The Power of Process: How EOS® Transformed a Family Business | Brenda Endres Barker and Brian Wirtz

Today's episode was sponsored by People partners in solving issues.

If you just solve them and you don't capture what you're doing, you're having a little bit of impact. But doing both of those, solving them and capturing them, that's been like a huge multiplying effect on our time.

Hey everybody and welcome to the Rocket Fuel podcast where visionary and integrator duos from entrepreneurial companies share a behind the scenes look at their relationship. These amazing leaders blend their unique skills to create Rocket Fuel. I'm your host, Mark C. Winners, co author of Rocket Fuel and an expert EOS implementer. Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Brenda Barker and Brian Wirtz from Barker and Sons Plumbing and Rooter, a family owned and operated business serving Orange county for over 35 years. Their structure is a little different from our other guests. Brenda is the owner and visionary of Barker and Sons Plumbing and Rooter and Brian is a fractional integrator for the business. His in this episode we explore how hiring a fractional integrator can help a family lifestyle business like Barker and Sons Plumbing and Rooter ease into EOS and transform into an exceptionally run organization. We're jumping into the conversation with Brenda sharing the story of her search for an integrator. Let's dive in.

So we were with a best practice organization and they offer us numerous coaches. So we had a coach and I felt like we were a little stagnant and, and I pushed for a different coach. That coach happened to be the coach of all coaches and was starting to transition out of coaching and she would just be coaching the coaches. But she said, I'm going to, I'm going to go ahead and take you. You're going to be my last client. If you don't do what I say, I'm going to fire you. And so are you ready for that? I said, yes, I am. And so as we do our first meeting, she said, can I be brutally honest with you? And she said, basically, you've come as far as you're going to come. You need to get an integrator. And this is why. And she broke down all the reasons. It was a lot to digest. And so she recommended a recruiting company who finds integrators for people. So I met with the guy and we had numerous meetings and long story short, he said, look, you're not ready for an integrator. You haven't done your Vision 1 or Vision 2. You haven't read Traction. I could get you one, but I just don't think at this time it's going to be successful. And obviously I didn't like hearing that she had no idea what a fractional integrator was, and neither did I started. I thought, all right, I read. We started reading the book Traction. So I started the interview process when it just clicked for myself and Brian. And then I realized I didn't know. But it's like, okay, now you have to have an implementer. So I started researching implementers, found out that Victoria Cabot, she. When. When our best practice group adopted EOs, they went to an EOS conference in Atlanta. It was Victoria that let them in last minute. So this best practice organization also runs the organization on eos. So that's when I met quite a few other implementers. But I landed on Victoria. She was so excited about the process and was willing to immediately reach out to Brian, and the two of them connected, and that's where our journey began.

Awesome. Yeah, Victoria is fantastic, and so you're lucky to be with her. And so as you started, you're thinking about an integrator so that, you know, you get nudged towards eos, you get nudged towards, hey, let's do an integrator. You meet Brian, you're feeling good about him, you talk to some others, and then Victoria comes on the scene. The fractional piece of the integrator equation. Tell me why that was the direction you decided to go, or tell me what you first thought when somebody explained to you that there was this thing that people were calling a fractional integrator.

At first I thought, this is a really great option to an integrator, because at this point I could push getting an integrator. But after I started reading Traction, after I started going and reading all the blogs on the EOS site, I was like, all right, maybe this is the better way to go. Maybe this will ease us into the process. I mean, I didn't like it at first, but once I wrapped my head around what it was, I embraced it.

So the thing that was appealing to you about that path was the fact that it wasn't like a. Like a step change, you know, jumping off a cliff. It was like a way to sort of ease into it, a way to sort of move into this new structure. Am I hearing you right?

You're exactly right. In addition, I think I had at least three zoom calls with Brian, and he was very good about breaking it down for me so I could digest what it was and make peace with it, I would say, because I thought we were just going to jump head first, but I actually had no idea what I was jumping headfirst into. I had no idea how complex and deep it was. I just didn't know. But between talking to Brian and Victoria, they both helped me to understand the path. And Victoria was really great about letting me know, you know, you're now going from a family lifestyle business and you're going to go to a professionally run organization. And she was really good about also letting me know, just like my coach did, if you stay where you're at and you don't adopt EOs, if I checked in with you five years, you're going to be at the exact same spot you're going to be, you're going to be, you know, just crashing into walls. And so I would say Brian and Victoria were so great about explaining the process we were about to enter. And honestly, for being in my headspace at that time, as much as I could take in what I did know, that it was the answer and, and that we were stuck where we were, where we were at and we had to do something different.

So, Brian, let me kind of pull you into this. So all this that Brenda's describing, you know, she's kind of going through from her perspective. You've met Brenda. Then Victoria comes onto the scene. Talk to me about, you know, the process and kind of what you were thinking and what you're going through as you're looking at their company, their situation, Brenda and their implementer.

When I was pulled in, Brenda did a great job of kind of explaining exactly what she just said, kind of how their, their journey had unfolded to that point. And she brought me, she kind of brought me into the loop that they had looked for a full time integrator and gotten the feedback that they weren't ready for one. And so that's when I, that's when I started, you know, where we started the conversation is, well, what are the things that make this organization make Barker and Sons not ready for a full time integrator? And really it, without having been through the focus day, Vision building one, vision building two, there was no accountability chart. And as, as we talked about, it's a family owned business. It's been around for, you know, nearly 40 years. Frankly. The accountability chart was kind of like a spaghetti bowl. And it's, it's gotten a lot more, it's gotten a lot more clear over the last year, nearly year and a half. But at the front end, it would have been tough for an integrator to come in unless they were really good at kind of peeling an Onion back and figuring out the pieces and where they go. I think it would have been tough for an integrator to come in, figure out how to even get going. So what we started the conversation with is I said, I think I can help in setting the conditions so that you're ready for somebody to come in and really be that full time person that can help you run and run effectively.

Okay, so a couple of pieces I want to dive into on that. So one, talk about how during that, particularly the early part of the process, you and Victoria, their EOS implementer, worked together.

Absolutely. So I did have a chance to meet Brenda right away and Victoria was also having conversations. So we had a kind of couple of conversations going on and then Victoria and I knew each other, so we had a couple of conversations. When she did the 90 minute meeting, I was there. And then by the time we came out of that 90 minute meeting, there was a decision made to go ahead and move forward with a focus day as well as to move forward with me. So at that point, Victoria and I were collaborating and talking about how we're going to make this successful and we even kind of started using the better together phrasing of the fact that we can both. They're bringing us both in to help get things set and get them set right. We can really be contributing to each other. Because one of the things Victoria and I know other implementers have said a lot of times when they go in and do focus days, do vision building one, vision building two is it's great, everyone's excited in the room, there's a lot of synergy and people commit to, to dos and next steps and then they leave and then life hits them and 30 days later they come back and nothing's happened. So one of the things as a fractional that I was able to bring and that Victoria and I even talked about is I can help make sure that in those interim periods I'm that connecting file week to week to bring things forward. And so that was part of our collaboration.

Yeah. So I love that, you know, and really for those who aren't clear, the integrator and the implementer, they're very different roles. Right. So you know, the implementer's there to teach the system and to teach the tools and the process and really take on that responsibility while the integrator is there to make sure it's happening and following through that. People are, like you said, taking the actions that they committed to take and that we're really implementing the operating system and sticking to it. The other big thing that's going on there is it's sort of the question of, all right, is this the long term answer? So to have someone there, how many days a week, Brian, are you involved?

Usually one day. There's been times when I've taken on a little bit above that, but typically it's about a one day a week engagement.

Okay, so Brenda, when you think down the road, I don't know how far is there a point in time where you need more than that or you need maybe even a full time integrator?

Oh, absolutely. We know we need a full time integrator. And Brian explained initially that part of a fractional integrator is to work their self out of being basically out of a job is to move towards a full time integrator. And so I definitely know we need one. I mean, I wish that he could be here every day.

Right.

I mean, I'm bummed. He is a fractional integrator.

So it's funny, that's sort of what happens a lot of times is it's almost like dating. Right. And so a company will start with somebody on a less than full time basis, but they like them, right? It works. They get to know the person, they build a relationship, there's more trust. And sometimes there's all different models out there, but sometimes that relationship grows to where that actually becomes the full time integrator. You know, Brian's model is he comes in and he helps you get point in the right direction and then helps you find or get ready for and solve then whatever the next move is. And Brian, you've probably heard me talk about this before because the fractional word I think has gotten misconstrued in a number of situations. And so I think about it as simply a function of two things. One is how many days a week or really what percentage of an individual's full time capacity is being devoted to that seat. Because we also have some integrators that they may be full time for the company, but they're a quarter time in the integrator seat because they're also in the op seat or they're also in the finance seat. Right. So they're kind of having to spread their energy around. So it's about how much of your time that you're able to dedicate to the seat. And the other one, I call it engagement. And so some people hear integrator and they think less than full time. And they think, okay, yeah, I need an integrator to come in and run my level 10s. And so when I hear that, it's like, no, that's, you know, a lot of people. Anybody on the leadership team can run a level 10. That's not what we need. It's, you know, the way we describe the role of the integrator and, you know, creating accountability and really kind of bringing the leadership team together and keeping things moving forward, helping break through the ties and having this deep relationship with the visionary. You know, that's what we're talking about, and that's what we're striving for. So, you know, Brenda or Brian, either one of you, I'd kind of be interested in your perspective. Okay, so, you know, Brian's there one day a week. What level of engagement would you say that he's having or Brian that you're having? In terms of the list of things that we would love if a fully engaged integrator to be focused on and.

Doing, I would say that it's amazing what one day a week can do. I mean, I think everybody thinks initially it's about an L10. It's not. It's everything that happens after the L10, and it's everything that happens after the accountability chart's created. It's all of that that I see that that makes me long for it. But it's pretty amazing what Brian can do in one day. You know, he can sit in on a meeting with our coach and know exactly where our P and L is. He can. He can hold people accountable. He can initiate quarterly conversations. I mean, he can create. He can get somebody going on creating processes within playbook, like he does a lot in that one day. He gets a lot of things moving that have to continue throughout the week. And so, no, what I definitely learned is It's. It's. The L10 is just, I mean, the tip of the iceberg. It's. It's not what they do, I would add.

So it's very much not about the time. The time is. The time is what it is. It is a day. But it's. How do you make the most of that? And I think whether you're fractional or you're full time, it's. It's relationships. Leadership plus management equals accountability. But what's all that mean? It's relationships. It's. You have to get individuals who sit in leadership team seats, sometimes other seats. You have to get them engaged and feeling like what you're doing matters. What they're doing matters. That they. They care to deliver, and then we have to solve a lot so. So I'd say a good percentage of it is relationships. And then we ids our butts off in the L10 and outside the L10. One of the things that has been a big factor of success, and Brenda mentioned Playbook as we've worked on, how do we solve the issues that keep happening over and over again permanently. When big things happen, it doesn't have to be in the L10. We bring the right people into the room. And this is just something that I carry in my background is I'm really good at process mapping. I'm really good at having. Leading a conversation to figure out who's doing what, where it goes. And so we did. We've done a lot of whiteboarding, and then we were fortunate enough to have somebody who. Who really had a great talent at taking the products of our whiteboarding and capturing it. And we. We just started throwing it into a tool. There's a lot of tools out there.

We.

We use Playbook Builder, but we just started throwing it into a tool. And then after a little bit of time, we actually found ourselves having some processes documented and in place. And. And so it's relationships on the people side. And then in solving issues, if you just solve them and you don't capture what you're doing, you're. You're having a little bit of impact. But doing both of those, solving them and capturing them, that's been like a. A huge multiplying effect on. On our time. So those are two major things that that day a week accomplishes.

So where are you for that day a week? Are you virtual zooming in? Are you on site? Are you a combination of both?

I come on site, I find anytime I'm able to be on site, I really find that to be the most beneficial. Over the time we've worked together, I have done some additional things that I've done remotely, but that's usually in addition to the one day on site.

Brenda, talk to me about that. So, you know, do you think if he being on site is essential for effectiveness, do you think it plays a role? Do you think somebody that was trying to do it remotely, it would be impossible or just harder?

When I interviewed Brian, I was adamant it had to be on site. And so that one day a week, I mean, is. I look forward to it. And we get so many things done. And as Brian said, though, there's a considerable amount of things that he can do off site too, especially when we have big projects going and stuff. Like when we were talking about Playbook and things like that he can check in with the person doing it and keep that project going. Many things like that he can keep going. And so there are times where it's like, hey, I can do this off site too. But that one day a week is for me personally as, as a visionary, I wanted somebody on site.

And so you know, you're typically that one day is a block. So Brian's on site on, you know, whatever day of the week it is. I mean that's typically how it works.

It's pre planned. There's a lot of stuff going on already. We know that that day is going.

To be packing that day to make it optimally efficient and effective. Right. And so in between, what does the communication look like?

Victoria will usually introduce things in one of our quarterlies and then Brian executes like say quarterly conversations. He's been able to get us moving on all of those and you know, he, he, he will start with us and then we're on our own. We can start to do them by ourselves. Regards, fit checks. Whatever it is, we can start to, he, he does trainings on them, whether it's, you know, delegate and elevate whatever the topic is or EOS tool is. It's introduced to us and then he teaches us how to execute it and then we can start doing it on our own.

So your implementer though teaches it to the leadership team first. So Victoria brings it in and then.

Many times she does, yes, as we've moved through EOS so many times she'll introduce it and you know, it's a day full of all kinds of fun stuff you hear, but the actual, okay, so how do I do this? And that's where Brian comes in. He kind of pushes us to execute on it.

Yeah, he's managing, holding you accountable. Today's episode is sponsored by People Partners. Expensive labor costs compromising your ability to achieve your EOS goals and rocks struggling to scale your team to fulfill your VTO while also hitting profit targets. People Partners can change that. Their tailored offshore staffing solutions ensure you get the right people in the right seats. Seats. Starting at 1171 per month, people Partners can help you enhance operational efficiency and profitability. Go to peoplepartnersbpo.com today. So, Brian, I know you're a veteran. Talk a little bit about how your military background and experience has prepared you to be effective in a role like the integrator role.

Absolutely. So I retired from the marine Corps about 10 years ago. I spent around 20 years on active duty and had a great time doing it. When I came out, I really focused mostly on just taking roles that would give me a general business, generalist experience. And about five years ago, another veteran recommended me to the book Rocket Fuel. I read it, and this whole concept of a visionary and integrator, it rhymed a lot. It sounded a lot like something I did in the military, which you have commanding officers and executive officers. It's a number one and number two command. We also have these senior. You have officer enlisted relationships where you have an officer and a senior enlisted pairing up. So almost the entire military career, I was experiencing the same concept minus the business component. So at the time that I read Rocket Fuel, I'd kind of gained some of that business experience, but there were still some. Some elements I was missing. But I read it, and. And it really resonated with me, and I could already see that there's. There's an opportunity here for me to do something that I could. I could be really good at. I just have to fill in the blanks. And frankly, you know, when I heard in the book and you talk about it is the four to one ratio of visionaries, integrators, I'm like, you know what? I'm pretty sure there's more of us out there, but maybe not all of us know how to do it yet. So. So I think there's a really rich pool in the. In the veteran community. But for me personally, it's. It's absolutely been essential I bring so much of what I gained well before I ever knew about EOS or Rocket Fuel. But just, you know, it's in. I hear. I've heard in many of your conversations, you know, people say before they even learn about this, it's kind of in their DNA. That's kind of how I feel from my veteran background.

Yeah, I would agree. I think that's a. That's a rich pool of potential integrators. So, Brenda, let's go back to the accountability chart for a sec. So Brian said it was a bowl of spaghetti. What was your experience of going through and working through all this stuff you got to do to get clear on the accountability chart?

Initially, I would say that it was kind of a confusion in my mind because we were coming from an organizational chart and from our best practice organization, and now we're calling it an accountability chart. And I was getting messages from best practice of you should lay it out like this. But then when I worked with Brian and Victoria, well, this is how a true EOS accountability chart would look like. And this is the why and once I really understood the why, it all started to make sense. And as we trickled it down throughout the organization, it started to eliminate a lot of problems because then we started to hear about end runs and all the different things that happened as a result of, first of all, not having an accountability chart, second of all, not living by it, and then teaching everybody within the organization where you're at on this chart and why and how you function as a result of it. And it started to bring order.

Love that, Brian. What was tricky about it, what was, what was challenging about working through their accountability chart from wherever the structure was.

Before that, there were a few things. One of them being it was really hard to put our finger on who the leadership team should be. And it's really. That's been probably one of the biggest challenges all along. Mike and Brenda are the owners, they're married. The company was founded by Mike and he ran it for decades. And really it's a more recent decision for Brenda to come into the visionary seat. And so there's definitely been learning on Mike's role and the relationships and the role distinctions between Mike and Brenda. As you can imagine, over time, as they're both working in the business, there's aspects of all sorts of different processes where a little bit of his started right here and then it comes over here and it goes back and then somebody else gets involved, but they don't get their thing done. So now we have to bring in. So it was really complicated. And so peeling that away and figuring out where Mike's best seat in the accountability chart is was something we had to work through. And we've done a really, really great job. And Mike is currently sitting in the operations lead seat and we have some plan in the owner's box seat. And we have a long term vision of where Mike goes, which is actually kind of growing. Something that gives him a chance to get back to his visionary roots, which is very training and development related. So there's probably a spinoff that allows Mike a future visionary seat again. So he's in an OP seat now.

So kind of start to finish. How long did it take to get clarity on the accountability chart structure?

A long time. And I'll tell you why. Because even though Mike nominated me to be the visionary, because when I asked for that new coach and we became a little bit stagnant, it was. That's where I kind of stepped in. I stepped into a different direction because I started to take the lead on. Look, we're going to get people that can Teach us how to do it. That's not going to be easy, but it's what we need to do. And the big loud thing that came through through our coach and through eos is nothing happens until the leaders change. If we don't grow, it's not going to happen. So I think it was, it was perfect for Mike to nominate me as visionary, but then what does he do with himself? Because now he's still, even though I'm sitting in the visionary, he's grasping at every vine there is in the organization to hold on. And so it took a lot of, I would say, mentorship by Brian to work with Mike. That was what was upending our accountability charge chart because Mike was jumping all over the place. He didn't know what to do with his visionary now. And so Brian and Victoria have been really good about letting him know. If you work yourself out of this role and get into training and developing, there's a whole aspect over here where you can be a visionary. But in the midst of that, I will give it to Mike. He's grown a lot and that was incredibly necessary for us to move past where we, where we were at, because you did have. And he will admit for him, even though he wasn't in the visionary role, he couldn't let go of the vine. He was struggling hard with that and that for. We went back to that first chapter a lot. And so, yeah, it was, it was a real flip flop. And I think that's what made the accountability chart kind of go on for a long time because he had to understand his role in it. And he did. But it was through lots and lots and lots and lots of Brian working with him and Victoria in our quarterlies.

Yeah, there's a lot of inertia around habits, the way it's always been done. Right. And so it sometimes takes a while to refocus that energy in a different way. So, Brian, let me ask you this. So you in the integrator role. Integrator does a lot of tough things, but in the integrator role, you now have one of the owners and the spouse of the visionary reporting directly to you in the, in that op seat. So you're, you're charged with holding them accountable. How's that?

There's times that it's easier than others, I'll bet, because especially being fractional, it even reduces my footprint a little more. I worked on building a good relationship with Mike and Brenda early on, and that's always helped. We were at a critical point, I'd say Five, six months ago. And I was really limited because it really. We needed Mike's buy in on certain actions to, to be able to move forward. And I live, I live in San Diego, this is Orange county. So it's not a far drive, hour and a half. But I, I said I'm going to come up and I'm going to spend the night. Let's. Mike, can you and I go just go have dinner, hang out for a little while and, and, and just connect? Well, you know, that was, the intent was to connect, but you know, to just get to know each other a little bit better and that actually I think he and I really both had a great time that night. I believe we did connect and I believe we were able to kind of, in a way, it was the same page. He is reporting through me on the accountability chart. He's still an owner, he's still actively involved in the business. That connection was the beginning of getting a little bit more alignment on stopping end runs and increasing accountability of the OPS team. And I will say, and I'll agree very much with Brenda on this, on where we are now. The other aspect of the accountability chart that was really confusing is if you look at it, really the leadership team is three people. It's Brenda and a couple of seats on the leadership team. It's Mike in a seat on the leadership team and it's me. That's not enough if I'm only going to be here one day a week to make stuff happen. So what we recently figured out is how all the key managers that run the rest of the business filter in. And most of that is through operations through Mike. And so now kind of outside traditional EOs, the key L10 every week is the operations L10. Brenda has a seat in that L10 aligned to her marketing role, which feeds into operations as well as we're bringing in somebody from an accounting seat to provide feedback. But the majority of the people sitting in the room are the operators. And I'm in there helping to facilitate and support Mike in his role in running a really strong operations team. And so I'm, I'm kind of a backstop to him to prop him up to help him be successful in running that group.

So another dynamic that I'm picking up on here is, is a lot of keeping your hat straight. Right. Because you know, it sounds like you're all sitting in multiple seats, whether it's the owner seat or the integrator seat or the OPS leader seat or the marketing seat or. Right, whatever. And so you've got these different lines of accountability that are flowing. And so it's the same people communicating all over the place, but you're communicating in different ways from those different perspectives. So I'm sure that's been kind of a tricky thing too. So just for context for our listeners, size of the company in terms of employees is what we have.

50.

50. Okay. And you said that EOS brings you peace. So thinking about that, from what the operating system is doing for you, I want to hear what has the VI duo done for you? So how would you describe the change in your world pre having an integrator and to where you're able to be now?

Pre having an integrator? I didn't feel like I had the adequate tools. I honestly knew I was missing something, but I didn't know what I was missing. And so you're in this best practice organization and they have lots of tools for you, but they're nothing like the tools EOS brings. And so having, having a vision for our future, knowing where we're going, knowing how to get there, is something that just now makes my mind explode. I can remember when I. When that first, when that first recruiter turned me down, he said, brenda, you don't even have a blueprint to hand it to an integrator. What are they going to do with you? And so now there's definitely. That word works well in my brain. Now there's a blueprint. And now I know where I'm at, I know where I'm going and I know how to get there. And that's why I have peace. And I'm acutely aware of what I don't have. Because when I watch Brian's brain work with how he can systemize, how he can create processes, how he can execute it all, when he introduces things like racy to us, when he introduces all these different concepts that help clarify everybody's role and what they're supposed to do within the organization? It's just now I can envision it twice the size, three times the size, four times the size. I can envision it now. And now I have the understanding to know at every level it's going to look different and you're going to keep growing. But this particular system can contain all of that and has a plan for all of that.

Love that. So, Brian, if you were going to narrow it down to kind of one change you've seen in Brenda from the beginning of your engagement to now as a leader or just as a person, what is it?

I hate to Use peace, because that's hers. But I do think she's very much trusting of what we're doing and what the future looks like. Initially, I think her thought was, you know what? I'm being recommended to do this. And so, so, sure, I'm good. Let's give it a shot. I think now, if you put it in a gwc, I think that Brenda's gets. It is like, it's way, way, way up at the top. She's, she, she gets what all this is doing and the impact. And because of that, I think it impacts how, how she receives everything that's happening and how she views the future. So I, again, I'm not trying to just echo what she's saying, but I do see that.

Very cool. So if our listeners want to reach out to learn more about Barker and Sons or either one of you, what's the best way for them to do that?

They can reach out to me on my email. I would love for anyone to do this journey.

Okay, that's cool. Thanks for that, Brian.

By email. Brianningwithwarriors.com and I'm also part of the Rocket Fuel University Integrator Mastery Form. So there's a directory on that website. You can find me on that directory as well. So you can email me directly or you can reach out to me through that directory or on LinkedIn. Love to connect on LinkedIn.

Yeah, you can connect on LinkedIn. Yeah. And mine is brendaarkerandsunsplumbing.com and then that's.

Probably the website, right? Barkerandsunsplumbing.com yes. Okay, very cool. Well, first, my utmost gratitude to both of you for taking some time to visit with us today.

You.

And we're trying to help people here. Right. And we're trying to help them maybe avoid some of the mistakes that we've all made. And if we don't all have to make every single mistake ourselves, maybe we can be lucky enough to learn from someone else's and get there a little bit faster with a little bit less pain. That's a big win for everybody. So I know you've helped our listeners today. And to our listeners, thanks for listening. If you are enjoying this program and you're getting something helpful out of it, please tell somebody, leave us a review that just helps more people find out about us and helps us help more people, Everybody. What a great conversation with Brenda and Brian. So now let's go to the Rocket Fuel Toolbox and a couple things that jumped out for me. One was the accountability chart, right they talked about the bowl of spaghetti and, you know, the accountability chart. It took them a year to work through it. A lot of issues going on there. They talked about the reasons why. But as a tool, it's so important to get clear on your structure and get alignment around that structure and commitment, really, to moving in that direction amongst the leadership team. And once you have that, everything else kind of starts to line up. All the roles become clear, people know what's expected of them. We talk about crystal clear expectations around the roles in each seat on the accountability chart. So we don't step on each other or have these big gaps that are uncovered. So that was a really big deal for them. But another part of it was because of Mike's role, which they talked about. Owner's box had run the company for a long time now, moving into that OP seat. So the challenges of letting go and the inertia of just those habits of doing things the way they've always been done, of course, would lead to end runs. Easy for Mike to go around the integrator and go to his spouse that's now sitting in the visionary seat and really go not just there, but a lot of other different directions. And I would suspect there's some of that coming the other direction from the visionary to the ops leader. So working through that, figuring out how to eliminate those end runs and really drive people back to the integrator. And it sounds like they did a good job of that. And actually, Brenda talked about the critical nature of Brian's role in mentoring Mike in terms of why, why are we doing it this way? What are we really trying to accomplish here? And then him over time, really embracing that and grow. They talked about growing into the role. So love the use of the accountability chart there, the recognition of end runs and actively going to change that behavior. We talked a little bit about the fractional integrator term. Again, this one, I describe what it is. We want an integrator that's fully engaged in all of the things it means to be an integrator. So Brenda repeatedly said it's not just about the level 10. It's not just about the level 10. That's just the tip of the iceberg. It's about being the leader in terms of accountability, modeling what it looks like to have great LMA in the organization, creating alignment amongst that leadership team and keeping everybody moving forward, you know, setting the tempo, beating the drum, all of those things. It sounds like even though Brian's there only one day a week, she went on and on about how effective he is at being able to create those kinds of things and really engage in the organization in that type of a role of what it really means to be an integrator.

Right.

So don't get distracted by this fractional term. All it means is part time. And so it's less than full time, which can be true even if you're a full time employee, but you're just sitting in multiple seats. So we're working towards a situation in most companies where you can be full time and you can be fully engaged in that role of what it means to be an integrator. So that's what we're striving for. We're not looking for somebody who just is there part time and just facilitates your level tens. That's not being an integrator. And then the last thing you heard mentioned right there at the end was Brian's a member of the Integrator Mastery Forum. And it's just a reflection of his commitment to be truly great and master his craft and be the best integrator he can possibly be. And so hopefully you saw some of that coming across in the interview. And so a couple of things here, just a reminder for folks to go to rocketfielduniversity.com, take the assessment. It's going to help you get clear on where you stand in this whole visionary integrator world and that structure, if it can be helpful for you and find out about other tools that we have there. You can learn a lot just by taking advantage of the free resources we have and then join our community of visionaries and integrators and keep learning from each other, asking questions, getting them answered, sharing experiences. That's how we all go farther, faster. So that's it for this episode. Appreciate you being here and listening with us. And until next time, go rock it. Thanks so much for joining me today. I really hope you were inspired by our guests. If you're interested to discover how your current visionary integrator relationship compares to the relationship you'd like to, I invite you to go visit rocketfueluniversity.com and take our free crystallizer assessment. You'll get both your visionary and integrator indicator scores and that's going to help you figure out your next step. The best support for integrators is other integrators. That's why we created the Integrator Mastery Forum, the number one community and training program for those in the number two seat. Join this peer group to share experiences, attend collaborative calls, Access Mastery level resources and showcase your credentials on the IMF directory. Visit rocketfueluniversity.com to learn more.