163: Finding ease and belonging, ft. Katie Mantwa George

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Hello everyone and welcome back to another exciting episode of Canny Crystals, the podcast. I hope that you're all well. My name is Mart Tweedy, I'm your host, and this week I'm absolutely thrilled to be joined by one of my favorite people that I've had the pleasure of meeting this year. So today's guest is someone who embodies the art of mindfulness and has a truly inspiring approach to meditation and living in the moment. She is a powerful advocate for self-awareness, inner peace, and finding joy in the present moment. And honestly, I cannot wait for you to hear her insights. So whether you're a seasoned meditator, someone who struggles to sit still, or maybe you're just curious about how mindfulness can transform your daily life, this episode is for you. So please welcome to the show the incredible Katie Mantua George. Katie, how are you?

I'm good. It's so good to be here, Mart. Honestly, it's so funny that we met quite recently, but I feel like I know you quite well.

I know, it's just so nice. Like, we've just come on and we've just been chatting about, you know, my book and plants and things like that, just random crap. But it's nice. It just feels like I'm catching up with a friend. Um, so for all you listeners, if you cast your mind back to, I think it was the 13th of July 2024, I was doing my very first talk at Happy Place Festival. We'd been at Chiswick House and Gardens from around 7:30 in the morning. We were first on the stage at 9 AM, and then we had stuck around until mid to late afternoon. We were absolutely exhausted, so we popped into this little chilled area in the woods which was for all the contributors, and we just crashed in a heap on these little couches And just as we were there all relaxed, I looked up and I saw this elegant lady walking over. And I just— I looked at Fran, Fran looked at me, and we kind of looked at each other as if to say, oh no, someone's coming, please leave us alone, we just want to chill out and go to sleep. And anyway, that elegant lady was you. And from the minute you started talking, you totally captivated us with what you were saying. And from right there in that moment, I said to Fran, I need her to do a meditation workshop at Manifest in Newcastle next year. And here we are. You're on the podcast. History is being made.

I know, it's so crazy. I even remember— I remember that moment super well because I almost wasn't going to go to that relaxation area, actually. Yeah, because I think my session had finished, so I could have just gone home. And so I thought, you know what, I'm just going to go there and I'm going to sit down for a second. And I saw you there and I just thought, oh, who's this? You know, when you're just intrigued. And I sat down. Sometimes when you sit with people you don't know, it can be a bit awkward, can't it?

Yeah.

And you just think, oh no, what am I doing here? How do I get out of this situation?

But it just felt so natural talking to you.

Yeah, yeah, it felt so natural. And I had no idea, you know, everything you do and, you know, what you stand for, but I could just tell from your energy or something, um, that actually I wanted to stick around. I thought, gosh, I'm so glad I sat down. I'm so glad I walked around the corner and went to that little kind of forest haven. And yeah, ever since then I've been fascinated by what you're doing and can't wait to come to Manifest. Super excited.

I'm so excited to have you there. Honestly, I've had so many people saying, we need a meditation workshop. And I was like, I have the perfect lady for this. So Katie, take me right back then. Were you as chilled as you are right now growing up? Because I want to know what your personal journey into meditation and mindfulness was. Like, what led you to this practice?

Yeah, do you know what? I don't think a lot of people would necessarily describe me as a chilled child at all. So my mum would always say that my sister was super chilled and I was always the cheeky little troublemaker. And I think that's probably right. You know, I would question everything about the world. I would question anything that any grown-up or any little person told me. I would always say, "But why is that?" or 'Are you sure?' or 'Who told you that?' You know, so I would always kind of push the buttons without realizing I was doing it, even with my poor teachers at school. So I think I was labeled a little bit of a cheeky troublemaker. But actually, what I was trying to do was to understand the world and to understand my place in it and why things work the way they do. My curiosity was always never to just take everything for what you call it, just for what people say to me. I wanted to explore everything. So, so yeah, I was the cheeky little Katie, but I did have this really strong awareness when I was younger that I always needed time alone. I think because I was so overstimulated, because I, because whatever I do, I put my whole heart and soul into it. So I'm super present. I'm really listening. I'm really engaging. I'm asking all the questions. So it comes to the point where I realize, oh my gosh, that's been quite a lot. Let me hide away. So from a very early age, when I remember, probably around 9 or 10, I would actually say to my family, I'm just going to go to the bedroom and I'm going to close the door, and I just need to sit there for a while and just be in silence. And that's what I would do. And I didn't know what it was. I don't think my family even knew what it was really. They just respected it. And I would sit in the room and I would just sit there. I would do nothing. And I would just sit there and be quiet. And I just felt so much better. And then I'd be able to come out into the house and continue conversations. But really what I was doing was meditating now that I think about it.

I love that. And I think when we first spoke as well, you said that you focus a lot of your work on cultivating ease and belonging, and that really resonated with me. So what do those two words specifically mean to you?

Yeah, so do you know what, ease for me is feeling that you could walk into any space, any room, travel to any country, speak to any new person, and just feel completely yourself, and to feel authentic around them regardless of who they are, what they might say to you, how they might perceive you, what their judgments might be. That you will just feel comfortable. And, and I wouldn't normally use the word confident, but that's really what it is. It's like a quiet confidence in being in any space, right? So that's what ease really means to me, and it links perfectly with belonging, because obviously if you feel like you belong in yourself, then you are going to be your most authentic self, and you are going to feel at ease because you're so comfortable with who you are. I think so many of us face just innumerous challenges around the perspectives of others and that, you know, how we should behave and who we should be and how we should look and who we should love and all these different things that you find that if you listen to too much of that, you don't walk around and navigate the world with ease and belonging because there's too much noise. So that's the shortest version I can think of, of what ease and belonging mean to me.

No, I really resonate with that, and I think it's totally right with like what you were saying there about being your authentic self and not following in another's path. Or, you know, like when we go on Instagram, it's just a highlight reel of everyone's lives, isn't it? It's not like their true authentic selves. So nobody, nobody ever like posts a little video of themselves having a cry in a corner or something like that. Yeah, I totally get that. It really, really resonated with me when you told me about that. I know that you've, um, also worked with the Dalai Lama and the Deepak Chopra certification to shape your approach to teaching meditation. So how did that kind of shape the way that you teach it?

Yeah, I mean, two phenomenal human beings. Um, you know, I would say that with the Dalai Lama, at the time that I did the training with him was about 7, 8 years ago, before I had any idea that I would end up where I am now. So I used to work in the corporate world, um, and I went with my sister. We had this opportunity, we were invited to go for 3 days to Mumbai and to learn with the Dalai Lama and some students. And honestly, there are so many things I learned from that, but the key one really that I remember really well, that's probably going to be quite funny, is that he's really funny. So, you know, I always struggled with this, I think, when I was growing up and also in the work I did in the corporate space, was that I'm quite lighthearted and I find a lot of things really funny. So, I tend to laugh at moments that other people might not necessarily think are laughing moments.

I make Exactly the same.

I think you are actually. Yeah. And because there's so much joy to be had in all these moments, and sometimes we hold ourselves back from laughing or being silly because we are worried about how people might perceive our expertise. And I remember being in the workplace and thinking, you know, being this kind of jolly, silly soul, and some people actually saying to me, don't be so nice, don't be so jovial. You've gotta be serious. We're in a serious environment. And I was thinking, Actually, do you know what? It's the joy, the happiness, and seeing the humor in things that actually does help you to be productive and to find clarity and to function really well because you're relaxed and you're your authentic self. So, I remember thinking he would just laugh and he wasn't trying to pretend to be super serious because he was teaching us something or because he's so well known. And I thought, oh wow, so I can actually just be this joyful soul and people will still take me seriously and they will still listen to me. So that would be, my kind of key learning from those 3 days with the Dalai Lama. And in terms of Deepak Chopra, I mean, where do I start? The training and the certification I did was a very long 150-hour meditation training program. Oh, wow.

Yes.

Yeah. And the key thing from that is it has probably what's directed me towards ease and belonging because the key question that he kind of encourages us to ask ourselves is, who am I? And once you know who you are, at least if you ask the question, even if you don't quite figure it out, as long as you ask the question, it will solve itself. But knowing who you are is the key to so much of that sense of ease and belonging. Understanding yourself, going inwards to find who that being is, allows you to then navigate the world in a productive, authentic self and to be able to kind of share that with everybody else. In a way that serves you well. So that, that big question of who am I is something I use in meditation guidance a lot.

I love that. And it's something that I'm struggling with right now, actually, at the moment, because I'm struggling with a sense of self and self-awareness because I had a child, obviously, back in January, and I just feel like my days and my nights just all merge into one, and I just feel like the only identity I have at the moment is a dad because that's the only thing I'm doing constantly. And obviously I go to the gym and, you know, do food shopping and things like that and go to, you know, little playgroups and stuff. But I've kind of lost that sense of self, of like having some fun and enjoying things. And, you know, I booked in for a massage earlier this week just so I could go out and give myself some self-love. I also had a CT scan on Monday to, you know, get my stomach seen to, which I kind of incorporated that into self-love as well. And I thought, well, you know, health is wealth, that kind of thing. So yeah, I'm, I'm really resonating with this chat, honestly. I love stuff like this. I love when, you know, you're talking about how just bringing that authentic joy and how it can really shape who you are, and it's okay to be joyous as well. I love that. Um, can we talk about mindfulness as well? Because You know, when I first came across mindfulness, it was probably— oh, I'm gonna say 12, 13 years ago. I was working in the NHS at the time, and I walked into my boss who was sat there in a chair with her head down on the table and the lights all dimmed. And I thought, oh my God, she's asleep. That was the first thing. And then when I actually like roused her, she said, oh no, I'm just doing mindfulness. And I was like, what's this? And she said, the NHS actually fund the staff to go through this mindfulness training. So I actually went through it myself. The first day we were given a raisin, and this raisin, we had to put it in our mouth, you know, swish it around, feel the texture on our tongue, close our eyes if we could, and, you know, just feel all the textures, the sensations. And I remember us all looking around the room at each other and all bursting out laughing, and there was like raisins flying everywhere because no— nobody could keep a straight face. And we're like, what is going on? So how do you define mindfulness in your own words, and how does that differ from meditation?

Yeah, it's a good question, Ash, because there's a lot of confusion around it. Um, and actually to find, you know, I'm never the one to say that I have the key answer to, to this question, but I definitely have some opinions around it and I've, and I've learned a lot about it. Um, but really, so mind meditation is a form of mindfulness. So there are many different ways that you can find mindfulness. I suppose the easiest way to describe mindfulness is you making some kind of choice to move your awareness from where you don't want it to be to where you want it to be. And that allows you to focus on the present moment and on the task at hand, or on your well-being, or your self-awareness, or whatever it is you might want to be trying to bring your awareness to. The person in front of you, for example, the raisin, whatever it is. So, different forms of mindfulness can support people to get there. So, Meditation is one. You sit down and you either are guided or you have a mantra or you have, you know, affirmations and things that will help you to bring your awareness to the person who's guiding you, the person's voice, right? And the whole idea with the raisin is that when you are eating the raisin, it is melting and you're feeling the flavor. It's very hard to think about anything else. So you stop thinking about your stressful long to-do list. You stop thinking about what you're gonna cook for dinner. You stop thinking about, is my little baby okay at nursery? You know, all these things will disappear because you're focusing on that raisin. So there are so many— my husband's actually a great example of this. He doesn't meditate, it's not his thing to find mindfulness, but he loves to go for a jog or he loves to exercise. So when he's exercising, he's in that moment and he's, you know, running and one foot in front of the other, or he's got his music that's distracting him from the long to-do list. Things like journaling are a form of mindfulness because when you're using your hand, and there's a connection to your brain in terms of the thought process of being focused on the piece of paper and the pen, um, is a form of mindfulness. So I hope that helps describe the difference. Meditation is a form of mindfulness, and it's not for everybody, but it's super effective. But maybe for some people, journaling or exercise is more effective for a mindfulness practice.

Yeah, I think that'll really clarify things for people, because people will probably be already doing stuff that could be incorporated as mindfulness but not be aware of it. Now, something that I was reading recently as well was that us in the UK apparently are twice as likely to overeat, and that tends to be because we're not focused on the food, so we're not mindfully eating. So we'll be staring at a TV or watching a film or on our phones or something like that, and we miss those signals from the brain to say that, you know, we're full, and that tends to be why we overeat. Have you had any experience with that?

Yeah, it's a, it's a huge thing. I mean, we, we Well, I mean, we've seen from looking at, you know, when you look at Japan and Japanese people and how they eat their food, you know, chewing really slowly, being super focused, never having the TV on, having gentle conversation, you know, how good that is for your body. And when you look at Ayurveda as well, actually, when you eat mindfully, so you obviously wouldn't have all the distractions. So I have heard, and I've been looking out for this myself, actually, funnily enough, is that when you are eating and you're mindful of it, your body actually does like a tiny little kind of burp. I know it sounds a little bit like, okay, but it actually tries to tell you. It's like a bit of air movement in your body that tries to say you're full now, stop. And it's so gentle and so quiet. You know, you can only just feel it. I have felt it a few times recently trying to actually focus, but it's telling you stop eating. But we don't hear it and we don't notice it because we're watching the TV or we're talking, or for example, I'd always try to say to my husband, okay, let's not have the TV on when we're eating. And we're doing that, you know, we're getting much better at that. But then sometimes we have so much to catch up on because we haven't seen each other throughout the day. So we're actually talking a lot.

Yeah.

And of course you like bite your tongue and, you know, you overeat and all these things. It's absolutely true. As a child growing up, so my mum was super strict. I mean, there's a whole story around that. But she really banned us from different forms of television. But now that I'm grown up, I actually really appreciate that because I did so many things as a child that we would class as mindfulness activities. So I used to write poems, I used to draw pictures, I used to make cards that I would sell in my mom's shop, and quite a few instead of watching TV. So I'd come school and I'd sit there and I'd get all my arts and crafts out and I would make 50 little greeting cards. And I loved that. And I, and I think to myself now, gosh, you know what? Thank goodness she stopped me from watching so much TV because I was practicing mindfulness every single day of my life, you know, through all this creativity. And I saw that at the time as her being quite strict. Why is she depriving me of, you know, Biker Grove or whatever, you know? Or like Neighbours. I never watched Neighbours, EastEnders, um, Hollyoaks, any of that, um, which is very unusual. But it's— I was doing mindfulness activities, and I'm so grateful for that now.

I love that as well, because, you know, Fran, Francesca Amber, she obviously does a lot of things like that with her girls as well. So whenever you go around there, they've always got like arts and crafts out on the table. They're never ever watching TV. They've never really got the iPads in the hands or anything like that. And I think She even restricts iPad usage to only when, you know, when they go to a restaurant or something and they need that focus from like causing mayhem or anything like that. Um, but yeah, they'll sit there quite happily like making bracelets or making little paper chains, making cards. They're all very good at the arts and crafts, so it's something that I'm going to incorporate with my little boy as well because I don't want him to be just focused on the TV and just be like a mindless zombie almost, you know what I mean?

Yeah, and then before you know it, 3, 4, 5 hours have disappeared.

Yeah, and you've got nothing to show for it.

Yeah, nothing to show for it. And it's— yeah, and I mean, some TV is like nice and distracting, you know, you know. Um, yeah, there's some TV that's fine. Obviously when you switch off and it's quite good to just be like, oh, I don't want to think about anything. Um, but ultimately, gosh, imagine how many months or years of our life we spend either on Instagram or on our phones.

So what would you say is the most significant benefit of practicing meditation regularly? What do you see out of it the most?

So I would say, wow, I mean, such a beautiful long list. But if I was to bring it down to, you know, one big thing that I've found to be wonderful, and different people will tell me different things, of course, but for me, it's bringing awareness to the things that I need to understand about myself, but also about the world. Um, I find that we're not very good because of all the distractions of understanding even the smallest things, like whether we're feeling ill, you know, whether we're actually stressed. So I speak to lots of people, I help lots of people who, who come to me because they just want to have some fun doing some meditation, but it turns out that they're probably in a very late stage of burnout and they just didn't notice. And the problem is that when you don't notice and you're not aware of what's happening to you, you can't do anything about it. So, if you, you just think your life is busy and you're feeling active and it's great and it's fun, that you're not able to differentiate that between having fun and being busy and socializing and the fact that you're actually extremely burnt out and your body's about to crash. But when you meditate and you spend those moments in silence, your body will tell you. It will say, ooh, your shoulders are aching, ooh, your back is in pain, or you'll fall asleep because you can't, you can't stay awake, you know, those kind of, um, pointers and reminders.

I was just going to say that because my shoulders have been aching the last couple of weeks and I've been blaming the gym. And I went to a physio yesterday and they said to me, you've got loads of knots. And he says, are you stressed or burnt out or anything? And I was like, yeah. I was like, I've just got loads on my plate right now. And he says, I think you just need to take some time out and have a massage and do all these different things. And I was like, yeah, you're totally right.

Yeah, I think it is.

It's just It's just burnout, isn't it? It's just like we throw ourselves into all of these different things and we have a thousand plates spinning at the same time, but we need to just take that time for ourselves. And it is something that I'm getting better at, but it was something that I did religiously maybe a year ago, and then life just gets in the way, doesn't it? Does it?

Does it? You've got a little boy now as well, and you've got, you've got so much more. There's also reality around the fact that you have got more going on Yeah, you know, and that things will change and your, your pattern of self-care will change at any point in your life for anybody. But there's a lot happening in your life, so you need to refocus and realign and restructure what self-care looks like. So I think that's okay. But I think, you know, also interestingly, something you said earlier when I was talking about, you know, who am I, and this awareness of who you are is even more important when you have people who are depending on you. Yeah. Little people who, you know, are relying on their survival because of you, right? And you then losing yourself. And I do this meditation, I did it actually on the weekend. So I had a half-day retreat on the weekend. I do them every couple of months in Mayfair. And last weekend was about finding home within yourself. And I did a practice that was about stripping away your labels. And the label we were stripping away was your name on this occasion. So stripping away your name because that holds so much in terms of expectation, who gave it to you. You don't even choose it, it's just given to you, but it means so much to the world, but it isn't who you are. And when you do that type of meditation practice or self-inquiry is kind of technically what it's called, you start to then realize all the other labels you have, like father, I don't know, sister, manager, whatever it might be. And all these labels are heavy on you.

Yeah.

But when you bring your awareness to them, you will see them more as a gift. And you'll be able to hold them more gently and with more ease by recognizing the beauty of those labels. So, if you don't bring your awareness to them, they sit on you like a heavy weight of a big to-do list, right? And so, you don't have that chance to feel grateful for them necessarily. And some of them we do need to strip away. Like some of them do need to be gone.

That's a great analogy though. And I've never even thought of it like that. So, it's just about stripping those labels and realizing that they are a gift. Because most of them aren't given to us, like, like you were saying about the name and things like that. So I was thinking more about, you know, if someone was brand new to meditation, where would you recommend they begin? Would you recommend kind of a guided route, or would you recommend them just getting, you know, like focusing on the breath, that kind of thing, and working from there? What's the best way to get started with meditation?

Yeah, do you know what I would say? The first thing to do would be to— so if, let's just say we live in a world where you didn't have a phone, you didn't have anything, Um, because I always want people to be able to look after themselves, you know, without me actually. Yeah, you know, without any guidance would be ideal. You know, that's the whole point actually of Deepak Chopra's training is that you end up guiding yourself and you find that in yourself versus having to listen to a guide. Um, but so I would say that the easiest thing to do and the simplest thing to do is to bring your awareness to your breath. So maybe even just first thing in the morning when you wake up, instead of grabbing your phone— I hear this so many times but just sit up or even just lie, stay lying down and just take 2 or 3 deep breaths in, preferably through your nose and out through your mouth. And then you'll just feel this sense of calm and ease that will kind of help you to sail into your day a little bit more smoothly. So that's just the starting point. If that's all you can do, that's all you can do. And that will make a difference. And so that would be the main starting point for me. And then we can graduate onto some guided meditation after that.

I love when you talk about breathing as well, because I'm reading the book at the moment. I don't know if you've read it before, it's called The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks.

No, I haven't.

Oh, it's a really good book, and in it he mentions about how breathing really helps to change emotions. And he said you can be in, um, the emotion of fear, for example, but to get to the excitement all you need to do is breathe. Because when you're fearful, you tend to hold your breath and you, you're not breathing as heavy, or you're quite short and sharp. But when you breathe like heavily and long and slow, you get to that stage of excitement. Do you know what I mean? So it's, it's really interesting actually, because it's all about kind of like just connecting with yourself.

And it's, and it's even just a reminder that you're, that you're a living being.

Yeah, of course.

A miracle.

Yeah, we are.

The fact that the air comes in and out of your body. And, you know, even just when you take those breaths, that you remind yourself that this oxygen is going through every cell in your body and it's feeding every cell in your body, it's healing your body, it's creating, you know, the ability to grow your hair and to be able to process your food and to be able to move your body. It's, it's, it's magic when you think of it. So I think even just that, the, the, obviously the biological breathing is important.

Yeah.

Um, but the awareness of the fact that we do it and that we get to do it also is a form of kind of mindfulness, of— it's awe. It's awe and wonder, right? I love it.

Now, Katie, I know you're really big on empathy and self-compassion as well, aren't you? So what are some practical ways that, you know, the listeners can develop some self-compassion in their daily lives?

Yeah, I mean, Self-compassion. Yeah, I'm really big on it. I think we're so hard on ourselves. I mean, the easiest way to even think about self-compassion is when you're having a difficult situation, or say, for example, you make a mistake, you know, even a conversation with somebody or an error at work, you know, we're always the first to beat ourselves up about that. And you'd say, you know, why didn't I see that coming? Or say like a relationship, we can put it on a relationship and you're like, oh my gosh, I knew this was going to happen. I should have seen the signs. This person is evil and horrible and whatever else. How didn't I see this? And you get really upset with yourself. But self-compassion for me is just in that moment, just stopping. So bringing awareness to yourself and the conversation you're having with yourself and think, would I say this to my best friend? You know, if your best friend was going through an awful breakup, would you say to them, oh, you should have saw, you should have saw that coming, we all saw it happening, oh, you know, why didn't you, why didn't you understand the behavior of this person? You know, all these kind of things. You just wouldn't say it to your best friend. Yeah. So don't say it to yourself. You know, that is self-compassion. If that was like the one key thing, stop and think, I wouldn't say this to someone I love.

I was going to say as well, because I think I need to have a bit of self-compassion for myself, because, you know, when I'm trying to meditate, I find it really hard to quiet my mind, and then I'll be like, oh my God, I can't do this. Oh my God, this has taken forever to get into that state. So what advice would you give to someone who, like me, where they find their minds constantly wandering?

Yeah, I mean, it's such a— it's a very common thing. And to be honest, I remember when I was kind of shifting my career and thinking about what to do with my life and trying to, well, finding myself and trying to understand, you know, I always wanted to help people. That's why I studied psychology. And, um, and then, so when I was going through this shift of moving from corporate to, um, kind of the, the, the world that I work in now, um, I was really bringing awareness to what I cared about. And I was with, I was talking to a coach and I said to her, but she said to me, I'm gonna set you a challenge. If you can meditate than I believe anybody can, because my mind is all over the place, Mart. I mean, I am full of ideas. I've run so many little businesses. When I have an idea, I'm like, let's launch it, you know.

What star sign are you, by the way? Because I feel like we're so alike. You're Aries as well. That's why I knew this. Do you know what it is? When you were saying this, I was like, she's describing me, honestly. Yeah, we're Aries. Yeah, all over that.

Yeah, all all over it. And I'm like, so my mind is super busy, Mart. I mean, and so that's why she kind of said it to me, I think, was that she was trying to, she knew that by saying it to me, I would do it.

Yeah.

And that I would go, okay, I'll show you that I can meditate and I can, I'm gonna do it really well. And then that's where my meditation journey started in earnest. And I ended up getting the certification and I actually saw her, um, a few months ago when I was back in South Africa, cuz she, I was in South Africa at the time. And we were laughing so much because she said, I cannot believe it. She said, I have faith that everybody can meditate now that you are not only meditating, you're now teaching it. Yeah, taking it to the next level. So the truth in the matter is that I actually think that people who have busy minds like ours are the people who need to meditate because we don't allow ourselves the time to listen to ourselves. So it's actually super important that we do. There's also the element of it might not be for you. So I also wanna open your mind to that, that don't push yourself to do something that is causing you strain, maybe. Yeah. But for people like us, that's why the meditation that I use on a daily basis is really good for me because Deepak Chopra's training is for, he gives you, well, you give as a teacher, you give your student a Sanskrit mantra that is based on the vibrations of the universe at the date, time, and place of your birth.

Oh, wow.

So it's absolutely beautiful. And the real practice is that you repeat this mantra in your mind over and over again. So every time your mind strays, and it will, and it does for me every time I meditate, I bring my attention back to the mantra and I just repeat it and repeat it and repeat it. And it really helps me to stay in the moment.

Nice.

I find for me personally that even listening to somebody else's voice can be quite distracting because I start associating the words with things I need to do. Or their accent annoys me. All these, you know, my mind is busy that way, but the mantra supports me to really stay in control of my thoughts and to understand that your thoughts are always there. Yeah. Always, always there. It's just about letting them float away when you don't need them and bringing your awareness to either an affirmation or a mantra or something like that.

Yeah.

I was going to say as well, because when you mentioned there about like doing a guided meditation in someone else's voice, I had to record all my meditations that I wanted to do for myself in my own voice because I often kind of like just wander off and I'm thinking, I wonder if this woman's got blonde hair, or do you know what I mean? I wonder if she was wearing red while she was recording this, just totally irrelevant things. And I just found that my mind was just wandering off and then before I know it I'm thinking, what am I having for tea? Where am I going this weekend? What am I going to buy my partner for Christmas? Do you know what I mean? And your head just explodes and then I'm like No, no. So having this little anchor of this mantra, I'm going to try that. I'm going to make myself a little mantra. Um, probably not a Sanskrit one like you, because I haven't got money for Deepak Chopra at the moment. Sorry, Deepak.

I will—

we can, we can chat. Oh, I can help you with the mantra.

So, you know, we're both busy, Katie. So how do you integrate, you know, meditation, mindfulness into your daily routine? Like, especially if some people just say, you know, I haven't got the time to meditate. What can you say to them?

Yeah, I mean, I'm quite lucky in the sense that I— so I don't have kids. I'm not saying I'm lucky that I don't have kids, but you know, but actually I have fewer distractions. The reality is that I have fewer distractions. So I literally get out of bed and I'll stand up and, you know, get a cup of tea, not caffeinated, in the morning to meditate because the caffeine will drive your mind even more crazy, actually.

Yeah.

So, you know, I'll have a little bit of movement. I sit down, I'll meditate, and I'll do, say, 10 to 20 minutes of meditation. Now, I think that is a luxury. I'm very lucky and blessed to be able to do that. And obviously, because I'm in the wellness industry and I guide and teach meditation, I also meditate when I'm guiding and teaching. So I have quite a lot of meditation practice in, in my average day. So yeah, you know, very few people can compare their scenario to me, but I actually always think about it in the sense of my sister because, so my sister is a single mom of twins and she finds time to meditate. So I feel like she needs to answer this question. She has the most hectic life, you know, she's working, she has twinies, you know, they're only 5 years old now. So it's been this journey and she's been a single parent since they were 18 months. And she, I put her through my Sanskrit mantra course, and she has her mantra, and she uses her mantra to practice. And so I would say that for somebody like her, somebody who's super busy, it's okay if you don't do it every morning or every afternoon at a certain time. You can still get benefits from it. So she will be, I don't know, like in a car park, she'll park up before a meeting, and she'll just repeat her mantra in her mind for a couple of minutes before she goes into the meeting or before she carries on with her day. Um, or she'll take a few deep breaths when, you know, both of her kids want her attention, and she's just like You know, let's take a few deep breaths. She'll say to them, let's take a few deep breaths. They'll do it together. So I think for someone who's super busy, just find the 1 or 2 minutes in your day where you can either repeat, like you said, you might create a little affirmation for yourself or a mantra. You know, I am strong. I am brave. You know, I feel at ease. Even if you don't in that moment, just say, I feel at ease. I feel at ease. I feel at ease. And you say it in your mind. Don't worry about having to chant it out to the world, um, you will, you will feel that ease. Um, so you don't have to do tradition. And when you go on the apps, it's very rare you find anything less than 10 minutes, right? That's quite hard to find a meditation less than 10 minutes. So when you don't have 10 minutes, you're like, okay, there's nothing for me here. Yeah, just repeat the affirmation, repeat the mantra, or take those deep breaths. And that is mindfulness in itself.

Do you believe that there's a spiritual component to mindfulness, or do you think it can just be used you know, purely as a mental exercise?

I, both. I would say that it will be different for different people. Um, there are so many people who will go to use mindfulness for very strategic, um, logical reasons. So I work with quite a few people in the corporate space who will only meditate with me because they've read all the research and they've looked at the data Yeah, and they're expecting a very specific result to come out of their meditation practice, which does actually normally happen, but that's what's brought them to the meditation practice. What I see with even people like that is that they are probably not aware of it, but there is a spiritual element to it. Um, and I will never say it to them necessarily because they— it will stop them from practicing. Um, they find it too woo-woo and they don't want to accept that that is probably what's what's going on. But for me, the spiritual aspect of it is, is really, I don't think very woo-hoo. It's just that we are, we have forgotten how to connect with our energy and to connect with nature or to see ourselves as connected to every person around us. I genuinely feel that the more we meditate, And when we meditate and on the days we meditate, we see people around us as part of us. And I think that is one of the biggest spiritual elements of the practice is that because you are your authentic self, because you are feeling calm, your intuition, it gets heightened and you have these kind of spidey senses to be able to recognize when somebody is sad or when they might need support. Or to pick up on people's joy and feed off their joy. And that can be seen as spirituality, but what it really is, is you tapping into the fact that everybody around you is a human being, is a miracle, and exists in connection with you. So that is where I see the spirituality. Like, I've always had that connection to people since I was a kid in terms of being curious and aware. Yeah, but now that I'm practicing meditation more, I feel even more deeply intuitive and connected to anybody who comes my way.

It's like almost like, like supercharging your empathy power, isn't it? And like just connecting with other people. It's very interesting. How do you think mindfulness and meditation can, you know, support emotional healing and personal growth then?

Well, you know, it's like a, you know, I think that, you know, people feel that, that our emotions are uncontrollable. But the more you practice mindfulness, or different forms of mindfulness, and, you know, obviously in my case meditation, like you do practice other forms of mindfulness as well, is that when the inevitable happens, which is your emotions start to arise, whether it's, you know, overexcitement, or, you know, whether it's deep sadness, or feeling helpless, or, you know, whatever it might be, is that you spot it more quickly when you have this kind of calmer way of being and when your awareness is more heightened is that you'll be able to detect that, okay, I am being irrationally angry right now. The scenario doesn't match the level of anger. Why am I behaving in this way? And so you are able to kind of think, okay, this is interesting. Why is this happening? Is it because Is it, you know what, you know what, you know, people say that two people can say the same thing to you and you'll react differently because it depends on the person or the scenario or whatever.

Yeah, 100%.

So some person will say something to you and you'll be like really upset with how dare they say that. It's actually the, it's not what they said, is it? It's, it's because it's them who said it.

It's the attachment to the person, isn't it?

Exactly. So when you are in this kind of more aware state and calmer state, you're able to recognize and you're able to think, Oh, you know what? They didn't actually mean it. I'm upset that they said it because of something they did to me a year ago.

Yeah.

And that's what I need to address. It's not the fact that they said, I don't know, oh, you've put on weight or whatever, you know, and you're angry and it's maybe just someone looking out for you, you know? So I feel that we are more able to understand where that anger or that pain comes from versus pinning it on something that it's not, something that is not actually reality. And then therefore being able to then calm yourself down and go, oh my gosh. Yeah. That's not why I'm angry.

If someone was to kind of feel out of place as well in their current environment, 'cause I get messages about this kind of thing all the time, how can someone kind of create a sense of belonging within themselves when they feel out of place in their current environment?

Yeah, gosh. I mean, that's such, I feel like I should be able to answer this so easily because I care about it so much, but now I'm like, how do, how does one do that? How do I do that? I just feel that it's, it's about you trying your best to understand other people's intentions, to understand their perspective. Because, you know, I can think of so many situations where I haven't felt like I belonged. And, you know, a kind of very common scenario for me was always being, I've worked in banking and tech for quite a while. And so it was a very male-dominated environment, and when there were women there, they had certain personality types. And I just didn't fit into most of these places, Mart. I mean, I just didn't naturally fit in. I mean, like, from like what I wore to, you know, the fact that I thought everything was funny, to my hair, to my skin color, to the fact that I was a female, or all these things, you know, there were many reasons why I shouldn't necessarily fit in. And I noticed that on In the occasions where I really felt that people were coming at me were actually the days when I didn't feel good about myself.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. And I'm not saying this is the, this is happening all the time. There were genuinely people within my career who were out to get me. I know that, and it's a very big difference. But when you kind of know someone's out to get you and that's just kind of their personality, you are able to deal with that more effectively. But there were also many scenarios where my way of being was creating a perception of a scenario that wasn't actually happening in front of me. So whether I was thinking, everyone's staring at my hair, why are they staring at my hair or something? I mean, I really actually thought that, but you know, a lot of people would say, oh my gosh, wow, like wild hair or whatever. And those were the moments where I'd think, why isn't anyone listening to me? Why did that person talk over me? And that happens genuinely in some scenarios, but definitely not in all of them. So I would look at it and I would think, interesting, I was having a really bad day. Somebody had been rude to me a week ago, or there's someone who's going to be in this meeting had disagreed with something I'd written and shared with them. And so therefore I think it's gonna happen again and it's actually not gonna happen again. But I go in and I create this scenario when it does, because I'm already feeling het up about it before it even happens. And yeah, there's this thing that is quite useful actually, that I talk about quite a bit in my kind of in-depth meditation training called Rewiring the Software of Your Soul. Um, and that also comes actually from the Vedic traditions, which are part of Deepak Chopra's training, a part of many Vedic traditional training. Um, is this idea that, you know, when you have an experience, a genuine experience, um, you hold it in your memory. And it sits in your subconscious and you think about it and your behavior is based off that memory without you even noticing that you're doing it. And then you take another action that matches that. And then you end up in this cycle of repetitive behavior or thought processes. So if somebody was rude to me in a meeting at work, or that particular person was probably because they were having a bad day themselves, I remember that. Every time I see them, I have the same emotions that pop up.

Yeah.

So I'm ready for a battlefield every time that person walks past me and every time I go into a meeting with them. And then we end up in this cycle of being the horrible colleague. We don't like each other. Nothing works out. I can't stay here. I have to leave. You have to do something within that cycle to change that pattern. And you have to take a different action and a different perspective for you to see that person differently next time. And that's where most of us get stuck. And that's why we don't feel like we belong in so many situations, because we have a genuine memory of something similar, and then we stick that memory on all the other scenarios that come our way, and we feel like we're not supposed to be there. Um, so actually, as much as I hate to say it, sometimes the way that we experience the world has a lot to do with what we can change about our actions and our memories. And that is actually the only thing we can do, is change ourselves versus we can't change all the people coming at us with all their opinions and judgments, but we can change how we deal with that. Um, so yeah, it's, it's, it's feeling belonging, and belonging is like feeling that you have control over your emotions and your perspectives.

It's so interesting how we're built and how our minds automatically go to those places as well, isn't it? If you could give one piece of advice to anyone that's been listening to this episode today about finding ease and belonging in their lives, what would it be?

I think it would be to really hold grace and compassion for yourself, but also hold grace and compassion and empathy for those around you. Um, because we are social beings and people are going through so much. All of us are going through so much. Many of us have been through a lot throughout our entire lives that we're trying to work on ourselves, including me. Um, but so are the people around us. So if we can do the little bit of work to find that awareness within ourselves, to actually understand, understand ourselves better. So understand, who am I?

Who am I?

And when I've done that, how do I go out into the world as this authentic being? And how do I recognize that everybody in front of me is also wondering who they are? Yeah. And to support them on that journey. To recognise that they are going through stuff and it comes out funny sometimes. Have empathy for the people around you. And that would be my piece of advice.

I love that. Thank you, Katie. Lastly, just before you go as well, do you have any retreats coming up or anything exciting that you'd like to talk about?

I do. So much excitement, Mart Tweedy.

I'm obviously manifesting I was just going to say it, money-fest.uk. Shameless plug there.

Why not? I mean, no, I'm super excited about that. Honestly, I am. And I think that connection between meditation, mindfulness, and manifestation is something that I can't wait to talk about. Um, it's like demystify some things, and, you know, bringing ease supports you to manifest, and, you know, taking action supports you to manifest. I know that you agree with all these things. Um, now, but I do run retreats. I've got an incredible retreat coming up in Sri Lanka in March. Where we're actually on a 7, 8, actually 7 nights, 8-day journey of being in this beautiful cocoon in this gorgeous villa where we're going to be doing meditation practices, sound healing, creative crafts, cooking. And the whole point is I've developed this little meditation journey that will support you to find home within yourself. So the whole point is for you to come out of that with your version of belonging, your version of what it means to be you.

Yeah.

So the idea is not that you come out of it with me saying, "You must do this for 10 minutes a day," you know?

Yeah.

The idea is, who are you? What works for you? And how can you navigate the world from this point onwards? And I also include a supportive meditation, one-to-one, after you come back so that we can integrate into the world, like make it realistic, not just for Sri Lanka, but for life. So there are many elements of that where I'm welcoming in a local Sri Lankan entrepreneur who is a beautiful creative soul to join us so that we can fully integrate with this beautiful island as well and not just drop in as, you know, retreatees who don't understand the culture and the people. I'm launching actually probably next week or the week after my first UK retreat in the Cotswolds.

Oh, that sounds good. When is that?

So that's going to be in May next year. Nice. And we're just putting together the final details, but that's coming because I tend to do quite a bit overseas. And for anyone in London, I have these beautiful half-day retreats in Mayfair, and I've got a super special one on the 18th of January, which is called True Presence. So it's half a day of meditation, and I'm going to bring my gong because I'm a gong sound healer as well., and we'll just start the new year with finding really deep, true presence in the moment. So yes, I'm always updating what I'm doing, and I think the easiest way is actually just sign up to my newsletter. And I, I, that's why I remember to tell everyone about everything.

It's funny because I almost signed up to the 18th of January one, and then I realized it's my little boy's first birthday. And that was, I felt so bad. I was like, why does that date stick out? And I was like, oh my God, it's his birthday. It's his first birthday. We're having a huge party and everything. And I thought, why does that date stick out? As I've still got baby brain 10 months in, honestly, I need to meditate. I need to meditate. Um, so Katie, where can everyone find you online?

Yeah, so my website is beinghumanwell.com, and my Instagram is @beinghumanwell. So yeah, that's, that's my mission in life, to help you to be human well. Very easy. Um, and my name, obviously, Katie Mantua George, but you'll find me more with Being Human Well.

Amazing. And what I'll do is I'll also pop all of Katie's links in the show notes for today's episode as well, just in case you can't find her. Katie, thank you so much for joining me for this lovely chat. It's been so great to learn from you, and I'm sure everyone listening will have taken something away from this episode. So thank you so much.

Oh, thank you, Mark. It's been an absolute pleasure. Time has gone so fast. I loved it. Thank you for having me.

I know. Thank you. For everyone else listening, please go and drop Katie a follow. Share this episode with anyone that you think would benefit from the tips and the advice that Katie shared. And if you really enjoyed it, please go and leave a rating or review for this episode, and I will see you all next Friday for another episode. Have a great weekend, everyone. Bye!

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