Progress, Not Perfection | Kelly Knight & Mark O’Donnell

Go find yourself an integrator who can match you in your pacing, your speed, your style, so that you can ultimately go up that mountain together and come down together versus leaving her up at the top.

Hey, this is Mark Z. Winters, co author of Rocket Fuel and expert EOS implementer. Welcome to the Rocket Fuel podcast where visionary and integrator duos from entrepreneurial companies share a behind the scenes look at their relationship. These amazing leaders blend their unique skills to create what we call Rocket Fuel. I'm really excited to introduce today's two guests to you. Kelly Knight is the integrator of EOS Worldwide and Mark o' Donnell is the visionary. Together they have formed a partnership that has truly transformed the culture and growth within eos. In this episode, Kelly and Mark share what they believe makes a truly great visionary and integrator. Team work, including the ESS characteristics that determine the success of the partnership. They describe the steps they each take individually to ensure they remain on the same page and how they have overcome challenges along their journey. We're going to begin the show partway through our conversation. So, Mark, Kelly, I'm so excited to have both of you here today for the Rocket Fuel podcast. I've been looking forward to this conversation. So welcome to the show.

Thank you for having us.

You bet. My pleasure. And for the listener, thank you. Kelly is the integrator at EOS Worldwide. Mark o' Donnell is the visionary at EOS Worldwide. So I've known both of these folks for a little while, so this should be a very interesting conversation. We're all very excited to see where it ends up going. So to kind of kick us off, Mark, I've met you first and so if you'll just tell us a little bit about how you first came to EOS Worldwide not as the visionary, but how you first got involved in the EOS Worldwide community. Love to hear that. Sure.

So I call myself the accidental implementer because I so for people who know Colby, I'm a 2 2, 10, 3 and so I started self implementing in my companies and signed up for EOS Bootcamp at the same time. But I didn't actually know what I was signing up for. I just thought, oh, instead of finishing the book, I'll just sign up for Bootcamp and they'll finish it for me and teach me how to implement this. My business is better. So I went to Bootcamp in August of 2014 is where we train implementers to become EOS implementers. Had no intention of starting an implementer business. Didn't know what I signed up for, sat in Gino's office in Michigan somewhere with eight other people and really just fell in love with the community and the process. After training, we put everyone to qce, a quarterly collaborative exchange. And I joke that I'm not sure if I joined a cult or I was surrounded with my people for the first time ever. And I'm not sure there's much of a difference. It's more of a culture than a cult, for sure. But. So I went to boot camp, went to qce, fell in love with the community, and it was about six months after that I was implementing in my companies. We hired an implementer to do the others and fell in love with the process, stayed in love with the people, served as a certified EOS implementer for about seven years, then coach, then head coach, and then ultimately visionary here at eos.

So for the folks that are listening, what does it mean to be a coach in the EOS Worldwide community?

Yeah, so a coach inside the community is someone, we'll call them a collie, you know, the sheep herding dog that really just helps implementers get what they want out of their implementer practice. Answer questions for them, talk about EOS purity and answer those types of questions. Really just coach them to help them get what they want from their implementer business. 20 clients in their backyard.

Perfect. Thanks for that. We'll come back to the visionary piece of that journey here in a second. And so, Kelly Knight, talk to us a little bit about how you came to EOS Worldwide.

Well, I find myself an accidental integrator, maybe Mark. On the flip side, I spent the Greater part of 20 years in the financial services industry. So being a financial advisor, I grew that business, sold it, did a startup in Newport Beach, California for a managed money business, spent seven fun years building that from scratch, and then got plucked away to kind of do a takeover financial services deal here in Michigan for just a few years. And then one mysterious day, I get a call from a recruiter looking to hire for the integrator of US Worldwide. And so.

And did you know what that was? Did that, what did that mean when you first heard that term?

Interestingly, the CEO that I had worked with just prior had given me rocket fuel. So I had my rocket fuel. That's my first US bookmark. And so I read it and recognized, ooh, I'm that. But didn't fully appreciate that I was an integrator until coming here quite candidly. So meeting with Gino and Don and Mike Peyton, that was really the opportunity for me to understand fully what the scope of what an integrator is.

So let's kind of set that up. So when you joined the organization, Mark was not the visionary. Who is the visionary?

Mike Peyton was the visionary at the time.

Mike Peyton was the visionary.

He was the visionary. He was the successor to Gino Wickman, of course, our founder, creator of everything eos. And so he had been tapped on the shoulder as an EOS implementer by Gino and said, hey, I think that you are the one. So that succession plan had been fulfilled. And then after he was in the seat, it was then that Don Tinney, who was the integrator, the original integrator, was likewise doing the same process.

Right. So really interesting experience. I want to kind of tap into there, Kelly, for you. So when you came on board, you had some, some folks around with lots of experience, right. So you had Gino and you know, fortunately he has this ability to think and plan way out. And so as you mentioned, the succession plans were in place and being executed and he's still around at that, you know, still around in a, in a certain advisory role. Right. And then Ayton, obviously, who's been here for a long time, you know, he's there. And then you've got Don Tenney, who was the integrator up until. Up until you showed up. Right. So you've got these folks to kind of learn from as you're trying to plug in and figure out how you can be effective as quickly as possible. Talk to me about how they helped you out of the gate.

Well, I mean, you could not ask for better mentors, navigators, supporters, ever. I would have done this for free to work with the three of them, quite candidly. So they're just amazing in their own right. So Gino, probably the most disciplined human I've ever had the privilege to work with. And for, in the sense that he's a visionary and an integrator, it's a rare and special thing. But his rigor around and discipline around the business and all the things that he taught me that I thought I was pretty good at that candidly, I wasn't a great leader manager until I really learned from him and Don and Peyton as well. And, and then Don is the most wise, kind soul ever. So he really taught me a lot around patience and just going slow to go fast, which is something we teach here at eos. And then Mike Peyton, probably the best verbal and written communicator I've ever worked with, really. And just, just a stellar, you Know, first person for me to pair with as visionary here at eos.

So, so let's talk about some of the specific sort of learning structures that you had. So you and Gina would have a certain kind of meeting pulse. What'd you call that?

We called it monthly navigation meetings. And so it was an opportunity for me to come with all my pressing questions and clarifications. And of course, while EOS is simple, it's not easy. So for years we would meet and we would never run out of material. I could sit with Gino all day, every day probably, but I would come with those. And then Gino is very good at planting seeds for the things that he knows I need, you know, to connect the dots year over year over year. So, I mean, just a. So grateful for all of that mentorship.

Okay, so navigation meetings with Gino, the person who had been here since the very beginning. And then what type of meeting pulse did you have with Don? Did you have something with him that.

Was structured in the first 90 days? It was every single week we would meet. And again, he is very methodical and paced in a way that was comfortable. As an integrator coming into it's a lot to learn. The learning curve here at EOS is quite steep. So that weekly pulse that we had together with was very reassuring and calming to someone who really wanted to do well and didn't necessarily understand a lot of what I was yet getting myself into. And then, like Peyton, we would also have same page meetings once weekly. And that was just a great once weekly for us because the, you know, we were moving quickly. I realized sometimes same page meetings are once monthly, but that's what worked for us in a highly dynamically growing organization with a brand new, fresh out of the gate integrator.

What I see is based on the pace of change in the organization or certainly when there's a new integrator in place, or a visionary in place for that matter. To have those same page meetings more frequently is super helpful. As frequently as you need to to get aligned and on the same page, but never longer apart than monthly. So really interesting how that all kind of worked together. So then Mark comes into the equation or back into the equation in a different role here. And really this was sort of unique. Right? So we see, I would say, 95 plus percent of the time we see a visionary looking for an integrator. So it's sort of the unusual and more rare situation where the integrator is looking for a visionary. So when Peyton decides that he's Going to move out of that seat and you've got to fill the gap and find your complementary puzzle piece. How did give us at least a high level how that process worked well.

And where it started is very different than where it ended. So we knew Mike Peyton decided he wanted to go back and be full time EOS implementer, which we honored and supported 100%. He gave us a one year runaway. So we knew that it was coming. We had gone to the marketplace and hired a recruiting firm to help us search both external to EOS and also vet candidates from within the EOS implementer community. So we were working through that process, through that 90 day process when Covid hit. And so at that time, it was my decision that we were putting to halt the visionary search. It was all hands on deck. Save the company, protect our community, move the company forward. And so ironically, that's really the opening at which Mark and I began to work together. We did what was called Lead now campaigns or IDS sessions with entrepreneurs out in the world. And the only goal at that time was to just help entrepreneurs navigate using some EOS tools. The pandemic.

To clarify, that's, that's Mark stepping up and just being a great citizen of the community. Right. I mean that, that wasn't, he wasn't thinking about at that point being the visionary. He's just, he's just trying to, to help people.

Right. He just kind of, we all stepped up. It's just the kind of guy he is. He was head coach and it just was a natural fit. And C.J. dube and a bunch of other implementers. Right. Everybody just pulled together. But it was born out of that unique experience during crisis that Mark and I realized that we worked pretty well together. It was pretty interesting, it was fun, it was creative. And I think Mark began to think that this was kind of fun and interesting from the work that he was doing in a session room.

So let's hear inside of your brain at that point, Mark. At what point did you kind of start to get some seeds of, you know, what this visionary thing for or the visionary seat for EOS worldwide may be something of interest to me.

Yeah. So people were asking me. One member of the leadership team was asking me to throw my name into the ring 15 minutes after Mike Peyton made the announcement and kept asking me and kept asking me and I was not, it was not something that I was even remotely interested in at the time. And so when we started doing the Lead now campaigns and we were helping the community, I was working with Kelly and the team. And I started to find myself having a lot more fun working with the EOS worldwide leadership team than I was even with my clients. And so that was really the moment in time where I started to shift from an absolute hard no to well, maybe this could be something that's a lot of fun and we could impact a lot of people. And I've had a personal plan, a personal veto to impact the lives of a million people, to help a million people live a life they love. And it turns out that's basically in line with EOS worldwide core focus, which is 100,000 companies running on EOS and or a core target and our core focus of helping entrepreneurs live their ideal lives. And so it started not only was a beginning to have more fun working with the leadership team than my role as an EOS implementer or head coach, I started to see this as a platform in a team that could have a much wider impact than I could possibly do as an implementer.

Okay, so the windows are opened kind of from both sides from Kelly's experience and Mark from your experience too, just from kind of living it. And so then we actually step into the role now. And so you guys became. Or Mark, you stepped into the visionary role how long ago now?

September 2018.

September of 2018. Oh, my goodness.

Sorry. 2020. Okay. Yeah. Why is 2018 stuck in my head?

I don't know. Okay, so we're coming up on two year anniversary then pretty soon. Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. All right, so now let's think about the experience that you've had since you've been together in this, you know, arguably one of the best visionary integrator duos that I've had the pleasure to be around. And so I'm curious, actually, Kelly, let's start with you. When you think about what it takes to be a great visionary. So I'm kind of flipping the question. So when you think about what makes up a truly great visionary, what's kind of a couple of bullet points at least that come to mind for you?

Well, I will say this is something Mark and I have talked about, but also something that Don Tini and I at the US Conference just spoke about. And that's this idea of clock building versus time telling, which is a Jim Collins built to last concept, which is, is, I think, super important to that role. And I would actually love to just read it because his words are far better than my. My describing it. But Jim Collins says you must be a clock builder, not a time teller. Clock building is a Concept developed in a book, Built to Last. He says that leading as a charismatic visionary, a genius with a thousand helpers, is time telling. Shaping a culture that can thrive far beyond any single leader is clock building. Searching for a single great idea on which to build success is time telling. Building an organization that can generate many great ideas over a long period of time is clock building. Enduring greatness requires clock building. So that is, I think, to articulate what's in that role, be it big ideas, big relationships, face of the company, R and D, creative problem solving. But I think that description by Jim Collins is probably the best and most articulate way that I found to describe what a great visionary is.

Great. So take that and think about Mark for a second and what are some specific things maybe that included that Mark does, that shows up, that really helps you from that other side of the two piece puzzle.

Right. So what's really unique about Mark is just the way that he looks at the whole world and the marketplace. The way that he can do research and development and look around corners and, and look at case studies. And how have other organizations done? What has been pretty transformative? We've completely changed our business model from membership to franchise. We've navigated through Covid, we are building software, eos, one platform. And so there's a lot of really innovative, different things that we're having to tackle that we've never done before. But he's a great front runner to look at the world, the industry, and how do we do that, how do we do it right? What's worked, what's failed in the world so that we can model some things and make great progress. And so just a great navigator for thinking, strategic thinking. And then that paired with his just real devotion for our VTO and the vision side of what has always been true, that vision side has evolved a little bit, but it's so fundamentally important to serving the greater good. And he's always about serving the greater good, sometimes at his own discomfort. Meaning that he cares so deeply about serving our clients and community. Right.

Awesome. Love that. All right, so let's flip the question mark. So when you think about what it takes to be a great integrator, sort of classically, how would you sum that up in a few bullet points?

The first part of being a great integrator is being paired with the right visionary. And not every integrator will in the purest sense be a great integrator for me. Or it's different for every visionary. I was thinking about this the other day and my Grandmother came to mind. She was a big Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers fan. And she would always use the quote from. From Ginger Rogers, who said, I did everything that Fred Astaire did, who's considered to be one of the best dancers of all time, backwards and in high heels. And in a lot of ways, that's what Kelly is. She does what I do backwards in high heels. So because it's a difficult part to do, the management to move at the same frequency and cadence that I move in, that creates a great pair, if that makes any sense. Someone who is worried about the team making sure that no one is being left behind. And really it's the same clock building mentality that Kelly says is what a visionary should do. And what an ideal visionary is, is the same mentality a great integr has, which is we're going to build a team for the ages. And to me, that is what a great integrator does. And it's not just about tactical, get things done and make sure that we crack the whip on the team and get the rocks done and those types of things. It's really building in an organization that can grow and scale and ultimately achieve our core target.

Is there anything, I'm just kind of curious, is there any one thing that Kelly does that you think is just, you know, makes her the best match for you? Right. That somebody else that would be a good fit and be a really good integrator. But you know, there's this one thing that's just makes Kelly so right for you as your counterpart.

Yeah. And I would say that's being a great thought partner and Kelly's playing tennis is we just bounce ideas off of one another and it's fluid. There's no. I generally make up my mind through research and development. Right. You pull the levers. If they smile, good. If it doesn't, we'll move on. And so she and I do that back and forth on a very regular basis. From the very first phone call probably we ever had. An hour later, we were still ideating on some particular thing, going back and forth, having those conversations. In a lot of ways, I don't really even need a peer group because Kelly kind of is that thought partner for me. And so that's what. One of the things that of many that she does that is a unique fit for me. And a lot of integrators probably would not enjoy that because there's no. I have no expectation that we're going to go do this. I just. We're just going to go back and forth and we're going to find the.

Right and best answer you can play in that zone. It's safe to kind of kick it around. Right. Where sometimes if you did that, you know, in front of the rest of the organization, that wouldn't be productive.

That would create organizational whiplash, for sure.

Exactly. So that's really cool. So creates that space to be a great, a great thought partner.

And Mark, I would, I would interject on that, though, that Mark is just highly collaborative. And so to the extent that you're a visionary who really enjoys that strategic thinking and back and forth, I think it's a wonderful opportunity. Maybe sometimes a missed opportunity if that's not something you've tried to do before. It kind of depends on, I guess, who you are as a visionary. Know thyself, as Gina will say. But that is a great match for me and Mark and I both in our strengths. Finder, learner is in the top five. So I think that plays into why we really enjoy that exercise very naturally all the time.

So the next thing I want to kind of explore is so you guys seem like you're just a really great fit, but takes a lot of work to maintain a great relationship like this. So what are some of the things that. That you do to make sure that this relationship stays great and hopefully keeps getting better?

To me, it's showing up with the right intentions. And Mark and I do that, I think, every single day. So having the right intentions, both for each other and our team and those that we serve is mission critical. So serving the greater good equals peaceful resolution, as I call it, plus everything in the vto. So it's no matter what's happening, no matter how chaotic, how much change you're going through, dynamic evolution, you've got to help yourself and your team get to peaceful resolution. And then you add in serving everything that's on the BTO and that serves greater good. So I think if that's prevailing every day you wake up, that that's your mission, that's your goal, that's your target. It helps to wipe away the noise of the. Otherwise, what could be pesky, irritating things in our lives that could ding into that greater good?

Sure. So I'm thinking about structurally, so what are some of the things that you sort of proactively do? Right. So, you know, mindset attitude for how you approach things, that's obviously part of it. But you know, you're doing same page meetings.

Right.

So what do those look like now? So you talked about what they Looked like for you with Peyton early on Kelly. So what do they look like for the two of you now?

Today it's still once per week, every Monday for 90 minutes and then once per month for four hours. So that one block every month is really about deep dive strategic thinking about working on the business together. We're still moving very quickly. All the different initiatives that we have here at eos, arguably six companies in one. So that pacing really requires that there's more connection points for he and I. And I believe the once weekly really is the right meeting pulse.

Where do you do it?

It's virtual. Mark is in Pennsylvania, I'm in Michigan. So it looks just like this over zoom and we're on time, start on time, end on time, just like every other meeting. And we're both pretty disciplined about clarity breaks too. So that when we're showing up for those Same page meetings, L10s, quarterly conversations, quarterlies and annuals, we're just really prepared and feeling totally clear.

So do you ever get a chance to have in person face to face.

Other than our quarterlies and our annuals and coming to quarterly collaborative exchanges with our implementer community? No, we do it completely, virtually.

Yeah. And board meetings.

And board meetings. Okay. Do you build in any time around those face to face sessions where the two of you can spend some time, just the two of you?

Oh, for sure.

Last week, you want to give an example in Charleston?

Yeah, sure. We just went for a walk. It was a nice day. We went out to lunch and had some good conversations about where we are with the business and what's coming up for our quarterly and the board meeting and all the prep. And so, yeah, just to walk outside. And I would add that we talk pretty much every day, multiple times a day, depending on what's going on. And so there's not much time that goes by that text messages or phone calls are not flying back and forth.

Right. One of the things that I see is a lot of times visionaries and integrators, we talk about the importance of this same page meeting. Discipline. Right. And they will think that because their offices are close together, because they see each other every day, because they talk all the time or whatever, that they're doing it. And there's something different about that kind of communication and what happens in the sort of the dedicated space of a same page meeting, whether it's going for a walk on zoom or wherever, kind of talk a little bit about what the different things are, different types of things that you get into in a same Page meeting versus the stuff that you get to sort of transactionally day to day. That makes sense. Do you see that?

I do see that. And there's I suppose there we on our same page meetings, it's much more strategic, much higher level and we're intentionally making sure that we don't cause that organizational whiplash. And not that it doesn't happen sometimes, but the whole goal there is that we are on the same page and we decide what's going to be pushed off to next quarter, next year, next 10 years, whatever it might be, and then what are we going to take to the team? So when we enter those level 10 meetings, those weekly meetings with our team, we are totally on the same page and there's very little if ever debate between the two of us in front of the team.

How often are you not on the same page in your same page meeting? How often do you start off, you know, with strong viewpoints that are, that are in opposite directions?

I guess I would describe it as not that we're not on the same page, but we play a lot of devil's advocate. It's really whether we're on the same page or not. It's, we don't take that for granted even when we do start on the same page, that we must look at things from different perspectives. We do a of lot, a lot of that so that whatever decision we end up making, we are same page on that. But honestly, I don't feel like we're often that different starting place. I might be a little bit over here, he might be a little bit over here, but we're somewhere close in the center and we just figure out, you know, who are the who's often is, does this tie to work or focus? Is it close enough to what we do that it's worth considering? And if it is, is it now or is it on our long term issues list? And if it is now or in the future, it's who's the right who. Because we're realizing as a rapidly growing organization, it just can't be Mark or myself. It can't even be our leadership team. Now we're really building that bench strength of mid level managers who are making an amazing difference here at eos. So that's a lot of where we're going to is visioning out, working on the business, tying it to our core focus and then it's really just massaging some of the little things that might be off between the two of us.

It can't be true that there's Never been a case where Mark, you've been like, no, we need to do this. And Kelly, you've been like, no, we need to do that. And you just never could quite get to exactly the same spot, but you had to make a call and you had to do something. So talk to me about one of those kinds of situations.

I want to set a little bit of a context too, in that the puzzle piece of the VI relationship. So Culture Index, which I know, Mark, you're familiar with, the shape of our culture index is the same, mine's just much further apart and Kelly's a little bit more tight. So we are both deductive reasoning people. So that essentially means that we both come in to that same page meeting with general ideas of what we would like to do and what we would want to do, but we need to pull some levers in order to get down to the specific details. And that usually leads to research and development. So I think that helps us when we come into our same page meetings that we're not totally far apart because neither of us has made up our mind on pretty much anything until we started having the, the debate back and forth. And so we just get to the conclusion together, as opposed to me going up to the mountain and coming down saying, hey, we're doing this now. I don't do that and Kelly doesn't either.

Interesting. So you're both coming at it very open minded, sort of exploring and kind of from almost from an R and D kind of a perspective, trying to figure it out, and you're sort of figuring it out together. That's very interesting because super challenging for many, many visionaries out there. As you know, when they clearly see or they think they clearly see what the right answer is. And the integrator has a different perspective because they're seeing some things that frankly the visionary is just not thinking about in terms of competing initiatives for limited resources. Right. And so some duos really, really struggle with that. So it's very interesting to see how you both, because of your thought style, your thinking style, are coming at it at a way that makes those conflicts happen less. Does that sound right?

It is. Right. I would also add that we just have an extremely high level of trust and respect for each other and our roles. And so when there are times when we've had the tennis match, we've gone back and forth, we've done our deductive reasoning, and we might be not quite 100% on the same, we're directionally correct. But Mark feels strongly about something. I'm going to back him if he wants to do that. I'm like, let's go, let's figure it out. I might be a little different page, but that's okay. I can disagree and commit. And there's likewise times that I might be very stubborn and I might feel strongly about something. Maybe it's impacting the team or I'm afraid it might impact the team in a way that that would be unhealthy. He'll back me if I feel strongly about it. So sometimes just having enough of that give and take, that compromise and that makes it a great relationship too. And that's not always true of every visionary integrator as I've spoken with varieties of both.

Sure. So we talked about kind of the things you're doing structurally proactively to try to help keep making the relationship great and improve over time. So if you think about the integrator as a craft and the being a great visionary as a craft. Right. Talk to me a little bit about what you're doing in each of your respective areas to keep make sure you're being the best integrator you can be. Kelly and Mark, best visionary. Kelly, maybe you could start that. What do you do to continue to be great, the best you can be as an integrator?

Sure. Right. So Mark and I do some things very much in parallel that are about the learner profile. So we're both members of Strategic Coach working with Dan Sullivan in the 10x program. So that really feeds who we are as entrepreneurs. Really looking to continue to make great connections, help others and grow in our own craft there. And then Mark brought a great idea to go to Wharton Business School and tackle something that's helping us build a billion dollar organization, a unicorn. And so we're doing that together. We're avid readers, we read tons of books every single year and we'd like part of being groups. You know, I really have been enjoying being part of qie. So the quarterly Integrator exchange of course is part of Rocket Fuel. And that's just been a great community for me to connect with other integr, hear their stories whether they're full time integrators or fractional. So those are some of the keys for me.

Great. Love that. Mark, what else specific to you as a visionary?

I think a couple of things that I do is all the things that Kelly said is what you would expect a visionary to do sort of out of the box, be the learner, pushing the envelope on what the business can do and where you can Take this organization. But as I said before, one of the things that I do is I recognize she's doing what I'm doing backwards in high heels. Right? And so for me, I will do we use impact filters from Strategic Coach, a Dan Sullivan tool. And so I will fill out a lot of those things. And I don't always bring them to the same page meeting because I'm thinking about what's the stress that would put on Kelly and the team? Is this pushing them out too far, too fast? So I'm trying to do my best to put myself in her shoes and say, yeah, we could do this, but it might break the team and that wouldn't be healthy for us. So I'll just put it on the shelf. Or by the time I get to the end of that document, I've sold myself that this is a dumb idea and I just put it in the trash bin. So I think that's the main thing that I do consciously. Yes, it is maintaining total and utmost respect for the person, the relationship, acknowledging the difficulty of the role, and that I can't move quite as fast as I would want to because the old proverb, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And that's really just a mindset of awareness and respect of what the whole team is trying to accomplish.

Love that. Curious. Are you in a visionary oriented peer group right now?

So I am.

I mean, you're in Strategic Coach.

I'm in Strategic Coach. And I'm in C12.

C12. There you go. Okay.

And then I call visionaries for former clients and EOS implementers on a daily basis. Just pulling the windows, see if I can smile.

No, more than a few. Right. So, okay, that's awesome. So how big US worldwide, growing rapidly. The implementer community, how big is it now?

It's about 520, 520.

So through that Mark, you and I, implementers, we've done that for a long time. And so we've got our clients, but through the community, we sort of get to learn and benefit from all the experiences of all these other visionaries and integrators that are out there. So I'm curious, what are some things that you may have heard implementers say about the experiences that their clients had when they had a great integrator, when they had a great visionary integrator duo in place, sort of in contrast with the ones that didn't?

Yeah.

Does that question make sense?

It makes total sense and from my own experience as well, not only from the community. But when you had great vi pairs, you could essentially get anything done. It was really just magical. Every single quarter, they walk in, 80% of their rocks are done. They hit every single one of their measurables, unless something totally strange happened and they could take on big initiatives and they just systematically rode towards that. And then you would see a lot of freedom being created, not only for the visionary, but for the integrator and the leadership team where they weren't putting 80 hours in anymore. They're living a full life, not just a life dedicated to running this entrepreneurial thing that they've created. And so that's what the good ones end up being. They can almost grow at will and they decide how they want to go. Then the companies that don't have a great VI pair, it's either just a visionary or it's that they don't have an integrator. They're trying to sit in two seats or it's just not a great fit. It is complete and utter mayhem. And maybe they get their rocks done and maybe they hit their revenue and profit targets or measurables, but the visionary, they need therapy. They just are frustrated constantly. The integrators, frustrated constantly. They can't keep up with the visionary. The visionary is just ticked off perpetually because they just haven't found the fit. They have no confidence in their ability to execute on the vision. And they feel a little bit like it's a pipe dream.

Right? Love that. Kelly. Anything you would add to that, anything you listen and kind of hear things from a little bit different perspective. You haven't been an implementer, but you've got all these implementers in the organization. So you're hearing things and you're trying to do things to kind of support them and help make it work. Anything that you hear or have heard along the way that's a little different or would add to what Mark just.

Shared, I would just say I know how challenging, or at least I could anticipate how difficult it would be for a visionary to truly delegate, elevate and let go of the vine. And so I often hear that there are integrators who feel a little frustrated because they would love to be the thinking partner with their visionary that I feel blessed to have with Mark. And so getting to the root of why that might be, there might be a confidence issue in that integrator skills that causes the visionary to not want that. There could be a whole blend of other reasons, I suppose, but one of my greatest urgings of integrators is just to be open and honest and have those conversations. If that's something that you're really interested in doing, get to the root of why that might not be. And maybe it's just that the visionary has never thought of it that way, But I just think it's such magic. And when Mark and I talk about our VI relationship and how ideal it really is, it doesn't have to be that we're, you know, a rare commodity, that it's that perfect a match, I think that there's the possibility for that to be true if only there's great conversation and that. Right. Frequency match between the two.

Right. Yeah. Love that. All right, so I want to switch gears a little bit. So we talked about you two spending time together, the South Carolina thing, and obviously you do all the disciplines, but there's a story that happened not too long ago where you kind of went on a big adventure together, and it was, let's go climb a mountain. And so I would love for you to share a little bit about that experience and maybe the lessons that were learned and taken as a VI duo as you kind of went through that together and came out the other side. So, Kelly, maybe you can set that up.

Sure. So last September is when we took a hike, if you will, a climb up Mount Whitney, which is the largest contiguous mountain in the United States. And it was born out of a leadership executive retreat that our owners at Firefly had put together very generously. So. So there were three members of the EOS Worldwide team and members of other portfolio companies that were all part of it. In all, nine people making that hike up Mount Whitney. And so it started off, as you might anticipate. There's the training that goes into it, the rigor of, you know, how do you eat and what are all the things that you need to do to have a successful hike. And while all of that sounds great and it's all textbook, what ultimately ended up happening is we were a couple hours into the hike, and I came down with a terrible case of AMS altitude sickness. So for those who may not be hikers or have experienced creeps up on you, I didn't know that it really was that. I have a history of migraines. I thought, oh, it's just a migraine, no problem. And I popped the pills and had the anti AMS meds that I'd been taking for days. But nonetheless, we're going to climb Mount Whitney because that's who we are at eos. And so we're Going to just keep going. And so we do make it to the summit, but by then I am really sick, vomiting, not entirely conscious the whole time. And now we have to get down 15,000ft to safety, all nine of us.

15,000Ft.

That's a long way. And there's only two places, all of Mount Whitney, for there to be a search and rescue that can land. So what ensued there is, you know, Mark half carrying me down the mountain, other people carrying our backpacks. There's someone else who's right by me, but I mean, there's parts of the mountain that I clearly would have fallen off.

So let me jump in, because at that point, Mark Kelly's out of her mind. Right. And so. And so what are you thinking when you're seeing this happening?

It's getting cold and she's wearing all of my coats. No. So we, as Kelly said, we get to the summit, we start coming down. She's clearly in bad shape, but she was refusing really any help. And we were maybe a half mile off the summit on the way down, and she was behind me. And I turn around and she's got her hiking poles out there, and she's wobbling back and forth. And she was at the part of the ridge where there's like 153 to 300ft sheer drops on one side and the other, and she's wobbling back and forth.

Oh, boy.

And I was like, okay, that's enough. I had enough. I just took her poles from her and said, grab the back of my backpack. I'm gonna drag you down now. And we did that for like the next nine miles. And Derek Smith, one of the partners at Firefly, helped keep her stable, you know, passing out twice and dehydrated and all that. And this is going to be really hard to believe, but the visionary of the group was prepared. And I had a satellite GPS communicator that connects to your phone, and I had a watch that kept you on. So as Kelly said, there's only two points that the helicopter can come get you. And we weren't there yet. We had to go far down. So we pushed the little SOS button. It was getting dark, and we inevitably, we got down. The helicopter came just at about 10,000ft and took Kelly up. And there was parts of the team that you couldn't really make up. I mean, the people that were there. We had someone who was in our group who happened to be in the Navy and landed helicopters on destroyers out in the middle of the ocean because the helicopter Coming down into the mountain on Whitney, it was dark, it's cold, air's thin. So they have to kind of land like an airplane almost. They can't just go straight down. So he knew how to land them. He knew how to signal with our headlamps to get them in the right spot. And when they landed that thing, they were about a foot from a rock on one side and a foot from a tree on the other. And so they just thread that needle, got her in there. And once we were finished, we still had five miles to go in the dark. And so fortunately my watch would tell you if you're going off path. And so we got down to the bottom, ended up to be about 24 hours of a hike.

Supposed to be how long it was.

Supposed to be between 12 and 14 hours. And so we basically doubled it. And so I think a couple of the lessons, one when a team member is clearly visibly down, we knew it, we were like, oh, it's okay. But we were all so goal driven that, and we'll paint it in the context of, of business, is that we were willing to sacrifice team members and the entire trip just to accomplish a goal of the summit. And you know, if you imagine, hey, if we accomplish this rock, we can do it, but we might kill ourselves in the process. It's probably not worth it. So, you know, thinking about the lesson there is you got to play the long game, you got to have tenure thinking like, you know, teaches at a minimum. And so if you have that, you're like, well, okay, we're going to come back down and maybe we'll try tomorrow or try another time, as opposed to just forcing the goal completion in spite of the risks to the long term viability of your being in this case. Right.

And there's no replacement for lived experience either. So even though you have a textbook on how to do this, it all makes sense. You follow the plan. Real world teaches you things that you can't possibly know other than living through it. I mean, a little bit like rocket fuel on the VI journey, you can read about it in rocket fuel. And that's your bible, that's the foundation for that. But the same stroke, living it is going to teach you everything you need to know about it. You know, so that, that's one of the takeaways. And you know, it's incredibly humbling for an integrator who's not accustomed to having to be rescued. Right. I'm the for a living, my job is to prevent problems or solve problems and get us to the end goal to take that vision and execute on it. So it's incredibly humbling to have that story happen and think, do I do that to my team? You know, as a reflection upon that is do I do that to the team when we're so goal oriented that in spite of everything, we could, as Mark said, harm team members or someone in the process.

What was the impact it had for you, Kelly, on trust with Mark? I mean, again, it's you. You live through that together. And so, you know, I mean, not that you didn't trust each other before, but talk about that.

I mean, it was already great, but I mean, somebody who's going to sacrifice themselves to get you down the mountain so you don't die there. I mean, literally, if you look at statistics about Mount Whitney, people fall off the mountain all the time. When they get AMs or they get left behind, they pass out there. I mean, so it is when we're not over exaggerating when we say it was life and death. So his being committed to getting me down that mountain, like we're not going to leave her behind. And David Mann and others on the trip felt that same way. So, I mean, it's, it's hugely trust building. I mean, that is quite literally everything. Life and death.

Yeah, yeah. The shared experience of going through things together, you know, whether it's something like that or just, you know, those kinds of situations, as you know, they come up in entrepreneurial companies all the time where it's serious stuff and people, you know, there's high stakes and the decisions that are made and how we work through them and live through them together, they make all the difference.

One final thing, though, Mark, so a reflection is that status and ego took us up the mountain and faith is what brought us back down. So let's just all remember that. I love that whatever adventures we take.

Thank you so much. That's fantastic. All right, before we wrap, I want to get a nugget from each of you. So, Mark, if you could say one thing to somebody out there who's a visionary that maybe is, you know, they're not in the ideal VI duo right now, and maybe they're in, you know, the, what I call it, a hell that they've created for themselves because they're trying to do it all alone and without the missing piece that they so desperately need, what would you say to them?

I would say keep trying. Keep going at it. Find the integrator who can match you in terms of pace. Because if you feel like that there's a gap being created and you always have to wait and wait for them to catch up. It's gonna. It's not gonna get better. The gap will continue to widen. So go find yourself integrator who can match you in your. Your pacing, your speed, your style, so that you can ultimately go up that mountain together and come down together versus leaving her up at the top.

Right? Very good. Love that, Kelly. Same thing for you. For an integrator that maybe is out there not being an integrator, they may not even realize they may kind of have the skill set, but they may be doing something a little bit different. They're certainly not paired up with somebody that could really go have the kind of impact that a visionary entrepreneur could have with them.

I think if you take the crystallizer assessment, which is available through Rocket Fuel, and that really helps you clearly understand that you're an integrator. And then at that point, it's just honing your craft. It's progress, not perfection. Definitely recommend candidly going through masterclass and becoming part of the quarterly Integrator Exchange. It's just the best place to find people who are like you, who can relate to your troubles and relate to your frustrations and relate to what you get excited about too. There's a great matching program that Rocket Fuel is working on too, so Mark Winters will be sharing more with us about that soon. But yeah, just progress, not perfection. Stay curious. Be a consummate learner. And I am a big power of attraction person. So if you want something very deeply, paint that picture in your mind's eye and manifest that to become real. There's your missing puzzle piece. Somewhere in the world. You just have to find that person.

Love that. Love that. Thank you so much. I could talk to the two of you all day and we would have a great time and learn tons of stuff. So I'm so grateful for both of you and privilege that I get to spend time with you. I think you're a shining example of what a healthy impact, full visionary integrator duo should look like. And I'm so grateful for what impact you are having through EOS worldwide and that organization and the growing implementer community and all the companies running on EOS and all the amazing things that they're doing, not only for the people that work there, for the communities that they operate in. It's just making a huge, huge difference in the world. So thank you for that. So that's a wrap for this episode and until. Until next time. Go Rocket. Thank you for listening. Today. I really hope this episode inspired you to bring Rocket Fuel to your business. If you're interested in learning more about the free community for visionaries, integrators, and the people who support them, please visit rocketfueluniversity.com. Whether you're a visionary or an integrator, Rocket Fuel University was created to help you master your craft and get more out of your business. If you haven't already, join now to access resources like education, educational videos, interactive community forums, and monthly IDS sessions, all for free. Go to rocketfueluniversity.com to get started.