

So how did that evolve into someone like me finding you randomly? Like, how did that. I was like, who is this woman? I love her. And then helping kind of in my space, like MySpace, personal development space. I was selling different memberships at the time, different E courses, events, things like that that I remember kind of weaving some of the your stuff through. So how did it go from, hey, I think I love this too. You grew a really. I mean, pretty much everyone in my space knew your name. How did that.

Wow. Thank you. I never said, like, ever in my life said, I want to have my own business until I did. So I went from that, like, magazine job to other copywriting jobs to writing for tv, writing promos for tv. And I did that for many years. And then what happened was a person named Marie Forleo. I met her in hip hop class at Crunch. I love this. Yes.

Okay.

It was 2003, and she was in this hip hop class that I went to every week that I lived for. All of a sudden, she was always there and always in the front with her, like, perky little ass and, you know, bouncy body and bouncy hair and looked so good. She always looked so cute and hit all the moves. She was always like, hit, hit, hit. And always in the. You know, the teacher would bring her out to demonstrate. Like, Marie in the front when it was time to, like, divide the room in half and demonstrate. So she was so annoying. And then I started, I'm going to.

Some hip hop classes right now, so I totally know who that girl is.

And I'm, you know that girl.

And I'm like, oh, come on now.

Yeah, exactly. And the teacher announced he was going to do a striptease class. And she was like, can we, like, dress up and make it really fun? And I was like, can you make it really fun? I was like, no. And then I started talking to her one day, and she was really nice. And I bought, like, totally. And I was like, oh, now I have to like her and not hate her. And she was a life coach and a bartender, and my boyfriend, now husband, was opening a restaurant at the time and needed bartenders. So I was like, do you want another bartending job? And she was like, yeah, sure. She already had two, and she wanted another. And so I got her and hooked her up with that job. So she bartended at my boyfriend's restaurant, and we became good friends. And we'd walk home from the gym class to get from our hip hop class together, all sweaty. And years later, I mean, she. I was aware of what she was doing. She started teaching her own classes, which I went to. And she would begin them with by saying, I'm not only a hip hop teacher, I'm also a life coach. I have an email newsletter, and it's free. These were the days when people would be like, it's free. I want a newsletter. And she'd say, if you're.

Please spam me, please.

That's right, exactly. Sign your name on this yellow legal pad that she would pass around the class and people would sign up. It was like an analog opt in. Oh, my God, I love this. All right. And she told me about this thing that she was doing. Like, she had a group course that was online, and it was on the telephone, and people would sign up, would pay her like a thousand dollars, and then she would talk to them as a group on the phone. Phone. And it just blew my mind. And it was like a thousand dollars a month or something. And I remember telling my husband, do you know Marie is making like $25,000 for this thing that she does that's just a phone call. And I was just blown away by this. I still didn't say, oh, I could do that. I was just mystified. And then years later, I was making a website for my business for writing promos and thought, I'll just. I'll put my reel on it, and then I can. It's easier than sending a DVD to people. And Marie said. I showed it to Marie, and she's like, it looks great. Where's your opt in? I was like, my what in? She explained, this is what you do, how you make an opt in, etc. And then you give a freebie. And she's like, and you're gonna have a blog, right? I was like, isn't it too late to have a blog? And she was like, no, you weren't. It was 2009. So I was like, I thought blogs were over. And so she got me to. She's like, you love to write. Of course you should have a blog. So I put up an opt in. I put Up a blog. I started writing on my blog and I did a presentation at her first live event, which was called Rich, Happy and Hot live to like 50 people in the Soho House library today. If she did an event, it would be like a thousand people. So she invited me to speak to them about non sucky copy. I did a talk, five secrets to Non sucky Copy. People started coming up to to me after the presentation and said, hey, can you help me with my copy? Like, I'm a realtor and I have no idea what to write on my website. Can you help me with it? And I'm a coach and I need help, you know, writing a sales page. And it was not the kind of copy I'd ever written, but I knew that I could do it. I was like, of course I can help you, because I knew how to write in a human voice and I knew that most people did not. So I knew I would naturally be better at it. There was no worry about like, oh, I don't know how to write direct response copy. I didn't know even what that was called. So I took on these clients and started to build, you know, this private client business on the side of my promo TV promo business. And that's how I segued into. Over time, I segued completely out of TV promos and into, you know, helping people with their copy and then doing it through courses as opposed to one on ones and group programs and that kind of stuff. But that is how I became the me that you now know. And how I started to get found was like, through my website, through my copy, through my presentations, etc. Then later my courses.

Okay, I love this because so many people listening always ask, like, how do you find your network? How do you connect with people? I'm like, you need to go and do interesting things and have conversations with people. Because in your wildest dreams, before you started the dance classes, like, you would have never been like, you're gonna meet someone at dance class that's gonna change the trajectory of your entire future. Like, you would have never. That would have have never come into your realm. But that's exactly how it happens. So I think so many of us now are. We're kind of like hiding in our houses and we're not doing those things as much anymore. I think you really need to go out and do that, don't you think? Like, go be out around people?

Totally think that. I mean, look at us, we're sitting here right now talking to each other because we saw each other. After years at a wedding.

There are.

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Yeah, you know, sweating our asses off.

I felt a kinship. I was like, she's sweaty, I'm sweaty.

Let's do this.

Let's do this. I want you to just finish the sentence first on the book. Like, I want this book to be.

What, a New York Times bestseller?

Ooh, ooh, that's good.

Yeah. That's what's called a vulnerable share. I'm at risk of falling on my face publicly because that's a long shot. That's not an easy thing to do.

I wouldn't have wanted you to write this book if you didn't want something big for it. I really believe that you have to, no matter what happens now. I wanted the exact same thing. Did it happen? No. But I believe it got me to a place where, like, so much further than I would have landed if that wasn't a desire. So I was everywhere saying, I'm going to be a blah, blah, blah. And thank God I did because at least I got bestseller on different lists, right? And like and at least I sold a lot of copies that I feel really good about. And I feel like if I wouldn't have reached for, you know, the stars, that I wouldn't. It's like, why? Like, what's the effort you're putting in? So I love that. I would highly recommend continuing to say that because it's got all the characteristics of one.

So thank you.

An amazing writer, an amazing title. I can't wait to finish it. So let's dive in. Like, I want to talk about. You talk a lot about being the permission to be a dork, to be an unspiritual slacker, and 100% you. I love all these things because that's absolutely what I want, permission around. And I feel like. I feel like this is a really large part of my message, too. I really resonated with part of your. Your stories that I had started reading. Did this come out of you, like, putting a lot of pressure on yourself to think you needed to be a certain way? And what made you kind of be like, you know what? I just want to be permission for everyone?

No, I think that I have always given myself a lot of permission to be at least to be honest about who I am.

Where did that come from, though? Have you always been that way? Was your family that way? Because a lot of people would die to be this way.

It's funny, my dad was really unapologetically himself. I mean, the most embarrassing dad you can imagine, the guy who. Where, like, if somebody was playing drums on the street or break dancing, he would go and get in the middle, not try to break dance, just, like, do a little jig or something.

No, you and my dad, I swear to God, we are.

Okay.

Keep going.

He was mortifying. And at no point did I say, oh, I want to be like that. But I do. I think that maybe I did pick up some of that. Like, you gotta be yourself. He was so unpretentious. And I want to be. Let's be honest. I'm not somebody who gives zero Fs what anyone thinks of them. I want to be liked. I don't like being disliked. I want to be popular. I still want to be popular. So it's not like I'm fearless about being who I am, like, regardless of what anyone thinks. But I do kind of. I do kind of get off on just being honest about who I am. That's always really important to me. And I think it's a gift that I have. And I think the more, you know, I. We started off Saying like I started off saying to you, I'm really glad to hear you say that you are socially awkward at parties because it is a gift to people to admit these things that are your, your hang ups, your anxieties, your flaws, things about you that other people might judge. It's such a gift for other people to hear that and see it and it gives them permission to be the same way or to accept that about themselves. It's like when you go to a party and see somebody that you thought was supposed to be really fancy and see somebody wearing jeans and it's like, oh man, you can wear jeans at this party. I wish I wore jeans. Or if you did show up in jeans, it's like, thank God someone else is wearing, wearing jeans. Yeah, so I think that's, you know, the like jeans at the fancy party is what I like to embody. And so I don't think I ever was like, oh, I wish somebody would give me permission. But I do see the effect of giving other people permission and being honest about who I am. And it just gives, it delivers relief. And relief is one of the greatest gifts that we can give people, I think.

Oh, that is so true. So what do you think are some of the biggest permissions that you give.

In this book around, let's say starting at the beginning, permission to be petty. Because that first story is about hate. Following my 6th grade bully on social media and finding her incredibly basic and judging her and, you know, comparing myself favorably. And like, I know that. And that's part of where the unspiritual slacker comes from. It's like, I know that we are supposed to forgive, bless and release, wish a person love and light and like, see the pain that they must have gone through to cause yourself, cause you pain. Like, screw all that. I like, you know, follow hate. Following her gives me energy. Judging her gives me energy. So maybe so it's permission to be petty, to be a little bit unspiritual sometimes not be so perfect to, I think, sit with your, like, admit if you've got weird body and food hang ups. Like if you're somebody who's always on a diet but says, no, I'm just eating healthy, I'm eating clean. And it's not about, about being thin, it's about being strong. I'm like, why don't you admit just like, yeah, I know it's not the thing right now. And I'm like, we're supposed to embrace our curves, but I'm like, you know, lived through A lifetime of diet culture. And it's ingrained in me and it's like, who I am. Let's see some other permissions to love money. I talk a lot in the book about wanting, about wanting to make great money, about wanting to be rich, like, part a big part of my search for my thing in life, like career wise. Wanting to do something that tapped my talent but also made great money. And a lot of people don't like to admit that they want money, especially women. They will apologize for it and say, well, I do love having lots of money and I want wealth. Because when you have a lot of money, you have more to give away and to do good things with and help the world and help heal the world. And you become an example of what's possible for others. And I'm like, that's great. Can you imagine saying that about spaghetti? Like, I want lots of spaghetti because. Because, not because I'm greedy, but because when you have lots of spaghetti, you have more to give to others at the table. And you become an example of how much spaghetti is possible for you too.

I'm dying because, yeah, spaghetti, like, no, you just want. You just want it because you crave it. And you want to eat a shit ton of pasta while you're sitting there, right?

And no one apologizes for. And then also permission to be a late bloomer. Take your time to not take the straight path and measure yourself against everybody else's timeline. Some of us are slower than others. And I am around a lot of people, especially in our online space, who identify as Quick starts. I don't know which one that is the Enneagram or manifestors. Like human design. And I am neither of those things by any measure. I'm slow. I'm a marinator in human design. I had mine done. I am a generator, okay? And that means that I like to marinate. I like to respond to the world. I'm not the one who takes the first action. I kind of wait for the idea or I am responding to what's around me. And it's not a bad thing, it's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's in what they call an is thing. But God, I would. I love to be a manifester. Somebody who's like, I have an idea. And the next day it's a sales.

Page and making, you know, yes, okay, your book has come out. You feel like, okay, wow, I wrote the book. Like, what are you currently working on right now within this? Like, are you giving yourself permission around anything? Right now. Do you need permission on anything that you're hearing in your head right now?

I think permission to celebrate whatever happens with the book and not insist, not hold so tightly to this idea that that's got to make the list, you know, capital T, capital L. And permission to do what I'm capable of doing and not go beyond that. I'm not, you know, I know some people believe in like pushing yourself past your limits, et cetera, what you thought was possible, but I, I need downtime. I like to watch Vanderpump Rules and if I had more time, I would go back and rewatch old Vanderpump Rules and I feel like really short on my blank space on the calendar right now and. Because there's no limit to how much you can do to make your book a success. Zero limit. It's. There's always something you could be doing, I think. Have you ever worked in restaurants?

Yes.

Yeah. I remember like standing around in a restaurant once. Like, you know, I don't know what I was doing because I didn't have a. There was no phone at the. No iPhone at the time.

Exactly.

But like, what was I doing? Standing. I know.

What was I doing.

Right? And I remember the manager saying, you should never be standing around in a restaurant. There is never nothing to do. Look around you, there are a million things to do. There's always something to do. If you're standing here, you're not doing what needs to be done. And I kind of feel like a book is the same way. There's always something to do.

Uh huh. Okay. That's an interesting conversation in and of itself. Like deciding what that line is to make yourself feel like you did all that you can do, but also you will die if you do everything. Like, I remember that going, man, there's just really no peace within this whole promoting a book thing, is there? Because I, it's just. I was right. Yeah, it's, it's a lot.

So. Yeah.

I also want to tell you I did not make the list. You're going to make the list. I did not. But my book still changed my life. Like, it, it, it did all of the things that I wanted that I thought the list would do. It did those things. Things and then some. So like, it's kind of like you. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, it was a really interesting place for me because it was just like, for me, it was the Lister I wanted to die. Like, it was. That's how much I wanted. And it was just such it also gave me, like, the coolest. Yeah. Perspective and lesson as well. And it gave me more than I thought I could ever get. So I also want to add that.

Because.

That was just a cool thing for me to experience as well. But you're making list, so it doesn't matter.

Thank you. But that is something I really needed to hear right now. That was a very. I'm putting this in air quotes. Healing thing for you to say and to remind me of, because it's true. I know that that's really what I want in the end is for the book to change my life in some incredible way that I don't even expect. And the list is totally a vanity thing. And it's not like it changes your life that much. I mean, maybe you get paid more to speak or something or get. But I think also you probably get inundated with requests for blurbs and people asking you, will you read my book and give it a positive review? And you're like, I can't even read anymore. How am I going to read all these books?

It's like, I write, I don't read. Yeah, right, right.

And, like, it puts you in the position of saying no to so many people. And, like, so there are downsides that come with the list and it doesn't. It's not. Not, you know, Glinda, the Good witch that just transforms everything. Right.

Yeah. And I think just for anybody listening, like, it's. I fully believe in. What's the word? The bait or, like, the shiny thing that you want to go and do. Like, I believe in having the. Like how.

Carrot.

That's what I'm trying to say.

The carrot.

There's the word. Thank you, writer. Thank you.

Or the worm.

Yeah, I fully believe in the carrot and the worm, like a hundred million percent, if you like what we had started talking about. So anybody creating anything right now, like you said, that might seem big. No, I think it's vital that when we go into something, we have those things that excite us or you will fizzle out of energy. Like Laura, if you didn't have that right now, I don't know if you'd have the energy to do these bazillion podcasts that you're about to do. Like, the hope and like, the thought of what could be is what is also pulling you through. So I love that. And some people think, like, I don't want to think so big because I'll get disappointed. Okay, great. Like, allowing yourself to also be disappointed. So I love the whole big Dream thing. Okay, so earlier on in your life, like, you talk a lot about, like, the. In your book, kind of those earlier stories. What were some of the things that you had to overcome in your life in order to do what you're doing now and be who you are right now? Was there a narrative that you really had to learn?

It's super lucky that my business happened kind of by accident, because I would have had to overcome a whole lot more in order to say I'm starting a business and then start a business and have the courage to do that. And I probably would have gone down the rabbit hole of analysis paralysis and studied business for years and taken all the courses to get one off the ground. So it's very lucky for me that it's. It evolved on its kind of naturally and accidentally. You know, a lot of my stories about myself have changed. For instance, I'm not a leader, especially in. In having a business and growing that business from where it was, which was just servicing clients with copywriting, to actually helping people in groups and mentoring them and all that. I've never thought of myself as a leader, not naturally. I don't even like to tell people where to sit at a dinner party. And yet, somehow I've become one. And it shocks me all the time, but it's. It's so worthwhile. Even if it seem. Feels against my nature in abstract, I really love doing it. I love helping people. I have a mastermind called Shrimp Club. And these people tell me again and again that they wouldn't have done this without my help. They wouldn't have been inspired to do that. They wouldn't know each other. Like, I've created a whole community of people that's almost as big as, like. Like the real world. Road Rules reunion. You know, when you're like, all these seasons come together. Sorry, I'm dating myself. It's a long time ago.

Like, I love Road Rules. You're speaking my language.

Wow. There are so many casts now that have all that all come together. And I've done shrimp club for five seasons. And so they're like, you know, close to 100 people in there who now are a community. And I'm like, I can't believe I did that. Me, who didn't want to be a leader, who didn't want to take on that role, I guess a lot of stories about myself, one that I still continue to tell when people are like, you know, what's your next book? Maybe you should write a novel. Like, well, I don't have an idea for a novel. And my husband Stephen always reminds me, he's like, that's a story you're telling yourself. I don't know why you tell yourself that story, but I continue to. So I think a good number of my stories about myself, you know, starting with like early in the book, Boys Don't Like Me, caused me to do things that were not, maybe not in my best interest. And so overcoming those and seeing that those are stories, I think, what do.

You wish more people knew as they, you know, there's going to be a lot of people reading your book, and maybe some won't pick up your book until later. What is the overarching message? If you could only tell people three things, and these are people who want to go for their dreams, what would you tell people? Three things.

Okay. Can think of two off the bat. Okay. One being your timeline. Is your timeline, like, trust it. Don't think that it has to be anybody else's. If you are feeling behind, remember that it is in relation to somebody else that you're looking at. So maybe put on blinders. I saw, I think it was my friend Susie Moore who asked, put up a, you know, a quote on Instagram. I think it was hers saying, how would you feel about your life or your achievements if you didn't know what anybody else was doing?

Wow, that's good.

It is good. And I think the answer for most people is a whole lot better, a lot prouder of themselves. So that's one, two is it is okay to be disliked. It is not going to ruin your life. And that first chapter that we talked about, Deb Fishbone likes this, which is about my sixth grade bully. It's about her teaching me a lesson that I've had to unlearn throughout my life, which is that one person disliking you can ruin your life. So you must fit in. You have do everything in your power to fit in. And then once you're an adult, it is the opposite. Especially someone with the business. Like, fitting in and being the same as everyone else is is the kiss of death. And being a weirdo and standing out is where it's at. That's where your power is. Right? So. And you have to remember, life is not sixth grade. I think that's something a lot of us have to remind ourselves of all the time. Every time we're like, well, I don't want to do it this way because somebody not might not like that. Or I don't want to say this because somebody might not like that. And then they'll be mean to me. And so you have to remember it that that's fine for that person. It doesn't matter if they don't like it. It doesn't, it doesn't mean that it's that you or it is not worthwhile. And for any work of art, any show, any song, any person, any idea that you love and are so happy exists, there's somebody out there, maybe many people who say, eh, it's not for me. And you don't take that personally. When someone's like, oh, well, I don't really like succession. Like, what? How can that be? You know, you don't feel personally insulted. You're just like, what's wrong with them? What's wrong with that person? So you can have the same attitude about yourself, like, well, yes, there's something wrong with that person or I'm just not for them. And I think that's kind of two things in one. Those are the main messages is like trust your own timeline and be yourself because you are safe being yourself and in fact obligated to be yourself. It's a gift to other people and you're not going to be tormented for it the way you might think.

Such a good message. I used to just constantly compare, like, oh, she's younger than me. They're doing this, they're doing that. And it would make me even overload my schedule to the point where I hated my life. And I'm like, this is not sustainable or fun. And does this actually matter to me if I'm doing all of these things at the same rate that they're doing at the expense of, of liking myself and my life. Yeah, it's a crazy thought of what, what we do just because we're comparing to somebody else on the interwebs.

Yes, comparison. It is true what they say. Comparison is the thief of joy. And you know, that just reminded me of one more thing like comparison thinking like, you know how we're like, oh, I should be more like that person and I have this flaw and that flaw and I've got to fix everything sometimes. And one of the themes in the book is that sometimes our flaws really work out in our favor. And I'm not saying don't change a thing about yourself. I'm not the person who's going to say, you are perfect just the way you are. Don't go changing, don't go changing to try to please me. Right, exactly. But you know, if there's something about yourself you want to improve by all Means go for it. But that said, don't feel terrible that you have flaws and that you're not a perfect person. First of all. Again, it's a gift to share those with people, to make other people. Like, perfection doesn't create connection. Imperfection does. So that's how we bond. But also, I found that a lot of my flaws worked out in my favor. Like being terrible at corporate, that life, and unable to get there on time every morning, and then, you know, unable to dress that way and think that way and behave that and climb the ladder. That spared me a lifetime in corporate. If I'd been good at it, it. I might have been complacent and just stayed and, you know, climb the ladder like I was supposed to. But I was released within six months of my only, like, nine to five corporate job. Thank you. Flaw.

Oh, that's such an interesting question. Or thought. Because I was terrible at school. So if I was good at math and science, where would I be right now? Like, I literally would probably if I had an okay job or if I thought I made okay money, especially living in the Midwest, Like. Like, I may have literally been stuck in a job that is so not me, you know, that's really interesting. Yeah. Well, I'm so glad that I sucked at school, so.

All right, I'm happy for you.

This was so freeing. This was so freeing. Okay, what feels fun for you right now and what feels hard.

What feels fun for me is going out to dinner. Really going same. That's like. That is the time of my. Of the day when I'm like, okay, work is done, even if it's not done, because there's so much stacked up, you know, that I have to accomplish by the end of the day, and sometimes I don't. So I just love going out to dinner. It's my favorite thing. And being with friends and being with my husband, who is my number one favorite person to be with. And so that is what feels fun. And also, sadly, watching Succession on Sundays, sadly, because that's coming to an end. It's the series finale, and I'm very sad about that, but I just love. I do love watching TV on my iPad. And then what feels hard is just the challenge of the pressure of making this book succeed, especially the parts where I am pitching myself to people who've never heard of me. And I don't love rejection. I don't know anyone who loves rejection. They're masochists if they do, but I'm not that masochist. I don't like, rejection. And I face a lot of rejection putting it out there. Like, saying, hey, I'd be a great fit for your podcast. And it's someone totally outside of my world. Like, I'm going outside of my safe bubble of people who've heard my name, very small pond, and trying to go out there. So that feels hard.

Well, you're doing it, and you're probably feeling. Feel, I'm sure, proud of yourself. Like, I'm doing it. Even though this asshole over here rejected me, I'm still doing it.

Yes. Yeah. Still doing it.

Yep. And then that's the part that, like, at the end of this, you're going to be like, wow, I did that.

That is crazy.

Like, that's the. It's like the dream pulls you through all of those things to turn you into an even better person. If that's possible, Laura, for you.

I don't know. I don't know. Pretty peak. Yeah.

So good. Okay. So you're the queen of being herself. I really feel this way. Like, you're just. You're very comfortable, it seems. It seems in your own skin. And I feel like you give yourself permission to be you. What advice would you give to someone who's maybe reading your book? And they're like, wow, this chick really puts it all out there. And she is so herself. How do we get here here?

How did they get to be more of themselves? Yes. I think be honest about who you are and, like, play around with putting that out there. Embracing your flaws, bragging about them almost. I think. Not that you have to get into, like, failure porn and go out there and beat up on yourself all day, every day. But the things that you're afraid to admit that you think you might be judged for and play around with talking about those, because that's where the good stuff is. Whether you're writing or speaking or, you know, whether you're posting on social media or at a party, like, admitting things that might bring relief to somebody else. I think that is the place to start. And also try to surround yourself with people who make you feel like the most. You person. The most. The most you version of yourself. Because we all know there are some people that we find ourselves around. We, like, say things we don't really mean. Always gives me, like, a hangover the next day. Like, I was so not myself with that person. And for whatever reason. And then there are other people who make you just light up and bring out so much of your personality where you feel like, oh, my gosh, I'm so Me right now. Like, when you're, like, in the pocket of being you. So, like, take a note of who those people are who make you feel that way. Those are the right people to be around. Around.

Best advice ever. That's probably in the last probably, I would say three years, I've really, like, that's the advice that I have just gone, like, so hard on instead of like, you know, because there's the people who can. I'll just say it. There's the people we kind of can hang around. Or you're like, okay, well, this person could really help with my career. Or they're a shiny person and. But, man, I hate myself around this person. Like, I'm not funny. I'm like, I'm. I'm weird. I'm self conscious. Like, I've absolutely had those moments. And it's not them. Them. It's just our chemistry together. They're not bad people. They're actually amazing people. But I'm so freaking weird around them that I'm like, I hate whenever I leave this person. And I just decided that that is like, the universe saying, get the hell away from them. Like, it's not for you. It's not bad. It's just not for you. And honestly, Laura, that's the best advice that I have, like, taken is that my life has totally changed. It's like you become you in every realm that you live in if you surround yourself with those people.

I so agree. And honestly, I wish that you could be my one or, like, one of three podcast interviewers. And I like all my podcast interviews that I have lined up. It was like, oh, Lori, again, that would be so nice because I feel myself around you. In fact, I was talking. I went on our friend who you're very close with, Lindsay Schwartz's podcast and had such a blast talking to her. And I think I was just talking about being petty and talking, you know, and being the worst. And she was like, but you're not the worst. You're not the. A bad person. I'm like, no, sometimes I am. And I like to talk shit about people. And then I, like, really hope that they didn't hear me when they come out of the elevator. Like, oh, my God, was I talking loud? She was like, hang out with me and Lori because about people all day, so I know you're my people.

And then we're like, okay, let's clear. We're like, okay, we did that.

Let's clear. Yes, clear. Siege ourselves. We're good.

You have to get it up and out somewhere. I'm telling you, you can't. You can't just keep that tucked deep down inside of you and think everything's okay, because it's not. It's not. You got to get it up and out. Well, I am so grateful for you, you guys. Honestly, when I tell you that she is one of the best writers the like, you will laugh through the entire book. And I've only read a small part of it right now, and I can't wait to dive back in. But I have been reading your writings for years and years and years, and you have made me a better writer. Thank you for being out in the world and for the way that you show up and how real you are, which allows us to be even more real. And I know that this book is gonna be one of those books that helps so many people do that. So I appreciate you. I'm excited for when you hit New York Times and when you go out to dinner with your husband and you get to enjoy. We're gonna picture that moment. Any last things that you wanna leave people with. And where can we get your book?

I'll just start with where you can get my book, and then I bet I'll come up with a wisdom nugget for you. Or maybe not, but I do. Yeah, what. What I want to leave you with is pre order tough titties@tuftiddies book.com. it comes out June 13th. If you're hearing this before then, there are bonuses galore and you got to come over and get them, including a sneak peek of the intro chapter, which you'll get right in your inbox. And I also, if you're interested in writing a book and playing around with it or writing a book, I did a call that I'm giving a replay of for two copies, and it was my behind the scenes or behind the titties call. Deep dive into the whole process. Like how I, you know, started the book, how I got the agent, how I got the book deal, all the pain and suffering I went through, rewriting the book and the, you know, the time I spent in the fetal position and then get up to the initial marketing of it. So that's for two copies. And again, that. That's@tuftiddiesbook.com and you can also find me@talkingshrimp.com that's where you can come and be a better writer like Lori. And then on Instagram, hey, if you like this episode, please come over and tag us both. I am Aura Belgray. On Instagram. Like take a clip, post it, or just post a screenshot and then tag Lori Harder and the podcast. Right?

Yep. I love you. You just took my last line.

This is so great.

And like, I'll hop into all of your future podcasts so that you feel yourself while you're talking to these new people and you pop into mine and you do some of my smart and witty outros and intros.

Perfect. Great. Sorry to steal your thunder. I'm glad I did the job for you.

You sundered much better than me, so thank you so much. All right, you guys, guys, definitely go and do that all that she said and grab her book because honestly, we all need to be laughing at personal development. Seriously. And I'm so grateful. Laura, thank you so much. And you guys, until next time, earn your happy. Bye, everyone.

Sam.