Know Your Lanes - Mark C. Winters

So we're rolling. Cool. We are live. This is. You're doing it wrong with Mark Henderson. Leary and I have a passion that you should feel in control of your life. And so what I do, as you know by now, is I help you get control of your business. And part of how I do that is by letting you listen in on these conversations between two people who are just passionate about the subject of entrepreneurship or something in that area, and they are geeking out on a subject you already know a little bit about. But this time, we're getting into the weeds and the details and unlocking some specific that'll hopefully allow you to get through your challenges and break through that ceiling, run the business you want to run and live the life you want to live. And so today, I'm super privileged to be with a guy I think about all the time, because in my world, we're talking about really important leadership challenges. And there's a really important leadership challenge that unites almost every company I've ever worked with, that helped them unlock their success in business and run the business they want to run and live the life they want to live. And that's this concept of the visionary and integrator. And now, I know Gino really should take credit for inventing this concept or bringing it out to life. But I have to be honest. Every time I think of visionary and integrator and what that means, I think of this guy, Mark C. Winters, who wrote the book, co authored the book with Gino on that called Rocket Fuel. And most people that I work with have read or heard of that book, and I've certainly pushed it. And so I'm really excited to have a conversation about the state of what we know about the best visionary and integrator relationships on the planet right now. So welcome. Mark. How are you, man?

I'm doing great, Mark. Thanks for having me on, man.

All right. So one of the things I'm happy to talk about anything, but I like to say I unfortunately have to inform people that 80% of the time a business I work with is stuck, and they can't get stuck. The root cause is they have failed to address the visionary and integrator problem. So does that resonate with you at all? Is that crazy?

So I would. I guess I would react this way. I think that integrators solve many of the problems that a lot of visionary entrepreneurs have and tend to get stuck on. So, of course, there's a lot of visionary entrepreneurs out there that have never heard of an integrator. They don't understand the structure. And so that's a whole really important step in the process, is for them to be exposed to it. Which is why I'm really glad you're having me on and we're talking about it and then to kind of scratch their head and think about, gee, I wonder if that would make a difference for me. And more often than not, when they get exposed to it, they think, yeah, I think this actually could be something that would change my world.

So you're at the cocktail party and somebody says, all right, what is the visionary and integrator? How do you summarize that up for somebody great?

So the visionary is somebody that most people know or think they know. And it's this founding entrepreneur, typically. But they're the one that they've got all the ideas, they're seeing the future, they're thinking about what's next. They are crazy enough to have that entrepreneurial seizure that makes them go and start a company, but they're not great at execution and following through on the details and all that stuff. That's not really their superpower. Their superpower is more externally focused and kind of coming up with what could be, what should be. And then the integrator is sort of their. Their awesome counterpart that complements all of their superpowers. And the integrators superpowers are that follow through, that execution, that detail orientation, the ability to manage people and get them organized and focused and working together. And when you put them together, it's a super powerful combination. That's the name Rocket Fuel, that we titled the book. They're very different. If you were to leave them to their own devices, they would butt heads and there'd be a lot of friction and they may not get along very well. And so that's really what we tried to do, was come up with a structure to put around that relationship, to harness that friction, blend it into something positive and powerful, point it in the right direction, and get that behind driving the company wherever it is they want it to go.

I love that because there's lots to talk about in this, obviously. But when the visionaries I talk to, they experience or they see for the first time that there is another kind of leader that there is, that is, they don't have to be that kind of leader. There's a great deal of relief. So many leaders, great entrepreneurs, beat themselves up and they feel like they're failing or incapable or just not or just flawed in some permanent way. And to illustrate that, look, there is a yin And Yang, there is a creator leader and a destroyer leader and a yes person and a no person, and they're okay as different. And it's so relieving. Oh, I'm not broken. And that's so powerful.

Yeah, it's okay to be me. Right. And, you know, people beat themselves up about there. And it's interesting because I get to see both sides of it and you do as well. Right. And so the visionary sort of feels like, whew, really, I don't have to do all this stuff that I hate doing. There's somebody else that actually loves doing that stuff. That's a cool experience, you know, for them to discover. And then likewise, on the integrator side, which is hard for me to get my head around because I'm, you know, pretty far on the visionary scale. But, you know, there are people that. They just love to be fed the idea and then go make it happen. And so, yeah, it's interesting to watch them both sort of go through their discovery, their awakening, if you will, into their role in that combination.

Yeah. One of the things, the way I describe it is building that first accountability chart of, like, what are the major functions in an organization? And, you know, there's a sales function, not marketing function, operations and finance function in the business for people who are may or may not be familiar with that. And then I point to this function called the integrator, and I say, like, look, this term integrator is an EOS term, but it describes a function you already know. And that's the boss who helps the trains run on time and removes obstacles. And that's who you think the typical boss should be. But somehow that boss is a little mythical.

Right.

Who knows somebody who's actually in that spot? Let's continue on. And I describe the visionary. It's well, we got a visionary. Do we have an integrator? And people are like, hmm, I see what you were saying. But I also see that I actually haven't experienced it very often, and there might be a need in that spot right there.

Right. Right now. That's why it's so important when you're doing that accountability chart to show those two functions, the integrator function and the visionary function, as separate functions. Because, as you know, many of the times when we show up as an EOS implementer, you know, it's the same person sitting in both seats.

Yeah.

And they didn't realize there were two seats. And so you pointed out, you described the differences, and they may have the epiphany that's going, wow, I haven't been doing a very good job at that.

Or.

And, or the team goes, well, that explains everything. You know, we got to get one of those. Because you're not one of those, or you're not doing. You're not spending much time and energy being one of those. And so they see the gap as well.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And so one of the things that I have encountered lately, and maybe you experienced this a long time ago, maybe the pattern just jumped out on me in that a lot of organizations grow their business and grow to size based on their talent. They're individual contributors, they're consultants, they're crafts people or whatever. And they've gotten to pretty good size where everybody just kind of knew what to do. And somehow they got to be 15 people, 20 people or maybe even larger. And nowhere in there did anyone teach them how to manage. They knew how to contribute and do maybe lead a little bit. But in terms of management and this idea of measuring minor progress and doing that work of observation, I think that's the main thing a really good manager can do is manage the. Or can really observe the accountabilities of the team are the inputs matching the outputs. Are we getting the results we need? And they're not distracted by the doing. The visionaries tend to be, I find, either if they're in. If they're not in the visionary spot, they tend to be really great individual contributors and creators. And they like their hands dirty and the edges of the organization, those managers who are not possessed by getting their hands dirty, they can sit on their hands and they can use their eyes and their ears and they can see what's going on and. And they can start to make observations and recommendations about what needs to change and all that to say that it's. It sounds unsexy. Because leadership man who doesn't want to be a leader like I want to be a leader like Steve Jobs and a general in the army, and I want to be the leader like the president. No one wants to grow up to be a manager. That is the critical ingredient in these organizations. You need the manager of managers and maybe the manager of leaders and someone to set the bar of excellence of observation and tracking of the results and not getting distracted by getting out in the weeds.

Yeah, there's a couple of things that I see there, you know, one is, I think you're right. I think everybody thinks they want to be, you know, and whether it's the leader or the manager, they have this vision of that they want to be, and they don't realize what goes with that. And what goes with that are a lot of hard conversations and a lot of hard decisions. And, you know, many times I've seen somebody, you know, sort of fight for their spot on the leadership team, and then they get on the leadership team, and after a while they struggle. And, you know, a lot of times they come to their own realization. You know what? I don't want to do this. I want to go back to what I was doing, being an architect or a software developer or whatever, and just kind of do my thing. And I don't want to have this hassle of what goes with being a manager and a leader. And then for the visionaries, Mark, what I see is many visionaries are actually, I should say, can be great managers, but it's really hard for them. And so, you know, many of them have had to do it. And so it's sort of a necessary evil for them to be able to survive and, like you said, grow and get to the point that they got to. But, man, it's hard, and it sucks so much energy out of them to do that. They don't get joy from it. Again, it was just kind of a necessary evil. And for me, in my history, I've been in places where I managed a lot of people, and I actually thought I was a pretty good manager. But when I look back on that now, knowing what I know and just understanding myself better, I'm not. I'm a good manager for about one, which is perfect for me because that's the spot that I live in, and that's where, you know, my gifts lie. And so let that one then be the multiplier that expands it out to whatever we need.

Yeah, that's so funny, because you talk about superpower. That seems to be your term. And my term in that spot is the 10x. And so I use the Delegate and elevate tool. And I want the quadrants, which, if you're not familiar with the tool, it's the four buckets of the things you do in the week. And the bottom right hand quadrant is the things that you don't like to do and you're bad at. These are things that we've all known we should delegate. Then there's the quadrant, which is the deceptive quadrant, which is the things that we're good at but we don't like. And those are the things that eat our soul because people keep bringing them back to us, and we keep doing good work. And damn it, that's not. And that might be management for some people. And then of course, there's the 1x, which is the stuff we're good at and the stuff we like, the stuff that we have some degree of endurance to do and feel good at the end of the day, we've done it. But there's the stuff we're good at, great at and love. And that's the stuff that I call the 10x. That's the stuff that's 10 times more valuable, 10 times more fun, 10 times faster, 10 times more interesting. Something about that. That's the superpower you're after. And if you're, if you're sitting there in that doing that, I'm a good manager, but I don't really like it. You are 10 times robbing your organization of your superpower. You have absolutely got to let that go and let somebody whose job it is. And so with that management ego, I need to be a manager. I need to be the head of the software development team. Oh, really? Tell me about how you're growing your team. How much satisfaction do you like in coaching human beings as opposed to writing code? Well, actually, I like the computers a lot better than the people your 10x is not managing. Let somebody else do it who really does want to do it. And you are going to have a hundred x because their ten x is going to multiply against your ten x. And that is the world we're trying to create.

Yep, I'm with you. That's the dream, right? That's not. Well, it's not just the dream. It's the, it's the pursuit. It's the reality that we're after where everybody can be in, you know, what Dan Sullivan calls it, unique ability.

Right.

That space where, you know, our competence and our, and our passion, our joy are at their max. And we are actually maybe some of the best in the world at it. And we get tremendous joy from it. And that creates a ton of energy. And like you said, that happening in all these different seats all across the organization just compounds and multiplies and makes for a very powerful, very powerful organization.

So I want to make this actionable for people. So when I work with companies and I look around the room, we got that first day together. We've all identified there's a need for a visionary and integrator. And we look, is there somebody who can fill that spot? And I'm just sitting there so hopeful. Is there somebody in the room? Because if there's not, it really is a game changer. And when we find that person, I'm like, wow, okay, we get this is going to be fast track to making real progress for them. I know they're going to have the joy, but that's not everybody's case. A lot of the smaller companies, they're not in that spot. And so the companies get stuck there a lot. So talk about that. You get to, you work with a company and there's nobody in the room who really can do it. Where do people get stuck and how do you help people not get stuck in trying to find and put that person in place?

Yes. So the first big step, Mark, is obviously that realization, that moment where they realize they have a gap. Right. And so the visionary realizes, you know what? That's not me. Or I don't want that to be me. I want that to be somebody else. And the organization sees it typically as well, but they're not there yet. Okay. So that puts them in a position where you can't just run with an empty seat. Right. So somebody needs to fill the role, somebody needs to perform the function. And so a lot of times that means the visionary needs to hang in there. But what we've done is we've created visibility to what's going on, which is going to typically create more, let's just say, energy to solve that problem faster. Because it's going to be like, wow, the visionary is going to get frustrated because they're not doing great and the organization is going to be able to see it even more clearly. And so that's going to typically help accelerate them in that direction. But what do they do? So there's a number of different paths. There may be somebody in the organization that's just not quite ready. And so we sort of bring them on some sort of a development path. We identify them as the person, we, you know, train them, bring them along. The visionary works closely with them to develop them so that they can grow into that seat in a reasonable amount of time. There are fractional solutions where you say, you know what? I'm not ready to bring on somebody full time to fill that seat. But if we had somebody here a couple days a week, maybe even one day a week performing that function like it's really supposed to. Supposed to be performed, we're going to get some benefits. So I would say, you know, a company with a fractional integrator that's really good is stronger than a company with no integrator, if that makes sense. Or a company with somebody where somebody's just kind of trying to do it, but they're not really made for it. And then from there you get into the search for the, you know, somebody to fill that seat full time. And again, lots of different paths. And we talk about it in the book and there's, you know, resources on, on the website to help with this. But it's sometimes as simple as putting the signal out to your network and using the terminology that I'm looking for an integrator, maybe you put out a rough job description. We have one of those that we provide to kind of give you a start. And just putting that signal out that, hey, here's what I'm looking for. And then that ripple effect, I mean, we have many, many, many stories where that's how the integrator arrived, that's how they found their path back. There's also, you know, obviously you can use the posting sites and whatever, do a normal hiring posting kind of a thing. And then there's actually a lot of recruiting firms that have started to pivot their search firm to focus on finding integrators and really kind of specialize in that. So there's kind of as much help as you want to get. There's people out there to kind of help you, help you do that. Another resource that people should know about is just sort of within our circle again, the Rocket Fuel University community. You know, if you're in that community and you're active, we have lots of cases where people have organically found their match in the discussion forum. So, you know, somebody is a visionary and they post on there, hey, I'm a visionary. You know, I'm in Houston. I have this size, this type of company. I'm looking for an integrator. And there's all these integrators here in the community, and they respond, and so they get a good flow of potential candidates like that. Likewise, integrators hold their hand up and go, hey, I'm an integrator seeking a visionary. And there's also visionaries in the community, and so they find them that way. So we have lots of organic matching that happens in our community that way as well.

You know, it's one thing, I think it's worth mentioning 13 years of repeating this, and a lot of people hesitate to refer to the term integrator because they, they feel like it's a jargon or something like that. And it's really a helpful term. Now. You put it out there and people know exactly what you mean, and it's a great way to cut through people who are like, what do you mean? Coo, President, general manager, head of whatever. It's like, no integrator. And now you can have a meaningful conversation. And you filtered out a lot of people. And a lot of people, like you said, they know the EOS process. They've used it in their past lives. They've worked in companies who understand it, and now you've got people who can kind of speak your language.

Yeah. So, I mean, early on we noticed people going on LinkedIn and changing their headline to Integrator. We're kind of like, wow, that's interesting. They're really adopting this. And then people were doing searches and we found them directing all candidates to come through our visionary integrator assessment and take that as part of the hiring process. Okay, this is pretty interesting. This is pretty cool. And then, as you probably know, we have a program now within Rocketfield University for. For integrators that want to really raise the level of their game. And there's a pathway for them to actually become a professional integrator, a certified integrator. That's, again, a way for them to have a designation that they can hold out there to let people know that they're not just putting it on their profile, but they've actually done additional training, they're doing additional work, they're involved in a community to help them master their craft, to be the best integrator they can be.

So how often do you encounter any more? Because I think it's changed over time. The visionary saying, yeah, this is great. Yeah, this is going to change the world. And, yeah, you know, in a minute I'm going to get that. Hold on. You know, I'm going to try another quarter and I'm going to sit in both seats, I'm going to do it for a while, and then they kind of get stuck in the mud. How often does that happen for you?

Well, I mean, it happens, right? And typically it falls back on what we talk about as readiness. And maybe they're just not ready. And sometimes that's because of where they're at in their stage of life. Maybe they're early on and they're still just kind of. They want to do everything and they feel like they need to do that. And they haven't sort of matured past that. Sometimes they're not ready to let go of certain things of kind of the role, the things that that would be handed off to the integrator. Sometimes they're not financially ready because they don't clearly see the economic benefit. And actually a Great way to help illustrate that is if you take all the issues on the list of a company that doesn't have an integrator, and you go through and you kind of look at them, you go, okay, which of these would be impacted significantly if we had a great integrator onboarding, it's like, okay, that one, that one, that one, that one. Okay, so what kind of a financial impact would that have for the company if that was truly solved and that was doing what we wanted to do? And you go back and you, you know, you put some, put some numbers.

To that 2%, 1%, a dollar here, less rework, less turnover. You know, if I kept those people, those great techs, if we didn't have to lose those, like, wow, how much did that cost? Recruiting fees, right?

And so you see how quickly that adds up to a figure that typically dwarf what the compensation looks like for an integrator. So once they kind of get their head around that. But sometimes it's a process, right? And sometimes they have to kind of think about it. I would say more often, though, a visionary, somebody hands them rocket fuel, they read the first chapter and it's all about them and they love it. It's a great chapter, right? And then they read the second chapter and it's about the integrator. And pretty quickly they go, hmm, you know what? I think this could help me. And then they're moving into that mode that you talked about where they're ready to figure out a way to fill the role, and they start looking inside, start looking outside. And, you know, we're working hard on ways to make that easier, you know, to fill that even faster and even, even better, you know, but, you know, right now you got to kind of follow one of those three paths that I laid out.

You know, I just had an epiphany. I've been searching for the answer for this. When I have had clients and friends who have been stuck and stuck and stuck for 6, 8/4 and Sisyphean life rolling the rock up the hill and it rolls back down. And we know the 90 day cycle, like you can get a visionary fired up to make an impact for 90 days. And the 91st day, it's starting to deteriorate. People are like, quit, quit. So I want to help people get out of that cycle. And I would challenge people listening to this, that if you're a visionary and you're feeling hesitant, you know, understand, do you value yourself? Do you value yourself enough to bring in someone of equal value in a different Capacity because I think I've seen the pattern where we talk about what does a great integrator look like and what are they going to get compensated and what's the value going to come from that. And I think there's a real challenge where people, if they don't have enough value of themselves, they don't see how they could, they could pair up with somebody who they see as a higher value than them, maybe even unconsciously because I know some of the visionaries I work with, they value the execution which is valuable, but they devalue themselves because they self rate their own ability to execute so low. They actually see the integrator as more valuable because they can do the stuff they can't, which we know that's not the case. It's yin and yang, it's equal or more value because you brought the ideas. But there is this comparison effect. And so if the visionary is not in a state of mind to understand, honor themselves as valuable in their own shape and size and contribution, they're not going to be able to let somebody else in who could be equally valuable. And I think it's a self sabotage for a lot of those leaders.

Yeah, I mean a couple of points. Execution I think is the scarce commodity. And I know lots of visionaries, myself included, that have drawers full of ideas that are unexecuted, really good ideas. And then I've had many ideas where 10 years later I saw some, somebody else did. I'm like, man, could have been me. But it wasn't. And so I know there's thousands of stories out there like that. So execution is super valuable. Another pattern that I see. Well, I forgot where I was going with that. What was I going to say? Well, I don't know, we'll come back to it.

You actually hit a nerve for me. So I think what visionary start doing is they say for me to be valuable enough to have somebody who can execute do that work, I need to increase my value by executing. Well, guess what?

Right?

You've done this 20 years, right?

And it takes away from where their true value is. Here's what I was going to say. I've had numerous conversations with private equity firms talking about the role of the integrator. And that is one of the strongest moves that a company can make to increase their value. They value, they value having a strong integrator in place very highly because it de risks the business in a significant way.

So let's talk about terminology and this hasn't come up a lot in the eos. Pure world. Because we always talk about integrator and we're very title averse and we get into very, very functional, practical language and that's our natural habitat. But we start getting involved with private equity and independent third party investing. There's a whole lexicon that shows up and it can and you know, like it means anything. Right? A CEO. A CEO, a CEO, you know, a CRO, all cso. What are those people with the money behind them? What do they think that means? It's anybody's guess. And so we like to really break it down to functional, practical outputs. But what I have encountered is that outside investment, they have a way and they have a language and things like COO tends to be their equation. When I say integrated, they start saying, do we need a coo? And some of the firms I've had to indirectly work with are resistant. They like, they want to see a company at a certain size. They think there's some sort of ego or we're going to go get a COO from Microsoft or something. What do you see in terms of perceptions or misperceptions of when investment wants to see an integrator in the COO titles and misperceptions about that?

Yeah, so titles are super problematic as you, I mean, as you describe. And so, you know, let's just kind of lay out what the parallels are. So, so the typical parallel for an integrator is a coo, a president, a general manager. Right? It's something like that. But it's so, you know, fluid on the other side that, who knows. But what it tees up is when you, if you're having that conversation, it clarif it causes you to have the question to clarify. Well, what do you mean by that? And you can kind of get into what you're talking about with the, with the specific role in the examples I was referring to. It's on the, really on the buy side. So it's not the firm that's already invested in and they're looking at what they're going to do with it. It's before the PE firm gets into them and they show up on the scene and there's already an integrator in place. The price tag is higher because that.

Makes a lot of sense.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does for sure. And so I, that's a great way to flip it around and say like, you know, I know you feel like we're premature because you have some expectation of recruiting the highly valuable technical CEO from somewhere, but the faster we can get There the more valuable this is. And so make sure that.

So that's it. Sometimes it's great for the, for the founding, the founding visionary entrepreneur to be the one that makes that move themselves. That way they reap the full value of it.

It's interesting because one, one of the things I like to try to push for is like we're going to 10x your enterprise value by getting your people, your leadership, not the least of which into their 10x contribution. And it's a cultural transformation and doing that work. We're going to 10x the power of your leadership team by getting that 10x integrator in place which is going to 10x your ability to have a kick ass culture which is going to 10x your enjoyment and 10x the enterprise value when you sell this thing.

Yep, that's the game, right? Is get people in their, in their highest and best use where they love it and can do great and let them all multiply each other for sure.

So what's changed in the thinking of integrators over the last. Well, let's take a. Taking a step back. So when I do the rocket fuel talk which is all the content that you've created, I love sharing that stuff and I show a of lot little video clip of Walt and Roy and I love to quiz the room. It's a little black and white video clip. I don't know if I got it from you. If I just, I think I snatched it from somewhere and I just let him talk and I. And it's. And you don't say who it is. And I said who is that? And then some people kind of get it. But obviously there's history here. There's a historical precedent for the creator of ideas and often chaos and the destroyer of distractions and the destroyer of choices that would diffuse our energy and help us stay focused. And those are the integrators really they're the no to the. Yes, it's historical but we've spent 13 years of EOS in the industry that's allowed access to this thinking to companies between, you know, this started 10 people even smaller in certain cases, but certainly between 10 and the target of EOS is 10 to 250. But I'm seeing companies well above that using it. How is that segment evolving? Evolving this thinking of the visionary and the integrator?

Well, I think we're seeing quite a track record of effectiveness. So because we're making more and more of these entrepreneurial companies aware of the structure, more and more are adopting it and having the success that goes with it. So that's one, I think we've spread it in a good way. So that's been really good. Another interesting thing is I see folks that when they leave, so let's say they implement eos, they have a great visionary integrator duo in place, they experience the success that they have with that and then they have some sort of an exit, so they sell or whatever and then they're off to their next thing. Several times, Mark, I've seen that visionary, their first, next hire is an integrator. So on the new thing, on the new startup, in effect they don't even get into it until they have their integrator and then that's who they go into it with. And that's another pattern that I'm seeing is more smaller companies that are sort of below the 10 employee target market, they're benefiting from it as well. And sometimes it's a different type of integrator. We talk about the visionary spectrum and the integrator spectrum and there's this idea I've drawn up of a three piece puzzle that we're trying to fill out where the visionary and the integrator, they got a fit. So we need the shape of their edges to be complementary so that they match and have a great fit. And then there's the firm that they're plugged into and the visionary that that business needs, the visionary needs to be a good fit with that. So they click right in. Same thing for the integrator. You know, a firm that is a, is a multinational multi, you know, product line, you know, thousands and thousands of employee size company, there's lots of complexity that's going to take a certain type of integrator. But a company that's, you know, has a much more narrow geographic footprint and a single product line and doesn't have as many people just haven't, doesn't have as much complexity. They don't need the same kind of an integrator as that first firm did. Right. So we need to understand where the firm falls on the spectrum for both the visionary and the integrator. And so there are smaller firms that are finding the integrator that fits on their spectrum and they're locking them in. And we've got a strong duo in place there as well.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm glad you said that. Well, I see exactly that. If you're looking to history, we're looking to billion dollar companies and companies who we know the Name of. Because they were so successful and the pattern is clear, but these are archetypically similar. They're large companies.

So let me stop you for a second because the point on the large companies is that they weren't always large. They started.

Fair enough, fair enough.

They started as a small entrepreneurial company. And that's where that combination, that's where that relationship was so pivotal. Right. They grew on to be huge. They grew on to be, you know, hugely successful. But they started as, as one of these, you know, 10 to 250 person companies.

Agreed 100%. And I think what colors the lens is, we only learn the snapshot of them at their, that their pinnacle. And we see them at their maximum strength as leaders. And we're like, well, I can't afford a Roy Disney. Look at that guy. Well, you know, like you, like you're saying, like, I don't know what Roy's first day on the job was like. He was probably just a guy with a bad attitude like, Walt, we can't do that.

You're crazy.

And so how he evolved over time. So as we see this access to every business, like you said, it's like, well, day one, I need an integrator because I know I'm not going to be great at execution and how do I multiply my ability to be effective on day one and understanding, I think two really important things because we know the integrator fights. Too bad. The integrator's got a battle up and a battle down. If you're looking at the accountability chart, has to make the visionary feel comfortable that things are moving forward and help them polarize their creativity to the most effective focus and then also remove obstacles from a leadership team that needs somebody to help them be successful. They need to be the leader that, that leadership team deserves to be their best. And so you have to manage both of those energies, which is how big is the team? Maybe there is no team. It's a very, very small startup. And so there's, there's minimal, maybe a couple of vendors you're managing and you're doing assistant type work, but you still got the energy of the visionary. And so if that's a powerful, energetic force that is hard to resist, that that integrator energy has to be capable of withstanding that radiation and being able to say, no, slow it down, we got a plan here. And so it does create a lot of opportunity for dramatically different looking integrators given the circumstance.

Yeah, we say that the energy has to match. Right. So the Integrators got to be strong enough that they can lean on that visionary. And it kind of goes back and forth without the visionary just mowing them over and blowing down, right? And so, you know, they find that sweet spot where they can really go back and forth. And ultimately, you know, really what we want, Mark, is we want. Want them to become two halves of the same brain. They begin to learn from each other and they coach each other, right? And they become two halves of the same brain. And so then the integrator comes back into the organization as this translator, right? And so they can speak the language of the organization more effectively and then actionize this vision and execute it and make it happen.

So I love that. The two halves of the same brain. I always, I draw a box sometimes. I want you to think, this looks like two people, but I want you to think of it as one leadership function. And it says, eyes forward, eyes back, you know, yes. No, it has to be on the same page. And that's. I lead into the same page meeting. You got to be on the same page. And I back up to the integrator, breaks the tie, which we know is the number one, like, freak out point for the visionary. It breaks the tie. Tie like, I'm the boss. Like, okay, that's it. Don't think of it as like the first step. Think of it as your litmus test. You need to work so hard to be on the same page, to have to share the same values. Shame. Be on the same page with their vto, your core focus, those core values, and be so locked in that you have that trust that either of you could decide and be comfortable with the outcome because you are locked in together.

Yeah, that's right. It's, you know, trust is the, the foundation for sure. And trust doesn't happen like that. And so again, that relationship, that same page cadence of really communicating and being disciplined about that so that they get closer and closer and understanding each other more and more. And then the integrator breaks ties. And again, they're typically not breaking a tie on a huge mission critical decision that they've never talked about with the visionary. You know, people get, they get tripped up about that, right? Normally it's, in fact, it's very rare in my clients that I see an integrator have to step in and break a tie. It happens every once in a while, but it's not very often. And when it does happen, it's usually not a major thing because the major things there's more discussion on and they're talking it out more and they usually, at least the visionary and the integrator do get aligned on it. So you're right on it. Right. That's something that kind of evolved and they get to that. And then there's coaching. Because if the integrator breaks a tie to make that decision, there's accountability that goes with that. They have to do it well. And if they're wrong and they miss it, or the visionary feels they're wrong, then there's more communication that happens. They talk about that on their same page. There's coaching. Hey, did you think about this? Did you think about that? We see what happens, right? And if there starts to develop a pattern where the integrators just blowing it all the time and every time they break a tie, it takes us the wrong direction, then the visionary may have the wrong integrator. They may need to make a change.

Yes. I think the visionaries tend to see that breaking the tie as going against the visionary's wishes. Nine times out of ten. That's not how I see it. How I see it is we are clearly not going to consensus in the room, at least at a cost that makes sense relative to the decision. We could talk about this for 16 months, hours, but it's not that kind of decision. We're going to just make a call. Integrator. What's the call? And that's. That's usually how it matters.

That's it. Let's just. We can't be stuck. That's the worst place to be. So let's keep it moving. And that's. You're exactly right.

So in terms of the risk, there's a couple things that come together, and I want these to kind of parallel stepping into the risk of I don't have an integrator and I want to put one in place. How do you advise people for stepping into it, in terms of how fast, how long, and associated in parallel with that, the risks of failure. Like, if I mess this up, what's going to happen?

So I would approach it like the most important hire that you're going to make. Right. Which is different for every firm. But it's not like hiring another accounting clerk. It's not like hiring something that you, you know, you just turn and you hire 100 of those a year. This is a pretty specialized hire. So I would approach it with, you know, the appropriate amount of rigor, like the most important hire you would make. So, you know how fast you move into that, that's going to vary. It's going to depend. You need to see your options. I see people that fall into, you know, visionaries are great at this. Actually, everybody's great at this. They feel pain and they want it to go away. And so here's a warm body in front of me that maybe looks kind of close to what would make my pain go away. And so they, they jump too fast. Right. And they don't, you know, run through the, the disciplines of making sure that they fit our core values, making sure that they really are going to be able to GWC the seat and perform at the level that we need. And now they've got a bigger mess on their hands. Right. They, they alleviated the pain temporarily, but then they end up with even more pain. So don't do that. But at the same time, recognize for a visionary, the integrator is not going to be your obvious hire. What I mean by that is many visionaries are great at hiring people that are just like them. And what you don't need is more you. You know, you've got you visionaries, so you don't need more you. You need somebody that complements you. And frankly, that's going to feel a little uncomfortable. Maybe they maybe feel a little bit abrasive to you. It may not feel easy. And so that's where some profiling companies many times can help you see that and see why that is and understand that that's actually part of what you need. So again, open eyes, get help, treat it like the most important hire you're going to make, and then move as quickly as is appropriate for where you're at. Then once you're done, you got to have patience. Right. So it doesn't just go from 0 to 100 instantly. You've got to work the process, get them on board, support them, get them some quick wins. That's going to help you feel better, that's going to help them feel better. That's going to help the organization feel better and kind of bring them up the curve. It may take a year before you feel like, all right, this is really starting to click in and really, you know, move and go and do what we want it to do.

Yeah. So I think there's, there's a razor's edge on both sides of that is certainly putting the wrong, putting the convenient person in the spot that everybody in the room knows is not the right person. That's tragic. And so we can't do that. But the flip side is also true. It's not going to be perfect. And don't hold out for perfection and vision. Visionaries have a propensity to desire perfection, which is part of why they're so inspired, so understanding that this. This can be imperfect and go really well and really add a lot of value. And even in the end, I see this where we had somebody who was close and made some, got us from where we were to where we are and no longer is the right fit, really. So that can happen somewhat quick. That can happen any year for sure. And it's not bad. We leveled up on that. We learned a ton. And we always. The thing about accountability and getting right people and right seats is that it is not a light switch thing. It's a skill we develop every time we move somebody into a different spot in or out of the organization and update our accountability chart and learn more about it. We're actually getting better at doing it. So we have to have some willingness to try some things and be okay when it doesn't work out.

Right. Yeah. And depending on how, you know, how much pain there is and how big the gap is between the current visionary and how well they're able to perform as an integrator, you know, like I said earlier, a fractional integrator for one day, that's good, is better than no integrator. And to your point, it's getting you closer. It's letting you understand, okay, this is how this can work. This is what that feels like. This is what it may be able to do. So you kind of grow and expand from there, but mistakes happen and firms change, Firms change. And so sometimes they launch and take off. And on that integrator spectrum, we need something different now than we needed, you know, 18 months ago. So all of those things make it fun.

So two. Well, there's one. I'll start with one in particular. And maybe this is the last point I want to make, but we'll see. What do you see as the relationship between the integrator and the head of operations archetypically? Because I see a lot of like, oh, oh, it's kind of the same person and we're similar.

Yeah. So here's what I would say. I would say it's more typical for an integrator to come from an operations background or a finance background than it is for them to come from a sales background. I would say that's a general pattern that I see. But other than that, as far as the relationship between the integrator and the head of ops, it's no different. So it's. It's no different than it is between any of the other leaders?

Well, I guess a lot of times I see, you know, especially small teams and we've got a couple people who are in more than one seat, especially on day one. It's more common than not like you say, oftentimes if we're going to see double seats, where I typically see a visionary holding onto the sales leadership for a while, which is, we know, tragic and we try to stop that as soon as possible. Then the integrator often in the finance seat as well, integrator often in the ops. And so what I think that leads to is an equivocation in the mind of like well, it's kind of the same, right. And I'm like, well it's actually, I can see why I would say that. But there's some critical differences and you're going to want one person in each as soon as it makes sense. How do you help people understand the difference?

Well, it's, I mean it just is different. Right. So the things that are similar are the execution orientation. But you know, take the OPS function, multiply it by the sales of and marketing and the finance and admin. Right. And that's why it's different. There's a lot more to it and a lot of different stuff to it. The thing that I see on this one mark, and I've seen it actually several times in the integrator masterclasses that we do where the light bulb kind of goes on for the integrator, that this is a full time job and meanwhile they've been sitting in two or three seats maybe integrator plus ops plus finance. Right, whatever the combination is. And they begin to realize that you know what, this integrator stuff alone is a full time job and am I spending how much of my time and attention am I actually spending there when I'm spending? If there's 10 units of me and I'm spending four of them over here on finance and four of them here on ops, I've only got two units left to spend up here in this integrator function. And our organization deserves more than that. And so how do we get there? So it sort of makes that light bulb go off and then helps them prioritize whatever the people issues are that they have to solve in order to make that happen.

Yeah, I agree with all that. And further I've really pushed people to say like I know from a high level, since you really haven't experienced what the integrator is like yet, let me color this for you. And I build on kind of what you said and I say the operations person has a narrower lane. And so they've got a lot of detail of understanding about how we do the work we do and how we make the stuff we make. And they oftentimes have a lot of street cred. They've got very, they came up through the ranks, they know how the product is made, they're experts, but they're also actually leaders and managers and so they can execute so they're the right person for the job. This is often one of the hardest positions to fill because it becomes so specific to our industry. Integrator is kind of the opposite. It's like it's somebody who can handle the breadth of the company and they understand how sales interacts with operations and marketing and finance and all that. But often we don't care about what industry they come from because they're really just managing the breadth of the organization. They might not have any street cred at all, but they can make things happen because they know how to manage leaders and managers and get the results. And that has actually helped people really get clear. It's like it looks a little similar but it is very kind of political. Are different in that.

Yeah, that's right on. And you know, the integrators game is all about how do I get the strongest and best leaders around the table here in each of those other seats so that the integrator doesn't have to be an expert in every little thing.

Is the full time job concept. I thought I've had a few visionaries who keep dismissing. Well, it's not really a full time job around here. And I think when you start drawing out some of the skills, some of the roles we put into that seat, we say the lma, that's the number. Leadership, management, accountability. That's what I say. I said if there's only one role they got, that's it. And it's. And that's enough by itself. But what else do you have? And we start adding things like the P and L accountability to the results and then maybe removing obstacles and things like that. And people are like, well what, what are they doing? Like they're not making something. Do we put HR in their court? Like no, no, trust me, this is a job. This is the leader of leaders, the manager of managers. And they're going to be handling really big problems. Do you, do you find people struggle with that at all or you just like, just how does that work?

Yeah, actually I don't see people struggle with that as much, I think they see, you know, they see the load, they see the contribution. It's more. The challenge is how do we fill it? I think they tend to. The ones I'm exposed to, tend to get it pretty quick. And then it's like, okay, how are we going to take our first step again? Whether it's, you know, know, somebody internal, somebody fractional, you know, we begin the search in earnest to actually fill the seat.

How often do you actually work with a company who doesn't need an integrator like you personally? I know we got the. I know we got the data.

So what do you think the data is?

What do we say, it's like less than five. No, it's like some. Less than 5%, right? No, that's integrators. Right. So it's something. It's like 1.2% or something really small. Yeah, so it's.

So it's less than 5% of visionaries can actually perform at a high level as an integrator also. So that's the data piece of it. But your question, the way I heard it was, how many times have I run into a company that didn't need an integrator?

Yeah, right.

And the answer for me is never. So in my client base and again, the companies I've seen through Rocket Fuel University, I mean, I just haven't seen it. It's there again, there's an integrator spectrum. So what they need may be different, but I haven't seen one.

Yeah, because that's ultimately what I've come to the conclusion as well. And as a. Every visionary can run a business of some size greater than zero. Now, sometimes that size greater than zero is $10. And so I'm closer to that. But I've worked with some people who can run a pretty big size, big organization on talent and skill and training and that kind of thing. And I recently interviewed a CEO of a retail energy company and I just sort of. I was talking to this guy and he's the integrator. He's really great at it and he's got a vision piece of what he does, but he buys his way on the side of that. So it's really cool to see and interesting to see that you have to be able to execute to run the business. And you can't skip that ingredient. Everybody needs it one way or another. Walt Disney needed it, Steve Jobs needed it, Honda needed it. They all needed it.

Yeah, you're right. And you think about those spectrums. Visionary, integrated spectrums are kind of like sliders, right? So while there may be a company that needs a tremendous amount of integrator, they might need less visionary, right. So there's different combinations of those. And so there may be situations where the integrator is really is really the power player and we need the visionary sort of a lesser role.

Well, look, man, we covered a ton. What did we miss?

I don't think we missed anything, Mark. We had a nice walk through the park and talked about fun stuff with helping to make entrepreneurs more successful.

So I mean, it's a great time to be helping businesses right now. I mean, it really truly is an interesting couple of years. Certainly stressful for me and other. Some people had some of their best years in 2020 and I had a good year. I got to be honest. It was really stressful. 2021 has been wonderful. And it's the companies I work with, the problems they bring me are these crises of abundance, which is a whole other topic, but like crisis of scarcity, when you have to lay off people and the economy is doing something unfun. That's one type of challenge. We've been all been taught how to deal with crises of abundance. We've got so much stuff and no way to meet the need causes these really much more challenging problems to solve. And it involves saying no to things like, no, I can't do that on that time and I can't do it at that price. And we're not gonna be able to move forward on this because we can't deliver quality. And I'm burning up my staff and I like my job a lot less. And even though I'm making more money than I've ever made before, I would like to quit right now because this sucks. Those are very sound like good problems to have that they're, as it turns out, they're exceedingly painful. Exceedingly painful and nasty for people to try to solve. That being said, it's an abundant time. It's a wonderful time to be in the community talking about EOs, talking about visionaries and integrators. What's your passionate plea to entrepreneurs right now?

I believe that entrepreneurs are the answer to many of the problems that we face as a world right now. And so anything that I can do to help a visionary be able to make the impact that they are intended to make on this world happen, that's what I get excited about. So my passionate plea is to all you visionary entrepreneurs is that you take a close look at yourself and ask yourself, are you really Making the impact that you're capable of making. And if the visionary integrator structure is something that you think might be able to help you do more of that, then please explore it, please get some help with it and go out there and make the world a better place.

I love that. It's perfect. And I will probe that even one more. If you have that feeling as a visionary that you are leaving impact and value on the table, then you should really look at this because it is the way to turn your passion, your energy into results. And if you're not finding that duo, that pair that partners in crime, that two halves of the brain is some way, you probably are leaving that money on the table, leaving that value on the table. Because money follows value. Well, man, I'm super grateful if somebody wants to continue the conversation with you, find out what you're up to ongoing now and in the future. How does somebody easily find you?

So, Mark C. Winters pretty much everywhere. So markcwinters.com and on all the socials is the easiest way to get to me. And then Rocketfueluniversity.com is everything, Rocket fuel. So lots of things to help people there.

That's great stuff. And the content, the training, the community is all blooming in that world. It's just so exciting and it's so much learning is happening. It's amazing to see how people are finding not just the visionaries getting their best business and therefore best life. These integrators, they're like, oh my gosh, I have a tribe. Oh my gosh. I mean, how many integrator stories do people, when they get identified as valuable, cry because they felt like they were misfits until they realized they were actually valuable?

Yeah, it's a classic I'm not alone experience for them. And it really is cool. You know, we get them together in our master classes and they just talk. They're just like shocked that there's other people like them and they. And they love it.

So, yeah, it's awesome. Well, great. I'm grateful for the time, grateful for the knowledge you're sharing. Look forward to seeing you soon in our community interactions that happen now and again. But thanks again.

Thanks, Mark.

So that's it for today. If you like this episode, if you had value, please share it with people you also think would have value. And if you hated it, we would love to have that feedback as well. Any kind of feedback, positive, negative, super valuable to us. It helps us be make the show that much better. But until next time, we will see you. Well, I said that wrong. I will see you. Next time on youn're doing it wrong with me, Mark henderson leary.

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