The Leadership Skill Companies Forget to Teach

We promote our best people into management roles. Then, we hand them a title, a laptop, and a new business card, and a vague, ah, don't worry about it. You'll figure it out. And when they struggle, we quietly label them as difficult, disengaged, or maybe not leadership material. We're sitting there going, he was so good. What happened? But here's the thing. Most managers don't fail because they're bad people. They fail because no one ever taught them how to lead humans instead of kind of managing tasks. And that's what we're talking about today on Marc Haine Live. Welcome to this episode of Marc Haine Live. Of course, this is where small business owners and entrepreneurs pick up some core skill sets to help them create the show-stopping, jaw-dropping experience that your customers and your employees deserve. I am your host, Customer and Employee Experience Strategist Marc Haine. And I'm really glad that you're here with me today because my guest today is Holly Golbiasky. And today, we will be unpacking why organizations keep building managers but forgetting to build leaders. So, stick around with us. If you haven't done so yet, please make sure you subscribe to the podcast. That way, you'll get notified whenever we bring Fresh new content each and every week. Wouldn't that be nice? Just get notified. It'll be awesome. You know, if you're listening right now and thinking, why am I always the bottleneck? Why does delegation feel harder than just doing it myself? Or why does accountability feel so awkward? Why does it have to be tense and exhausting and so stressful? Just know, You're not broken. You're just doing a leadership job that you were never trained to do. You're a good person. But that brings me to our Question of the Day. So, where are you managing well but leading pure Poorly without realizing that you're not as good. Like, you know you're a good person. You know you know what you know. But at the same token, you also don't know what you don't know. I'd love for you to share your experiences with us. Why don't you go ahead and share a link to this episode on your favorite social media platform? Hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership. Put your comments down and become part of the conversation. I'd love to hear what your experiences have been. My guest today knows this struggle personally. She has lived it. Holly Golbiasky made the jump from field leadership to corporate management and nearly lost her entire career. She was trained on the tasks but not the hardest part of leadership, which is leading people. After working with an executive coach, she didn't just recover. She transformed. That experience led her back to school, into executive coaching, and eventually into helping build and facilitate her program Leader Skills. The approach blends marketing, neuroscience, behavioral economics to help businesses create campaigns that move people, not just the data. Today, Holly works with mid to senior leaders with high potential talent and struggling managers, helping them build self-awareness, confidence, and real leadership capability that actually sticks. Does that sound something like you might need? Holly, welcome to the show! It's so great to have you.

Thank you. I'm very happy to be here.

So Holly, you and I talked just before we went live about the fact that I believe that most leaders are incidental leaders. They were good performers. They got promoted. They figured, you know what? Hey Steve, just if you could just teach them to be as good as you, we're okay. That's all you need. What is the biggest handicap that leaders are facing today?

Yeah.

Well, I think the biggest handicap is all leaders have never been trained to be leaders. I mean, at the end of the day, that is it. We all find ourselves in a seat and I always joke around about the Peter Principle. Ultimately, a little bit of a twist on it. But we're all promoted to a certain job to where there's skills we've had heretofore have made us great at what we did. And then, you hit a top-out point. Where you just don't know, or there's things out there that you haven't had to face before. And everyone hits a point at that. At some point in their career, they're going to deal with that. So, the question is, do they get the training or not? And do they learn? Or do they realize it's something about training? Or do they feel like it's all them and they just give up? So, there's a lot to that.

Yeah, it's so interesting because to leaders, people who kind of maybe did the promotion, they're thinking, oh, it's just common sense.

No.

And I have a sneaking suspicion that they say that because they themselves weren't actually trained in leadership. They had to figure it out. Yeah, we have to figure it out. I remember being 17 years old, McDonald's. And they came to me and they said, Marc, would you like to become a swing manager? And it's like, That'll be awesome, right? And I thought, this will be a cinch because I will be working with my friends. It'll be awesome, right? And I went in there and all of a sudden, things started happening I wasn't prepared for. So, I thought, fine. No more Mr. Nice Guy. And then, I went and became like the dictator.

Evil villain.

And I hated that, right? I hated it. And of course, I lost all my friends. Everybody, Marc, you changed. No, no, you changed as soon as I got promoted. You took it back, right? And but here I was. So, 17, the maturity level really of a gnat. But then on top of that, no skills whatsoever. And so, why is it that organizations confuse management capability with leadership readiness? Like, what is going on here?

Well, I think a big thing is something you just said. So few people have really been trained on how to be a leader that they just don't realize that they don't know or the skills they think are their leadership skills are not really leadership skills. They're management skills. So, I think it is a lot of that. But it also ties back to a lot of people's education systems. And in the States, I don't know where all your listeners are, but I know in the States, K through 12, self-awareness isn't really a thing you're taught. Emotional intelligence isn't talked about. They're not core things that we start learning from a young age. And then, we get thrown out into this workforce and we're like, oh, well, we got to get it done. And I know the tasks and I know I have to get my people to do it. So, let's just go do it. And I think that those are things that, gosh, I wish were baked into the education system because I think it would help not just leaders but in how people solve their daily problems, how people interact with each other, and all of that. It all goes together.

It's interesting because of course, our education system was built around reading, writing, arithmetic to support industrial age thinking. And now, we're demanding more of our people. So then, it's like, I don't understand why we don't have people ready for it. You mentioned a couple of things. What are the core skill sets that leaders are missing today? You mentioned self-awareness as being one. What else?

Yes, I mean, just time management skills. It seems like something that everybody's like, well, duh, keep a calendar, have a list, use something like Outlook or just the different tools that are out there. But it's not that simple. As an executive trying to figure out, do I focus on this new policy and procedure manual? Should I make that an initiative? Or should I go after this new line of business that's going to create more revenue for my company? Like deciding where to spend your time and how to value your time. That is something that very few people have ever really been taught how to do and how to approach that almost from a mathematical point of view, like a reward on your time, in effect. So, that's another one. We also talk a lot about— one thing I think is important is just understanding how other people are different. And there's a lot of words that go into that. It can be empathy. It can be a little bit of self-awareness. But We're not trained to recognize how I hear things isn't how you hear things. How I perceive one sentence said the same by you and I, we can take that sentence very differently and just based on tone or body language. And that's okay. That's not right or wrong. It's just we're all different. So there's a lot of conflict, I think, that comes up in the world because of unspoken or unmet expectations. That's where all conflict comes from. So Trying to avoid that upfront and trying to communicate better is something I think a lot of people are lacking as well. And then also, how to handle conflict in general. I mean, there is a huge group. Every client I think I've ever worked with has struggled. And even the ones that know they're or think they're good at it say, I wish I was better. So, that's a big piece. You know, how to not make it volatile. How to make things a learning process, not a punitive process. You know, those are things very few companies talk about in training. So, those are just some. I could go on and on.

I mean, because the list of leadership skill sets is massive.

Yes, it is.

And I think all too often, to your point, we're challenged because it is so vast. And even the people tuning in right now, hopefully they're tuning in because they Googled something. They tripped over this episode. And it's like, yeah, I want to just know how to do better at this. I just want to be I want to know what I don't know, right? And that's a challenge. In your notes, you mentioned that you lived this experience. Can you tell us a little bit about your history? Where were you at and how did you almost lose your career?

Absolutely! I felt I worked really hard my whole life to always be number one. If you're familiar with the DiSC profile, I'm a high D, which means I want to be the best. Not that I want to run over everybody. But sometimes, I can lose focus and accidentally run over people by accident. And I was promoted. I was salutatorian of my class. You can look at anything in my history. I worked at McDonald's in high school. I ended up being a manager. Everything I've ever done, I've worked really hard to do well. So, it worked out when I graduated college. I already was in real estate and they offered me a position to be a regional manager. So, I went from that kind of onsite, Standing next to your people management to the corporate world where your people aren't right beside you. You don't see them and touch them every day. You're managing from afar. Started traveling. And I was taught all these things on how to do the job, how to take all the tasks. But there really was a missing element in that huge jump, not only in how to manage people from afar and how to manage teams like that, but also— having a team that is at a higher level of understanding too. Like, I'm not— I was managing managers now. I wasn't managing someone who hasn't maybe had a job for a few years or people that aren't in the beginning entry level. I was working with higher quality people. And there's a difference in how you manage those people. And nobody even mentioned that. It never occurred to me to think about that back then. So, and then tie that into my personality of I'm just going to work harder and harder to get the results that I need to. And I became a horrible boss. I mean, I was stressed. I was anxiety-ridden. I probably, I can guarantee you I made my people crazy. But I had no clue at the time. I just knew that people kept telling me, my boss, even some of my peers around me at the time were like, well, you just got to get your numbers better. You got to do this. You got to do that. And I'm like, yeah, but those are all tasks. I don't understand why my people are stressed. So, I was just at a loss. And I was fortunate enough after spinning my wheels for about 18 months, someone that I knew really high up in the organization who had gotten to know me well said, Holly, I know that you know how to do this. I know you can do this. But I hate to tell you, you're getting close to the chopping block because your numbers aren't there.

Right.

And that wreaks havoc on you in a lot of ways anyways. I mean, just the emotional mess of, oh my gosh, am I not good enough for this role? Am I beyond my capabilities? And then started asking around and talking to different people outside that industry and even some professors from back in my college days. Executive coach kept coming up. You should think about an executive coach. So, I actually, after trying to get answers from my boss and realizing in hindsight now, she didn't have the training. She didn't know how to help me. She didn't have ill intent. She just didn't know what she didn't know. And I went to her boss because once about once a year, he liked to really have a good chat with everyone in management. And I just said, is there any chance that we maybe ever would do an executive coaching kind of program? Because I just think I'm struggling in the leading my team part.

Yeah.

I know how to do the job. And I have no idea to this day why. But that man agreed. And they went out and found a coach. And I just— it completely changed everything because I mean, in the first— I spent 6 months with her and well, I spent a lot longer than that. But in the 6 months that I first spent, it changed everything. It changed how I approached people, my understanding of people, holding people accountable and how I did that. Realizing there's not one way to do everything right when it comes to managing people. It's like having kids. They're not all the same. You can't treat them all the same because they don't all like to be treated the same. So, there was a lot of things I learned and it just blew my mind. So, within a year, I was back to being promoted and back to training the peer group in my group at the time. And it just changed everything. So, I—

Love it.

I'm just so thankful because that executive coaching experience really changed. And had I not had that, I would have been terminated because I didn't know. I had no idea what I didn't know.

Right? It's so interesting because it mirrors like everything you've been talking about mirrors kind of my experience. And I'm sure people tuning in, it mirrors their experience. And the people tuning in right now might be saying, so what? What do I do? And so, I'd love to dig into some actionable strategies that our people tuning in can take And we'll get to that right after this.

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Welcome back! I am speaking with Holly Golbiowski. Is it— am I getting it right or is it Biowski? Oh, I don't know why I lost the sound. Hold on a second. Can you hear me?

Did you lose me?

I hear you. I did. I lost your sound.

Okay.

So is it Golubowski?

It is Golubowski.

Golubowski.

Yeah. Golubowski. Yes.

Golubowski. Okay.

Excellent. Sorry. I'm married to a wonderful man who happens to be from Poland. So that name is— I picked it up and nobody knows how to say it. So I go by Holly G.

There you go.

Welcome back!

We are speaking with Holly G. Holly, why don't you tell us a little bit about your program, Leader Skills?

Sure. Well, what I said before the break about the executive coach that I worked with. My company back at the time was really, I think, shocked. They called it the transformation of Holly because there was such an obvious change in me as a leader. That they went back to that coach, Nan O'Connor, and said, we don't know what you did with her, but we're impressed. And can you build out a program for all of our managers? And she said, no, there's plenty of off-the-shelf stuff. Go find something. And they're like, no, we've looked. It's either like 10,000-mile-in-the-sky kind of stuff, too high-level to really be actionable, or too basic that it's dumbed down too much and not useful in the daily environment. So, she looked around and she said, wow, you're right. There isn't very many programs that you can put in place and make actionable day 1. So, she went out and built a great program called Leader Skills. There's a total of 12 different sessions broken up into 2 courses. It is what I like to call and she likes to call no bullshit training. And pretty much, she looked at all of her top, top clients. And she's been a coach. She's a Certified Master Coach. She's been doing it for decades. Worked with some very high-level CEOs, COOs at some very major companies. And she herself owned a media company that did work for companies like Coca-Cola. So she's not from a small company by any means herself. And she'd looked across the board at what made her good clients really good and did just kind of a study of all of them and the ones that struggled, what were they struggling at? And that's how she came up with the topics. For the first 12 courses she created. And that is what she really realized she went over with me in hindsight. Like, it was all of that stuff. So, she built a program from that. And that is what is Leader Skills today. And it's partially online courses, partially we facilitate it also on Zoom with meetings. But it is, you spend probably 30 minutes reading through the content. You get a lot of tools that you can put in place right away. And there's also some really short snippet videos you can watch and a reference guide. So you can see, hear, read, you know, however you learn, you learn. And then you put it in practice right away. You spend 2 weeks practicing it live at work. You go through it with 6 to 10 people from your own company, or if you prefer to get exposure to other companies, we can break it up that way. But it's just been a wonderful program. I mean, we've had thousands of graduates at this point. 94% of them have come back saying they're going to use it for the rest of their life, not just at work but personal. We even have a money-back guarantee and no one's ever taken us up on it. So, I think it's definitely got a lot to be said. And I'm walking proof. I mean, it changed my life. So, that is the short version of LeaderSkills.

Well, you were the beta test. So—

Yeah, unintentionally. Yeah.

Unintentionally, yeah. Hey, so I mean, we've talked about several profiling systems on this show. We've talked about DiSC and the importance of different kinds of profiling systems that are out there. DiSC of course is one of them. Why is understanding this aspect of personality definition so important, do you think?

Well, first of all, DiSC is not a personality profile. It is an assessment of how you go about the things in your life. It's how you solve problems. So, um, it is— I could talk about this all day, so I'm going to try really hard to be not, not lengthy about it. But ultimately, it gives you a window into yourself. That's the first thing it does for you. Um, I remember reading through mine the first time, and I was like, I am railroading over everybody, and I had no idea. Um, and I can be very intense and just very demanding without realizing it when I'm trying to solve problems. I have a tendency to treat people like things instead of people by accident because I'm just crossing things off my list. And these are things that I just never thought of because it's how I always was, how I always did things. And they got me here, right? And I've been great. So, looking at that in the mirror was very helpful. A little overwhelming but it definitely gives you a lens to see how people are interpreting you in a way that you never have before. But then, the flip side of why I think it's so important and why we really teach it heavily at LeaderSkills is that it allows you to manage your team better. It even, I even had my husband take it. Like, it helps us in our marriage; it's that helpful. So it's, you know, here's how I solve problems. Well, here's how, you know, team member A, B, C, or D solves their problems, that kind of thing. So it lets you know, if I'm a high D and somebody's a high I, the differences between us and how I can adjust as their leader to better serve them. And I think that is such a critical thing a lot of us miss. We have one management style. We go out with that one management style. And then we get upset when an employee isn't, you know, doing the best they can. And we're the problem. You know, it comes back to us, not them. So I think the DiSC is, is very critical for those reasons. And then the third piece is, all the companies that I've worked with, you know, I push them to put the DiSC on a shared drive. So if you ever have to have a tough conversation with someone, or a rewarding conversation, like, hey, you're doing great. It tells you what they like in terms of how they want to be rewarded. What can make them feel better? Some people like recognition. Some people like just the quiet recognition, not in front of the whole room. Like, there's different ways you can do things for different people to make them feel the most rewarded. So, it's wonderful in that respect.

I love that. I love the being able because what it brings I think to the forefront is a level of intentionality. Intentionality is I want to know myself. But then, at the same token, I want to know the people around me and be able to adjust to them. Because you're absolutely right. Most managers are walking around going, I'm just me being me.

Yeah.

And that we need to be the flexible ones. And I think people, I think leaders who've never been trained don't understand that every situation is different. And for every situation, we need to adapt. And we have to be the adaptable one if we want to be effective. Does that mean though that if people don't understand DiSC or have never been through it that they'll be ineffective as leaders?

No, I don't think so. I think that if you are really devoted to self-awareness and emotional intelligence, if you go out and seek other resources without Seeing your DiSC, you can still get there and understand those things. I think something like the DiSC makes it much easier. I think it's, you know, it does cost some money, but there are some free options out there for a shorter version if you don't have the money to do it. But ultimately, it takes the intentional effort of, I want to recognize that I am not perfect and I can be better. And how can I do that? How am I perceived? Like that, that Just taking a step back to think about that is half the battle because so few of us do. And I think that's part of it right there that will help you get there.

Yeah. For those tuning in who go, yeah, you know what? I've never been trained. I'm just doing the best I can. Where do they start?

I think, well, I read a book in the very beginning that Nan recommended to me and I thought it was amazing. And it's Leadership and Self-Deception. I'm not sure if you've heard of that one. But it's by the Arbinger Arbinger Institute, and it really put it right in front of me. But there are— I think becoming a student to it is the key. You know, you don't— you can go to the library, buy— pick up some books. There's, there's so many. There's more out there than anyone could ever read. But there are definitely really good things out there. And I think the first step is becoming a student. But then the easiest thing on top of that is just start asking people around you. Hey, I want real honest feedback and I'm not going to be negative or nasty. I just want to really understand. So, I need you to genuinely tell me, what do you think I could do better? What do I do well? What do I not do well? And ask your team that. Ask your supervisor that. Ask your best friend that. Ask your partner that. Like really get out there to get a better gauge of how you're coming across. And I think that will be a great first step to really changing who you are as a person and understanding how you're perceived so you can go out and be the best you.

For the people tuning in who this is resonating with, if they'd like to get in touch with you to help them on their journey, how can they get a hold of you?

The easiest way is shooting an email. My email is holly@hollygcoaching.com. Very simple. For Leader Skills, we have info@leaderskills.training. Nothing after training. So, either of those are great ways to get in touch with me and I'm the one that's responding. So that would get right to me. Something very useful too that could be beneficial is we have free tips that Nan's drafted. She's written them herself. You can go on our website. We don't spam you. You just sign up for that and every 2 weeks you get an email with a tip from Nan. And they're snippets, but they're all something actionable that you could do right away or something to make you think about how could I be better. So, that is something a lot of people have found very useful. And for those that either can't afford it to sign up for leader skills training if they're just an individual out there, usually companies are paying for the leader skills training. That's a really good first step to kind of start your journey to growth.

Nice. And so, if anybody's interested, they should be going to their bosses and saying, hey, maybe we need to get together of all our middle managers and go through something like this.

Sure, absolutely. And we offer a free course. We offer a free course to HR professionals or executives if they just want to test it out to see what they think. So, that's a great way to sell it too. They don't have to spend any money. They can just come see what it's about. Terrific!

You know, the one word that keeps popping back into my head is intentionality. Like when you said, go to people around you and don't respond. Don't use it as kind of a benchmark. Because a lot of us will be very defensive when people come and tell us that. But you don't understand. The reason why I'm like that is because... And then, we start blaming them.

Yeah.

So, that intentionality. You mentioned something about the fact that you got into coaching for the very first time. And of course, that whole adage popped into my brain is you can't see the label from inside the jar. So, bringing somebody from the outside can be an important component. Can you talk a little bit about that? About if somebody wants to bring somebody outside, what are some of the things they should be looking for?

Bring someone from the outside? I want to make sure I understand the question.

Yeah, yeah. So, because you mentioned that you ended up with an executive coach, right? And so, at some point, you needed the humility to say, yeah, I'm willing to have help. Your boss needed the wherewithal to say, hey, she's important for me to invest in. So, can you talk a little bit about what it would take for somebody to start saying, maybe I need help?

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great question because sometimes, we're not as great as we think we are without realizing it. So, I think— I apologize. Someone opened a door and there's a cat. So, I'm going to try really hard to keep her away from the screen. But I think at the end of the day, none of us are perfect. None of us are the— even great managers are not perfect. So, I think everyone should consider at some point even having maybe a once-a-year check-in with an executive coach or a third party is a very healthy thing. It's very much like, I don't know if you've heard, married couples, even successful ones, should at least meet with a counselor once a year just to make sure things are resolved and unspoken conflicts are dealt with, that kind of thing. So, I think that Yeah. It's important no matter who you are to always take an intentional stop at least once a quarter even to say, how am I doing? How do I feel? Do I feel like my team is responding well to me? And be aware of that first because you're never going to recognize you need to bring someone from the outside unless you start there. And don't wait until you have a problem. Like, I think so many of us are just plugging along without intentionally thinking about how we can be better leaders or how we could be better at our job. We're just Yeah. Getting it done because we're all exhausted and stressed out and have so much going on. So, I would say that being mindful of being self-critical is a key piece in that. And then, if you think there is something maybe you could be better at, or maybe your employees, maybe your turnover is high and checking things like that is really good. And then, from there, you can start thinking about what do I want to improve and Google searching can do a lot. I mean, really, as silly as it sounds, if you think maybe you have high turnover, go Google, why could my turnover be high? And that's already going to give you a great starting point for other resources on what you could possibly do if you have a low budget or can't go after some of the high expensive programs out there.

Yeah. And you've mentioned a lot about everything managers have to do. They have so many tasks on their plate to do that they can't be leaders. And over the last couple of years, I've really been a proponent of training managers to be coaches. We need the way we run businesses. Imagine for a second that the coach of a basketball team decides, okay, you guys are really screwing this up. Come, I'm going on.

Yeah.

Right?

And now, that would never happen, right? The coach sitting at a hockey game wouldn't all of a sudden turn around to the players and say, get off the ice. I'll take over.

Yeah. And yet, this is what we do. That's a great example.

This is what we do when we have crisis in business. And so, this idea occurred to me that if we train managers to be more like coaches and be able to give them the space to be able to be effective coaches, as opposed to a whole bunch of task lists that You know what? Your number one responsibility is to help your team succeed. And in order to do that, you're going to have to do one-on-ones. You're going to have to do team drives. You're going to have to do all sorts. But you're going to have to be the coach, not the manager. What do you think when I say that? Is that something—

Oh my God! So many things. I have a couple. 2 things are coming to the top of my mind. First of all, Part of being a leader is giving your team room to fail.

Yes.

For example, my list of what not to do again is very long. But that list is what makes me good now. It's what I've learned along the way. The people that have just had win, win, win, win, win all through their career and now they're CEO of some big company, those people maybe have done a lot of things right. But if they haven't failed, they're concerning to me. Because what will happen when they face a struggle and how they're just redoing things they've done over and over. And maybe those things did work. But it doesn't mean they work for the right reasons or in the right time. Like maybe they got the best day and the best product at the right— everything came out right and perfect for them. So, I think that a lot of times, as leaders, we just don't understand that you have to let people make mistakes. learn from them and making it a learning process, not a punitive process. So, they realize, first of all, it's okay to take chances. I need to attempt to do it and have a little bit of freedom from not being terrified I'm going to lose my job automatically if I do mess this up. Because that's how they're going to learn, first of all. But I think also, people don't realize as a leader, when you do that, when you jump in to solve something, you're undermining them. You're saying to them, I don't trust you. You're not good enough. Or I can do it better. So, I'm going to do it my way. You're saying so many negative things to them and you're being counterproductive to the whole goal. The goal is to build a team that can be the best they can be without needing you every minute of every day. So, you can go do what you need to do. And when you jump in like that, you are setting up just a horrible example, a horrible system. And it's gonna just— it's gonna eventually catch up with you. So, I think that is really important too.

And what is the DiSC element for the people who feel they have to be the hero?

Well, I would say high Ds are very, very— I'm guilty of jumping in. That's something I learned along the way. So, high Ds tend to be the ones that'll jump in. But from our perception, it's we got to win. We got to get it done right. We're not thinking of it as you're not good enough, right? We have great intent but it's not— the road to hell is paved with good intentions, right?

Well, and even when I look back at my evolution, I used to think because I have the most keys, I have the most responsibility. And if people were to come to me, if they needed me because then I felt like I was the hero. I was validated. My participation was validated on every level because it's like they can't live without me.

Yeah, yeah.

But then of course, what happens? Burnout 24/7, right? Me feeling that nobody can do anything on their own, right? And so, but this happens to a lot of entrepreneurs.

All the time, yes. Right?

Because they started the business. It's my way or the highway. And then, when stuff hits the fan, it's like they're not equipped to help deal past that failure point. And I love that whole idea of de-risking failure to the point where it's like, why do we have this expectation that when people start something brand new for the first time, they're going to be perfect at it?

Oh my gosh, absolutely right. I mean, nobody should expect that. But it is a funny kind of cultural thing that we seem to be experiencing in most days at work. So, and you know, something else too to that, just getting curious. I really coach that a lot. And we talk about that in leader skills a lot. Just Get curious if something's not working right. Or if you are like, what happened to this person? They were a great employee and now they're not. Or why did they do this wrong? Or why are they always late? Whatever it is, just get curious. Ask questions because that's what executive coaches do. All we do is ask you questions. Important questions. But—

Yep.

You know, it's amazing how that can change so much about your relationship with other team members. When you're getting curious, it shows not only that you care, but it also helps you get more to the root of the problem. And truly, assumptions are what kill us, I think, in all relationships. We make by accident so many assumptions in our lives that are what really are hurting us. So, you may think an employee is doing something wrong or not doing things the way they should. And you assume all these reasons why based on the narrative in your head. Based on how you solve problems, which is not at all how they function. They probably solve problems completely differently. So, getting curious really opens a lot of doors to understanding, to being a better team, to working together, and to leading your teams. So, that is usually my word of the day every day. Get curious.

I love that because if anybody wants an example of that, just watch an episode of Undercover Boss because what happens Right? Because what do they do? All of a sudden, they get into a role. Number one, it's exposure into what the life experiences of your employee. But then, they start asking the employee questions and more questions. And I don't know if they're coached before they go on this show. But it's like, yes, this is the question. Like, we should be asking our staff questions like this all the time.

All the time. All the time. And we don't know. We think because we're the bosses or leaders, We know what's right, but we don't know. We're there to motivate and lead. We're not there to tell them how to— the right way to do these things. They're the ones doing them every day. So, it's funny sometimes how we get that complex or we'll get hung up in our own way because we did it one way. That's the right way. Being focused on the process—

Because I succeeded doing it that way. Yeah, because I succeeded doing that way. Just do it my way.

It's got to be that way. And I was guilty of this, profoundly guilty, by the way. So, I mean, every policy and procedure I ever wrote was the way I did it exactly for about 3 years of my life. And I learned there's a million ways to skin a cat. And if the results come out okay, then that's all that matters, provided they're not breaking laws, of course, or hurting your customer service. But that is a big thing too.

So, one of the things I keep tripping over with entrepreneurs and small business people and their managers is a lot of their afraid of investing in their staff for fear that they're going to leave.

Ah!

What would you tell them?

So, this is a big one for me that I'm going to answer your question. But I have another thing to throw in there with it. So, leader skills has a huge success rate and actually has helped our clients improve turnover because they are investing in them. And when employees are invested in and they felt invested in, they are And I'm not going to say the number because I know it's a high percentage, but I can't remember it off the top of my head. Their likelihood of staying is at least doubled at that point. Just because you said, you matter to me enough that I'm going to give you more training. So, keep in mind, if you don't invest in them, you already are doing exactly what you said you didn't want to do because you haven't invested. Sure, they're going to leave now. But if you do invest, sure, people are always going to have maybe an opportunity you can't offer them and they may leave. But the ones you do invest in, you're going to have a much better reward. You're going to have lower turnover even if a few leave that you did invest that time and energy into. And I always, I get so frustrated because this is probably getting to be a little bit of an older stat. I think it's from 2023 that companies on average spend $954 per employee for training. And if you think about it, say you have a A company with 5,000 employees and you have $954 across the board per employee. How much of that gets sucked up with new hire training? You know, right there, that is not very much money per employee. And when you suck all that out to new hires, you haven't spent any money probably taking care of your emerging leaders, the people who have been with you a few years now and are ready for more. But there's no opportunity for them because you don't have additional training to invest in them or Because you're being stingy and don't want to invest in them because you're afraid they'll leave. Well, that's silly because now you just don't have a better employee and they're probably going to leave because they haven't been invested in. So, it's kind of a— it's a very— that quote always— I hear that a lot because people are afraid of that. And I'm like, well, what the alternative is they're going to leave anyways. So, what's the difference?

The alternative is they're going to stay. You're not going to train them and they're going to stay and still be shitty employees.

That's very true.

But you know what's interesting is I always like, I think my big epiphany came when I thought to myself, my role because I had a staff of 400 employees. And so, my role was I believed was I wanted to make them the best version of themselves. And if the legacy to that, and I truly believe as leaders, We owe a legacy effect to our employees and it should be a positive legacy effect. I believe that when people come in and people go out, I want them to leave better than when they came in.

Absolutely.

Because I think that happens. We do it for our customers, right? We create a solution for our customers because we want them to come in with their problem. We want to help them solve the problem, leave better than when they came in. And so, why can't we look at that as being for our employees as well? And so what if somebody leaves? I was always thrilled when somebody left because they evolved. into a space where I couldn't serve them anymore. And I was thrilled to death when they got a job in marketing or whatever their magic passion point was. And I could look back and the result of it was like even today, I will get the occasional Facebook going, hey Marc, I found this picture from 1998 and I remember you did this.

Yep.

And it was like, really?

Amazing feeling, isn't it? I didn't even realize it made a difference. Yeah, I call that your family tree. It's your family tree professionally, you know, the people that have gone out in the world, um, and, you know, they move on to bigger and better things. And it's unrealistic to expect every person you ever invest in to stay with you, and you don't want them to because that means they're staying in positions they're outqualified for at this point, you know. So, right, I agree with you completely.

Yeah.

I think one of the biggest problems companies have is when you leave. I mean, I've lived this. Someone that invested in me and that I thought very highly of, I got an opportunity that company could not offer me. The position was filled. There was only one of that position. So, I left to be in the role that I was ready for. And he never talked to me again. Well, once. But that was for something business-related. But that hurt. And you know what? I was in a place where I could have gone back. But I'm not going to make that phone call now. You know, like, I'm not going to go back after that hurts.

Yeah.

So, as a company, I think it's critical that you understand that employees are just as much customers as your regular customers. You know, you are developing them and you're investing in them because it's not like the old days where they stay forever. You have to show them they matter. And you have to do those things to keep them there working for you as much as you need them doing the things every day.

So yeah, I think it's really ironic that we have aftercare procedures for our customers. But we don't have aftercare procedures for our staff.

Correct. It is very interesting. There are some really stark differences there where it's— and people that'll be like, well, I gave them their job and they just didn't get it done. I'm like, you can't just tell people what their job is and walk away. That's not how it works. You have to have check-ins. You have to make sure that they even want to be on your team because at the end of the day, You have to want— they have to want to be on your team. And if they don't, you've lost them. And then, you just have someone in a chair until you— that quiet or what do they call it? Quiet quitting, where people are just sitting there until you let them go. So, that's detrimental to companies.

Yeah. So, I'd like to get it as people are tuning into this. I'm sure we've had a lot of head nods along the way today. As people tune into this and think, yeah, they want to make a change, I'd like to get into some cautionaries and pitfalls. That we should be aware of when we're trying to instigate a change. And we'll get to that right after this.

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Welcome back! I hope you're getting a ton of value from today's episode. As you can tell, Holly and I are on a mission to support businesses just like yours. So, if you belong to an organization that could use our help or you Or someone you know might be planning a leadership retreat, a conference, training opportunity that you've recognized in your business. Drop us a line. We're here for you. We'd love to explore how we could be of service to you and your people. Holly, what first steps should business owners take to kind of reset and rebuild their leadership team if they've done nothing up to this point? What's the number one first step they need to take?

Well, I think that if it was me, and I was at that point, the first thing I would probably do is go out and have everybody on my team take a, take a DiSC and take one myself. Just taking it and reading it without even bringing someone like me in to train on it is already going to do a lot. But then I also think that if you don't have the budget for an expense, then I think just starting One-on-ones with your team is a huge thing so many people don't do. That opens a huge door. And always asking the same questions every time. How are you? Personal life also because these are not just machines. These are employees. These are people with their own real-life issues.

Yeah.

And then, what's going well? What's not going well? How can I help you? What are your goals? You know, always have those same questions. Because if you do that and you do it consistently, consistently, depending on their role, if they're a direct report, what they are, how often you do it. Some of my team members, I do once a week. Some are every 2 weeks. Some are once a month. And if you consistently do that, when there's a hard conversation or something not going well, it'll make it a lot easier because they trust you. You trust them. The relationship is there. And they're going to be a lot more responsive to a growing conversation if it needs to happen as well. And how many times do bosses, leaders not have the tough conversation because they just don't know how to approach it? Or they think they've hinted. That's my favorite. The hint game is so hard for people. Like, well, I alluded to the fact that this is not OK. Or, you know, well, I keep telling her she's late. And I'm like, well, but did you actually sit down and have a conversation about expectations going forward? Because— That's kind of important. You can't just say you're late. So, I think that would be something that you could do that's free. I know time is special and important and critical. But if you don't make time for something like that, you are never going to succeed. And your business will never be as good as it can be if you don't do that.

Well, and we talked earlier about investing in staff. Time is investment.

Absolutely!

Those are the 2 commodities. It's money and it's time. Those are commodity items. So, that is an investment. It's not just, I don't have time. No, no, no. It's an investment in your staff to give them the— and to your point, is it fair to say that having the kickoff meeting with one-on-ones with people will reap extraordinary rewards at the beginning?

Oh, absolutely. I absolutely think it's huge. I mean, and it just in the setting of the tone too and creating the relationship. But also, it's setting right off the bat, you matter. I have made time for you. And this is a critical point. You have to keep the time. You can't say, I'm busy and bump it a day, or I'm busy and bump it a week, or cancel it because that says— that's actually detrimental to what you're trying to do. It says, oh, I made time for you. But oh, just kidding. I don't have time for you. So, that's not healthy.

Oh, wait a minute. I'm still working on my laptop. Keep talking.

It's fine.

I'm listening. Yep, it's kind of like companies. I always joke around but it's very true. When people put their mission statements or their goals up on the wall, you can't say, we're always going to do the right thing, and put it on your wall and then not always do the right thing. That doesn't feel good to your employees. That sends a bad message that pretty much says, we're liars. So, it's very important that you do what you say you're going to do as well.

Yeah, I love that. So, as people want to instigate the change then, are there any cautionaries and pitfalls they should be aware of? Things where maybe it's skewing in the wrong direction or things that they're tripping over. Again, never being trained, we're gonna fail.

Absolutely.

But we need to fail forward. So, what are some of the things we should be on the lookout for?

Well, I think it's very critical to go back to what I said about unmet and unspoken expectations are the cause of conflict. So, you need to make sure you're very clear in your communication, clear in your expectations. So, it doesn't mean just show up for a one-on-one without a formula. You want to make sure you— what is the purpose of that meeting? What do you want to cover? And then stick to the format. And obviously, things can get added, but you have to be mindful and purposeful about the point of that meeting. Something that I think happens quite a bit too is if something gets emotional or something's not going well, not just reacting. Being OK with saying, you know what? I want to think about this a little bit. So, can we Come back together to talk about this. I've heard you. I know this is important to you, but let me do some soul searching and we can talk about it some more. Not letting emotional things become more emotional is very important as well, especially when you're just starting to get into that world. So that would be critical. But I think assumptions are the biggest sin we all commit in relationships. So that's the biggest one. And never assuming what someone heard. Having them say back like when you finally come to an agreement, all right, what have you agreed to? What have we both agreed to? You're making sure you're all on the same page is very important as well because you're only going to be spinning your wheels if you think they heard what you said when you didn't really make sure it was clear what you expect.

Right.

And it's so interesting because as people get started with this, it is really easy to break trust. It's really easy to fall back on old behaviors. And so, I think that intentionality piece we talked about earlier really is the key to make absolutely sure. Is there a tool that somebody could use to help test against intentionality? Like in my mind, I'm thinking if you just write down, don't get defensive, or just have something. Is there anything that you would suggest?

Well, something that I've always done and I know I keep going back to the DiSC. But I have key things for myself that I know I can fall into. If I get mad, that is a red flag to me that I have some kind of unexpected— like there's something I haven't done. If I'm mad, it's because I haven't communicated properly. I expect something they didn't realize, or maybe they misheard something from me. But ultimately, there's something there that needs to be talked through. So, everyone has got different red flags, I think, on their own personality. Like my husband shuts down. He's an introvert. I'm an extrovert, obviously. And he just knows that if he's been quiet, for more than 10 minutes in a meeting, then he needs to, you know, realize his voice matters and to speak up. So we all have different things. But I think the key is figuring out what it is that you really need to, what your thing is, or a few things. It's easy with something like the DiSC. But you can also probably figure this out by getting feedback from other people pretty easily. And I literally have it taped above my desk. I have it in several places. You know, remember, if you're mad, You need to solve the problem. So, I think that's a very helpful thing as well. I love this.

Holly, this has been such a great conversation. Could you remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you?

My email is holly@g@hollygcoaching.com. Sorry, holly@hollygcoaching.com. Just Holly, H-O-L-L-Y. And then, our website leaderskills.training is where you can go to sign up for the tips. And also, you can reach out to us through that website as well.

Lovely! And I'll put the, of course, all that content in the show notes. As we wrap up, do you have any last thoughts about what we've talked about today?

I think that it's so important to end every day with what you want to do tomorrow. Think about what are the top 3 things I have to do tomorrow before you end the day so that you come in ready for tomorrow and ready to work with a positive attitude versus being flustered from the moment your day starts. So, that would be my tip that I'd like to leave everyone with.

Thank you so much, Holly. Thank you for doing this. I really appreciate you being here, sharing your knowledge, your passion, and your expertise. It's been brilliant. Thanks for doing this.

Thank you. I appreciate you having me on. It was wonderful.

If you have any questions about today's episode, or you'd like a complimentary 30-minute brainstorming session with you and your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is in the show notes. It's the one that's marked meetwith.marchaine.com. Pretty convenient, right? meetwith.marchaine.com. As always, I am at your service. And if you haven't done so yet, please make sure you subscribe to this podcast. That way, you'll get the notification each week when I bring you experts like Holly. And please, if you're really up against the wall and you just don't know what your next step is, reach out to Holly. Make a connection. Ask questions. I'm sure she's there to serve you and to make sure that you get better as well. Thank you so much for joining me today. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception. See you next week!