Ep.484 ~ Are you a Visionary Entrepreneur? If You Have a Business You Need to Know This ~ Mark C. Winters

The visionary entrepreneur. They're the ones that are coming up with the ideas. They're starting the business, they're doing the crazy stupid stuff. They never run out of ideas. They're just coming fast and furious. They live a lot of times in the future and so they can kind of see where things are going. They can figure out where the best place is to position their company along that path to take advantage of where things are headed. So they're good at a lot of things, but those are the things that they're really great at. And then the integrator is, is this counterpart leader that is great at execution, they're great at follow through, they're great at the details. In simple terms, you can think about the visionary kind of making it up and the integrator making it happen or making it real. We stand today. This is method with a shadow the Business Method the Business Method Podcast the Business Method Podcast the Featuring Chris Reynolds Entrepreneurs Systems, Methods, Tools and Tactics Ladies.

And gentlemen, boys and girls, I'm your host Chris Reynolds and welcome to the Business Method podcast. A podcast featuring high performing entrepreneurs and high caliber people dissecting their different methods, tools and strategies so we can apply them to our businesses and lives. On our first series we interviewed 100 entrepreneurs that had built businesses creating $100,000 or more annually. On our second series we interviewed 100 entrepreneurs that have built seven figure businesses that can be ran anywhere in the world.

And currently we are interviewing 100 major.

Influencers to get behind the minds in the science of using influence to grow business, affect income, results, economies and cultures, especially post Covid. Since we moved into a post pandemic world, the landscape has changed drastically for most business owners. We're finding out what is working for the entrepreneurs out there that have positioned themselves well well to make sure their businesses thrive, succeed and continue to experience growth in this current economy. And now let's hop into today's show.

The Business Method listeners.

Welcome back to the podcast Today and a few months ago we interviewed a guy by the name of Gino Wickman. Gino is the author of the famous book Traction and and as I sometimes do, I asked Gino if he knew anyone that would be good to interview for our show. Gino said yes and he introduced me to today's guest. His name is Mark C. Winters and he's Gino's partner and a co author of the book Rocket. The one essential combination that will get you more of what you want for your business. Mark C. Winters is a seasoned professional with over 25 years of entrepreneurial leadership experience delivering a high level of success. His experience in companies ranges from multi billion dollar enterprises like Procter and Gamble and British Petroleum to raw startups originally drawn up on a napkin. This diverse background enables Mark to identify and apply patterns of success for virtually any business scenario. Mark is known for pursuing business opportunities related to technology and systems that enable the optimization of human athletic performance. With a special interest in pattern recognition and scoring methodologies, Mark's passion is helping entreprene get unstuck so they can expand their freedom. Mark's talent for introducing just the right combination of perspective and processes sparks teams to start moving faster or begin moving in the proper direction with clarity. And as we know, clarity is so important in the field of entrepreneurship. Without further ado, you guys, I'm going to welcome Mark C. Winters to the podcast. Mark, how are you?

I'm doing great, Chris. Thanks for having me on.

Yeah, it's great to have you. And did I get everything right in that bio? I want to make sure.

I think you wrote that perfectly.

Did I? There was a bit of plagiarism because I got some stuff off of your website and maybe LinkedIn bio. I think so, yeah. It's great to have you on the show. And I love this idea, the concepts that you guys came up with in Rocket Fuel, because it's such a simple concept and it's spoken about my entrepreneurs because I know I've had conversations all over the world from entrepreneurs all over the world about these concepts. And so annually, like, I go to a conference in Bangkok and I know we've talked about visionaries and integrators there. And so it's something that has been injected into the mind of entrepreneurs today that they're applying on a regular basis. So we're definitely going to talk about that. But I know you have a vast experience in the field of entrepreneur leadership and business yourself. So where'd the path of entrepreneurship start for you?

That's a good question. I was actually in business school at the University of Chicago, and at the time I was working for Proctor and Gamble and working in grocery stores, basically selling, you know, Procter Gamble makes everything, it seems like. And so my. My future there, although I had a path that I was going to ultimately be the CEO of Procter and Gamble, I had it all mapped out, literally. I knew the year I was going to be that it was basically a progression of dealing with, you know, bigger and bigger combinations of grocery stores with these products. So that was what it was. I'm in Class one day it was the strategy and tactics of pricing and we were doing group projects and so the groups were coming through and making their pitches. And so one group would come through and they'd say, hey, we've invented this widget and it costs us this much to make it. We can sell it for this much and we think we can sell this many and here's how we're going to do it. And so this is how much money we're going to make. And I thought that's interesting. And then another one would come along and we've identified this unmet service need and we can fill that need. It's going to cost us this much. We can sell it for this much and there's that many people that need it. And so we're going to make this much money. I thought, you know, that's just way more interesting than what I'm doing over here. And so I said that's what I want to do. And so that's really when I made up my mind that I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I didn't know what business I was going to go into. And so it led to a crazy series of events where I basically quit my job without telling my pregnant wife that I was going to do it and got a professor from Chicago to take me under his wing and let me travel with him for a little bit while I tried to figure out what my first business was going to be. And then you fast forward from there and like you mentioned, I think we're up to like 15 different companies that I've either started myself or bought from somebody else or shut down completely or sold for a great return in all different kinds of industries. So everything from retail and restaurant to manufacturing. Manufacturing to high end analytics, technology and consulting services, anything and everything in between. So it's been an interesting ride.

So a couple questions for that. First off your main website, real quick, just so the listeners know.

Yeah. So Mark C. Winners will get you to pretty much everything that I'm working on. Rocketfuelnow.com so markcwinters.com, rocketfieldnow.com for the things that are specific to visionary and integrator. And then I'm at Mark C. Winters on pretty much any social platform you want to check out.

How did your wife react when she found out you quit your job?

Well, just start a business just as you would expect she would, with shock and awe. Yeah, so it was pretty crazy. And that's one of those lessons that if I had a do over, I Certainly would have done that differently. But I'm very fortunate and blessed to say that she's still my wife and we're closing in on 30 years of marriage. But yeah, it was really an example of an entrepreneur taking sort of an unsuspecting bystander on a crazy ride with them that they really didn't know that they had signed up for. And yeah, so she's certainly, you know, paid her dues and got the scars and merit badges to show for it.

I guess for those of you out there that are thinking about quitting your job and starting a business late, listen to Mark's advice. I've had friends do the same, and it has been very difficult on the marriage, but it involves. You're in a partnership, right. So you got to include that partner and have that conversation before it happens. Because the path, like if your partner, business partner, life partner, whatever, is not on the same page with you going down this road of entrepreneurship. Like, there's so much uncertainty, there's so much cultural differences between entrepreneur mindset and non entrepreneur mindset. So it's very important that you get your partners, all partners, on the same page. Right?

Yeah. I was really, really lucky. And you know, in hindsight, Chris, you know, there's, like I said, I was kind of late 20s at that point, and so that's the stage of my life where there were others sort of attached to me. You know, it was her. And then, you know, shortly after that, our children, you know, we had the first two kids within 15 months of each other. And so as an entrepreneur, I'm wired in a way where, you know, I can't die and, you know, I could. I'm going to make it no matter what happens. If I have to sleep in my car, if I have to do whatever, I'm going to be fine. But she's not wired that way. And others around you as you get later in life and you have more people that are dependent on you. You know, I think it's a different, different approach, a different decision process and certainly a different communication process that you have to go through as you're moving down that path.

Absolutely, absolutely. So another question that comes out of that, Mark, is the process of you taking that time to find what your first business was going to be. Because there's a lot of people that do struggle with that. I work with people and they search for businesses, they sear opportunities, they don't know what really works for them. I actually take them some of, some of, like through some of the eos. Processes and Gino's process to help them understand if they're truly an entrepreneur or not and where they fit in that ball game. So, so that first. That time that you spent looking for your first business, what were the things that you look for and what made you realize this is the business I'm. I'm going to dive into? And was it a good decision?

Really, really good. Good question here. So a lot of stuff to unpack. So the first thing was, this was a time. So this was early to mid-90s, early to mid-90s. So I was living in Milwaukee. I was going to business school in Chicago. And one of the things that I'd gotten exposed to when I was in Chicago was Starbucks. And, you know, coming from Oklahoma originally and spending some time, some different places along the way, I'd never seen a Starbucks. I'd never had espresso or espresso drinks. And so I walked in there the first time, and it was kind of like this whole other really intimidating language that I wasn't sure how to deal with, and had somebody with me that, you know, helped me kind of figure it out. So I figured out my drink, and once I figured out my drink, then I would just go and get it. And then I was kind of hooked on it. And so I thought, this is good. If they can take me and convert me to this and get me to pay that price for something that I know what the cost is, this is a pretty good business. And so my first thought was, all right, I'm going to bring Starbucks to Milwaukee. Because that's right, they were not in Milwaukee. In fact, they were only at that point in time in probably Chicago, New York, San Francisco. I mean, really just the biggest of cities. And so I called them up and I'm like, all right, I want to help you guys bring Starbucks to Milwaukee. How does that work? And they informed me that, A, they don't franchise, and so that was not an option. That was not a path. And B, they really had no interest in Milwaukee at that point in time. They were just focused on these big cities. And so that would come later. And so my response to that was, well, that's kind of frustrating, but they'll get here eventually. So I'm going to move on the market myself first, and I'll go ahead and lock up all the best locations in this market, so when they come to town, they're going to have to deal with me. And so that was my mindset. And so then I started diving into the specialty coffee business, and Thinking about it, and I was concerned that differentiation was potentially a problem. How do you differentiate? How do you make it special? And other than location? Location was one, but other than that, what could you do? And so I was searching for that, and I eventually stumbled on this concept of a cyber cafe, which is the idea of having sort of computers with Internet access in a coffee shop, Right? And remember, this was early 90s, and so there just weren't very many of those places. I found one in London, I found a few in Canada. I found one in. On Harvard Square in Cambridge, there's one in New York. And that was about it. And so I decided that was interesting, though, because it took technology, which was something I loved, and it put it with this, this. This coffee shop environment, which there was something cool about that too. So I took a video camera, one of the old, actually, it was probably about that big, now that I think about it, you know, a tiny handheld that was that big. And I got in my car and I drove. I drove all the way across southern Canada, and then it came back down through Boston and New York, and then drove all the way back. So it took me a week, and this was my road trip to see what was out there. I talked to the owners, saw what they were doing, what they like, what seemed to be working well for them. I talked to their customers, I took pictures and videos and notes and all that stuff. And then I came back home and I sat down and I wrote the business plan for the ultimate cyber cafe. This was the right way to do it. Now, keep in mind, I'd never written a real business plan before. I'd never raised money before. I'd never done a lease, a retail lease before. I've never selected a retail site before. Tons of things that are first time here for me. And so then I start down the path of, all right, here's I need some money to go pull this off, so how do I do it? And started talking to people. And one of the lessons that I learned there was everybody wants to talk about it. Everybody wants to see the business plan. Oh, that sounds cool. Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah, I might be in for that. I might be, whatever. As I learned, there's a big difference from talking about it and actually writing the check. And so, you know, you don't count the check. It is not a real thing until it literally clears into your bank account. So that was a big lesson for me. But I played the game and I did the thing where I meet with somebody, I give them my pitch. And, you know, maybe they're in, maybe they're out, but they introduced me to some other. Who else should I be talking to? And eventually, through a lot of friends and family, but some other people that we kind of picked up along the way, I got to what I needed, a couple of inflection points there. One was I found the site, I found the retail site. That was a good one, and I needed to lock it down, but I didn't have my financing closed. And so that's kind of a big risk. If I'm going to put my name on this lease and be locked into this before I know I've got all the backing put together, what do you do? And so that was a tricky one for me. And so I probably got a little ahead of myself there, but I did it. And then in closing the financing, I did a deal with an investor that in hindsight, I probably should not have done. But the pressure, right, I've got to get this thing done, I've got to get it going. I got to get off the ground. But anyway, in that deal, I agreed to a list of what are called negative control covenants. Do you know what negative control covenants are?

I haven't heard that term, no.

So they basically mean that the investor can't control, so they can't tell you what to do. But in any of this list of instances, if you want to do any of these things, they have to agree for you to be able to do it. Okay, makes sense. So little old me sitting there, first time in the rodeo, I saw that, I'm like, okay, they can't tell me what to do. Okay, no problem. Yeah, we'll do that. And so we hop right in and charge forward, close the deal and start to build this thing out and buy the equipment and develop the software and all the different cool things that we were planning to do. And this was Site one. The vision was, this is site one of a concept we're going to prove in this prototype. And then boom, boom, boom, we're going to. We're going to build more. And so we get into it and, you know, we open up and a couple of lessons here. So the opening was awesome. And so, you know, staff, it was kind of cool because staff was, like, drawn to us. And so it wasn't that I had to go find people. They sort of found us and wanted to work for us. And so that was kind of cool. And I still don't fully understand how that happened, but we put together a nice, solid team to Run the retail location. We had 2500 square feet, 20 different computer stations. We developed a special booth where people could sit together around what at the time was a big monitor, a 20 inch monitor. What's kind of funny is 20 inches, but the thing was twice as deep as it was the screen size. Because this big old CRT screen, we had little cuc me video cameras sitting on top of it. So it's kind of early video conferencing, video chat capability. They all had a penn again, cutting edge processing speed at the time. And they all had a CD ROM in the CP in the station so we could network those things together. So we had a network running within the store. We had a high speed T1 line coming in which at the time people had, you know, 14.4 modems in their homes. And so they were just kind of figuring out Internet. So it was just ridiculously fast. And in this space we built it out to also have a full blown coffee bar. So I found a guy who formerly worked for Starbucks and he basically had done my plan B business plan. He had come into the marketplace, he knew how to run a coffee shop and he basically was getting the best locations and he was charging down that path and he was awesome. And so I partnered with him and he came in and he showed us how to set up the coffee bar. And the deal was we would brand it as his product and we'd sell his product through there. His beans, he had a roaster and he would, he developed a proprietary blend that you could only get from us and so you could get that there. But he trained, trained my people and he told us what machines to buy, he told us how to set it up. So that was a super smart move. You know, great learning lesson there, partnering with other people who are good at, you know, at what they do. So we had that, we wrote software so that people could be sitting at their computer and they could order from the bar and so they could have their sandwich, their coffee, right? So this was pretty cool. And so I had a great technology partner that he was super smart at developing things like that, and he built all that. And then the pricing model out of the gate was 29 and a half cents a minute. So it was a per minute fee. And so we had the software so they could log in. As soon as you log in, the clock starts running and charges your account and, and then you do whatever and you have access to all the things that are on this machine, all the things that are on every other machine by networking the CD platters and then, you know, through the Internet, high speed Internet, so you can do tons of different things. So social computing was the idea. And I watched people. And so we would have people come in first. Every, every media outlet that had some kind of an Internet based story, they wanted to come shoot it at our place. So we were the standard backdrop for people doing a story on technology or the Internet. So that was cool. That brought people in, got some aware for us. I watched people sit together and I'd have, you know, a grandparent and a grandchild sitting together playing on things, and the little kid is showing the grandparent how to do so. And that was exactly what I thought. I thought we could get people to enter, have people on dates coming and they're doing stuff together. You know, families, birthday parties, just work groups, all different kinds of things, entertainment work. So it was this kind of really cool mix that I had hoped it would be, but the behavior that I saw that was interesting was they would, they were very aware of the meter running. They'd log on, they'd do something and then they'd log off and then they talk and then they log back on to do something. They log back off. So they weren't really exploring. I wanted them to try new things and explore. And so there was a barrier there. So I really kind of scratched my head going, all right, how do we, how do we address that? And so I thought, all right, who else has a business like we have? And so I was thinking different things and the one that I landed on was health club. Health club has big expensive machinery that you're, you're not going to pay for or don't have a place for in your home a la the T1 line, maybe the high speed, you know, computer with the big monitor, whatever. It has people that can help you, so experts that can show you how to use things kind of help you if you get stuck. So that was our staff. And then it's a social place though. I mean, there's other people there. So there's kind of a scene, there's something going on. So we had that too. Like, all right, health clubs, how do they do this? How do they charge? Well, they sell memberships. They sell memberships where people can buy unlimited use for whatever. And at the time they had, actually health clubs had kind of some different packages that sort of evolved later, but so I sort of copied that and we had a one day pass, you buy one week pass, you buy one month pass, you could buy whatever and basically have unlimited access to everything. And so that was the right answer. So we did that. And that people, all of a sudden, they didn't worry about the meter running. They're just playing. They're just doing stuff. And so then they told more people. And the next thing I know, we had line at each workstation. So we had. On a weeknight, we might have four people deep at a single workstation. And so classic business problem here. I have more demand than I have supply. What should I do?

Get another cafe.

Okay. What else could I do?

And make more workstations.

Okay, I've got them all. I've got as many as I can fit. So what's my other leverage? Supply and demand. Come on, Chris. Price.

Increased price.

Yeah. Right. So my demand is greater than my supply. So I have an opportunity here to increase price. So I did, and I basically doubled it. Nice first move. And so what do you think that did to my demand?

Decreased the demand. Or sometimes that reverse happens too, right?

It could have. Right, yeah. Right. So in my case, it didn't. I saw no reduction in demand. So I basically still had lines.

Nice. Okay.

Right. And so I still had lines. So that's telling me I can probably increase price even more. But. But just like that, with that one move, I doubled my revenue. And so this is all sounding great, right? So I've got a pricing model I've landed on. You know, I've got. I've just doubled my price and had no, no drop in demand. And so this stuff, is this moving. You know, people like things. We're getting good reviews. You know, the media loves us. This is all great. Enter mistake number three that rookie entrepreneur makes, which is when we're talking about working capital in the business plan and how much to kind of set aside, we're going to have this thing up and running fast. I don't need a lot of extra cash sitting around. Right. So that number probably wasn't. Well, no, it definitely wasn't as big as it should have been. Okay. So as we're ramping this thing up, we're burning through cash. Burning through cash. We're getting better. We're losing less and less every day. And we get to a point, though, where we're really close. Maybe 50 or $100 per day less than break even.

Okay.

And we're out. Cash is gone. And so I have lenders that are ready to lend me more money. I have people who are begging to invest, and I have a partner who has a list of negative control covenants that we have to discuss this. Okay, so I say, all right, we're out of money, but here's what's happening. Pricing model's right. We got a ramp that looks like this. We're right there about to break even. What do you want to do? Should we take in more investors? Should we take on a little more debt? What do you think is the best way to get through this? The response was basically neither. I don't want to do either one of those, Mark. That was a real shocker. Head scratcher that led me to be really confused. And it also led me to, all right, well, then I'm going to form another company and we're going to take over company one's debt and I'm going to take over their assets and we're going to go do it over here. And you know, that didn't fly. And basically I had a whole attorney bank thing where the bank called the note and in a matter of just like a couple of weeks, this whole thing came unwound. And so, you know, uncomfortable spouse situation number two. Remember I told you my first children were born 15 years months apart. So after I quit without telling her when she's pregnant with child one. Well, as she's pregnant and within a week of delivering child two, great wife that she is, she's standing beside me as I gather the employees and tell them, show's over, guys, we got to shut this thing down and we're going to sell everything off.

Yeah.

And so that's what happened. And I had probably one of, if not the first Internet based auctions to sell off all this equipment and get liquid so that I could take care of the bank debt and all that kind of stuff. And I mean, it was heartbreaking. And so anyway, I don't know, was that a good experience or a bad experience?

Well, as an entrepreneur, I think that's a fantastic experience because I'm sure you grew so much from it. I don't know, as a wife, I couldn't answer that question, but. Or as an employee or as an investor. But I think that's an amazing experience for a young guy in his 20s, early 30s to have for anybody. But yeah, the extra tension of family and babies and employees and investors probably didn't help you out too much. So how did you feel after that all went down? I'm sure you were crushed or devastated or resilient.

What I remember is exhausted. And part of that is from managing all these different fronts, just like fighting a battle on eight fronts and feeling there's embarrassment in my track Record up to that point, there wasn't a lot of fail. And a lot of that's because I wasn't taking risks. I wasn't taking big chances and stuff. So there was that. And it's a lot of, wow, this is uncharted waters. What do I do? How do I dig out of this? I got people to take care of. And so, yeah, it was a hard time, but I remember being exhausted was kind of the word that I would use to sum it all up. And so then. But that's what you do. You pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and take the learning. And it was a very expensive education. But what I found was, which was sort of a surprise to me, the marketplace valued it. Yes, right. And people that are in the game that know, you know, if you're talking to an entrepreneur who hasn't dealt with something like that, who hasn't had the big epic fail, you know, they're, they're not done yet. And it might be, you know, your, your project that they're going to have it on. So, you know, there's, there's, there's value to that. And people that have been around the block a few times, they, they saw that. And so, you know, fortunately, that led me to some opportunities to kind of do the next thing.

I like that. Other than, than having those clauses there, what are some of the other biggest mistakes that you learned from during that process?

So I was probably force fitting it in a market for me. So if I was to stand back at the country and go, all right, where's the best place to do this? It probably wasn't Milwaukee, but my reality there was that was a place I could make it work, or I thought I could make it work. And so there were some other factors that kind of led to us doing that. So that's one is, you know, there's, there's. Understand your research, understand your market, and be really careful if you're, if you're taking risks against the market. It's hard to teach people to do new things, you know, and so I was probably way ahead of that one. Yeah, I could see it and it got there, you know, but it, I was, I was way ahead of it. And so you gotta, you gotta educate a lot of people. And that's hard and it's expensive. You know, the, on the investor side, you know, that was a big one. But I think there's also a communication thing there where I let that relationship get, you know, a little bit like this, maybe a lot like this. And that's probably because I wasn't communicating effectively, proactively enough to really understand. I still don't understand the other side of that, and it probably never will, but it just didn't make sense. And so my guess is that ego got involved, probably on my part, maybe on his part. So it's back to having good alignment, communicating, taking care of partners so that they understand what's really going on, particularly somebody who's that significant a part of the project as this individual was.

So when you're. I think you said you're in your late 20s, when you were starting this business, where does a guy in his late 20s look for investors? Did you just have family connections?

Yeah, so. So it was. I mean, it really was friends and family. So it was some family members, but again, nobody made some big chunk. I mean, it was all small chunks and friends, you know, that either through school, you know, business school, or that really was it. I had an attorney. My deal attorney ended up investing, and that's who introduced the other individual who ended up being the unwinding. And so, you know, I'm a little bit confused by that as well. There's probably a bit of conflict there on the attorney's part, but they were in the deal, they lost money, we all lost money. So. Yeah, but it wasn't like I got access to some angel group and got people like that to come in. It really wasn't like that. It was. The only big outsiders were a couple people from the law firm and then this other individual who was also a big client of the law firm. And that was what was the big chunk on the back end that allowed me to get it done.

I think that's great to share because so many people, I think, look for. For, oh, I have to have this big angel investor, VC or something like that. But so many small businesses are started by family loans. Like, somebody has an idea and says, hey, mom, hey, dad, hey, Grandma, hey, can I borrow some money? I got this crazy idea, and they invest in that, believing in their family member or their friend that it can turn out great. And quite often it does. And. And quite often it doesn't. But it's just kind of part of the process. I did the same thing when I was starting out as well. Took $20,000 out. I borrowed it from my parents and went down this rabbit hole of entrepreneurship. And it's very common. It's a very common thing.

I also. Just before we leave that one, Chris, the other part of the picture was credit cards. And so that was as I. Cause remember, I. We basically ran out of cash before I confronted the situation, so I didn't anticipate it very well. And so to keep everything spinning, that's. That led me to. To credit cards, and that's a bad place.

So spinning the plates on all the fingers.

Right? Yeah, that's it.

Yeah. Yeah. So. Okay. So. So did you. So you had a proven concept, though. So if you. So all this kind of this, your small empire crumbled down. What was next? Did you think about recreating this? Like, let's do this again?

Yeah, I mean, I thought I had good intellectual property and I probably did. I just wasn't smart enough to monetize it. But the software we had was really, really cool. The design that we had and the branding that we had was really cool. And so that all was. Had. It clearly had potential. But remember, the word I used was exhausted.

Yeah.

And so I was exhausted. My wife was totally burnt. Right. And had no patience for me to be spending energy on that, which was another high risk move. Right. In terms of how we can get some money in the door to feed these now two kids and hang onto the house and all that kind of stuff. So what happened was sort of, again, it's sort of luck, but I started putting resumes out and I'm thinking, oh man, I got to get a job, I got to go back to work, and this sucks. But I'm. But I'm doing it and I'm following the good, you know, MBA graduate approach of, you know, making it all look like it's supposed to look and sending it to all the places it should go. But one place that I started looking at is my, my business school alum or career office had a thing that they put out for people that were looking for, you know, MBAs from that school. Right. And so it was kind of a job listing, but very targeted for, you know, that group. And so I was responding to some of those, and that's a whole different thing than responding to some posting that you see that's just generic, that's out there, you know, maybe they've already filled. And so I responded to one of those, and it was for Amoco Petroleum, which is headquartered in downtown Chicago. And they reached out, they brought me in, and the job was very interesting because essentially what they were looking for, they had an internal concept that they were looking to expand and they wanted somebody to sort of test their bureaucracy, if you will, meaning they were a huge company. They had internal resources that were capable of doing everything. And it was one of those things where basically they required everybody to use their internal resources. So you have to use our architects, you have to use our engineers, you have to use our IT people, you have to use all that. And so this particular manager was really concerned that, you know, it seems like this is slowing us down. And so my job was to come in and basically be an entrepreneur in residence, look at this business and go, all right, here's how we're going to grow it. And I had free rein to use anybody I wanted, so I didn't have to play by those rules. I could bring in outside people. So if the internal source, you know, vendor, supplier, whatever you want to think about them, couldn't do it as fast as, well, as cheap as whatever as somebody else I could find, then I could take the outside partner. And so that was awesome. I mean, I had. It was like having the freedom of being an entrepreneur with the resources of this massive company behind me, going out and buying real estate and building projects and doing all this stuff. I recall this, which is crazy to me. Now. Remember, I'm about 30, 31, 32 years old at this point in time. I had a million dollar signing authority. Wow, wow, wow. That's insane. I can basically write a check for a million dollars without somebody having to sign off on it. And I'm sure that was a total mistake and shouldn't have happened, but anyway, it did. And so we rolled on and did this. And so I was there for a number of years, not a lot of years, but three or four years. And I did one concept was, which was an unattended fleet fueling concept. So basically a gas station with nobody there, just running on technology. And then I also did some work with their, their, their automotive maintenance concept, and then that, that sort of teed up the next, next opportunity from there.

How cool. How cool. Let's go back to your first venture, diving into the concept of what rocket fuel talks about. Rocket fuel talks about the visionary leaders and the integrator leaders. Right. First off, which one are you? And did you feel like now looking back, if you had the opposite of that leadership, that maybe that idea could have panned through because you were juggling a lot as young, young entrepreneur running that company.

You know, you're the first person that's asked me that question. And you're absolutely right. That would have, I think, I mean, not 100% certain, but I think it's highly probable that we could have avoided that misstep if, if I'd had that counterpart in Place that's really interesting. So I am extremely visionary.

Okay.

And I'm very low integrator.

Okay.

So yeah, that's me. So when you put me in a situation like that, I have tons of gaps. And so I'm sure my team felt that and saw that the, you know, an integrator in place there would have, you know, helped like, I mean, running out of cash. We would have seen that coming, right. Would have been proactively dealing with that and heading that off and knowing what the issues were probably would have been a good buffer for me with the big investor. So yeah, a lot of things that that would have done to, to head that off. The other thing that was missing there though is an operating system. So, you know, again, my first rodeo, I didn't know and so I'm just flying by the seat of my pants. And you know, later on in other businesses I discovered, you know, hey, you know, there's systems that make sense to run an entrepreneurial business. And so I began to implement those in my, in my later ventures and made a world of difference.

Yeah, that's incredible. So, so since then you've built and bought and ran multiple companies over the years and then written this book with Gino rocketfuel talking about the visionary and the integrators. So I, when I first went over this concept, I thought for certain that I was a visionary. I was like, oh yeah, 100%, I'm a very. And I took your guys test and it showed up. I was 77 visionary and 57 integrator, which I was surprised about. And I watched one of your videos talking about the. Where you're at if you're kind of closer to the middle and in what it takes to build a business if you are closer to the middle. Can you explain the concepts a bit more in detail? Visionary and integrators and how they play roles in companies?

Sure. So the visionary entrepreneur. Chris, as you know, I'm sure most of your listeners are very familiar with that Persona. Right. They're the ones that are coming up with the ideas. They're starting the business. They're doing the crazy stupid stuff that I did in that, in that example we talked about. But they never run out of ideas and so they're just coming fast and furious. They think and live a lot of times in the future and so they can kind of see where things are going and they can figure out where the best place is to position their company along that path to take advantage of where things are headed. They normally enjoy external Relationships. So whether that's in the industry or just other people of influence in the community, whatever. But outside, big external relationships are normally very good at that. Sometimes they're great salespeople too, sometimes they're great closers. And they've had to do a lot of things in just survival of getting to where they've gotten. So they're good at a lot of things, but those are the things that they're really great at. And then the integrator is this counterpart leader that is great at execution. They're great at follow through, they're great at the details. And so, you know, in simple terms, you can think about the visionary kind of making it up and the integrator making it happen or making it real. Right. And they also are good managers. So they're good at kind of weaving through in between the different leaders on the leadership team to get them aligned, get them pulling together, get them all really focused on the direction that we're trying to execute with, with the plan and again, making it happen through other people.

So I feel like when you describe visionary, that sounds exactly like me. And the integrator was maybe a learned behavior. Is that something that could happen over the years?

Yeah. So I'd say the integrator behaviors are much more learned than the visionary behaviors, although there's probably not entirely. So if you're not wired to be an integrator, you're not going to be a great one. You may be able to do it. And that's the videos you probably watch. You talk about just the energy required. It's not that you can't do it, it, it's just harder for you. Yeah, right. It requires more, more effort, more energy. And so you may get tired sooner than somebody that it's easy for. Yeah, right. So if somebody's, if somebody's wired at a 99 on that and you're wired at what, 78, then you know, you might get to the same place, but they're going to be less exhausted than you are.

Yeah, I think I was 57 integrator and 77 visionary is what it came up as. Yeah, yeah.

And you know, it's not a pass fail. So we talk about 80 is kind of, you know, just to give a reference point, 80 and higher. It's pretty clear that that's what you are. You know, 77 is pretty close. So that's indicative probably of how you feel. So, you know, again, and there's a difference in application in terms of the industries that you're in. Right. So if you're in an industry that is. It's not super dynamic. It's something that maybe hasn't changed a lot in a while and isn't expected to change. And they're not a lot of crazy, weird competitors and, you know, other complexities that kind of make it. Make it unusual, then somebody doesn't have to be super high on the visionary scale to be a great visionary in that industry. Right? But on the other end, if you're some advanced technology thing that is crazy out there and there's things changing not every year, but every five minutes, then, yeah, you probably need somebody that's pretty far out there to be able to be a strong visionary in that world, in that application.

That makes so much sense. I've seen so many entrepreneurs get to the point, they have this great business and they've built it up, but this comes like. Then they get torn between working in the business and on the business because they're trying to do the integrator's job. And when. When does the point come along, Mark, that one should realize that, hey, I need to hire an integrator now, because if not, I'm gonna die. The business is gonna die. Like, this is gonna just go to pot.

But let me give you two different versions of that. One is somebody who's. They're kind of in it right now. So they've got a leadership team of some form or fashion. They're doing some of it themselves, and they're just trying to figure out they need a sales leader, they need a finance leader, they need an integrator. They need somebody. Right? They need. They got needs everywhere. And so in that situation, it depends, and they really have to do an assessment of, all right, where's our biggest pain? Where's our biggest opportunity cost to kind of figure out what the next hire is? It may be integrator, but it might not be. It might be that sales leader, or, you know, it could be any of the others, just depending on the situation they're in. So one of the tools to use in figuring out how the integrator fits in that is to look at all the issues that you've got all the issues on on your issues list and kind of walk down that list and go, all right, which ones of these would be solved if I had a great integrator in place? And you can usually tell if I had a greater in place, that wouldn't be an issue. That wouldn't be an issue. That wouldn't be an issue. And then kind of go back and, and put a figure on that that says, you know what, here's the dollar impact of that. Here's the dollar impact, here's the dollar impact of that. And kind of add those up and weigh that against the cost of the integrator that you're thinking about bringing in. Right. And a lot of times that's important for a visionary to kind of get clear. Cause it's easy on the front side to see, oh yeah, they're going to cost me X. I can't spend X on that right now. Right. But you need that structure to be able to see what the impact is going to be. Okay. That helps them get their mind around the roi. With that in mind, then it's got to fight that out against the other gaps that they may have. Now, having said all that, I have numerous entrepreneurs that'll go through that process and they'll ultimately get there. So they'll get their integrator, they'll get a great integrator, they'll have a strong relationship, they'll get a great leadership team in place and they'll do great things and the company works. And then at some point down the road, maybe they exit it and it's all good. And, you know, but now they're bored and they want to do their next thing. And so who do you think their first hire is?

I guess they would shoot for an integrator. Right. Because they did it once before. Right.

Not always, but many times. It's like they've seen how it played out. They've seen how it impacted them, what they were able to do, how they were able to leverage their unique ability, as Dan Sullivan calls it. But that's, that's what I see happen. So. So the people who have been down that path, that's a move they'll make. So, you know, for those that are going through it the first time, just hear that it may not be the right answer for you, but, you know, just be aware that that, that does happen in somebody who's experienced the dynamic before.

You think that's a smart move? I guess as long as they're still going to play the visionary role. Right. To build the company up, it should, as long as you get the right person, be a decent move. Right?

Yeah. I mean, basically, to use another Dan Sullivan reference, it's who, not how.

Right.

And so, you know, the visionary is focused on, you know, what they want, the vision. You know, here's what I want to see happen. And I don't need to figure out how if I've got you and you're a rock star integrator. You're going to be better at solving those problems than I am. So, you know, let's go way back to the, you know, my first company example and think about that. You know, would they have been better than me at doing all those things that I did? Probably so. And if I could have structured a deal where, you know, I could have had that partnership out of the gate, our odds of success probably would have been a lot higher. I think you hit on something there that I think is very relevant.

Have you ever met somebody that's really good at both?

They're rare. You know, we say less than 5% of the folks that are out there are capable of that. And they, and there's. I want to distinguish between being capable of it and really wanting to do it. And you know, Gino is probably one of those, but if you poke on him, he'll go one way or the other. And most people are like that, like, look, if you could only do one, which one would you pick? And usually they'll give you an answer. And I believe that's really the better answer. But a lot of visionaries, again, because of the things they've had to learn in growing up and having to do everything along the way, they got capable in pretty much every area. They can do marketing and do sales, they can do the books, they can do that stuff. Doesn't mean they're great at it, doesn't mean they love it, but they can do it. And so they think at first blush, when they hear the concept, they think, well, I can do all this if I'm both.

Yeah.

And the reality is though, but what are you great at and what do you. And what do you love and which side do those things fall on? That's where we want you to spend your energy.

With the people I work with, we take them through a four quadrant personality test. Have you ever heard of this? The controller, analyzer, promoter and supporter?

I've heard something like that, yeah.

Yeah. And so we all have a natural personality type that we operate well in. But to be a good leader, you have to learn a bit of the other personality types as well. But I talk to people. Like we had one guy in our mastermind and he was operating in the analyzer personality type when he was really a promoter and a marketer by nature. And he couldn't figure out why he kept getting stressed out, why he was angry with his business partners all the time, why he was just hated the business. And I'M like, look, this isn't where you should be in the company. Like you're doing something that's opposite of your natural personality and it drains your energy. And it makes sense too. Like when I do integrator stuff, I do it and I've learned to be better at it over the years, but it really drains my energy. Like if I'm doing visionary stuff, I can do it for days on end, like go and go and go and go, not worry about the clock. If I'm doing integrator stuff, like, I don't know if I can even hit the eight hour mark before I'm exhausted. You know, six hours, maybe four hours. And I'm just like, oh gosh, more integrated stuff. But yeah, it's so interesting. I'm going to use this in my business and the people we work with so much.

And imagine, Chris, a company where every seat, every person that's in a seat is able to play in that sweet spot and have that energy. Right. So that they don't get exhausted, they basically can go on, they get better. And their results are phenomenal. They're really great at it, naturally. And it's just like this huge multiplier of the human energy you've got in that, in that organization. Right. And anytime that we're, you know, if I take one hour of your energy and I use it on integrator stuff, you know, maybe I effectively get a quarter hour. Yeah. I use it on visionary stuff and maybe I get four hours.

Yeah.

So why am I trained quarter hours for, you know, giving away four hours for, for, you know, a quarter hours or this stuff? Right. I mean, that's, that's the way I think about it.

Yeah, I like that a lot. I love that. I have to ask you about some of the businesses that you're kind of focused on these days are related to technology and systems that enable optimization for human and athletic performance. Is there a reason why you've kind of chosen to go down that route? Is that just something you found a good niche in or do you have a passion for that?

Yeah, so there's a couple of things that are at the root there. So one is, through some of my analytics businesses, I really developed an affinity for scoring systems. Right. And you saw that in the visionary integrator assessments. Right. So I think those are a helpful way for us to kind of take a lot of stuff and boil it down to a reference point that people can actually relate to and begin to think about and talk about. So that's part of it and, you know, my passion is for people to be able to get more of what they really want. You see that in the entrepreneurial work. I think that entrepreneurs are the answer to many of the problems that we face as a planet right now. And so as I can apply that to do things that are going to help more entrepreneurs be more successful, then that's not just going to impact them, but it's going to have this huge ripple effect where it's going to impact the people in their businesses, the markets that they operate in, the communities that they operate in. And I think it's just a tremendous lever. So an entrepreneurial business is largely about human energy. We've talked about it, right? I mean, it kind of comes up. So it's, it's, you know, the operating system helps focus that. That's what EOS does. You know, the structure of the visionary integrated relationship, the structure we put around that helps focus that, that energy. And then, you know, one of my new projects is really focused on helping individuals, entrepreneurs, but others as well, really understand what their unique freedom looks like. And so, you know, your definition of what freedom looks like for you, and my definition are going to be different. And, you know, my wife's is going to be different and Gino's is going to be different. And so I've built a structure where I've identified essentially nine domains of freedom that you can begin to think through and think about. All right, here's what that aspect of my life, I want it to look like now and in the future. And as you get clear on that, then you begin to be able to see, all right, if that's what I want, if this is where I am now, this is where I want to go in this regard, then this is the stuff that I need to be focused on. This is the stuff that I need to be able to move the needle on so that I can actually make that happen and get more of that that I want.

I like that. I love that. I love helping entrepreneurs. Anything that helps entrepreneurs perform it at higher levels because we're solving so many of the world's problems and there's a few entrepreneurs out there that are causing a lot of the world's problems, too. But more, more often than not, we're solving the world's problems and making life easier for humanity. And anything that can help us perform on a higher level, it's phenomenal. I'm diving a lot into, like, the neuroscientist and brain optimization these days, like, what can we do to increase the brain voltage increase the capacity and the cognitive behaviors in our brains, understanding pattern recognition, like I just gel about this stuff.

So, so, so on that note, so the foundation of the model, I mean it's sort of the three things that we're all, you know, born with or gifted with when we show up on the planet. And I mean you've, you've heard them, but it's, it's, it's your body, it's your mind and it's your spirit. Right, Whatever that, whatever that means to you. But that, that, that mind is, is about cognition and I mean it's, it's right in line with what you're talking about. You know, we've got to take care of this physical vessel that we've got, but you got to take care of that mental engine up there to make sure that you're getting everything that you can out of that if you're gonna, you know, be able to climb the rungs and get the things that you want in the other areas of your life. That's the basic ingredients I always related.

To like a Formula one race car. You know, if you're gonna, if you're gonna create a Formula one race car, mechanics are tinkering with the engine on a daily basis. They're making sure it has the right fuel, the rocket fuel, it has, you know, all the others. The aerodynamics are important, the wheels are important, all that stuff's important. But without the engine, that sucker's not going anywhere. Right. And why now mental health? You know, understanding the health of our brains is so important these days in our bodies, in our, you know, emotions and how that's all controlled together. It's like so excited for the next 20 years of understanding human performance because we're really going to, we're going to become superhuman even more in a healthy way. And not. People talk about these microchips and stuff like that and reading neural link and reading people's thoughts. But I think just from a health standpoint and a mind brain standpoint, our performance is just going to continue to increase.

Yeah, Ray Kurzweil talks about basically hitting escape velocity in terms of longevity. Right. And so the science is moving so fast right now in terms of the things that are going to help you stay healthy longer that the game is kind of, you need to be aggressively holding on to everything you've got. Right. And health wise right now and preserving it because we get closer and closer to a time where you may be able to extend that maybe you'll be able to back it up, I don't know. But you'll be able to extend it for longer and longer. So, you know, the escape velocity would be where, you know, the science is, is increasing lifespan faster than you're aging.

Yes, yes, absolutely. That's, that's mind blowing. But the importance too, I was just, I was, I was thinking about this when, when you just mentioned that is, is the importance of being flexible and not attached to what we think health is. Because five years down the road, 10 years down the road, we're going to find out something that we're eating that was healthy. You know, bread was healthy 10 years, 20 years ago. Right. And now all of a sudden, you know, don't eat bread. Or at least bread with gluten and white bread is no longer good. Used to be wheat bread. I thought it was healthy as a kid to eat eating wheat bread. I'm like, oh, yeah, it's fine. Wheat bread and some Miracle Whip and ham sandwich. That's healthy. Not anymore. You know, but I, you know, I struggle with this as well. Is like not get attached. You know, when somebody tells me, my doctor just told me that beet juice, I love beet juice in the morning, beetroot juice in the morning. He says it's not always good for you because it can actually crystallize in your stomach depending on how you. Each person digests it differently and can affect your digestion. Digestion. And I was like, man, what are you going to tell me? That's my beetroot juice? I love that, you know, but we can't be attached to this because if we want to extend our health as long as possible, we have to continue to.

This is why we need to be able to do the saliva test and then be able to tell you again exactly what's great for you.

Yeah.

You know, and so it's not one size fits all, you know, it's. It's different. We learn more all the time. But everybody's, everybody's chemistry, everybody's situation is different. And so, yeah, my belief is that people aren't healthy because they don't know. Yeah, they don't know that that thing they're about to do or that thing they're about to eat is negatively going to impact their health. They can't see that. But if as we're able to make that stuff visible, which we're getting better and better at, people can make more informed decisions. I mean, if you knew that you ate X, Y and Z and you did A, B and C physically or whatever, that's the optimal prescription for you. And it's real. It's not going to change in two years. Right. So you can have confidence in it. I think a lot more people would make great decisions.

Absolutely. I've got to ask you one more question here, Mark. I've heard you had the ability to connect really well with high achieving people, high successful CEOs, successful entrepreneurs. What's your method for connecting with the people that you want to rub shoulders with more often?

That's a good question. And you know, for me, it's looking for the things we have in common. So I find that I have something in common with almost everybody and I don't think that's unique to me. I think everybody does have something in common with almost everybody. If you just start kind of tuned into what that might be, it might be that, you know, we grew up or lived in a similar area. We, our kids are about the same age, you know, we read the same types of books or enjoy the same types of sports, whatever it is. But you know, once we kind of establish something, you know, maybe the more things, the better that, oh, you're like me, it just becomes easier.

Yeah, Easy. Easy enough. Okay, so we've got anything you want to talk about before we sign off? I know you got rocket. Tell us a little bit about Rocket Fuel University, what you guys are doing there.

Yeah, so all the work that we're done doing to support rocket fuel is kind of designed to support what we call the rocket fuel journey. And think about the rocket fuel journey in three stages. Crystallize, connect and maximize. So crystallize all the stuff we've been talking about today helps people crystallize. What is this visionary? What is this integrator? Is that something that can help me? And if it is, the next problem is they've got to get connected, right? So if they don't have an integrator, they don't have a visionary. How do you do that? So we got to be able to help them with that. And then once they're together, we've got to maximize that relationship because left on their own, it's kind of a frictional headbutting kind of a relationship. So we got to put structure around that to blend that friction into a positive energy that really helps the business achieve the performance that we've talked about. So everything's designed to help move down that path. So the first thing we have created is called Rocket Fuel University. And that's really a place for all visionaries, integrators, and those that are interested in their success to come and gather in a collaborative community to really learn more and help each other. And on the entry path to that community is a video course called Rocket Fuel 101. And it's me talking a bunch of the basic concepts in the book to kind of help spin somebody up in a couple of hours to the basics of what visionary and integrator are all about. Once they finish that, they're invited to this launchpad community to talk to other visionaries, integrators and, and people that are interested in this. And then for those in that community that have identified themselves as an integrator and said, you know, I want to be really great. I want to be truly great as an integrator. I want to master my craft. We have a program for them called the Integrator Academy Masterclass and that's a four week intensive. Again, more video based training, but also group coaching, live group coaching with me and the team where we're answering their questions, talking about their issues, they're helping each other. It's a peer group kind of format. So over the course of four weeks they really are able to see, here's what being a great integrator looks like and get some actionable things that they can begin to work on as they move down their own path toward mastery. And then once they graduate that we invite them to apply to become a part of our certified integrator program. And in that program, you know, they continue to work with really the highest level integrators and we coach them and help them continue to their path to mastery and they can earn the designation to actually call themselves a certified integrator or professional integrator, depending on what level, what level they want to want to practice at. So that's, that's where I'm focused right now. And a lot of the stuff I've got going on so we, we love working with people to help them move down that path.

And the website for that. Mark.

Yeah, so, so if you want to hit anything me markseatwinners.com that includes kind of everything within that rocketfuelnow.com is the stuff specific to visionaries and integrators. So go there and look for Rocket Fuel University and that'll get you started.

I also recommend you guys taking the test to see, to figure out if you are the visionary or the integrator. We have a guy that we're working with in our mastermind right now is going through the exact same process, needs to get an integrator in his company is getting burnt out of doing the day to day tasky stuff and really needs somebody. So and I've seen multiple people use this system and it has really just helped them take business and life to the next level. Life is much better when they're not operating in an integrated position or when they're not an integrator or vice versa. So this is very valuable for any company out there. So. Well, Mark, I want to say thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been a really enjoyable conversation. Thank you for taking your time and sharing your wisdom with us. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Mark.

Yeah, Chris, thanks for the great questions and thanks for having me on. It's fun.

Listeners, we're going to wrap up there. Thank you guys for tuning in once again and we'll see you all on the next episode. Goodbye everybody.

Hey listeners, thanks for joining us once again. We wanted to remind you about our high performance productivity coaching and our five, six, seven and eight figure private masterminds. These are all designed for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs to help you scale rapidly and grow. Check out all the details@thebusinessmethod.com that's the businessmethod.com and we'll see you all on the next episode.

Sam. Sa.