Is This a Pizza-Level Decision or a High-Level Decision? | David Kolbe and Amy Bruske

You can't have someone who does it all. So you have to pick and choose. What do you need the most? And what do you need the least? And making those choices and then having a fit so that you're not just kind of settling, for lack of a better word, for someone who looks good on paper.

Hey, everybody. This is Mark C. Winters, co author of Rocket Fuel and expert EOS implementer. Welcome to the Rocket Fuel podcast where visionary and integrator duos from entrepreneurial companies share a behind the scenes look at their relationship. These amazing leaders blend their unique skills to create what we call rocket fuel. Today, I'm excited to welcome David Colby and Amy Brusky of Colby Corp. A company that helps businesses increase their productivity, hiring and performance by measuring and analyzing.

How people take action.

David is the CEO and visionary and Amy is the president, integrator and David's stepsister. David and Amy have been helping companies find integrators for several years and have witnessed both first and secondhand what it takes to make a fantastic visionary integrator team. In this episode, David and Amy hone in on what to look for in an integrator hire, what integrators seeking work should look for in a visionary, and where to start your search. We're going to begin the show where David and Amy describe how they joined Colby Corp. Let's dive in.

The company's been around for 47 years. It was founded by my mom, Kathy. Colby wasn't doing what it's doing now. Originally it was a publishing and mail order educational resources company. So, yeah, I got involved technically when I was a little kid because my mom started it literally in the back bedroom and then took over the carport and turned that into a little office and then eventually moved out. So I was doing stuff, whatever it was, collating, stuffing envelopes, but in a real way, I got involved. Well, actually, Amy, you should take over then because then you were the first one who was working in the company. I went off to college and I worked in politics in Washington, D.C. for a while. Then I went to law school, became a lawyer, worked as a lawyer. But while I was being a lawyer, Amy started working in the business. So why don't you take it over from there?

Right. So I came in as working in the corporate world as a corporate trainer and working with franchisees and operations and all those kinds of things. And so I came in just to do some sales training because my husband was a professional baseball player and I needed a little bit of a job where there was some flexibility Once we decided to have kids because it was really hard to have these two careers going on if we were going to have kids.

I bet.

I came in and I immediately loved it because it was this combination of my love for human behavior. I really wanted to be a psychology major in. In college, but I was a business major because I thought that was more practical. And I loved that too. So it kind of combined the business and the psychology. And I never left. So I was there a few years before. Then David came on for real.

Okay, so then you're both kind of. David's in, away comes back, Amy, you come in, stay basically. Right. And so then you kind of roll through, I'm sure all kinds of different roles and responsibilities along the way. How long ago did you kind of get to where we are now in terms of the structure of, again, what we would traditionally call a visionary and integrator to type of role?

Yeah. So I'll start again. I came in since I was a lawyer. I was general counsel initially when I came back in, then became president and Kathy Colby was the CEO and us didn't really exist then and Rocket fuel didn't exist then. So we didn't call her the visionary and me the integrator, which is good because I would have not been a good integrator.

So. Question for you on that, David. So was she sort of a classic visionary?

Yes.

Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

Yeah, still is. She's the classic.

She's at 82, right?

She still is in a different way. So that's something we can talk about kind of once we answer your question. But she was also, you know, I think as a lot of visionaries, she was filling both of those seats. I mean, she was the classic visionary. That's really where her passion and her heart was. But she was also a small business person, an entrepreneur who started a couple of different businesses, really three, and was used to, hey, when you start a business, you're everything and then you hire some other people and you aren't everything, but you're still probably visionary and integrator. She knew that she wanted to be more the visionary. So that kind of happened eventually. And Amy and I, I think while Kathy was still in as CEO and really in that visionary seat, Amy and I kind of took over different parts of the business and we were more co integrators as much as she would let us.

Right. We were trying to be integrators for her, but I think she was so miserable in the business because she really didn't realize the value she thought she had to be both.

Yeah.

And it was hard for her to give some of those things up too. Even if she didn't want. Was hard to let it go.

What was tough for her about that, do you think? So I see this letting go process for a lot of visionaries. And like when Gino and I first wrote the book, my assumption coming in was that it was about control. But as I've talked to more and more visionaries, what I've found is it's really about, on some level, it's trust. And so for Kathy, what was it, what was it that made it hard for her to kind of let go of things?

David, I don't think it was trust for her. I think it really was that she felt like she could be good at all things. It reminds me of a conversation I had with Dan Sullivan once where of strategic coach, where he said, once I really figured out my unique ability, and he credits some of Colby for that too. Got my Colby result, I was finally able to let go and didn't feel like I had to be good at all of those things too. So for Kathy, it was her baby, as most visionaries have that too. But I do think she would say to us, and she still says to us, thank goodness you guys came into the business because I trusted you implicitly. And she actually had a situation where she brought somebody in to run the business and kind of be the integrator before we were even involved. And he completely stole intellectual property. It was just a horrible situation. So the trust was there, but I think it was the feeling, the need that she had to do all those things. And maybe David and I didn't have as much experience at that point then, too, but we had a very interesting experience when we offered to take over the business so that she could be free. Cause she was miserable. Miserable.

So let's talk about that. Well, first, how long did kind of the time period last of where you're both back in, in your case, David, Amy, you're in. You're kind of both being some form of integrator for her, so you're taking on more and more responsibility. How long did that whole period last before you got to the conversation you just alluded to?

Gosh, five years, something like that. And then that first conversation with her. I think Amy and I envisioned her being more out of the business than she ended up being. She loved it. She jumped at the opportunity, but it was still hard for her not to be involved. And some of it was really basic stuff, like she still had an office in the office and would come in even when she was no longer the CEO, she was still kind of, we wanted to bump her up to be really a true visionary. I think that was the next step was, hey, you don't, we're not, you're not going to get bogged down in the integrator kind of stuff in the day to day. But she would come in the office and as, you know, somebody who started companies and you know, raised them, it was hard for her to be in the office and see something going on, hear about it and not get sucked into weighing in even if it didn't matter. And some of that's also her personality and she, you know, she's got enough of follow through from a Colby Speak standpoint that you know, she does some of those systems and operating stuff that's just kind of natural for her. So I think the next evolution was when we said, and she agreed this wasn't like we forced it on her. She agreed that yeah, she shouldn't have an office in the office and that way she won't be in all the time. She won't see those little things that are happening that suck her back in. So I think that was the next level of transition. And then that was another five years probably running like that where she was more of a true visionary. And Amy and I had separate parts of the business so we were kind of co integrators, probably more Amy than me. And then the next phase was when she split off from Colby Corp and started doing her own thing. No longer chairman of the board, no longer visionary. We were starting to run on EOs, but we didn't. I mean that was an interesting thing we can talk about was we knew some of this stuff because we knew Gino, particularly Amy, and we talked to him as he was even writing Traction.

We were dabbling. Yeah, we were dabbling, which is we do not recommend everybody. It wasn't, or implement, I should say wasn't until the magic of CJ Dubay in our lives when everything took off.

Yeah.

So, okay, so we've got kind of one five year version of how it's operating and then another five year version. And so you start to get more serious, I'm guessing, about structure and intentional about your EOS implementation. CJ comes in to help you implement. You know, we really start to. Is that when the two of you kind of really settled into the visionary and integrator seats that you're in today?

Yeah, that's, that's when we Really, I mean, when we went through the process of really starting from scratch and CJ started working with us and she said, hey, you guys, you're each doing a little bit of both roles. And I do think that both of us have strengths as visionaries and as integrators. We kind of both have that for sure. And she said, you're really going to have to pick and separate off and make this happen. And David and I were kind of like, yeah, okay, well, who should it really be? Our team said, it's so obvious, you guys. I can't believe you're even asking the question out loud. David is the visionary, Amy's the integrator. So then it became so much easier and that clarity of roles and not having to have both of us. We were that typical company where two of us were making decisions together a lot of the time that we didn't need to do that. Our own leadership team had to come to both of us or it was slowing things down for sure.

It wasn't that we were necessarily both making all the decisions, but it would still slow us down because we had our areas. Like I was more finance and technology and I was doing more of the integrator stuff. And to be really honest, even though I think it's much more clear now, I'm the visionary. And I really do feel like that sitting in that seat and putting a label on it and talking about it, making it clear has made it easier for me to really fulfill that role. I still do maybe a little bit more of the finance stuff than a really pure visionary is supposed to. Maybe a little bit more the technology. Some of it's just because I'm interested. It's also a little bit of an expertise.

But I think that's really key in a strengths based company is David really has strengths around finance, first of all, and is interested in some technology. Plus he's legal. I'm not going to all of a sudden start being the lawyer for the company just because I'm the integrator. So there are some skills and experiences that we bring to the table where it makes sense. I'm much more visionary when it comes to what are we going to be training people on and how are we going to handle our consultants and what kind of content are we going to create? Because that's what I've done for many years. So when it comes to presenting and training, then that's where I kind of take more of that role.

Yeah, the clarity of the roles is so important. Right. So however, the two Piece puzzle kind of fits together knowing, all right, this stuff's in my lane, this stuff's in your lane. And we complement each other right, in a good duo. We've got that between both of us. We've got it all covered right pretty well. Then the things that we maybe overlap on, we talk about those and who's going to take the lead and maybe I'll have some good ideas to help you take the lead on that. But at the end of the day, it's going to be your call or however. Just getting that clarity is so important. It was interesting to hear you say that. The team, it was obvious to them and I see that frequently when the team knows they've been living it and so it's crystal clear to them kind of who's who. So. All right, so now let's kind of zoom out a little bit and talk a little bit more because you're in a pretty unique position just by the nature of your business, where you get to see lots of companies, lots of people kind of dealing with this and they're trying to sort it out themselves. And so just for our listeners, explain to them. So Colby uses a conative mindset as the foundation of your model. Explain to people what that means and how it's different from other types of profiling systems that they may be familiar with.

David's the detail guy, and then I'll give the summary. Right?

Okay. I'll try not to be too detailed, but here's the overview. There are three parts of the mind and this concept goes back literally thousands of years to Plato. Thinking, feeling, doing. So we all know the thinking part, how smart you are, what you've learned, what those kinds of skills are. Lots of assessments, look at that. Feeling is affective. It's your values, your preferences, your desires. There are lots of assessments for that, like Myers Briggs predictive index, disc, all kinds of them. We focus on this third part of the mind. It's called the conative part of the mind. And it looks at the way we take action. So it's not how you think or feel, but it's the way you do. It's that doing execution, action oriented part of who you are. So the Colby index identifies for people, hey, these are your strengths in this third part of the mind. They don't change over time, but when you get the results, it says, for instance, one of these, one of the things we look at is the way we deal with gathering and sharing information. What we call factfinder. Amy and I are very different. I'm a person who instinctively asks tons of questions, gets information, justifies my decisions, asks for justifications. When people reporting to me give a suggestion like, oh, this is the direction I think we should go, you know, it's why. And I drill down, drill down Amy's more big picture, you know, give me the executive summary. What are the three key points? Don't give me 30, tell me the three key ones. And she takes that bit of information, those bits of information to make decisions and take action. That's what we look at and that's what we help our clients use to understand things. Like with me and Amy, okay, you guys are different. So how do you make that a win or you guys are exactly the same. How do you make that a win and not either competition or conflict.

Then when it comes to visionaries and integrators, obviously the number one thing that we hope to do is help visionaries figure out exactly what kind of integrator they need, who is the best fit unique to that visionary strengths. So it really does have to look at, as David said, all three parts of the mind. It has to be someone who's aligned with your values. But then how do you need them to execute? And I think that totally depends on the business as far as how old is the business, how quickly are they growing, what type of industry are they in? There are a couple other factors there that would say what are the best ways of taking action for that position based on who is the visionary and the business needs to.

Yeah, we talk about a three piece puzzle, right, where you know, you've got the visionary and the integrator. Obviously the two pieces we're trying to fit together and then the business is the third piece. And so they've got to fit together well, but then they got to fit together well with the business. You know, some of the factors that you were, you were laying out. And y' all have a tool that helps look at this piece, right? How the two fit together. And you can take your assessment and each can take that individually and it can kind of give them things to watch out for. Things where it's going to be easy, things where it's going to be hard, all that kind of stuff. What's that called?

That's right. It's called the Colby comparisons A to a report. So it takes one person's col B A which is the assessment David mentioned, and another A and each person gets a report. So if, Mark, if you and I were working together, I would get a report about working with you. You would get your unique report about working with me. And we basically say, here's when you guys are in the zone and here's where you might have some potential challenges. And there's really no best combination. It's just knowing that information helps you anticipate where you might get tripped up or where you might get slowed down. So David and I are really different, as he said, in gathering information and how we deal with detail. But we're really similar when it comes to driving innovation and change. And, you know, I'm an eight in Quick Start and he's a seven. Meaning that we start the problem solving process by saying what hasn't been done before. What are some of the possibilities? We'll brainstorm and push change. That can be good because we'll agree on, no, we really need to switch it up. Or that can be a challenge because we could have competing ideas. We could have an idea and I have a different idea of how to make changes. So just knowing that information changes the entire relationship because you understand that person's not going to change. This is hardwired. This is a need, and this is how this person really is most successful. So just knowing that shortcuts all kinds of things and increase the success.

Yeah, I agree that understanding is super helpful. And I've used that tool before. And just the understanding of where both parties are kind of coming from and what's natural for them and the permission that it's okay that neither party has to fully adapt to the other style. Right. Or the other person's wiring, but it's. We gotta find that place in between us where we can be effective and understand that and collaborate and so super, super helpful. So that's obviously something that a visionary or integrator is. They're kind of going through this matching process that we talk about could really help them. I'm also curious, just sort of. Every situation is different, but what sort of global patterns do you see in terms of integrators and. Or visionaries, where it's kind of like, you know what, Visionaries always seem to have this in their Colby score or some pattern or something, you see. Or integrators always seem to have this. Maybe we start with the visionaries.

I'll take the visionary one since I'm sitting in the visionary seat. As you said, there's not one. Oh, it's always one thing. But I think the trend is definitely what we call initiating Quick Start, or at least what we call react in Quick Start, they don't really prevent because a preventive Quick Start sticks to the status quo and finds what's working. Let's do more of that. That's pretty unusual to see in a visionary role. So they tend to have more initiating Quick Start on the other three things that we look at. It's a little more all over the map. Again, I've seen people who fit different patterns in Quick Start, even as visionaries, but that's the main thing. Before Amy jumps in with the integrator, I want to follow up a little bit. It relates to this question and also what Amy said. I totally agree with Amy that there's not one key either result for a visionary or one thing that always has to be there for the visionary and integrator combo. But I think the most consistent pattern with the visionary integrator combo is they complement each other, at least somewhere. I think it's very unusual for the two of them to have matching Colby scores, because, wow, then they'd be competing with each other all the time, you know, either on the visionary or the integrator side. It could be either one.

And that's why assessments help so much, because I think it's human nature sometimes that you're attracted to people who are just like you. So without using something that's a little bit of an objective measure, we pick someone who does things just like us. But, yeah, David, I totally agree. What we see is successful VI relationships has complementary strengths in several different areas.

Yeah, I see that as well. And it's funny that you bring it up. We hire people like us, left to our own, like me, Leave me to myself, and I will hire people that are just like me because I think they're great. And the reality is, in the business, certainly in the visionary integrator situation, that's the last thing you need is another visionary. Right? You don't need. You don't need somebody to double up on that. You need that opposite side. And sometimes that feels wrong to them, it feels abrasive to them, it feels counter to them. And so it's not natural. And so I've had a number of visionaries that are like, man, we shouldn't hire this person, but here's why you should. Here's why you should hire why you should. And then they get into it, and then they realize, okay, that was the missing piece that I needed. You know, maybe it wasn't the most comfortable pill to swallow, but, you know, it was exactly what we needed for the business.

I'll just follow up with just. Integrator strengths tend to be about the details and the follow through. Right. So this is someone who's going to really focus on making sure that we have accuracy in what we do and that systems are in place and processes are followed and they will naturally kind of be the person who's communicating this big picture down to people. And so we definitely see a little bit more in what we call the fact finder and follow through modes. So for me, I've got the three in fact finder, so I am more big picture. Luckily I have lots of. We have this amazing leadership team that has a lot of people that do that initiating fact finder. But I'm also accommodating and follow through, which means I am really personality wise, I'm really driven about efficiency. I'm constantly saying, how can we do this better, cheaper, faster, growing it. But my follow through makes sure that everything that we've got this plan that we're also on track with and following too. We do see that lovely diversity of talents where someone is starting with the ideas and driving change and the other person is kind of implementing it and making it real.

So that makes a lot of sense to me as well. There's another, you know, facet of this that I kind of refer to as altitude. And so if you think about the visionary as, you know, flying way up here and, you know, maybe the very front line of the company is flying, you know, somewhere lower, closer to the ground. Right. There's something to having the visionary and integrator not at the same altitude, but closer. And I talk about it in terms of being able to translate the language. Right. Where if they're too far apart, you know, while on your model, you know, they're complementary. So maybe they're different ends of the spectrum or scale on one of the factors. But if they're too far apart, how do we deal with the translation problem where they just don't seem to be speaking the same language?

Yeah, I mean, I think we definitely see that. I mean, so talking just really about me and Amy, because we had operated both at senior levels, but we hadn't really split to the visionary and integrator when we made that distinction. Clear, we're kind of already. I mean, we were at the same level, which was pretty high. And I think that's made it, I think that's made it relatively easy for the two of us because she's there. It's more, yes, she gets pulled down sometimes because she's operating at that more functional level inside the company. But there is no problem with the two of us both Meeting up there at higher levels when that's what we need to do.

That's an interesting challenge. Mark too. I think when visionaries are bringing in integrators from the outside, I do think that they hear, oh, this person is excellent in operations and they're sound. And sometimes they don't realize that there are CEOs or people running businesses that are not thriving, that are so operationally excellent, but they are kind of their peer. Right. You're bringing in another CEO or COO or something. I think sometimes they're not looking at people at those levels that can make excellent integrators. But there's another key is in order to be at the same level, you really have to be aligned with values. And I think that we can't talk about that enough. If you are not having the same desire to be going in the same direction in the same places and caring about the same things, it's hard for you both to be at that same level or closer to.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, of course that's kind of a non negotiable for bringing anybody into the organization is alignment around core values and then alignment around the, the direction for a visionary and integrator they both got to be bought into, at least generally. Here's where the ship's going because we can't take one ship to two places at the same time. So we've got to be aligned around that. And when I think about that altitude thing and I experience this sometimes, but it's sort of, it's an energy suck when they're not close together because. And David, maybe you used the words being able to go fast, but you know, if we can get it, so if you and Amy can kind of get it quickly, then boom, got it. We can move on. When you got to stop down and figure out how to make this make sense to somebody else, that just sort of feels like when I have to do that, that loses a lot of momentum and it's just sort of a draining, an energy draining kind of mode that creates frustration. And I know it creates frustration for them. So that's an important piece of the solve. I think when you think about. And when I talk about the book Rocket Fuel, I classically say somebody gives it to the visionary. They read the first chapter, which is about them and they absolutely love it because it's about them. And then they read about the integrator and they go, okay, that makes sense. And then they go, okay, but how do I get one? And that's when it gets Hard. And so if you were going to help a visionary who's at that stage of the game, or what would be your, your counsel, your advice to a vision that's kind of at that point in their process for how you might be able to help them, but then also other things they should be thinking about based on your experience.

Yeah, I mean, I'll start with the second part of that. You know what to look for. I mean, the most obvious place to look is inside your company, and there may be somebody who is ready to step up into that role. That was certainly the case for me and Amy. When it was time for we put a name on it, I stepped up to the visionary role and kind of left some of the integrator stuff behind because it was not a great fit for me. For us, it was straightforward. I mean, honestly, Amy was clearly the right person. So look inside. I know a lot of visionaries look inside their organization and they think either there's nobody who's going to be good at it or they're going to be good, but they're not quite ready. So then the next question is, okay, when you need to look outside, what do you do? And I think that's a trickier one because it really is. How do you find them? How do you recruit them? How are you sure? And some of it is. I mean, you asked earlier about trust. Honestly, I think one of the things that worked in our business and one of the reasons so many businesses are family run is because the trust factor is there. So both in the transition, for Kathy, my mom, handing it off, to me, the trust issue wasn't there because we had that personal relationship in addition. And by the way, Amy's also my stepsister, so I guess we should throw that in. She's also part of the family, but it's hard for visionaries to bring an integrator in from the outside and really trust them. So we mentioned core values. I think that's a key thing for me and Amy because before we went through the EOS process and really named them core values, we had already done that and we had identified them. We just called them different things. But she and I were so much on the same page with that we had a distinct culture. We did bring people in, but the discipline of making that clear, writing it down and being able to show that to people you're recruiting, and then I would say being frankly aggressive and putting it in front of them and saying, even if you think you want them to join you, saying, look, this is who we Are if this doesn't work for you, you shouldn't be here. Don't you know, yes, I'm going to sell you because I think you're great and I want you to come here, but I'm also going to tell you, and you're the one who has to make that decision because you truly know. You know, you try. When you get to know somebody and interview them, are they going to align with your core values? But I honestly challenge people and tell them so. Just last week I was interviewing somebody, and one of our core values is we're committed to our mission. We exist to help people understand their strengths so that they can use those strengths to achieve the things they care about, mostly in business, but in all parts of their lives. If somebody's committed to another mission in their professional life, like if they're committed to I want to be a billionaire by the time I'm 50, don't come to Colby Corp. There's nothing wrong with that mission. But if that's what you're committed to and that's going to be your polestar, you're not going to be committed to our mission, and it's not going to work, certainly at an integrator level, but honestly, almost at any level. So having those core values is such a key thing, I think. Amy, what do you think?

Well, I think the biggest challenge, and I'm not sure I have all the solutions in addition to that, is where do you recruit these people? And I do feel like the visionaries that I see who are most successful are hiring someone who loves the entrepreneurial world because it is just a unique bag. Right. Our lives are just strange and wonderful all at the same time. So growing a business, we take on incredible timelines. You know, we're always taking on too much. And yes, having eos, all the tools help us focus, but that is how we're. We're just wired that way. And so I think visionaries need to be making sure that they're focusing on getting integrators who love the entrepreneurial world. One of the things we found is some of our most successful hires had parents who were entrepreneurs.

Interesting.

Or they've been in that business before. Yeah, it's fascinating. Almost all of our leaders have had some connection in the entrepreneurial world.

So.

So I think that you go and you recruit them at different associations and groups and current business owners and that kind of thing. And then we have a process called Right Fit that at least will help you use an objective process to say, what do you need so there is an assessment that you fill out saying, here's how I need this person to take action on a daily basis because you can't have someone who does it all. So you have to pick and choose. What do you need the most and what do you need the least? And making those choices and then having a fit so that you're not just kind of settling, for lack of a better word, for someone who looks good on paper.

That reminds me of the wish list we teach visionaries to dump. You know, do kind of a brain dump for their wish list of all the sort of painful, frustrating things that the integrator would make go away. And that would, that would feed right into your process there. One of the things I see a lot lately is it's sort of the other side of the equation. So, you know, we got lots of visionaries that are looking for their integrator, trying to find them. And, you know, my belief, and it sort of echoes something you said earlier, Amy. My belief is there are a lot of people out there, maybe in corporate America that are, you know, they're sitting in a cubicle somewhere and they have, they don't quite fit there and they've got something entrepreneurial about them and they would be so helpful to some visionary out there if they could just find each other. Right. And so what we're starting to see more and more as awareness is kind of building is now we're getting the integrators that sort of, they self identify, they realize, oh, wow, this is what I am. You know, and it's like, wow, there's a name for it, there's other people like me, all that kind of discovery. I'm not alone in the world. But then their question is, well, how do I find the visionary? And so I wonder if you have any thoughts on that. So somebody who kind of figures out this is what they are, this is what they have a passion for doing, how should they go about looking for this, this good match or this opportunity on the, on the other side of the, of the partnership?

Gosh, that's a good question. I mean, I think there's just some groups out there that are where visionaries are thriving. I mentioned strategic coach, you know, and there's some organizations where they, they're think tanks, they're coming together, they're sharing ideas, and you've got to do some research, find those and, and connect with those, but also just put it out there, say, I am someone who would do well in this space. Space, and who do you know, right because there are a lot of owners out there and they're all connected. I don't know, David, if you would add anything else to that, but I was coaching someone very recently around this and she was running a business that she took over for her parents and she realized that she was not meant to be the visionary. And she said, I need to keep doing operations for somebody. And so what she was going to do is just go start a different type of business. And. And I said, no, you gotta keep doing exactly what you're doing. But she felt like she was failing right in the visionary seat. She was failing. And so we got her connected just through a local business owners association. So there's so many. There's the YPOs and WPOs and some of those kind of groups too. They are absolutely looking for people. I don't know if you have any other ideas, David. There's recruiters that do this, specialize in.

Yeah, I don't know that I have great additional stuff to add in terms of where to look. I think you've hit a bunch of them. Yeah. And doing the research, they could literally just Google visionary and companies looking for visionaries and see what pops up. Yeah, There are other groups, chambers of commerce, NFIB, YPO, et cetera, et cetera, obviously EOs. But the other thing I was going to say in terms of figuring out is this the right place for me? So, Mark, you talked about somebody maybe coming from the corporate world who hasn't lived in that entrepreneur, entrepreneurial environment. I think we visionaries often overlook the fact that not all visionaries are great people to be an integrator for. I mean, there are some visionaries who are going to be difficult. And for somebody coming from the corporate world, what I'd say to that potential integrator is find a visionary who isn't using this as an excuse to drop out. If you are coming into a company, find a visionary who has the patience and understanding that look for some length of time, that visionary is also going to be a mentor for that integrator. They're going to show them how to work. Because look, most of those visionaries moving up to the true visionary role, they've been doing the integrator role, at least a chunk of it. Find a visionary who's going to teach you, mentor you without micromanaging, without being able to step away. You want that difficult combination sometimes of they aren't just checking out and saying, well, I'll pop in once a quarter and tell you all my great ideas and you're just going to have to make them happen. They're more involved in that, and that's going to be a transition period. So probably also find a visionary who, again, this is especially for somebody who's kind of new in that integrator role coming out of corporate world. Find somebody who communicates pretty well and tell them your expectations up front. Hey, this is where I am. I think this will go better if you are willing to have plenty of meetings with me. Keep them at a high level. I don't want to suck you in, but let's talk some of these things through.

Right? Yeah, I like that. I think that's good counsel. All right, now I want to circle back to your specific relationship for a second. So visionary integrator family been doing this in various forms for quite a while. Let's just call it current form for the last five years. So I'm looking for in the last five years, what was like, the stickiest kind of situation you found yourself in in terms of where one of you is kind of like, you know, this is awkward, frustrating, maddening. You know, pick your. Pick your descriptor there. And what was it? And then how did you work through it?

Gosh, this is a good question, David. When you were first describing it, I thought the biggest challenge we've had to live through in the last five years has certainly been the pandemic. We had such hard decisions to make about the business and about bringing people in the office or not and all of those things. But I think we really, again, shared values helped us with that because we really agreed with all those decisions. Trying to think, David, what is something where we've really disagreed?

I don't know that we've had any big battles just between the two of us. I think for me, Mark, it's been more my role as visionary versus her role as integrator. And knowing, like. So, yeah, I'll get frustrated sometimes when I want to jump in and still do some of the integrator stuff, particularly in the areas where I had been more actively involved. But that's really more about me, frankly, than it's about Amy, because it's not that she's doing it wrong. It's. I'll just get frustrated, like, why isn't she doing it my way? But it hasn't. Like, we don't fight about stuff like that. I don't know how much I hide that from you versus how much you see it and you're annoyed.

He does a pretty good job of hiding that. Most of the Time. Every once in a while, he'll do the why isn't this moving faster? Why are you guys. How. Why are so many people involved with this? And by the way, we learned a lot from Kathy Colby. I think the number one thing you have to do is figure out what are the levels of decision making that someone needs to get involved in or not. So I. Because we worked together so long, I know when to go back to David and say, I don't know about this. I really do check in with him quite a bit. My favorite story about Kathy is when she had left, she had left the building, which I think, by the way, all of you people listening who are founders, Kathy's biggest advice to all of you is at some point, you actually have to leave the building. Because she came to a meeting. I had ordered pizza for the meeting, and she started criticizing how I ordered the pizza. She was saying, you didn't order enough meat. Why did you order this many? And so it was this turning point in our relationship where I pulled her into the office and I said, are we really going to have a conversation about how I ordered the pizza? Because if you cannot trust me to order pizza, then I cannot run your business. And so from that point on, it became like this joke where we would say, is this a pizza level decision, or is it higher than that? And so I think with David and I, we've just gotten really good at saying, when do I need to make sure he's involved? Otherwise, that'd be frustrating, because, David, I think you would feel like you have no idea what's going on. Yeah. Pizza level decision.

Pizza level decision. That's a great takeaway for our conversation today. I feel like the two of you are in a unique position because your business is human behavior. It's understanding people and why they do what they do and what they're going to do. And so I feel like that's almost a superpower that each of you probably has is to be able to kind of do that in real time. And I imagine you being able to go to a cocktail party or something and kind of sit back and watch people and sort of decode who they are and what their Colby score is and interact with them appropriately so they think you're the coolest people in the world.

Sure. Hard to turn it off, right? For sure.

Hard to turn it off.

I love that. All right, well, I am so grateful for you taking the time to visit with me a little bit today. I know that our listeners are going to get a ton of value a ton of help from you sharing your experience with them. If they want to find out more about Colby or either one of you, what's the best way for them to get in touch?

Well, go to kolbe.com and it's k-o l b e.com and feel free to email either of us. I'm dkolbyolby.com and Amy is Abruski B R U S K E colby.com I love it.

And to our listeners, thanks for listening and if you feel like this is good stuff, really appreciate it. If you would leave review on whatever platform it is that you're listening on. And with that, until next time, go rock it.

Thank you for listening today. I really hope this episode inspired you to bring Rocket Fuel to your business. If you're interested in learning more about the free community for visionaries, integrators and the people who support them, please visit Rocket Fuel University. Make huge leaps on your journey towards EOS mastery by joining us at the 2025 EOS Conference in Washington, DC. Happening April 2nd through 4th, the week will feature engaging breakout sessions, ample network opportunities, and can't miss keynotes from Gino Wickman and the best selling author of Atomic Habits, James Clear. Our biggest event of the year, this is the place to connect with other business leaders, learn from entrepreneurial experts, and strengthen your implementation of EOS tools. Go to eosconference.com to register now.