Healthy Visionary/Integrator Relationships Make Businesses Flourish | Chad Holt and Matthew Strong

I mean, I'm basically work from home. I've got a great office. I'm looking over my backyard right now. So it's a relaxing place for me to contemplate and do deep thought, which is what I really get the most out of. That's where I think I bring the most value because that's where my experience is. I used to have to do that in the office with chaos running around. Now I can focus on the big picture for the big things, the big rocks that need to be knocked out as we grow.

Everybody, this is Mark C. Winners, co author of Rocket Fuel and expert EOS implementer. Welcome to the Rocket Fuel podcast where visionary and integrator duos from entrepreneurial companies share a behind the scenes look at their relationship. These amazing leaders blend their unique skills to create what we call rocket fuel. Today I'm sitting down with Matt Strong, President of C1S Group, Inc. And Chad Holt is vice president of sales and operations. C1S works with everyone from Fortune 500 companies to local business owners. No matter what you do or the facility challenge you face, they have the solution to make your building and your operations better. In this episode, we start back in 2013 as Matt's business began to really take off. Matt quickly found that he wasn't able to keep up with all the aspects of his business that were close to his heart. As he saw things slipping through the cracks, he began to see the need for a separation between the roles of visionary and integrator. Enter Chad. In the summer of 2017, Chad, despite not having an engineering background, turned out to be the ideal person. Those shoes as the integrator. Listen as we explore the big time issues in operating a family business, delegating responsibilities and effectively forming and communicating with a leadership team. And notice the dynamic between the integrator and the owner of the company, along with the importance of trust and patience in that relationship. Let's dive in. So, hey guys, thanks for your time today and welcome to the show.

Thank you, Mark. Glad to be here.

Nice to see you and catch up a little bit. So I know you guys fairly well. We've worked together for a while and I'm curious to kind of dig back into the story. Matt. So let's start with you. And you know, you've kind of made a run at this visionary integrator thing a couple of times. And so why don't you kind of go back to when maybe we first started talking about it and you first kind of started to entertain the idea of having an integrator and where you were and what you thought about it and what kind of got you to make your first move in that direction.

Sure. So we started in 2013 with you and it was a great experience and we grew and I think that was the biggest catalyst for needing and seeing the need for the separation between the vision and the integrator. I was in the vicinity for better part of five years. And as we grew, my responsibilities continued to grow on both sides. And I just wasn't able to keep up with all of the day to day, all of the visionary aspects. That is true to my heart. And the integrator side was starting to fall behind. So just through our sessions, our quarterly sessions, we continue to see things that were getting dropped and it was. That's kind of where we are, where I saw the need to jump off and get an integrator.

So let's talk about what the experience was like for you at that point. So you knew there were two different seats. You're sitting in both of them. You knew that your natural wiring was really more towards the visionary side, but you're filling that integrator seat. At that time, were you also sitting in some other seats?

Yes, I was the head of our engineering department. So that was in itself another full time job. So between those three different key responsibilities, my capacity ball was just totally full. So that's really where the push told me that it's time to make a change. And thank you for helping us get there.

Well, yeah, so you guys did the hard part. You've done the hard work. So I'm just there to kind of ask questions and hopefully nudge you as an implementer. But I'm curious. So you're in this place, you're sitting in these multiple seats, all very important seats, you know, kind of more stuff you can do, feeling that overwhelm that goes with being in that kind of a situation. Tell us a little bit more about how did that affect you? So I mean, what was that doing to Matt Strong? When Matt's really trying to keep all those things cranking, you know, in his business and working and just challenged to do it. What's the feeling, you know, Give me some more about that.

Well, it's basically a life balance situation. Like, you know, I was spending too much time in the office overnighters. It was just whatever it took to get each job completed, whether it be engineering or whether it be personnel and integrator and policies. Or was it thinking about next year, five years down the road in the visionary seat. So it just Built up as we grew. And we were probably in the 12 person size range when we started with you. And today we're at 42 or so. And we've gone through spurts, we've gone through, you know, valleys and peaks. And when we hit those peaks and we've got more people, more things going on, that's when it really hits. It's been a blessing to be able to have that separation between the V and the eye and not be so consumed with the day to day.

Right.

That was just a tough lesson to learn.

Yeah. And so, I mean, this is a family business too, right? So you and your wife are in this thing together. That's correct. And both carrying a lot of load. And from my chair of the Observer, I remember that being. You know, you talk about work, life, balance, which side of that equation seemed to give.

It doesn't. Yeah. And that's the issue. You were there during 2018 when we hit rock bottom. We were at the top and things just fell out. And it was tough at home, it was tough at the office. And we had quite a few sessions where some tears were shed and some big time issues were processed during our quarterly sessions. And that's about the time when Chad came on board too. So things always work out for a reason, and it has.

Yeah. So let's talk about that. So, Chad, you came to the team and you weren't originally coming to the team as the integrator, were you?

No, that wasn't the explicit purpose. You know, I was coming from corporate America and I think, you know, part of our story is that Matt and his wife and myself and my wife, we had a deep friendship. So we got boys that right now are 18 and 16. They have those boys. And then I have 18 and 16 year old boys. And so we formed a friendship, starting out on sports fields and then y guy campouts and then dad's trips and then traveling as a family. But I had a successful job in corporate America, but traveling too much and I'd stayed too long. I stayed past a promise I made to myself to go find something different. And so that kind of created some frustration. I think I described as it had a Jerry Maguire moment. And I ended up quickly on the street and in fact on a beach next to Matt. And he was like, well, what are you going to do next? I was like, I don't know. I was supposed to have this job I just had gotten promoted to. But, you know, that's when he said, hey, why don't you come on and help with, you know, he thinks he has a sales issue. So this was mid-2017, the summer of 2017, and they were in the process of having their record revenue year, I think about 22 million or so in revenue. But sales were trending to be about 9 million that year. So, yeah, first came on consulting, then came on in December as like a director of BDN marketing. But even from that initial, and Matt can speak to this, but from that initial maybe conversation, I think there was a thought that this is where we could head to, where I could take on more responsibility as soon as I got familiar with the industry and the business and really try and be that number two for Matt.

So talk about that a little bit, Matt. So did you see kind of a glimmer of hope there? You've got a real present problem to come and help kind of fix the sales equation and get it back in the right direction. But did you, you know, you had kind of a sense from the beginning, what was the rest of the story there?

Well, yeah, it all started on the beach in Florida. And it was, you know, I knew Chad from what, five years before that. So we had a good relationship. We knew each other, we trusted each other, and it was in the back of my mind the whole time. But that wasn't the current emergency that we were facing. We needed sales. We had gone from 22 million in 17, and we were looking at around 9 million in sales the next year. So we were basically bouncing off, off the bottom. And I needed help to get that sales number, that business development back in full force. And Chad was able to do that. We had a great year, and not so much in 18, but in 19, we came back stronger than ever. And that was a lot, a lot of part of Chad's doing. And during that time, when that growth spurt was coming back, I saw the leadership skills in Chad had and his way of coming in as an outsider and not being technical, but also not forcing himself on the team as more of a, hey, I'm going to sit back. I'm going to try to understand what this is all about. I want to listen to you and hear what your pain points are, what your strengths are, and how I can fit in and best manage and lead. So I had reservations, but because Chad does not have a technical, engineering or even construction background. But I think that has helped us because it gives us a broader approach, a broader view of what else might be out there that he can bring in as far as tools and resources to help overall in the operation of the company.

Yeah. So a couple interesting notes there for our listeners. So he's not from the industry. You've got a business that has a heavy technical component in the engineering field function. Right. And construction science and just kind of all the stuff that goes with that. He didn't have a background in that, but you had the benefit of watching his leadership capabilities through a navigate a storm, basically. And how he did that's really interesting, I think, for our audience to kind of hear that experience for kind of how you got there. Because a lot of people think, well, I've got to bring in somebody as my integrator that's from my industry. If they don't know my industry, how could they possibly do it? Right. Or if they haven't done the job, how could they possibly lead these people that are these different kinds of technicians? So that's pretty interesting. So, all right, so you see that that's promising. There's some really powerful things that you see demonstrated firsthand. And so then again, this question of, wow, could Chad be my integrator? Starts to bubble up. Talk to me about kind of the first conversations that the two of you had around that topic.

Well, so what I did is as part of traction, in one of my clarity breaks, I took just a white piece of paper and I just started scribbling down my visionary integrator wish list. And it was probably what, four pages long of things that I do well and what I want to keep doing and things that I don't want to do. And so Chad and I have actually used that over the years and basically just go through in our weekly same page meetings and check things off. And I'm in the process right now. We basically checked everything off. And now I'm going back through and re upping the wish list to see what else there may be out there that I may not be doing well. And I need to delegate and elevate first.

Okay, so you take the time to do the brain dump, get the wish list out there, the two of you talk about it. So I really want to kind of go through step by step of sort of how the transition started to unfold. So Chad, he shares that with you, you talk about it. What did the next steps kind of look like from there?

Yeah, I think it's just maybe helpful to kind of talk through 2018 a little bit. As far as, you know, we were late in responding to, I guess, the downturn in sales. And so a lot of that is just how much we care about taking care of our employees. And making sure they have a place here. And so payroll in an engineering and construction firm is by far the largest expense item. And so we were a little late in making some changes there. So we had lost quite a bit of money those first four months of the year. If I look at 2018 and kind of grade myself, I had some success in sales, but luckily we benefited from some existing clients. You know, a lot of our work is just seasonal. And hey, they didn't have projects that previous year, but freezes on capital spending that changed. But I think a lot of my role just seemed to be being a strong leadership team member and helping, you know, bring us all together and on the same page. And maybe some of that just having some confidence or hope within, you know, a time of crisis. You know, Matt's certainly an optimist. It's one of his greatest strengths. But, you know, just maybe be able to help us craft a plan, execute that plan, to be able to, you know, circle the wagons a little bit and then put a plan together to start growing. So I really don't remember some of the real specific things, obviously some point in time in that, maybe summer to fall. We started talking about it with an eye to do that on January 1st of 2019. But yeah, the actual specific conversations don't stand out to me too much.

Okay, so it's early 2019 then, though, and you sit in that seat. And as I recall, you weren't just sitting in that seat at that point. Right. So you're still straddling both the what, the biz dev seat and the integrator seat at that time?

Yeah, in the biz dev marketing seat. And then I'm the integrator. And then I have a director of construction reporting to me, I have a director of engineering reporting to me. That would be Matt and then Matt's wife, you know, our 51% majority owner, Julie, handling the HR Finance Administration.

Right.

So you're. There's lots of things in there. Right. So you've got, you're sitting in multiple seats. Of course, as the integrator, you've got lots of reports. And just of note there, two of those reports happen to be owners of the company. One of those reports happens to also be your visionary. So you've got all that kind of stuff coming at you. How did you feel?

And I felt good. You know, I enjoyed it. And I felt like I had this skill set. I didn't feel like I got to utilize it in previous jobs. So, you know, we happen to be start off to A great start to the year ended up being a record year in the company's history for profit. So that made those type of things easier. You know, the main thing was still just working through getting the right people in the right seat and making sure, I guess, we were a highly functional leadership team. And so I think there were certainly some stressful moments in that and, you know, I guess deep conversations and healthy conflict and things like that. But that took some navigating revenue and.

Profit cures a lot, right?

Yeah.

When you think about it starting out and we're kind of focused on you sitting in multiple seats, what percentage of your time do you feel like you were able to spend as the integrator versus in the biz dev seat?

Yeah, I think at least 60% as the integrator.

Okay.

We went at that time to more of a fractional CFO model, and there was a lot I played to and really helping out in the financial seat and making sure we had good forecasting tools, you know, through working with a fractional cfo, but just really getting some different tools that help us know exactly where we're headed. Our visibility and the nature of what we sell can only stretch out sometimes three to six months in engineering, maybe six or nine months of construction. And so you got to see if the winds start changing and quickly pivot.

So what's it like as the integrator to have owners of the company reporting to you?

Well, I mean, it's certainly challenging, but it's also a blessing. I mean, they're huge assets. They've built this company for 21 years now. So, you know, 17 years before I even stepped a foot in here. And they've done every single role. So any question I had between the two of them, they could probably answer it, you know, so that's a blessing. But, you know, I think that part of the role I played is being able to, I guess, you know, speak candidly and directly. And so there's a lot of trust that they extended to me, and there was just a lot of, I guess, capital that I had from our long history of friendship. So I think sometimes just kind of leaning into those situations and being able to say hard truths or create, you know, address conflict. But they can be taxing when you're doing like that with an owner of the company. But, man, it's been a blessing, and it's all worked out.

So the dynamic that we see a lot is tough for the integrator because, you know, they have owners. Maybe behaving badly is what I would call it. And the owner will, when they are being told something or they're getting news that they really don't want to hear, they'll reach for that owner card and kind of want to pull that out and go, well, that doesn't apply to me, or whatever. And kind of try to back their integrator off that way. Matt, how did you resist that urge? Or did you. Did you give into that at some times you feel. And how did you work when you had Chad now holding you accountable for the seat you're still sitting in on the leadership team below the visionary?

Well, I had to get used to, quote, sitting on my hands and just listening to how discussions were unfolding. And my biggest challenge is, will they come to the conclusion that I would normally, because I feel like I have an answer immediately and I could just shut it down and move on to the next topic. But that's not how you grow a good team. They need to think like minded. And Chad was the first person that I really didn't have to question much or really even. There may have been some redirection in some of the items and issues that we addressed. But I think for me, the biggest challenge has been navigating the other owner in the company. And she's a big personality and she's more of a contrarian. I'm an optimist, and it takes a lot of patience sometimes for me to figure out, or not so much figure out, but determine how best to respond to certain situations and how long to let those situations go on. So Chad's done a great job of that, and he's also been a bit of a marriage counselor in some respects because there's been some knockout drag outs in some of our meetings that have not been pleasant.

Yeah. So let's come back to that because I want to kind of talk about the owner's box side of things in a sec. But you talked about how Chad was kind of the first person where you weren't really nervous, I guess, about him coming to the right conclusion or the conclusion that you would have without it taking forever and lots of missteps along the way. So is there a discipline that was really helpful other than the fact that Chad was naturally wired in that way? Is there something intentional that the two of you would do to help kind of make sure that you were aligned and talk about maybe even two halves of the same brain? What would you do? How would you make that happen?

Well, I think we've done a really good job of holding to a weekly same Page. I think in some of the POS models, it says make sure you do it every month at least. But we've been pretty diligent about doing it every week. And I think it's more of, hey, we feel like we need to. To make sure we're not missing out or we're not helping each other like we can and should. So I think. And that's a testament to our relationship as well, just as a friend.

So tell me what your same page meetings look like. So you're doing them weekly. How long are they? Where are they? You know, how does it unfold?

Yeah, Chad, you want to roll with that?

Yeah, sure. They're an hour in length, and we vary it. So we do some in an office here or we do in a conference room. We actually use traction tools or any OS software to be able to. We have our own scorecard, we have our own ideas, and then really capturing the to dos to make sure that we're getting things done when they come up in that meeting. But then sometimes we do it way more casual, and we'll go to a restaurant for lunch, we'll go to happy hour, or we'll go do something fun. So we definitely vary it, but make sure it's productive. And I think, to Matt's credit, I think he's a good observer, and he would sit back, and I think that's very difficult. I mean, I think all of us have taught a kid how to Dr. Drive. And that's a scary thing, that hand over the wheel. You know, in Matt's case, if I can use this analogy of a car he built and for hand that over to me and watch me drive and maybe even see me about to make a mistake and let me make that mistake. He's done a great job with that. But then he makes, you know, a note there, and he'll bring that to the same page meeting and we'll talk through it. And so I think, you know, there's been times more he's erred on the side of, oh, no, Matt, that's not an end around. You can absolutely go to that person and talk about that. But he's very cautious to make sure he's supporting me.

I think now it's to a point where Chad's office is my old office, so I trust him enough to sit in my old chair, and he's doing a great job.

Wow, that says a lot. Chad, I think your comparison of, you know, to teaching a kid to drive, I can remember one of my boys in particular, you Know, teaching them to drive and, you know, sitting in that passenger seat and trying to teach, but not over teach and not freak them out and all that kind of stuff. And coming back after maybe, you know, 45 minutes or an hour of driving and my abs being like exhausted just from kind of being in full clinch mode the whole time. So maybe that's a good way to think about what the visionary is going through as they're sitting there watching the integrator do this and trying to hold back. And so I love that comparison. So when you're in that same page, so I love that you do kind of different formats. You've got your regular, you're doing it weekly. You know, a lot of people, I hear they kind of get together weekly, you know, shorter period of time, but they, it's a lot of times it gets too transactional. They don't make the space or take the time to kind of open up into the deeper, sometimes meatier, sometimes more impactful things that they need to talk about that are coming up that they have seen they're not aligned on or they are concerned they may be getting off the same page. For when do those come up? When do you see kind of the big things, not just the little things, but what's the situation you've noticed when those bigger, meatier, many times more difficult issues seem to get talked about?

You know, I'd say I've noticed that actually when we travel together, I think some of the conversations I really remember where we talked about the really, you know, like I said, impactful, meaningful things, the long range things, those have happened as we've been at a conference and then the breaks in between where we're, you know, taking some hikes or we've gone and done something else or just, you know, broken bread. And that seems to be a place where, you know, Matt can really, you know, speak in that area. I think within the same page. Mina, I think you bring up a great point that. And I think there's some responsibility on me. But there's times that, yeah, it does become transactional or you try not to create more work. But yeah, I think that's a good reminder, you know, to myself, I gotta ask those big questions and make sure we're, we're looking at a 30,000 foot view because Matt's gonna have opinions and he's always got thoughts and they're running and I need to make sure, you know, they're being shared.

Right. Matt, I've noticed some integrators seem to have a kind of a superpower, of figuring out the code for their visionary, of kind of when to ask them a certain type of question or give them a certain type of news, either when or how to say it in a way that helps them be more receptive to whatever it is that they need to talk about. Has Chad done that for you? Have you noticed that he has kind of a not a sneaky way, but an intentional way about when he talks to you about certain things?

You know, I think it's more of the pulse of the same page meeting. And he's just direct, whatever we need to talk about, he puts it down, he lists it as an issue, and we dig in. Sometimes it may take a few weeks, a few sessions for us to really get to the heart of it, but, you know, we at least open up that box and we start that discussion, and there may be some study on both sides that need to happen. But, you know, overall, I'd prefer to just get it out there and let's start talking about it, because I'm going to be ruminating in the back of my mind the whole time, and I would prefer to just have it out there and let's talk like that.

Chad, is that how it feels to you? So, you know, the examples I see are, you know, people will do it around a meal because they know when somebody's eating kind of puts them into a different head space. And maybe they'll do it before the meal or after the meal or whatever others. You know, it's really just kind of a let it fly kind of a relationship where it doesn't matter where or when or how. It's just we just kind of get it out there and pull the band aid off and go at it. What's your feeling for how this is working for you, too?

I mean, I don't know if I want to share my secrets to Matt on that, but no, I think definitely the setting helps. So I think sometimes it is getting out of the office and changing that setting. You know, we're very aligned on the vision and where we want to go. And so I think if there's disagreement, it's on, you know, maybe priorities or different, you know, the path to get to where we're going. You know, I think it's starting and reminding of, you know, hey, Matt, here's your vision. Here's where you want to go. I'm in alignment to that, and then maybe just kind of reframing that in some way. Hey, we considered this, or have you considered the consequence of this decision? Or does this really meet that vision? I definitely don't do that normally in the moment of when maybe that tension or conflict first came up, I sit on that a lot of times. Just depends on who's around. But certainly don't do that within the leadership team or in public or if I know that one of us is already maybe a little bit off center on our temperament or something like that. And then, yeah, wait for a time where we can break some bread and then bring it back up and kind of reframe it.

Right. Love that. Sounds like a little bit of both. Right. So you're working on the trust foundation, so you're able to kind of let it fly, but if the context isn't right to kind of have that discussion and you've got a more intentional way to approach things. So I love that. Matt, I want to get back to you and Julie and you mentioned kind of your partnership in this business. And listen, there's no way that I could work in a business with my spouse. And I think I've shared that with you before. I marvel at people who can do it and do it well. And I've watched firsthand as you guys have really been amazing in how you find a way to have this really awesome personal relationship with each other, this really awesome business relationship with each other. So I think that's. You're such a wonderful example of how you do that. You know, structurally, you know, we have this owner's box, right, that, you know, it sits up above the accountability chart so the owners can get fed and get what they need. They can have their say, they get their share of the profits. They, you know, have their decision making on the biggie. Biggie, you know, the most critical decisions of the business and then they empower the leadership team to go and make that happen. The two of you sit in that owner's box. Then the two of you also sit in active seats in the leadership team. Talk to us about what's really been the key. How does that work? How do you guys do so well at making that work?

I think it's patience is the key and kind of knowing who we are. I mean, like I said, Julie is the contrarian and I'm the optimist. So I've learned to take any comments that may be extreme, just kind of not so much in the true sense of what it means, but just as a spur the moment comment. So Chad has done a great job and I think that's one of the benefits of having Chad in place as the integrator is he has same page meetings with Julie as well as with me. And sometimes not for an end around, but I'll hear some of the issues that may be going on and I may not know the full detail, but I'm. He'll say, wow, that sounds pretty like a big issue. But then Chad will put it on our issue list on the traction tools for our meeting, our same page, and he'll also fill in some detail and I'll look at it and say, oh, yeah, okay, that's what that's about. So it is a challenge. And I find that there are times where I've got highly elevated anxiety and stress, but it's usually I carry the stress internally and if I would just get it out quicker and not ruminate, then I would be a lot better. So that's one thing that Chad's done a great job of helping us get that information out, address it sooner, and be able to move on past and make good decisions in the meantime.

Great. So when Chad stepped into this integrator role full time, you got other folks on the leadership team. I'd actually like to get both of your perspectives on this. Sometimes we see a reaction leadership team where they're kind of like, wait a minute. And people are kind of. I don't know if competitive is the right word, but they're hesitant when somebody steps into that integrator seat because now they're going to be reporting to them. Sometimes they're like, oh, thank you. This is so good. This is, you know, the visionary trying to play both roles has just been beating us to death. And so this is what we need. And so they kind of have been pushing for it themselves in your case. So Chad, when Chad moved into that seat, Matt, what was your perspective on how the rest of the leadership team reacted to that initially?

Initially? Well, we had some resistance. We had a few individuals that did not want to report directly to Chad. They didn't feel he was qualified. They didn't feel he was a good fit for the organization. They just thought he was someone, a friend that Matt and Julie brought in. But through time and through just his hard work and dedication and determination and our understanding and our seeing that Chad did have what it takes, we were able to work through that. And some individuals are no longer with the company that were resistant, and some others have been able to grow into that acceptance and see the true value that Chad brings.

Chad, what was your experience of that? What was it like for you?

There's been a lot of change. I mean, I Think as far as from before I came to the company, Matt and Julie, only two holdovers, I guess from a leadership team at that time. So I think from the leadership team perspective, maybe there was really only one individual, but I really invested in that relationship with that individual. And I think for me, I had kind of decisions to make as it relates to the technical side. Am I going to spend a bunch of time trying to learn what they already know, or am I going to try and compliment them and bring my strengths to where, you know, they're not as strong and then make their life better? And so I feel like I was able to do a good job of that and gain trust at the end of the day. I mean, this particular individual, I mean, I think when we look back, we know we put someone in a position beyond maybe their capabilities and then we poured a lot into that to try and make that work. So once we reversed that decision, things got a lot easier. And then the relationship with everyone who's come up to the leadership team since then, I think, you know, one, I've had a hand in that or I've had a working relationship with them before that, that, that type of all that's in the rearview mirror, I guess now.

Right. Love that. You know, it's. The formula is a little different for the initial ramp up for any integrator, depending on, you know, the relationships that are already in place, how familiar they are. But it's important to figure that out and work intentionally on those relationships. It's critical to have the support of the visionary that says, look, this is what we're doing and you need to get on board with it. And then trying to find a way to have those early wins, which you had some success. Right. So things started to work. And so all that I'm glad to see work out as positively as it has for the two of you and for the business. Chad, another question for you. We talk about the journey to mastery for integrators. So you learn it kind of at some level when you're starting out, you know, the visionary has to kind of learn how they're going to work with an integrator. But like any other craft, whether it's, you know, being a sales professional or a finance professional or a engineer or whatever, you keep learning, you keep working at it. What are some of the things that have been helpful for you to help you continue along your journey to mastery as an integrator?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's quite a few. I think I entered the career at C1s and they were well into EOS and it resonated with me right off the bat. And so, you know, certainly, you know, read the books to an extent, but also got distracted by, you know, the crisis we were in and the work. But then I'd be, you know, more of an observer when we would, you know, gather with our implementer and go through the quarterlies and the annual and was learning things that way, but certainly doing the Integrator Mastery Forum and being in one of the cohorts, there was a good stepping stone. And then now really getting involved on a bigger scale with that group, you know, so one, I mean, it's so great having the friendship I have with Matt and you know, knowing that we never really feel alone there, but we are in different roles. And so what's been helpful to me is to get around other people, realize that there's very few unique challenges to these businesses. They're all just, you know, a lot of the same challenges with a little bit different tweak or, you know, different dressing on them. But then really understanding that even these roles, I mean Rocket feels onto some. There is, there are integrators and there are visionaries and they can look a lot alike across the companies. So also realizing that, hey, the way Matt's acting is common with 75% of visionaries out there. So why don't I just understand that and gain some empathy and then try and leverage what's the strength out of that? So yeah, certainly, you know, being around the group, sharing the challenges you're going through, helping them walk through the challenges, you learn so much from just the best practices that are shared.

So talk a little bit about that. So when you're meeting with the Integrator Mastery Forum and you know, obviously there's things that you may want to get input on that are your own situation, it's clear to see how you learn from that. Talk about how you learn from when other people ask for help, just kind of explain how that works.

Yeah, I mean I think there's just, there's simple thing from resources and best practices or you're just not in, you know, the thick, you're not on the couch, I guess, getting the counseling and you're getting to be this third party observer and I think you can really start then relating how that applies to situations you've been in and just take that counsel for your own. So yeah, it's just been a huge blessing because a lot of different ways to try and be successful or navigate through situations and it's just great to get other people's perspectives. So you're not just maybe pounding your head against the wall trying to do the same thing that didn't work for you yesterday.

Love that. All right, Matt, so I want you to describe, as best you can, the difference in your world from when you were that visionary, sitting in the integrator seat, sitting in the director of engineering seat, being in the owner's box, doing all of that stuff, trying to do it the best that you could in tough environments along the way to now where you can purely sit in the visionary seat with a strong integrator by your side. How do you describe the difference? How is your world different?

Well, my world is basically outside of the office now. I'm still in the business, but I'm not in the day to day of the business. I feel confident, I trust what Chad is doing in running the day to day. So my role now is really more of a who list. Like who do I need to touch, who do I need to just check in and see how they're doing. So I feel like I'm more of a kind of a mentor, just a sounding board for some of our senior managers and senior leadership team so that I don't lose touch with the company or the individuals. And they also continue to hear my vision and make sure that they're hearing it from the top. Because that's really what I want to do. I want to keep that 3, 5, 10 year outlook. And, you know, I don't want to go against anything contrary to what we're talking about this year. But there's also that big picture that I want to keep reinforcing and let people know, hey, we're not going to be doing this exactly the same forever. There's better ways to do this. There's more things that we can do.

You talked before in the earlier state about work, life, balance and the struggle there. We talk a lot about EOS life. How's your work life balance, work now?

It's great. I basically work from home. I've got a great office. I'm looking over my backyard right now. So it's a relaxing place for me to contemplate and do deep thought, which is what I really, really get the most out of. And those periods of time where there's no one in the house and I'm either digging into a new topic or I'm reviewing a legal document that requires that focus, that intense processing to truly understand and make sure that we're staying out of trouble or we are Providing the best benefits for our employees. And that's where I think I bring the most value because that's where my experience is. I used to have to do that in the office with chaos running around. Now I can focus on the big picture for the big things, the big rocks that need to be knocked out as we grow.

Great. Well, while I've got you guys here, before I let you go, I want to try to get one nugget from each of you. And what I'm looking for is we got a lot of folks listening to this that are visionaries, are integrators in their own right, or they think they might be. They're trying to figure it out and they're wherever they are in that journey from the stage of just crystallizing what this structure is to getting connected with their complementary counterpart to actually maximizing the relationship so they are wherever they are along that path. So from your seat as a visionary and as an integrator who have been doing this for a while and doing it well, what's one little nugget, one little piece of advice that you would pass out to, to one of them that may help them get there a little bit quicker, may help them get there with a little bit less of the pain that you guys have had to fight your way through. One nugget from each of you. Either one of you can start. Chad, you wanna start?

Sure. I think as it relates to the visionary integrator, just invest in the relationship. It takes trust, mutual respect, self awareness, empathy, and then just excellent communication. And I think there's no real way to have a healthy leadership team without a healthy visionary integrator relationship. And then you're not going to have a healthy organization without a healthy leadership team. So I think just really making that investment in that relationship and I think at times it doesn't feel like work or it may not feel like it's the most productive thing, but I think it has just such a trickle down effect.

Great love that we often say, as the leadership team goes, so goes the rest of the company. Well, as the visionary integrator goes, so goes the rest of the leadership team. So a lot to that. That's a great one. Matt, what do you got?

Well, as a visionary, that was in both seats, we went through two other situations where we had candidates in there for integrator and those did not work out. They're big challenges. That was of course, prior to Chad coming on board. But the biggest thing that I know is that you as a visionary, you gotta learn to trust your instinct and listen, listen to that inner voice. If there's anything that's contrary or that's bothering you, you need to listen to that and make sure that you address it because that's usually where the truth is coming out. And if it's not a good fit, then you're going to hear it internally. So that's my biggest recommendation to visionaries is listen to your gut feel.

Love that. Well, Matt, Chad, I'm so grateful to both of you for taking a little time out of your day to spend with us and, and share a part of your story. I know it's gonna be really helpful for our listeners. And again, it's nice to learn from others. Chad talked a little bit about that and I'm so passionate about visionary entrepreneurs and entrepreneurial companies and what they can do. And I just see every day how critical. Bringing the integrator into that equation just really lets it all work. It lets those impacts happen in our communities, in the employees of those companies, across industries. They just really make things move. And so thank you for doing your part to make that wheel turn. And to our listeners, thanks so much for listening. We're grateful that you take a little bit of your time to listen to these conversations. And if you're getting value out of, if you're learning things, please take a second to leave us a review. If you like it, that helps more people find out about it and we want as many people to be helped along that path as we can. So until next time, go rock it. Thanks so much for joining me today. I really hope you were inspired by our guests. If you're interested to discover how your current visionary integrator relationship compares to the relationship you'd like, I invite you to go visit rocketfueluniversity.com and take our free Crystallizer assessment. You'll get both your Visionary and Integrator Indicator score and that's going to help you figure out your next step. How do you get rid of the frustration and uncertainty that so often gets in the way of running a successful business? Master the metrics that matter. In April, we're releasing the latest addition to the EOS Mastery Series data. Harness your numbers to go from uncertain to unstoppable. To teach you how, get excited to master your data component and pre order your copy now@eosworldwide.com traction library.