Mastering Collaboration with the Visionary/Integrator™ Relationship | Steve Lawson and Carl Hardee

When we established EOS would call it process, but when we established parameters and guardrails if you will, on what we were even interested in doing with a real estate deal and stopped looking at everything and really focused on what we were good at, things really came alive and the team appreciated that discipline and have done just a wonderful job in taking that and run it in finding those sweet spots as opposed to looking at just a myriad of things and sizes and albatrosses if you will.

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Rocket Fuel Podcast where visionary and integrator duos from entrepreneurial companies share a behind the scenes look at their relationship. These amazing leaders blend their unique skills to create Rocket Fuel. I'm your host, Mark C. Winners, co author of Rocket Fuel and an expert EOS implementer. Today I'm excited to welcome Steve Lawson and Carl Hardy of the Lawson Companies, Inc. A real estate firm specializing in developing, constructing and managing affordable and conventional market rate multifamily housing communities in Virginia. Not only are these guys inspiring in the ways they focus on providing affordable homes, but their passion for their visionary integrated relationship models just how much professional and personal growth you can experience with eos. In this episode we explore how they found their yin and yang partnership before eos and how that foundation allowed both.

To explore the right seats for each.

The Rocket Fuel Power Index sets up the conversation on the tools and processes that built their business and dynamic. We're starting the show with Steve sharing the journey of moving through the family business together and how it shaped the way he approached taking over the visionary role from his father. Let's dive right in.

We both happened to work for a company that my father started in 1972 and are very fortunate to have been working for that company for now, both of us, over 30 years. So we met at the company Carl on a different path. I came in actually after Carl. So Carl has worked with the company longer than I have. And so coming up through the ranks, Carl and I started working together probably on a fairly close basis a little bit over 20 years ago. It was pretty clear to me at the time that I needed help first of all, and that Carl was a guy who I could rely on in every way to do the right thing and do what needed to be done.

So were you friends before that or was that kind of your first meeting was working together?

We had mutual friends but were not friends before.

Gotcha. So you knew of each other and then in the company you started to spend time together and sort of appreciate each other. And so when you think about that journey. You didn't know probably of visionary and integrator or any of that stuff when you first met. But you know, what was it when you first discovered that you had a complimentary relationship and that there might be a structure out there to help you get more out of that, get more power out of that combination? How'd you find out about it?

It actually happened well before being introduced to EOS or Rocket Fuel. He laughed and said we were yin and yang. And rather than it being blind spots, we found that we complemented each other with the different DNA that both of us have and how we approach things. So I had come straight from Virginia Military Institute in the army and came out of a war. I'd been in a leadership position and have always been in leadership positions here. And I'm fourth generation investment real estate and I was going to learn for a few years and as the oldest son go back and run the family business. Steve Duke graduate, civil engineer, went out in the maritime engineering for world for a little bit. Went back to Duke to Fuqua and got a MBA and came with the company. Looking down a specific project, found he liked it here, he liked what we were doing and he's always been heavily involved in associations and I've naturally been kind of the chief operating officer as we got into this relationship. And it really was the VI partnership before we were ever introduced to it. So you helped solidify a lot of things and also from a simplicity of crap. We wish we had thought of that beforehand. It would have made things a lot.

Easier if you'd just written it down. Gino and I would have even had to write the book. That's so cool.

Carl and I are visionary integrator long before we even knew what that was. And it was really eye opening reading the book. First eos, then Rocket Fuel and starting to understand that I had a hard time with it at first. I can tell you that because.

Tell me about it.

Visionary. To me, Steve Jobs is a visionary. I'm a schmuck. I'm just trying to do something good in the real estate world. But the reality is the role that I needed to play, the role that I needed to embrace and not screw up Carl trying to run the company. That role was visionary.

Love that. So I know April, our producer, told me one of you said something along the lines of Carl saves Steve from Steve. What does that mean? What does that mean? What does that look like?

That's a quote from me because this is the yin and yang and this is my lack of attention Span. This is my analyzing. This is my onto the next thing. This is all my sort of visionary qualities rolled into one. And then Carl going, wait a minute, Steve, we need a decision on this. We have to move this forward. And pinning me down, Carl, do you.

See how he feels that way? What are the things that you do that you think he could interpret as well? He's kind of saving me from myself.

That topic's actually been one we've talked about for years, probably decades. And it actually works both ways because I want to go so fast and get things done. There's times that tapping the brakes make a lot of sense to think through other elements of it as opposed to this is what I think right now is the most efficient path to success or whatever it is of that task, if it's task oriented. So it's been a lot more of. We've had a lot of growth, introspection, a lot of books, a lot of reading. And I think the greatest of all is the emotional intelligence that has occurred as time progresses and life kicks you in the teeth or different experiences occur. And it just works really well right now. It's and has for a long time. Once we got it was before we read Radical Candor from Kim Scott. We realized we. There was a communication disconnect at times or yes, it was a conflict avoidance that may have occurred or Southern Nice and boardroom etiquette, if you will, as opposed to just say it and let's get there. And once we got past that point, we really started clicking. Prior to that, it was a little bit of an awkward dance from time to time for years.

And once you got where you could just rip the band aid off and let it fly, that sort of released the brake. So I can tell you come from really different paths to when you first kind of met. You've got different experiences prior to that and you've got some shared experiences along the way. You've both taken the rocket fuel assessments and Steve, you're high on the visionary and low on the integrator. And Carl, you're high on the integrator and lower on the visionary. So that's great. That's just the way we'd like to be able to draw it up every time if we could. So that said, you're different. But do you find that there are some areas where you still kind of. You're both wired for that one thing, that one. And you fight for the wheel a little bit. You still tend to step on each other. Is there something where you have overlap like that.

I can speak to that.

Mark.

Yes is the answer. Visionaries are supposed to be airheads and not.

That's not, that's not.

I know that's not fair, but you realize I am the odd man out here.

My numbers are more that way than yours are.

Oh, really? Okay.

Yeah, so call me on that.

That's good to know.

We'll get it later.

Most of us came up the vis and integrators. I mean, we came up through the business. So my job 20 years ago was being an unequivocal detail guy. And so the transition, that's actually been the hardest thing for me is to let go of the vine. And that's where I keep enough of a finger in the pie to just screw up the process. And if we don't define good processes around what my involvement is at the sort of outer edges of, of the organization or specifically where my input is needed, then we run into problems or really I just, I slow things down.

But we both mark. We think on the 30,000 foot mark a lot of times. So me jumping down into the details at times is challenging. Or I love the train people. And so working through to try to get others to do things and get it done well is a common goal. But when we get going in a conversation about where are we headed or where are we going, the high visionary elements that I have as well with Steve, we can waste a lot of hours.

Oh, yeah, right.

Fun now, isn't it? Yeah.

And we're both active in associations and boards and advisory boards in the different. In the industry. So that's not really stepping on each other though. It's more complementary of who we migrate, of the relationships we built within those organizations.

Yeah. One of the things that we see is you've gotta be close enough teaching. You're talking just kind of using the altitude concept. Right. You gotta be flying in the same range of altitude to be able to understand each other. And one of you is flying higher, one of you is flying a little bit lower. If I've got somebody flying at ground level and somebody else flying at 50,000ft, that's not going to work because they do not speak the same language. And so that's good. So when you think about the places that you get stuck or the places that it gets hard, Steve, what was the last thing that you let go of? What was the thing that you held onto the longest, that you were most fearful or resistant or whatever was going on there about letting go? Do you remember?

Yeah, I think it's. And I'm still maybe a little bit guilty of having my fingers in the deal side. In the real estate business, if you've made it this far, you're probably a deal junkie. And so you just, you see a piece of dirt, you see an opportunity, you see something. And that is. It's candy. It really is. Is it shiny stuff? Sometimes? Is it stuff that we should chase after? Absolutely, a lot of times. But is it something that I should be spending my time directly on? There's the challenge.

So what's your mechanism to help keep you from just pulling the trigger and charging ahead on something before you kind of check it against that filter of is this something we should do and is it something that I should be driving?

It's a handoff. And what we've instituted in our process is a handoff. If an opportunity comes across my desk or if it's a relationship that I have, then I will take the first couple of steps, hand the ball off, and let the team run with it. And our team has done a fantastic job taking that ball and pushing it down the field.

Karl, has he gotten better?

He really has. When we established eos would call it process, but when we established parameters and guardrails, if you will, and what we were even interested in doing with a real estate deal and stopped looking at everything and really focused on what we were good at, things really came alive and the team appreciated that discipline and have done just a wonderful job in taking that and running and finding those sweet spots as opposed to looking at just a myriad of things and sizes and albatrosses, if you will.

Right. So, Steve, your language of deal junkie kind of makes me. I see somebody who's there's addicted to something, an activity. A lot of times it's a habit. Right. So visionaries definitely fit that pattern. And I'm just picturing that you gotta call your. It's a 12 step program. You gotta call your sponsor and the integrators. Like I saw one, I want to grab it. So you got to call your sponsor over here and let him talk you into. Back to the process, back to your protocol for how you handle that.

So the anecdotes in both EOS and Rocket Fuel were great for me. And I read the two back to back, which was fantastic. And at that point I had just enough self awareness around this to read those anecdotes and go, yeah, that's me. Check. I do that bad thing. Next. Check. I do that too. Yeah, oh yeah, I'm expert. So those were really Helpful. Those hit home and it was just. It helped. It helped create the epiphany that made me buy five of each and hand them out to my senior team.

I love that. It's funny, we'll be talking to a room full of visionaries, integrators or whatever about the book, and we're just kind of teaching the concept for the first time. We start talking about the visionary and all these kind of superpowers. You can see them all just kind of sitting up in their chair getting tall. It's kind of like, okay, hang on, here comes the other shoe, right? We've all got these things that are our weaknesses, our kryptonite, our stuff that gets in our way. And integrators have them too. And it's recognizing that, being aware of it. Because a lot of times for the entrepreneur on their journey coming up, you gotta do everything right. You gotta do all kinds of stuff, including a bunch of stuff that you don't really want to do that you're probably not very good at, but you think because you've been doing it that you are. And so we'll use that language of just because you can do that stuff doesn't mean you should be the one doing it. Let's let the people who are wired for that do that stuff. And if we can get everybody in their right seat, particularly the visionary and the integrator, where they're really focused on that stuff they love doing and they are magnificent at arguably better than anybody in the company, then that's when it really starts to sing.

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So talk to me a little bit about your company, your industry. One of the things that I read in the notes. So, Steve, you were recognized with the Urban League of Hampton Roads Martin Luther King community leader award in housing in 2023. Okay, so that sounds like a pretty big deal. So what makes you so passionate about this work that you do in this company?

First of all, I want to add a caveat to that. When I'm recognized, our team is recognized because it's not me, it's our whole team that does some really great work and that I was Incredibly honored to be recognized in that capacity. To have my name in the same sentence is an honor. To be honored with other folks that I was honored with that year and other years is incredibly humbling. But what we do really does make a difference because affordable housing is in such great need right now. And I could bore you to tears for the details and why that is the case. But the fact of the matter is it's really hard to build. It's hard to find the funding, it's hard to get the approvals. The regulatory frameworks in every municipality are like mazes. All of these things make it really hard to build. But when we are successful and we're able to produce affordable apartment homes for families, then it's a great pat on the back for all of us. It feels good and I get intrinsic satisfaction out of it because we've created something. You can touch it, you can feel it, you can see it, you drive by it and say, we made that and it's in their homes for families that really need it.

So has affordable housing always been a core focus for the Lawson companies or is that something that has evolved over time?

My father was very active in affordable housing back in the 70s and those programs and those ebbed and the company got more into market rate housing. And we've sort of flowed now to this, to that place where we are doing mostly affordable housing. But it's difficult. It's a hard business, especially right now when interest rates have essentially doubled over the last couple of years and construction costs have gone up by 40% or more. So it's a real challenge.

It's a very different market.

It's a different product mark than what anybody thinks of. It really is. It's the service industry, it's working families. It's not an inner city project based section 8 job. It's more toward a lot of those folks just starting off or in service roles. And it's so much nicer than any apartment Steve or I ever lived in with granite countertops and fitness centers and dog parks and dog washing stations and all these other things that are.

Wow.

That you look at. And it's a. For all intents and purposes, it's a class A construction that rents are just half of what market rate rents are.

Our goal is to build affordable housing that's indistinguishable from market rent. And the team has done a fantastic job making that vision come to life.

That seems like a very worthy focus. So I love that. So let's talk about again. You guys have known each other for a long, long time. You naturally fell into these visionary integrator roles before you even knew that language. So it's a journey to keep growing and getting better at what we do, mastering our craft. We'll talk about it. So Carl, maybe you start off what do you do to continue to get better and better and better as an integrator, to really try to master your craft, if you will, in that seat.

This one's really a marketing plug for you and what you've accomplished. I had never been a part of a peer group before and I took the Integrator Masterclass, I think it was back in 2018 and then ran into you in Florida at the cocktail party and there was something, a snippet on the Integrator Mastery forum and I saw you and started asking you about it and then a couple other people who were the early members of it and it intrigued me. And since joining that it's kind of the concept steel, sharpened steel. It's where we we're our own worst enemies. And when you're in a peer group and you're like, hey, I have this issue and it seems to be universal that it's not industry specific. Most times a people issue or seems to run the course of a lot of it, you know this, the group looks at each other and just tells it like it is. And they say, you know the answer to that. Why aren't you not doing it? Or if it's your processes are messed up or something's not occurring. Well and I have found so much value in the IMF community that I'm a huge supporter that and I we've been at it now since 2017, running on EOS with a implementer. We were getting ready to and his name's Randy Tausig. Great guy, Randy. I'm sure he's been at it for a long time and getting ready to retire. He was going to graduate us is what he called us. But we think that we see the value in implementer and can't imagine self implementing with us because we think that assistance, the return on investment on that has been so valuable that we're actually in conversations and he's helping relationships too to possibly shift to another one, a different one and just get a different flavor if you will with us and continue to just hear it from instead of hearing it from dad, maybe we're hearing it from an uncle or an aunt and same message but it just resonates and so it's exciting.

Randy's too young to retire he was in boot camp with me. Yeah.

Now he's retiring us, so.

And Carl, I appreciate you bringing up the integrated mastery form. Love having you in there as part of that. And one of the things that I get to see is a lot of times when people first show up and they take that masterclass, the big aha for them is that they're not alone. There's other people out there like them that are facing the same kind of challenges that they are. And so it's. That's kind of a comforting feeling. And then you get to learn. They help you with your issues, you help them with theirs. And a lot of times what I've found in peer groups is sometimes I learn more from somebody else's issue than from my own because they'll ask something or bring something up and I'm like, man, I didn't even think about that. But you know what, that actually applies to me. So I'm glad to hear you getting value out of that. Steve, what about you? So for the visionary seat, what do you do to keep growing and keep developing and really mastering your role as visionary?

Yeah, I'm not aware that there's a visionary mastery for them because they probably can't herd cats. What I try to do is check myself and this whole eos and life in general, it's a journey of self awareness and trying to get more self awareness around what I do, what I don't do, what I do well, what I don't do well. And eos and rocket fuel have been great resources around defining that. And the guardrails, where I should be and where I shouldn't be within the organization. And so what I should be working on and what I shouldn't be working on. And that's been great. But in general, I think one of the things that we've, the EOS rocket fuel really helped us do is prioritize the development of our team. And the quote that comes to mind, I can't remember where it's from. Better people make better leaders. And so the more we can be introspective and be self aware and learn and grow, personal growth is that thing that has really helped me get from where I used to be to where I am today, which is a better place for the organization, a better place for me, but we're far from done. Sometimes I feel like we've just scratched the surface with eos because there's so much to do and we can get so much better. But every step along the way is a fantastic leap.

Steve and I have been going to the conferences for quite a while now and even attended them during COVID so remotely.

It was.

It really is a great reset. And as you said, the idea is you pick up from others that we realize how much work we still have to go and do. There's so much refinement, or we thought we were putting things in correctly only to go, oh, we are way off the mark on that. It's interesting the how much to do compared to the capacity and time while we're trying to do the real estate gig at the same time.

Right. And so, Steve, another note to you. I heard that one of the things we teach is clarity breaks, and I heard you do yours while kite surfing. Is that right?

And I discovered EOS on a kite surfing trip many years ago, probably from somebody. You know, I didn't know to call it a clarity break at the time, but what it was was a clarity break. I was taking a kind of personal sabbatical. And so it was just me. I was in a tiny little town on the Baja Gulf of Baja, and I would kite surf in the afternoon, wipe myself out, and then think and read and work during the day to try to figure out the things that I now have a structure around. That structure is called Eos and the Visionary Integrators Duo. So when I was there, I met this guy and similar backgrounds, second generation company came up through the ranks. He's in architecture, actually, and so we're in buildings, you know, just started talking and he described, and I don't think this is speaking out of school, but he described life sort of before 2008 and this struggles everybody in the industry went through after 2008 and then finding EOs and where they ended up. Several years later, he said, we used to be a solid B firm, but we were still chasing after business everywhere we went. And a few years later, business was walking in the door. 95% of our business was walking in the door. And that was Matt Rossetti.

Yeah, love that.

And so he said, you need to read this book. So when I got back to civilization, the first thing I did was download the book on my iPad, tear through it, and that's when all the epiphanies just started rolling out of it.

Oh, that's so cool. And sometimes when the student, they'll saying, when the student is ready, the teacher appears, Right? But you got it. You got to get to that spot, but you got to be open to it. You got to be eyes open, ears open, so that you identify when it comes in front of you. That's super cool. So, all right, you've been doing this for a while. We got a lot of people listening that are. They're either visionaries or integrators, or they're people that are trying to figure that out, or they're interested in visionaries and integrators. So as you look back on your own journey, what's the thing that you wish somebody had told you way back when that might have helped you get there a little bit faster or with a little bit less pain?

So Steve, to his credit, and this is his emotional intelligence, was rather than come and jam it down our throat going, all right, guys, I read this latest greatest book, and here I want us to do this. He said, I've read one that's a lot different than some of the others we've read and love you guys to read it and tell us what you think about it. And he stayed silent. And after about three, four months, I looked at the other officers in the company. I was like, have you guys read this yet? Nobody had. Was like, okay, we ought to read this. We got to get back to Steve. And came back and we were going, how do you sign us up yesterday, knowing what we know through those principles are so simple principles. Hard to do, but simple principles that if we had had that level of clarity and discipline early on in the 30 years, not that you can say woulda, shoulda, coulda, but I was so glad we found it, and that's Steve was on that trip, that we are a different firm, different organization altogether because of what EOS has brought to us. And just hats off to you and Gino and all of y' all who are doing the good work.

Y' all are the ones doing the work. Steve, what about for you? What do you wish somebody had told you even sooner than that kite sailing trip?

Yeah, I wish somebody had said visionary is a real job, because I struggled with that. And it's real and it's a lot of work, but somebody's got to do it within the organization. It was obvious to me after really looking at it, that's the job that I should be in. And the benefits of delegating and elevating into that position are just so huge.

It's interesting. And this is true for visionaries, also true for integrators. When you're really. When you're in the right seat there, when you're really wired for that, it's a lot of work, but it doesn't always feel like work. It sometimes feels like, man, I'm not really doing anything. But to an outsider looking in, that's not wired the way you are, making it look easy. And they're like, I couldn't do that or it would be really hard for me. It would take a lot of energy for me to do that more than they do. They make it look easy somehow. So I love that it's a real job. They both are. So before we wrap up here, people listen. They want to learn more about your business and what you're doing, the impact you're having. They want to learn more about you guys. We'll put the details in the show notes, but at a high level. What's the best way for people to reach out and learn more?

Our website is a great resource, LawsonCompanies.com but I would also, I'd encourage people to get involved in land use policy in their own town. Because the biggest thing we need right now, now I'm on my soapbox, but the biggest thing we need right now is in this country is more supply of housing. We've under built for decades and decades. And now the millennials have the nerve to actually grow up and enter their household formation years. And they need houses, they need great places to live, really cool places to live, vibrant places to live. And our zoning codes are holding that back. So get involved. More supply.

Thanks for sharing that And I love hearing how y' all are doing that in a different way, in a better way. Carl, Any, any other way people want to reach out and learn more about.

I would say there is a lot of opportunity in good hard working blue collar jobs. Construction trades are just ripe in opportunity. Go in, learn and if you have the goods come move up through, become a business owner of your own. In that it is a fantastic career. And there is no shortage of work. There's just right now a shortage of skilled labor. So we are all in great need that if anybody wants to see something tangible that they helped to create, it's a wonderful field to be in. And when you see families living in these communities, and we also have a little bit of a nonprofit slant if you will too. We do a lot of resident services and try to assist folks through a number of those means. But to see the difference it makes in families, this is the nicest home they may have ever lived in. It really is cool to hear their testimonials. And they give it so freely where you just walk the communities.

This is why I love entrepreneurs. Right? You're making a difference, you're changing the world. And you're changing these people's lives and then that ripples on and they go and something changes because they're changed. And it's just a powerful, powerful thing you're doing.

One last, on a light note.

Yeah.

So three things. One, visionaries have no rocks. Two, see number one. Three, C, number two. So my point is to the budding visionaries out there, if you can find a rockstar integrator. And Carl and I have a great VI relationship very much. I appreciate Carl so much because that frees you up to do the things that really excite you. So it's just, it's fantastic.

And if I may piggyback on, it's really cool when you are in the right situation. We love each other. It is just a, a wonderful thing. And excited about the times, the same page meetings that we have that we can share things with it. And Steve's just a great guy. His family are incredible and we've got a lot of wonderful people here.

Well, I can tell that you're, you're quality individuals and have a quality relationship and a quality company. And so the world just needs more, more of what you two are doing. And so I love this. Steve and Carl, I'm so grateful for both of you, for what you're doing with your company. Grateful to you for taking the time to spend with me and our listeners today. I know that someone has been helped. So somebody out there has heard something today that's moving them a little bit closer to where they're trying to get and that's because of you. So to our listeners, thanks for listening. Hope you've enjoyed what you've heard today. So if you did, I'd love for you to go leave a review. When you leave a review that you like what you heard, more people find out about us and we're just trying to spread the word a little bit on things that we've learned that have helped us and helped others and hopefully help more people. So I appreciate you putting the word out there. And until next time, go rock it.

Hey everybody.

Hope you enjoyed our conversation with Steve and Carl. A lot of fun, great people, great company. So now let's go to the rocket fuel toolbox. So one of the things that you heard is these guys have had a really long relationship, 30 years. And they sort of intuitively got into this visionary integrator structure before they even learned about it. And so there's a lot of things that happen with them that are pretty intuitive. They're fortunate in that regard. Now they got some structure that they brought around their relationship through the five rules and the five tools. But there's another tool out there that can help you make visible in your relationship some of the things that Carl and Steve seem to be doing naturally. So it's called the Rocket Fuel Power Index. And the Rocket Fuel Power Index takes you through eight different mindsets that are really essential for the visionary integrator relationship. Both the visionary and the integrator fill it out on their own, and they kind of read the scale and they kind of decide for each area how well they think they're doing. So we've got descriptions of what really, really good looks like and what really not so good looks like and everything in between. So you decide where you are in each of those eight areas, and then both of you bring your worksheet into the same page meeting, and you sit down in that same page meeting and you compare notes. And there may be some things where you're seeing it exactly the same way and maybe you're doing really well, maybe you see it exactly the same way and you're not where you want to be, so you decide to make that a focus on which to improve. Or maybe one of you thinks you're doing really well and one of you doesn't, and that's really where we want to drive the conversation, to talk about those things that you're not seeing the same way and really get down to the roots of what's going on there and where you really are in a way that you can both see it in a shared perspective and decide, is that where you want it to be? Or is that something we want to move the needle forward and you begin to prioritize and go, okay, let's work on this first, let's work on this next. And slowly, over time, by doing that Rocket Fuel Power Index every quarter, we bring the opportunities into focus to really make that visionary integrator relationship as powerful as it can be. And that's the whole idea, right? It's all about tapping into that power of potential of the difference between the two roles, the visionary and the integrator. So if you want to learn more, please go to rocketfueluniversity.com and there's the assessment you can take there that will help you. You can learn more about the other rocket fuel tools that we have that you can learn from. Join the community. We've got lots of great visionaries and integrators. Love to see you in there. Love to see you become a part of Rocket Fuel University. So until next time. Go Rocket.

Thank you for joining me today for another inspiring story. Are you an integrator? Are you ready to begin your journey to Integrator mastery? Visit Rocket Fuel University to join the free Rocket Fuel community and learn how to register for an upcoming Integrator Masterclass. Frustrated by the complexities of running a business? EOS1 is the simple to use software that brings your foundational business tools together in one place. It helps you run meetings people actually look forward to, creates a space for uniting your team around a shared vision, and gives you what you need to build a more trusting and accountable culture. Begin your 30 day free trial today at eos1.com.