Dare To Build an Intentional Culture | Mark O'Donnell

Whether there's lots and lots of learning for visionaries, lots of peer groups, lots of learning, lots of books, there's lots of ways that people can learn to become a better visionary. But in the context of Rocket Fuel, there's very few places where they can go to learn how to be a great puzzle piece to an integrator, which I think that's the special place that EOS and Rocket Fuel hold in the world to say, hey, you can grow your company to places that you never thought possible. You can create a world in your vision. That seemingly impossible thing that you have in your head can become a reality, but it requires you to change a little bit. It requires you to have that relationship with a person who fills your gaps on what it is you don't want to do or can't do, so that you can be free to do what you do best.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Rocket Fuel Podcast, where visionary and integrator duos from entrepreneurial companies share a behind the scenes look at their relationship. These amazing leaders blend their unique skills to create Rocket Fuel. I'm your host, Mark C. Winters, co author of Rocket Fuel and an expert EOS implementer. Today, I'm pleased to bring you a special bonus episode. In it, I talk with Mark o', Donnell, visionary and CEO at EOS Worldwide. He's authored a new book, Dare to Build an Intentional Culture, which he co wrote with EOS Worldwide's integrator Kelly Knight and expert EOS implementer CJ Debay. The book comes out this April, and today we're talking about the role the visionary integrator duo plays in your team's hitting 80% strong in six key components of EOS. Mark challenges visionaries to be honest with themselves when using the tools to find the right integrator match. And as you'll hear him say today, it's worth it. We're starting the show by talking about the surprising results Mark got from a survey he did with EOS implementers. In the survey, he asked about how many visionary integrator duos are achieving a successful partnership. Here we go. Hey, everybody, and welcome to a special edition of the Rocket Fuel Podcast. I am thrilled today to be joined by Mark o', Donnel, who is the visionary of EOS Worldwide. A friend of mine, he's been an EOS implementer for years and so he knows a lot, he's seen a lot, he's done a lot, and he's talked to a lot of people about what we're going to be talking about today, which is how the visionary integrator structure really has a place in the world and how EOS worldwide is thinking about that and what opportunities there are to actually advance the cause even further than we've done to date. So Mark, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me, Mark.

Yeah, my pleasure. I'm looking forward. We're going to kind of freestyle today, so we may be all over the place, so hopefully our listeners kind of hang on for the ride. But to start, I'd like to flip it to you and get you to set a little context for us of kind of where Rocket Fuel fits in terms of the strategy for EOS worldwide.

Yeah, so our strategy is been really, really simple. And we call it the three legs of the stool. You can think of it as a flywheel. And so it starts with books writing great books that are immediately actionable, implementable by the entrepreneurial world. And if we sell a bunch of books, that's going to lead to implementers and people wanting to become implementers, wanting to help companies get what they want from their businesses using eos. And then the third leg of the stool is the web platform where it's been a blog. And of course we're launching EOS1 to sort of shore up that third leg of the stool. And the more visitors we have to that web platform, the more books we sell, the more books we sell, the more visitors to that web platform, so forth and so on. And it's a self perpetuating model. So that's been our strategy and continues to be. And Rocket Fuel is to me a flywheel extension of the implementer community. It is run by implementers, it's a concept. Well, it's also in the books, of course, but really the masterclass and the Rocket fuel community in general is really just an extension of that flywheel. And so for us it is in the top four priorities. Because what we realize is that man, if we could create a world in which 80% or more of our clients are experiencing that VI duo that works, that rocket fuel that puts a dent in the universe just as much as anything else that we do. And so it's a really high priority for us to figure that out.

Of course, I love hearing that. And something we talked about recently is you went off on a little fact finding mission to see sort of how we're doing in terms of penetrating the world with that VI structure. And if you would give a little background on what led you to start asking the questions you were asking. And then let's get into kind of.

What you Learned, Sure. So I was having dinner with a fellow entrepreneur who runs a group of entrepreneurs who run on EOs. And the idea of having an integrator to most visionary is really catnip. I mean, it is just like this mythical creature that's going to come take away all the things I don't want to do, so I can go do whatever I want to do, and the business is going to keep growing and humming along. And so we were having that conversation that what was going on in the group to say, you know, it's sort of an unfulfilled promise that I can find my VI match, my integrator match, because most of them in the group are visionaries. And I started to reflect upon my experience working with my clients. I worked with nearly a hundred clients myself, and if I had to match up and put a number to the number of really great VI duos, it would be a very low percentage of my clients that actually experienced that. I did have some that were great, but they were in the wrong seat. So the integrator was really in the visionary seat. The visionary is really an integrator seat. And we just sort of let that slide because that's the way they wanted it. But they were creating rocket fuel in that structure. And so I decided to pull the implementer community. And I asked them three questions. The first question, most of your clients experience rocket fuel 80% or more, then 50, 50. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. And then less than 10% of your clients experience that VI duo, that work that creates rocket fuel. And Most implementers, over 50% of implementers say that less than 10% of their clients that they've ever had, which represents thousands of companies really, truly experienced that VI duo. And it was about 45%. It was 50, 50, and it was only 1.6% who said 80% or more of my clients experience rocket fuel. And when I had the conversation, it turns out that it's probably zero out of the current implementer community, where 80% or more, because it was just an accidental click. So that's where we kind of landed with that poll, which was shocking, but it also represents a tremendous opportunity. Tremendous opportunity. Out of the implementers who responded to our poll, quite literally, Xero has had a situation where most of their clients, 80% or more, are experiencing great VI duos. So while those results were shocking in a lot of ways, it represented what my experience as an implementer was. And it also represents a ridiculous opportunity to say, hey, let's flip that conversation where it is the exception. You don't have a vi duo. That works versus the rule.

Yeah, so. And you shared those results with me, and I was, what? Shocked? Because that is not my experience at all. And I didn't participate in your survey. And in fact, you know, just to, you know, manage the day, what I think you had a 15% response rate, something like that. So it was a sample, but it wasn't everybody kind of chiming in on that. And so you sort of inspired me to take a look at what was going on in my own world with my clients. And so I went back and I took a look. You're interested in what I found?

I'm afraid now.

Don't be afraid, Mark. It's okay. It's okay. This is our safe space. So I went back, I looked at, you know, I've got 12 active clients at, you know, this snapshot in time. So I looked at them, and I went back to, like, the four most recent graduating clients and kind of did a little bit of math. And so here's what I found. One of the first questions I asked was, all right, how many of these clients are at 80% or better on the org checkup? You know, they're doing pretty well, and actually 92% of them were doing pretty well. So they're strong on the six key components, the average growth index. So think about that as beginning revenue, ending revenue over a period of time. Whatever you're looking at is 219. So they're growing like crazy. They're doing very well in that sense. The percentage of Those clients, the 16 that had a visionary integrator duo in place. You want to guess?

I'm going to guess it's 100%.

It is 100%. It is 100%. The average months it took them to decide, okay, we're going to put an integrator in place and put an integrator in place. How many months you think it took them on average, across the 16, nine months, 5.5. Which is a little misleading because in those numbers, there's one that took five years, there's one that took 15 months. So a year and a quarter. All of the rest of them did it in the first quarter. Okay, so right out of the gate, they filled that seat. This is a question that people ask about, and you and I have talked about. How many integrators do you think they had to try to get to the one they're on now?

Well, I mean, with 5.5 months, you would make the assumption that they were Already in the company, or they got it right the first time.

So it was 1.6 integrators. They had to try. Okay. And a little distribution there. Nine of them are still on their first integrator. Five of them are on their second. One is on their third, one is on their fourth. Those companies that are on their third and their fourth, those may have the strongest visionary integrator duos of all. Interesting. Right. So they didn't get it right the first time, but they learned and tried again. Learned and tried again. And so they got stronger as they went. Percentage that were an internal hire, 75%. Okay. So 75% of them, it was someone inside on the team already somewhere that they identified and put in that seat. Maybe not at first, but that's kind of where they ended up. Or that's where they are now. And then how many of them have a strong duo? Okay, so the way I thought about this was in reference to, like, the rocket fuel power index integrated report card and just kind of how it's working, creating that rocket fuel like we talk about. And 75% of them, I would consider high on the strength of their duo. The ones that aren't, there's a couple that are. It's just. It's like you said, they're in the wrong seat. There's just something that's not right. They're kind of sort of doing it right, but not really the way that we see it can be done better. But they're working at it. They're making slow progress. And then one of them is a situation where the client recently fired their integrator. They just weren't getting it done. They've got somebody else new in there. That, frankly, is going to be awesome. And it just takes a little time to get up and go. So there's the other end of the spectrum. You identified the errant click sample. That's like, no, I don't have any. And then in my world, that just doesn't compute because it's like all of mine are like that. So when you hear that, what does that mean, make you think?

It makes me think a few things. How many clients have you worked with since the beginning?

60.

60. And so that sample's out of 60.

This sample is out of the most recent column. 16 most. You know, it's my active ones. And then the batch after that. I'll take this analysis deeper, but that's what I did for this discussion.

Yeah. So I guess my first thing. And you and I have been in strategic coach for a really long time. And Dan Sullivan, his paraphrased quote, which is that our eyes only see in our ears only hear what our brains are looking for. You are a co author of Rocket Fuel. You've been running this. This has been your life for the last five years.

Longer than that, six years, More than that, seven years. We're coming up on nine years probably.

Yep, nine years. Right. So I think that there's certainly a possibility that you have this straight bias. I'm going to select clients. This is my focus when I work with the clients. And I think for myself, it's never been a primary focus to find and create really strong VI duos within my clients. My objective was always to get them 80% strong in the six key components by hook or crook. Right. So did they really create rocket fuel that a VI duo could get there? Were they growing fast? My average is 40% growth over those hundred clients, which isn't terrible over 10 years. But I didn't purposely and meticulously help them create world class VI duos. It wasn't my focus. My focus was simply six key components. Get the tools rolling, get them growing, following the basics. And what I realize through our conversations is that I'm probably the representative of most implementers, which is probably representative most clients as well. There are some groups, networking groups, entrepreneurial groups, where the only book they have ever read is Rocket Fuel. And so then you have that orientation of that group to finding a VI duo and they're less interested in eos as a system. They're like, just give me this magical mythical creature so I can go be free. And that's what I want. So I think the real opportunity here is to take that focus, that true understanding that a visionary is not a CEO. And never shall the two meet. We take on those titles. But when you think of a CEO, they're really that VI combo. They are usually in a corporate, they're not particularly freedom seeking. So most people who are calling themselves CEOs, they're really visionaries who need an integrator, who need that second in command. While they might still take that outside title as CEO so the world understands their hierarchy position, most of us don't do the work of a truly textbook defined CEO and have a second in command, an integrator who is doing the detailed management, the execution, making all those ideas become real. So I think that just represents a great opportunity to get people understanding that you're probably not going to get 80% strong. Here's what I will say too, with My sample size is that with some form of VI duo, my definition of strong might be different than others. Definition of strong. We didn't have the measurement tools in those days, but even the ones that were kind of flip flopped in the seats, they hit 80% strong and they stayed there. They hit 80% each of the six key components. They had longevity, they could stay there, they grew and it worked really well. The ones that didn't have that really I would consider them, they either didn't have a great integrator, where they had a poor one, where they were kind of cycling through a bunch of them, they could hit 80% strong in each of the six key components. They just couldn't stay there because most visionaries are like, yeah, let's go do it and we'll get it done in a quarter. But then it's boring after that and let's move on.

So let me play that back to you. What I hear you saying is having a strong visionary integrator duo correlates directly with the ability to achieve and stay at 80% or plus strong on the 6C components. Believe that's true?

Oh, for sure. I think that's just an undeniable fact.

Okay, interesting. We're going to go down a couple of different paths here. So we're going to talk to and think about, you know, our clients, the visionaries. You know, there may be implementers listening to this too, but let's think about the visionaries for a little bit and just stuff that we see. So you've talked about your poll, you've talked about, you know, they see the promise and then they're frustrated because they just can't find them. They can't get it together and make it happen in a straightforward way. You're hearing these samples from different groups out there that sort of have a lot of visionary entrepreneurs in them. And so this frustration in the world seems to be real. And it sounds like the root of the frustration is, you know, if they do find them, they're weak. So we get weak integrators right where they're, you know, they're not prepared. Maybe we make a bad hire externally because we, you know, don't follow the process very well. We're not disciplined in how we go find them. Or maybe we just do kind of a quick feel from within because, you know, the visionary is in pain and they're anxious. Right. They see this thing, they see the promise, the catnip, as you called it. And so they are not patient. They're the opposite of Patient, and they move too quickly. Does that sound kind of like what the foundation is of the frustration that you're hearing?

It is. And it is a little bit like blame the integrator. But the reality is they're just unequally yoked. And I use the example. I had a client who was in Pennsylvania near Amish country. So they're an Amish client, and they're like, a visionary integrator has to be equally yoked. I'm like, okay, that's interesting. I'm not a farmer, don't spend much time with oxen. They're like, well, if you have an ox that can pull 1500 pounds by themselves, and you put them next to an ox that can only pull 800 pounds, you would think, you know, 800 plus 1500, we got 2,300 pounds. That's what we can pull. But the reality is that together they can only pull about a thousand. So they're just unequally yoked. But if you have two that can pull 1500, it's not 3000. It's like 4500. That when they are together and they're equally yoked, man, they can, you know, plow some fields in a fast way and go deep and everything else. So that's what I would say. It's not weak integrators as a blanket statement, it's unequally yoked. Visionary integrator duos.

Yeah. We've got a tool that I've taught in the integrator Mastery forum. That's the leadership team power meter. And basically it builds on the equally yoked concept. Right. For a leadership team, and talks about how, you know, if you've got a team of five and three are rock stars and they're totally focused on their seat and they can run super fast, but you've got one person that's spread over three seats, and, you know, they can't run full speed in any of them. It just. It brings the whole team down. So being aware of that and certainly at the helm with that visionary integrator duo, having them equally yoked, where we can go as fast as you want, is essential. So, you know, hiring is an issue. Finding them, then once you're together, getting the structure right, managing that relationship, and we talk about maximizing the power of the visionary integrator duo and all the things that you can do to do that just doesn't happen. Right?

It doesn't. And I would add to that unequal yoking in. I've been a member of the flow Research collective for a while with Steven Kotler and a lot of research into flow. And flow is achieved really on an individual level. Right. You can get into flow yourself, which is really marked by a 500% increase in your productivity or the group's productivity. So it's individual, it's interpersonal between two people and it's group. And one of the key blockers to achieving a flow state between an interpersonal relationship is pacing the speed at which one person is moving versus the other. So if the visionary is like, go, go, go. And the integrator is like, no, thank you, I'm good. I need three days to think about this. Their pacing is unequal and they won't achieve a flow state. Interpersonal flow state. That is really, to me, the key output of rocket fuel. I think that 500% increase. It's research backed. That's what can be accomplished. Pacing is the number one flow blocker. And there's all sorts of other flow blockers too, but that's kind of like one of the top ones.

So this reminds me of what I've heard you and Kelly Knight, integrator for us Worldwide, your integrator in this sense, talk about frequency. And again, it's all these things that we need to make it work and maximize the power. Getting from where you start, which isn't going to be there, it's never there. And moving that direction and you're never going to be done getting there. Right. It's like mastery. It's a journey. It's just you go on and on and on forever. Because we've got the individual mastery components of mastering the craft of being an integrator, mastering the craft of being a visionary, and then mastering the relationship.

Yeah. And I think relationship is the key. If one person wants to go faster, the person needs to be able to go faster with them. If they want to go slower, they got to go slower. And whoever's in pole position can change and should change depending on the particular topic, depending on the person's unique talents that they're bringing to the table. And that deferential treatment, I always use the example. My grandmother was a huge Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire fan. And she would always say, well, Ginger's the best dancer in the world. And of course, you know, everyone thinks Fred Stare, like he was just the absolute best in the world. She's like, no, no, she did everything he did backwards and in high heels.

Right?

Then you are like, oh, okay, got it. That is undeniably true.

Yeah, no doubt. Perspective. So When I think about where we're trying to get to, and we want to get to a place where truly most EOS implement, most EOS implementers could say that most, you know, or almost all 80% or more of their clients have a strong visionary integrator duo. You know, I've given you data that shows that that's where I am. You know, you talked about why that may be different. For me, we want to get to a place where we can get to that faster and with fewer false starts because, you know, it's painful when you make a false start. You try and you get the wrong one, and, you know, it costs money and there's real people pain that goes on there. And so if we can get smarter at getting better at doing it right the first time or sooner closer to the first time, so it doesn't take four, if it takes two or one and a half, that's certainly better than four. And if we can get more clients then to have strong visionary integrator duos and strong on the 60 components, then that's just better. That gets us more of all the things that you and I love to make happen, which is, you know, more people living the EOS life and more entrepreneurs out there making the special impact they're going to make on the world. And sometimes they're held back from when they don't have all the pieces in place. So when I think about. You mentioned one of these kind of a overarching question. So why do some clients solve that strong visionary integrator duo question faster than others from the client's perspective? And I think the best quote that captures it for me is the one that you mentioned from Dan, which is, you know, our eyes only see and our ears only hear that which our brain is looking for. And so it's sort of that expectation in the world that it's possible I'm going to find it. And so here we go. Does this help me get there? Does this help me get there? And you spot those things. And then the other question, which is also a Dan one, is not a question but a statement, is the realization that all progress begins by telling the truth. So recognizing, where are you now? Where are you really? Are you rushing? Are you not ready? We've got our four readiness factors that we talk about. Are you approaching it wrong? If you're not able to do it, being really honest with yourself, what's really going on there? And I think there's a lot of different things that can be the answer to those questions that People get tripped up on, right? They're hiring too fast, they structure it wrong, it's the wrong person. They're not following a structure or a process to approach it. So I think those are a lot of things that we've kind of covered to kind of. We've got to figure out ways to bridge. We've got to figure out ways to educate better and support better if we're going to get from where we are to where we want to be. What would you add to that?

I would kind of address just a couple things. I think we want people to stay at it because we know what's on the other side for them and we need to really do anything and everything that we can do to increase the probability of getting it right the first time. It's not going to be perfect, it's never going to be perfect. But we got to get it right the first time to the best of our ability. The idea that someone can churn and burn through four integrators, chances are they're the problem. Reality is, as you said, and that truth telling is holding up a mirror and saying, you know, why am I not really open to having an integrator? Why am I really not trusting who it is I hire to delegate fully to them where I can be free to do the things that I believe I was put on this earth to do. Oftentimes that's really scary, right? Like I don't really want a great integrator because then that means I'm going to have to be my authentic self and I don't have to make a. I've removed all the excuses to letting go, to really growing the organization, all that bogged down stuff that the integrator does, all the detailed management work that we all say we don't like to do but do anyway. We just use those as excuses to not unlock our true selves in the world. Because that's scary as crap and you don't want to do it. I mean, that's part of the truth that people are facing. Like, oh, I don't, you know, so, you know, you kind of dig in and it's just a really great way. Well, I don't have time to do that. I don't have time to go do the talk or do the. Whatever it might be because, well, I'm just bogged down by the stuff. So I think that that progress, there's a lot of, you know, holding up the mirror and saying, what about me as a visionary is not receptive to an integrator and it's okay to say, I don't want one, I want to just be bogged down. And so stop. I would just. Any visionary who's have the, you know, kind of rolling through all these integrators, not finding the right fit, at some point, I would just say stop kidding yourself. You're not a freedom seeking entrepreneur. You don't have the courage to be your authentic self and give it up or don't and just tell the truth about it. So that would be my kind of number one observation that I see quite often, because it is a relationship. You have to be your authentic self, warts and all, and have those open and honest conversations. Like I'm holding on to this because I'm afraid if I don't have this to make an excuse about, then I'm gonna have to step up. And I don't really have the juice to step up right now.

Yeah, the courage, right? Because it is scary. So that fits right into when you think about the rocket fuel process, kind of the three steps. Crystallize, connect and maximize. You know, crystallizes understanding the structure and making that decision. Is this right for me? Can this help me? And that's it. That's holding up the mirror and getting real with yourself on whether you're ready to want to, willing to do the stuff that's required to pursue this structure. And if not, great. Nobody's making you, you don't have to. It's okay, right? Everybody is their own person and gets to choose. And then in the middle, how we go about the connection, how we're smarter about that. Lot of honesty required there too. The first step of our connector process is really taking a deep look at the visionary inside themselves to kind of define the edges of their own puzzle piece, as we call it. And you know, if you lie to yourself about that, you're just going to miss and you're just going to create more pain. You're in pain right now. You lie to yourself about who you really are, where you really are, and you make a move you shouldn't make and then that's pain too. So you got to be honest. All progress begins by telling the truth. It's true. And then once we do get connected, now we're in this maximized phase. And so there's a pretty robust structure there to take that relationship and grow it up and evolve it and make it strong and test it and challenge it and talk about all the things you're going to talk about. Again, being honest with each other about what's going on and how we can make it better. So there's certainly a very strong thread of honesty that flows through that whole process. So love that. All right, so let me try something with you. I wrote down a list of things that I believe are true. And so I'd like to play them to you one at a time and then I want to get your reaction. Some of them, you may go, Mark, 100% agree with that. Some of you go, you're insane. That's absolutely not true. Some of them, it may take you in some way that you can make it more real and make it more sense to people that are listening to this. But let's just kind of start with the first one. I believe a strong visionary integrator duo is equally important to being 80% strong on the six key components of the OS model.

I don't think that's true.

Say why.

I think it's more important.

Okay, okay. So you think it's not equally. I'm going to change my sheet here. It's more important. Say why?

I think it's more important because if you have that equally yoked VI duo and you've got a free visionary to push the envelope on what it is that you're doing as a business and that integrator equally yoked, different capability, equally yoked, they can put together their own system to make that vision a reality, while EOS makes it faster, better, cheaper, the right VI duo will make that a reality. So if we look throughout history, which you talk about in Rocket Fuel, I think a great example, I've recently read the biography by Walter Isaacson on Elon Musk. He's got Gwen Stromwell at SpaceX. Now he has Linda Yaccarino, I think her name is AT X. And he's got the same thing at Tesla. They don't run on EOs, as far as we know. As far as I know. And they're the most valuable companies on the planet, so I don't think it's deniable.

Interesting observation on this one. You and I were talking. You mentioned the friend that talk to you about the entrepreneurial community. That first sort of triggered this. Hey, there's something not right. There's something missing here. There's something that's not happening. And it just, you know, coincidence I happened to have dinner with that same person last night and I tested that first one on him and he answered it exactly like you did. So I love that. All right, number two, a strong visionary integrator duo is essential to achieve and maintain 80% or greater on the EOS six key components.

I believe that's 100% accurate. Visionaries tend to be up and down emotional. Rare is the visionary who stays focused and doesn't get bored of detailed stuff over time. EOS as well. So I think EOS becomes stickier, more impactful when you have a great VI duo. I would also say that when we think about the business can change and does change over time. And Kelly and I also talk about this for people listening. Kelly Knight is my integrator match and we talk about that at some point in this business we might not be the right VI duo. I might not be the right visionary, she might not be the right integrator. Both of us at the same time might be outgrown by the business. And so we're always looking at our capacity to learn and grow with the business. And so we're always taking a lens of kind of that three piece puzzle each of us and the business fit and its growth trajectory and stage the type. I mean, as I mentioned earlier, we are currently building out the Web platform of EOS1. So that third leg of the stool, we're building it out. We haven't built, run, grown a SaaS business before, but now we have to become that. And of course we've our first go around had a high tuition, but at some point that might be true for one or both of us. And so I think that that is absolutely true. To kind of hold that line, you have to have that three part fit, not just VI duo but with the business and maintain it over time.

Right. And when we think about maintaining 80% or better on the six key components in my little research project that I did before our conversation, one of the clients, that is, I looked at clients that have been with me for more than a year and where they were on the organizational checkup and one of them, really the only one of them that was below 80% was one that had just changed their integrator. Now before they had actually been above 80%. So it was kind of the thing where it's this. If you make a change, if it's not right, if you don't stick with it, if you're not persistent, it can come back down. So just exactly I double down on what you said there. All right, next one. And you've used a word a couple of times so far that let's see if this one hits home with you or not. Great integrators actually do exist and can be developed or further developed without a Doubt. So you've used the word mythical a couple of times. So when you say that, it makes me think or it makes people think that, you know, this one's not true. So you're saying it is true. So they're not mythical creatures.

I don't think they're mythical creatures. I think the perspective is that they're mythical creatures. To find your exact match, there it is. It's not that they're out there. We see them. Right? We see them. They do exist out in the wild. It's just like, oh man, I want that too. And I can't seem to get that for me. Yeah.

And part of the problem is a math problem. Right. So, you know, we found when we originally wrote Rocket fuel, it's a 4 to 1 ratio. Right. So you've got four visionary types for one integrator type. And just because it's 4 to 1 doesn't mean that that one would be a good fit. For each of those four integrators, there's the matching process that the fit that has to happen. So for the visionaries, you can't just get away with all the crazy crap that you want to try and you can't be bad, you can't be mean, you can't be all the stuff that makes somebody not want to with you. So back to the look in the mirror thing. You can choose to do that if you want, but it may cost you the opportunity to have a great integrator in a relationship with you. Yeah.

And I think if you want to grow and scale a company, you must have an integrator and the odds are not in your favor. Not every company wants to go and grow and create a big, huge, fast growing company. People kind of have lifestyle businesses and they just want to keep status quo or whatever, and that might be fine. But if you want to grow and scale, the odds aren't in your favor to find integrator and you need them. So get to work.

Agreed. All right, next one may be an obvious one. Great visionaries actually do exist and can be developed or further developed.

Absolutely.

How do you see visionaries being further developed?

Well, I think whether there's lots and lots of learning for visionaries, lots of peer groups, lots of learning, lots of books, there's lots of ways that people can learn to become a better visionary. But in the context of Rocket Fuel, there's very few places where they can go to learn how to be a great puzzle piece to an integrator, which I think that's the special place that Eos and rocket fuel hold in the world to say, hey, you can grow your company to places that you never thought possible. You can create a world in which your vision, that seemingly impossible thing that you have in your head, can become a reality. But it requires you to change a little bit. It requires you to have that relationship with a person who fills your gaps on what it is you don't want to do or can't do, so that you can be free to do what you do best.

Yeah, well said. Next one great visionary integrator. Duos actually do exist and can be developed or further developed. So we talked about each of the individual pieces being real, not being mythical creatures. And so the great duo, where it comes together and works, do they exist?

Absolutely. We see it with Eos or without Eos. I'm in one myself. Because where we are in this organization, as we're growing, Kelly and I are very quick to understand where our development needs are, and we work at that same pacing. I never feel frustrated by not being able to go from that relationship perspective. Of course, there's always frustrations, like, man, I wish we could just wave a wand and, you know, have a thousand people do what I'm asking. But that kind of just takes time. But we get there, and no, I don't think there's. There's no perfect VI duo, and there's a lot of friction there, but it takes friction to take flight.

So talk for a second. And I've interviewed you and Kelly on the podcast in the past, and there's lots of stories that we won't get into all of it, but just at a high level. You guys have been together as visionary integrator for about how long now?

Three and a half years.

Three and a half years. So what's your sense of the progress that your relationship has made in that time?

Well, I understand her unique abilities better than before. And where there's. I'll call it some overlap, we know exactly where that is, and one of us will defer in the flow, not even really thinking about it. We know where we are deficient and we know how to solve them. We know how to leverage the team. And it kind of is like. So I grew up playing football mostly with my brother, and when we would play, you know, backyard football, and I didn't have to talk to him, I would just look at him and he would do exactly what I wanted to do and we'd score a bunch of points and had a blast doing it. But I never even had to say what it is. And when it didn't happen, man, we would fight like, what are you doing? You do the same thing every time, and now you're not doing it. Like, what's your problem? And so it kind of has become like that. We don't even have to really talk about it. It's sort of like, I can predict and so can she, and so we can do the dance.

So it's that connection that's born of thousands of reps. Right? You just know. It's just a. In a sports analogy, it's the look or the signal or whatever. And you just know. You're on the same page.

Just know. Yep.

Love that. All right, next one. Integrators actually solve issues for the client, issues for the visionary. Having one in place actually solves issues.

Oh, yeah. I mean, I want to start by saying most of the issues get created by that tension that a visionary create. So if you're a founder, entrepreneur, you're like, hey, I want to go. We're going here. We're doing this. The place, the distance between where you are and where you want to go. That's where all the issues exist. They only exist because there's a distance between your vision and where you are sitting today. So I think we just start with that as a general fact. And so what's the role of the integrator? Well, the role of the integrator is to make your vision a reality. That means their role is to solve all the obstacles, all the barriers that are preventing you from accomplishing your goal. So Ryan Holiday, great author, wrote a book called Obstacle is the Way. The obstacle is 100% the way, and integrator is your bulldozer.

Love that. Love that. We talk about integrator, roi, math, and the exercise of going through your issues list again, many of which are born from that tension of I wish it was like this. And the wish list is another one where the visionary sees how it could be, and then there's a reality of how it is right now. And then there's all these things that are missing in between there. And just thinking about, all right, which ones could they solve? How much would that be worth to me? And play that against the expense, which is easy to see for what, you know, bringing a great integrator into the.

Mix is an infinite return.

It's going to bring. Right. What you. I think you had a quote in a LinkedIn post or something the other day, which was, what price freedom, Right? And integrators actually solve issues. So we're agreed on that. Okay, the next one. Be curious. Your reaction. So I think you've seen the tool I built called the integrator engagement matrix that looks at how much time in a week the integrator is actually in the seat or how much of their bandwidth they're actually bringing to sitting in that integrator seat. That's one axis and the other axis is really how engaged they are in what the true role of an integrator is. You know, are they doing all the things that we talk about in the power index and on the integrator report card that, you know, a true integrator would do if they were really filling that seat? And what we see is, you know, you've got some people that they're full time employees of the company and they're sitting in the integrator seat, but you know, that's kind of a tenth of what they do because they're also sitting in the ops seat and they're also sitting in the finance seat and they're also on the sales team and they're doing all these other things that take their bandwidth. So they're somewhere way low in terms of how much of their horsepower is actually being brought to bear. And then we've got people that are fractional is a term that's out there in the world. And you know, really I think of it more as part time. It's something less than full time with the company. And some of those people are engaging at a lower level where it's just kind of project management or administrative stuff. And some of those people are engaging at a very high level where they really are closer to exactly what we define when we talk about the seat. So the question, the truth that I wrote down on this one is that a part time, great integrator, so highly engaged, even though it's less than full time, less than 100% of their horsepower is greater than a full time week integrator. So somebody who, yeah, maybe they are there five days a week, but they're just not filling the seat by that.

On the surface, I agree with that. Given the context. I would change the context though. Tell me how, because I think it's really about is the vision becoming a reality. So I think let's just use kind of a business that I've owned, which is an H VAC company. You got a group of clients, you want to serve them really well. You just want to serve your zip code best you can. A part time integrator would work really great there if they're engaged. So yes, that is true. But the visionary tension is very low too. And so you don't really have to, you know, what is engagement? Well, probably two hours a week, like just not much if you have an operations person. Right. So like the pure integrator seat, a couple hours a week could be just fine. Now if they're weak, they're just not in the right seat. And so that kind of just discounts them altogether. But I would kind of plotted out in a visionary need versus integrator engagement. Like, what's the intersection of those two things? Because if you got a strong visionary and you got a full time great integrator that only has a certain amount of capacity to actually execute, you're still going to have a gap and it's just not going to be enough. So full time plus full time still, you know, less than 1. And if you think about it as in those terms, but so generally, yes, I agree with the statement. I would just change it to say on the vertical axis is probably visionary intensity versus integrator engagement.

Yeah. So engagement is just the word that I use. But the way it's defined in my brain is given the definition of the missing integrator puzzle piece or the integrator puzzle piece. Okay. Which combines the visionary's needs. So how the visionary fits and it combines the firm's needs. So whether it's an H Vac company or a high tech company or whatever, however that's defined, are they fully meeting that or are they not? That's the level. So I think you're right on.

Yeah, absolutely agree with that. Yeah.

All right, next one. Visionary integrator power drives everything and it can always be further developed.

Yeah, absolutely. Define power for me. Just so I'm not just 10. Quick starting the answer.

Yeah. So you think about the rocket fuel power index and the eight different mindsets on there. So it's, are we staying on the same page? Are we, are we aligned? Do we share the vision? All those kinds of things that are necessary in order to really optimize the.

Power of the duo can always be further developed. You know, Kelly and I do this every quarter we fill out the index. There's always a couple things that can use improvement and they're not always the same things like, oh, you know, kind of dropped off here. You know, it's not necessarily whack a mole, but our perception of what a perfect score looks like increases as we go. So I'm generally a, you know, hey, this is a 12 and it's gotta stay a 12. But my definition of 12 goes up.

Right. It's kind of like the. I'm reminded of the team health exercise we do with clients in our annuals every year. Right.

And checkup, too.

Right. And yeah. So the questions are the same. Exactly the same every time. So what's changed? Well, the team's changed. The experience of that team has changed. Right.

Standards increased.

Yeah. So we've tasted what great looks like a little bit. And so now we want more of it, and we want to hold to that standard. All right, next one. The visionary integrator match won't always be right the first time.

Well, it wouldn't be amazing if I could say that that was not true. Well, of course that's true. I don't think we're doing the world a service if we say you should expect it to not work out the first time, because, again, your eyes and ears only pick up what your brain's looking for. So if you're looking for the first one to fail, probably. But, yeah, that's generally true.

Yeah. And I think it's about having clear expectations going in. You know what you want, and there's a lot of things that you control to increase the probability that you get it right the first time. And so that really has to be the focus. Are you doing the deep work on yourself? Are you really being honest? Are you doing the interview process, the hiring process, thoroughly, so that you're really sticking to what you said you were looking for and not just doing the typical visionary thing, which is Mark and I sit down and we talk and we get along great. And so this person's just like me. They would be awesome. And that's the last thing they need, is another person in there that's just like them. Right. So, yeah, unfortunately, I think that's where we're at today. You know, Gino and I in the beginning really concocted this shared vision of the scanner where we can run a scanner over a visionary. And genetically, basically, we take that and it spits out, you know, boom. Here are the five best matches for this particular visionary. And maybe we'll get there someday, 20, 50, maybe we're there. But today we got to just focus on the things we can really control.

Right. Which would be visionary readiness to accept an integrator. I think that's probably the biggest indicator of future success.

It is huge. It is huge. And being honest about it. Okay, number 10 on my list. If the visionary integrator match falls short, it's worth trying again until you get it right.

It is Worth trying again until you get it right. As long as you fully understand why it didn't work the first time and you are telling the truth about your role in that not working. Because I've seen plenty of clients have a realization that the integrator is not working. They're going to switch them out, new one, and they basically take no responsibility for that relationship not working. And I'm like, eh, we're not a marriage counselor. But, you know, pretty sure it takes two here, right?

And as you said earlier, being honest with themself about if this is really what they want to do, if the visionary integrator structure really is the next step along their path to where they're trying to go, because nobody has to do it. But depending on where you want to go, it certainly can increase your odds. When I look back at kind of the mistakes I see, and we've kind of talked about the three phases, you know, it all starts at the beginning with being honest with yourself and deciding that this is a structure that you want and then approaching that hiring process, that matching process, thoughtfully focusing on the things that you can control to increase the probability that you get it right, decrease the probability that you make a mistake the first time or maybe even the second time. You know, again, I've got a client that it took four times to get it right. But you ask him and he'd been on the podcast and man, he wouldn't change a thing in terms of sticking with it and just continuing to hammer. I mean, there's been tremendous pain, but now that it's right, everything is unlocking and everything is doing exactly what he wanted and more. I mean, it's really exceeding what he thought was possible. So that's so cool to see if somebody can be persistent enough to stick with it. Anything else you would add to the whole realm of the visionary and what we're seeing there and what's true for them, then I want to kind of change gears. If there's nothing else on that one.

I just had a couple questions about the person with the four tries. What do you think about their readiness to accept the first three? What changed in them that made the fourth work?

Okay, so the first was internal and it was just kind of, oh, this person's there, that's them. And the experience of trying to work in the structure uncovered a lot of things we talk about. Eos is like turning the lights on, right? You can't hide anymore. If there's somebody here who doesn't enjoy and embrace accountability, they're probably not going to hang around for very long because they're going to hate it because that's all this does. And same is true for that visionary integrated relationship. So that flushed one out second move. Well, okay, they're not here. Let me go look external and go external and make a higher. Kind of thoughtfully, kind of quickly, I think still not entirely clear on what they were looking for and got somebody in that just wasn't a great fit and just kind of missed it. Probably rushed it a little bit, maybe weren't entirely honest on a couple of dimensions. So learn that experience. Okay, so it's kind of stacking, right? The lessons are kind of stacking the third one back internal with someone that showed some promise and felt like they could elevate. And this ended up being a. What's a good word for this? It's just the phantom. It's the person who turns out being something completely different than anybody thought they were. And they've just sort of worn a mask with everybody in the organization for a period of time. And then something happens where all that stuff starts to be revealed. And there's core values, things, there's other things. And it's just like, holy smokes. And this happens from time to time, right? Where all of a sudden we think somebody's awesome and they're just showing all the signs publicly that they've got the right stuff. And then, you know, something twists and we see things in a true light. And so that came out here. And so then there's the paranoia that goes with that of, oh, my gosh, if they could fool me, how do I not get fooled again? And so again, I go back to courage and persistence. So this visionary stuck with it and said, you know what? I've got a person over here who I've been elevating. They kind of were buried in the operation. And I kind of go to the plant analogy. They were kind of like a dusty plant set back on a shelf somewhere where they didn't get much light and attention. And he brought them out to, you know, a shelf a little closer to the front. And they got a little more light and they started to bloom and blossom and grow. And then moved them a little closer and the same thing. So you see this kind of pattern with this person person. And they progressed to where he's like, you know what? I think she's it. And brought her into that seat and just nailed it again, stacking the lessons from before of what's required of the structure, what's required of the business. I want to be really sure that this person's not fooling me from a, you know, a core values perspective and being able to grow and fill the space that this integrator seat provides for somebody to grow and expand to fill. So not sure if that directly answers your question, but that's my recount of what I watched happen there.

Yeah, it does. And it brings me to. I'd like to get your opinion on the type of decision hiring an integrator is. I actually have two things in terms of the profile of an integrator that Kelly and I have been kind of noticing, and what really helps with our pacing, that frequency, that amplitude in general. So. But first thing is I had the opportunity to spend time with Annie Duke, who's world poker champion at the Wharton School, and she teaches decision making there. And then there's Jeff Bezos has a position on decision making with two way doors and one way doors. And then I've read something recently that resonated with me. Which decision making is like a hat, a haircut, and a tattoo where you can make some decisions, like putting a hat on, you look in the mirror. Yeah, take that off, no problem. A haircut, well, you can get a bad haircut and, you know, you might look really foolish for a little while, but it's going to grow back, right? It's pretty quick. You know, you can make a joke out of it. It's no problem. Then he goes, tattoo decision where? Man, that thing's on there, and it could be around for a really, really long time. And you're going to look foolish for a really long time. And even if you can kind of try to get it removed, there's still residue. So what type of decision a hat, haircut, or a tattoo is? The first three integrators.

The first three. The first three that somebody is bringing. So not thinking about which one they were in the sequence, I circled haircut. But not just your ordinary weekly haircut or monthly haircut or whatever you do, but like a head shave. A mohawk.

Like, it's gone.

Yeah, a reverse mohawk. It's the thing where, yeah, it's going to be there for a while, and you're going to live with it for a while. And you may catch grief about it for a while, but it's not a tattoo. And so it's not a perfect decision. And it's a challenge for visionaries to overcome getting stuck in. It has to be absolutely perfect. It has to be 100% confidence. It's never going to be 100% confidence. It'S frankly never going to be 100% perfect. And so there's a point where getting started, it's decide. It's decide your move and make it do. Control all the things you can control. Do the work, do the diligence, follow the steps with discipline. But then make the call, make the move and get started. Because back to the example I just walked through. You're going to learn something. If it's a miss, you're going to come out smarter on the other side and then you're going to layer that knowledge and let's see how quick a learner you are to get it right. That's my answer. Haircut.

It's a haircut. All right. And by the way, how to Decide by Annie Duke is a great book if anybody's interested. Also, Clear Thinking by Shane Parrish also maps directly to the IDS process and thinking about the level of impact that you're making and how long you should be taking for those decisions and so forth. So good context to up your IDS game, too.

Yeah, I love that. All right, what's also on your question list?

Oh, yes. So you kind of alluded to to this with some of your questions with learning. Kelly and I both have learner in our top five in StrengthsFinder. And when we think about pacing, both of us, I'm always learning. I'm always trying to get better, always trying to push the needle on what it is that I know. And of course, you quickly realize the older you get and the more you learn, the less you know. And she has the same kind of it's in her top five as well. So we'll read the same books together, we'll push the envelope together and that helps us retain that pacing. We're kind of learning at the same speed most of the time. It's the same type of thing. Sometimes not. But we're both have that in our top five. Any thoughts about that?

So I wonder one, it's an alignment thing. I don't know that it I would think about it as a must have, but more of a nice to have. And I would see it as being a reinforcing function for you. I mean, you kind of articulate it that way where there's something about the shared experience learning being one of those where you're going through something together that reinforces how we're the connective tissue and how we're wired together. And it's, you know, if you and I both go through something like that together, it that communication link that you talked about having with your brother. Right. And now more with Kelly. That just sounds like a great lever to me to help reinforce that. I suspect there are others. I suspect shared experience is the umbrella here and learning experience is one of them. And I know you guys have done things, you know, like go climb a mountain. You've done stuff like that together too. I think that's another version of that as well. And I think they all kind of come back. You know, the learning, the subject matter, some of that comes back, you see it in different ways. And so you turn it into something even more and better because you went through it together. So there's kind of a multiplier dynamic that goes on there too. So reinforcing and multiplying under the umbrella of shared experience would be my thought.

Which is really good for people listening that don't feel like they have their great VI match. They're not there yet. Might be something to explore in terms of strengthsfinder. You know, where's the commonality? Maybe it is shared experience. Maybe you should go climb Mount Whitney. I would recommend it as long as you don't have altitude sickness and have to carry your integrator down a mountain and get a helicopter. But aside from.

Makes it a much better story, though.

Oh, way better story, sort of.

If you're willing to pay the price.

Right.

Let's kind of try to pull this all together. So in terms of particularly for our visionary listeners and you know, the stuff, we've covered a lot of ground here. And so the most important takeaways that we want them to have, the 10 truths that we went through, I think that's a big deal. Each of one of those has something relevant for somebody. For me, the thread of honesty that goes through here, is this what you really want? Are you being really honest in your self assessments as you're going through that connection phase, Are you. As you're getting into the maximized phase, are you leaning on the tools, you know, are you doing the rocket fuel power index? Are you using the integrated report card? Are you taking advantage of the learning programs that we have, you know, which start off as, you know, a simple rocket fuel university that by the way, is free. So you can get on there and take the basic assessments and tons of video content, get in that initial community and then from there, what's right for you. If you're an integrator that wants to become truly great, you go to the integrator masterclass. If you're a visionary that wants your integrator to become truly Great. You, you have them take that. If they are committed to mastering their craft, they become a member of the Integrator Mastery Forum and all these different programs. So taking advantage of those resources that we have, I think is a big deal. What am I missing? What's another key takeaway for a visionary to help solve this epidemic that you identified and got us talking about?

I'd say first, get really, really clear on what it is that you want from your life, from your business. If you want to truly grow and scale a company that makes a difference, makes an impact. Most companies do. But if you want to scale and grow one, just take it off and at the same time experience freedom. And freedom, I mean, the ability to live in your top left quadrant on, delegate and elevate. You only do things that you love to do and are great at. Get really clear on what it is you want if you want to have that level of freedom, if you want to scale and grow. And then second step, once you've got really clear on that, is to really think about how open you are to an integrator. It is that honesty with yourself. It's the same thing you said, Mark, is it takes two. You're not going to just take this pile of stuff that you'd love to get rid of and plop it on to someone and they're going to magically be able to wave a wand and it disappear. You're going to have to do some work. You're going to have to do some work on yourself. And then you find that puzzle piece and it's a persistent relationship. It's not, you know, you can't just go to Costa Rica for five months. Although sometimes that's helpful. If you disappear and your integrator can actually work without you adding new things, sometimes that's helpful. So know what you want. Self assess. Are you open to getting what you want? And Gino kind of stares at the camera and says, you deserve it.

Right?

You do deserve it, but it's just going to take some work. So those would be the top two things that I would say it is worth going after. So the third thing is it takes some grit and persistence to get there. Most people have these big purposes and passions and they forget that it takes grit and perseverance to make it a reality. You gotta stay in it. You can have a lot of fun, you can make a big impact, but you still gotta stay in it. Freedom doesn't mean you can go sit, sit on the beach and do nothing. Freedom means you are free to be yourself, just to set the context for that. That's what I got.

Right. Perfect. And just, you know, one point to kind of tailgate on that is just the journey doesn't end with getting somebody else's name in the seat. Right. And so it's about, like you said, it's doing the work, it's investing in yourself and in them and doing all that stuff to blend that into this power that we're after. And, you know, with that, that's how we free the visionary to have the impact on the world that so important. And I mean, entrepreneurs are the key to so many things, solving so many problems that we face as a global society. I really believe that. So this is a critical path item, critical path puzzle to figure out. So with that, Mark, I thank you for being here today. I'm so grateful for you taking the time to sit down. I know that just sharing your perspective, sharing your experience is going to be super helpful for our listeners. So I'm thankful to our listeners for taking the time to hang out with us for a little bit. And so wrap it up there. Until next time, Go rock it. Thanks again for joining me today. Hopefully this conversation has inspired you and you learned something from our guests. If you're curious about how your current visionary integrator relationship compares to the one you want, visit rocketfueluniversity.com and take our free Crystallizer assessment. You'll learn both your visionary and integrator indicator scores and that'll help you discover your next steps together. Are you a visionary looking to take your organization to new Heights? New in 2024, the Visionary Masterclass is designed to help you lead your team under a common vision, manage your energy more effectively, and further your knowledge of a mastery level visionary integrator relationship. Register for an upcoming session@rocketfueluniversity.com.