E343: GoHighLevel vs Hubspot & Sales Snipper Secrets with Matt Ryder

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Welcome back to the big show, John. I came in slow on that one.

You know what, though, Josh? It has. It has been quite a day of. Of interviews, but. But your energy and. And your charisma is still there.

Welcome back.

All right, there it is. I did it. I did it for you.

Oh, God bless America.

Today we interviewed Matt Ryder. Awesome guy, third Aussie that we had. If you don't know what Aussie is, he's the third Australian guest we've had on the show. He's amazing. He is in the world of high ticket sales.

Right.

So this is a very geeky style show, meaning, like, you're going to learn a lot if you're in this space. We go deep into the idea of what is a high ticket sale and what is the way marketing. You know, how do you go from marketing to closing? This is the sales sniper, Matt Rider calling in from Australia. Enjoy the show.

Let's go.

It is not every day that you get to meet a sales sniper like Matt Rider. So I'm glad you're here, buddy. It's great to have you.

Nice to be here.

Yeah, we're excited, buddy.

Here you are. Yeah.

And you know what? For our listeners, this is the third Australian guest that we have had on Capital Hacking. So that's exciting. Matt, can you give us a little background on who you are and. And what. What you guys do?

Yeah, so my name is Matt and I'm sort of a sales specialist. So. Well, like sales and marketing, like acquisitions kind of specialists. Been working in the, I guess, like, sort of more high ticket realm for a while, but before that it was fitness, and before that I was in the military and so been kind of traveling around, going from company to company, you know, flogging my wares and convincing people and other people to give people money, and hopefully I make some money within that transaction somewhere. But, yeah, that's as vague as I can be.

Yeah, you are a little vague. But, you know, Matt did not necessarily want to be on the show, but we're like, we're talking to him and we're learning from him and he's just, he's got some serious gifts. So in the, in this high ticket world, first of all, could you define that for a minute? And you know you're, you're kind of in a type of specialty that we've not had guests on the show. So if you could be a little more like teach us like we don't understand high ticket sales.

Yeah. So I started off in like fitness and then from there, you know, was opening gyms I guess for a living. Like I go around and like kind of like I was, I was an owner, like a part owner and like a gym chain. And then I would kind of go from gym to gym, like filling up the gyms. That's what I would do.

Yeah.

But when I got, actually got out of that just before COVID I'd love to say it was because I saw it coming but I just, just serendipitously got out just before COVID Then from there started like a sales agency where I was doing the sales for gyms. Right. And then transitioned that into like, into like the marketing for gyms. Right. And then that transitioned to like the business coaches for like the marketers, you know what I mean? And then it kind of like, then it was like the coaches that coach coaches that coach type stuff. Right. It's sort of people that run you know, like higher price programs, say three, five thousand dollars plus all the way up to you know, two hundred and fifty thousand dollars for these, for programs. And they usually teach a skill that learns how to make money. But I've also worked in like banking so I've done like some, some. It's like really, really great. I don't know if they can legally be called a bank, but it's called Air Wallix. Really great, like online, sort of like a wise but more comprehensive. Does that make sense? I redid their like APAC stuff. I've worked with like Libman cleaning products which is a large, they do about $450 million. Like I restructured their acquisition client journey, customer pathway. That's where someone learns about them and then from there comes in and becomes a customer. And then how do you then create more out of that customer? So how do you like do a land and expand model or how would you go through and you know, kind of make that buying journey easier and how do you make one that makes sense given the marketing avenues that you have. And so I've done that within a lot of different spaces. The predominant has been either like High Ticket Fitness, which I think is great and I'm doing a lot in that space at the moment. It's also really, really scalable because you can sell it to people more than once. Right. I was quite, quite prolific in sales coaching. Right. I was the one of the sort of founding members and owners and I was a CEO of a company called 7th Level for the past few years which is one of the bigger sales training organizations in sort of the U.S. and then I've done it in you know like marketing and the agency space and you know, you know, basically those sort of like business coaching, entrepreneurship type type areas. You know, know I've, but I've done stuff with like Bradley. So I came in and I basically ran like restructured Lightspeed, which is his company. So we came in there, me and my team, we restructured the sales, marketing operations, client fulfillment, basically everything of that business for over a four to five month period. Even offered to buy it, but he said no. And then, and then yeah, done it, done, done that for a few other companies and yeah, recently sold my share in Seventh Level and now I've come back over to my agency. It's running the whole time, which is Sales Sniper, which is like an acquisitions company. So we usually do the sales and the marketing for companies or sometimes we just do the sales, sometimes we just do the marketing. And then we've just launched a call center. So for the past six months we've been building out a like high ticket call center where people can send us their leads. And then we have like a very, very comprehensive system of assessing those leads and then booking them back into the sales calendars of the people who work within the business. Right. So which is a huge sort of gap in the market given some of the current landscape. But yeah, that's, that's it in a nutshell.

So this is the apex of business is being able to attract and secure a client. It nothing starts until a sale happens. So you're in a beautiful part of the economy. Okay. And doing it sounds like you could do it with teams that are not physically near each other. So you're like a fully remote business. I'm sure you're in Australia. Are the rest of your teammates in America? Where are your teammates?

They're a little bit all over the place. We have a good contingent in the States, like and then we have a, you know, a good contingent, like I'd say more admin and ops and finance is all in Australia because like, like we have an office in Sydney and then you know, A lot of the sales force is, is in the us but there's people in uk, Columbia, you know, Dubai, you kind of name it.

And the part that I just want to make sure I understand and I'm speaking for the listener for a minute. When you come into a business, it sounds like you have a process where you identify what's working, what's not and then you'll take it from there. Right. If someone said here are the keys, they're not, you know, it's not like a piecemeal contract. You would be able to redesign their offers all the way out to close sales.

Yeah. Yep. So generally speaking, like you have to have a good product. Like that's what keeps a business going is the quality of the product. Right. Like you can have the greatest sales and marketing in the world. If the products crap, it's gonna fall apart and as it should, you know, and so it starts with that. But like that doesn't mean that you can't have a good product and not have the, the way that it's presented to the market correctly. And so like, you know, some people, like I recently worked with a phenomenal business. They're like a tech company and this guy's exited three tech companies before, but this one, they're just struggling with the certain things and they've sort of done a bit of a cash burn already through their venture debt and but the offer, it's just, it's, it's everything to everyone. And so it's like we can't do that. And yes, it is everything to everyone, but if you try and market that, you'll speak to no one. And so we did it. We, I took, I spent about a day with them in like in the office and we've parsed out what are some good land and expand models. Right. Like, so they've built this brilliant calendar system which is an AI overlay onto all of your calendars for your sales teams. And it will tell you everything. It will just tell you the show up rates, the no show rates, the best time of day for, you know, it'll go forward looking and backward looking pipeline. So they built this because that's a great land and expand system that every business needs because there is no good kind of unified single source of truth for sales in that way. Like there isn't anything like that because there are so many systems that talk to each other. And so I was like, you know, that's a great way that we can land and expand. Right. Which is, you know, like improving the offer. But it's there. It just needs to be, you know, salesified, I guess. Right. But then from there, like, you know, we have like, we have like a done for you acquisition side. So we'll come in and we'll just kind of like take it over. So we'll go like, okay, you guys deal with the product side. What we'll do is we'll create the marketing plan and then we'll create the sales plan. And then, you know, basically, like, you give us the projections and then from there the like. And then we'll say, hey, this is the budget that we're gonna need to work with that. And then, you know, from there it's like, okay, this is the ad spend, this is the creative. This is how we're gonna do it. This is the platforms we're gonna use. And then start actually like building out everything and media buying.

And so, you know, John, if I can ask a question here. So Matt, I've been referred to you because of your expertise. So, you know, the funny part is, is if the listeners listening to this are like, this guy's super smart and you can do it in a few different areas and high ticket makes sense. Which part of this whole model did you first dive into and fall in love with? Were you great at the analytics online that could get somebody to click on an ad, or were you great at the. On the. After that to the close? Like, where did you get into this whole life cycle?

Like, I, like, I guess I first got into marketing because I used to own my own gym and very competitive space and I'm known for sales. But like, my first thing was like, because I was a sniper. And sniper is all about data, like as any. Any sniper that's even.

You were a real sniper in, in the, in, in the military.

Yeah. So you can. I was a tier one special operations sniper. Right. So equivalent to seals. Right. Or like.

And so they, so what's the first thing they do? They tell you to get data.

Yes. In that world, you could say, hey, listen, we're at this elevation, this direction, cold bore, this distance. Like, what's your data? And someone should just be able to kind of tell you that if they're actively. Right. Because that's their job. And if you can't, like, you're not very good at your job. You know, and so because that's an important thing. And so it's very data driven and shooting is very. It's very similar to marketing and sales standpoint because like, you know, slight changes make, you know, small Levers open big doors, right. And so, and so I took that and then like I always liked that component of shooting. I really, I really enjoyed it. So when I went into the marketing world like I was doing my own. This is back in 2012 and like you could really mess with Facebook and it was a much easier landscape than what it said. I couldn't media buy today. Like I'm sure I could figure it out again, but it's just a much more, you know, it's, it's like you know, someone who drove a Model T Ford and then being chucked into a.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Did you say. So you're talking back in 2012 you jumped in and started buying Facebook meta ads, whatever. It was relatively easy. You would get rid really high.

But I, I, I did a sales copy course by a guy called John Benson. Highly recommended stuff, very serendipitously. He reached out to me about wow about two weeks ago to do his, to sell one of his new programs and I was like, you know, you're the first course I ever bought. So anyway I bought his 3x VESL copywriting course and I had like do copywriting, right? So then that's when I learned about like oh, the headline, like and it's all data, right? So it's like the headline and the picture, you know the picture is going to be and the headline is going to be your click through rate, right? So I can mess with that and the body's going to be this. So all the numbers tell you something about what you can change. And so I got, I got quite good at that in a rudimentary sense. But I was getting very cheap leads from my gym, like way cheaper than any agency could do. And then I had a whole way of like rotating content and offers. I never, I did male, then female and I rotated right. So and then I would give content and I had a whole system that I kind of worked out over the course of years that worked quite well. But then from there like when the gyms got bigger then I, I handed that over to people who are better at it than I was, right. And then I would just do sales. And then like I wasn't good at sales but I kind of had to work it out. And then so I did like a sales training program that was a really rough like very kind of beat em up form of sales. You know, like really old school buy or die. You know, you're not allowed to hang up the phone unless somebody you know either buys or hangs up right. Like that's kind of how we were taught. So that's how I sold for a while. And then from there. Yeah, you know, as I left the gym space, I just, like, I was quite good at the sales component. And so sales is always a big. It's just a big bug where people hate it. Right. And so, like, people hate it, so they're very happy to outsource it. And there's not many good salespeople around. Like, a good salesperson is far more of a commodity, is a far hotter commodity than the business. Right, right. You know, there's that old adage of like, you know, like, I remember when I was on offers and like the CEO, the owner of the business would like, try and tell me stuff and I'd be like, shut up. You're not, like, you're not my boss. You know what I mean? It's like, I'm the best salesperson here. I produce five times the revenue. Everybody else, if I want to park in your parking spot, I'm going to park in your parking spot. Like, what are you going to do, fire me? Like, what's going to. What are you going to do? You know what I mean? Like, that's kind of. That's kind of the attitude that a very, very high producing rep has because they know, what are you going to do? I'll just go to that guy like, all right. So, like, you know, and that's. And that's a problem. But, you know, it is what it is. Which is why when I ran the company, like, it was always easier because they knew that I was better than them in terms of saying I was always the highest producer. And every now and then I would step back in and I would outproduce everybody and then I'd leave.

So how did you take that and build a team? Like, what, so today you're talking about Full stack? Yeah. You've been your, your model, and the people that recommend you believe in you, and. And now you. You're willing to take a product. So going back to that model from a minute ago, that great technology company you're helping, they actually have a very big software. It sounds like you're, you're. You called it Land and expand. Yeah.

Like land and expand. Yeah. So that's cool because it's easier than, like, going, I'm going to fix everything for you. Like, I have the brand equity these days to where I can go, give me everything. And people go, okay, right. You know, it's like when you buy an Apple phone, like, you're gonna pay more, but like you know what you're getting. I'm not Apple. I'm not saying that right. But it's like I have, I don't, like, I don't do any lead generation. I do content. Right. But I don't, I've never, like my agency at its peak when I was full time in it was doing about 25, $26 million a year just on the agency side, never ran an ad.

Wow, right?

$0 advertising. Right.

So this is, this is, I don't want to dig in so much, but there's this, that's exactly what I was about to say. So at the end of the day, the, the acquisition, the full life cycle acquisition to close is you guys are, you guys are driving a pretty sizable spend that would be the way, the way it would look to work with you is a budget for spend, obviously a budget for service and then commissions. So that budget to spend. You know, there's guys out there like Mr. Beast who study, study, study, study data, as you say. And he hacked it. Like the guy can do, you know, he has these stories, he can, he can make something famous even if nobody knows he's behind it.

Yeah.

Is that you? Are you a Mr. Beast for companies?

Oh, I mean, I don't, I don't think that he's a 24 year old billionaire. Yeah, I mean I think, I think, I think, I think, but I think, I think what I am is, is, is more patient than most. Like the, the main reason, like I think because business isn't the hardest thing I've ever done. And I, I've had genuinely difficult circumstances in my life where I've held people as they bleed to death. And you know, I've had to, I've had to deal with difficult things and I realized that like, you know, what's that old line? Like this too shall pass, you know, and I've done enough sales and spent enough of my own money to where I realized that like you can't make really, really quick decisions in business. Like you have to be decisive and you have to. Like a quick decision is not like a decision to do something, but a decision to change something should be quite considered and you need to be in. The biggest issue is people in their sales and marketing are looking for reasons to make changes, but they should be looking for reasons to not. Right. Like if it's the 3rd of July or the 5th of July, you know, right. And all of a sudden their revenue drops, their shop rates drop, right. Like their advertising gets more Expensive. Like you don't change anything. Like it's just because the 4th of July is coming up. That's all it is. Like just chill the fuck out and ride it out. Like it's always going to happen, right? And this is what happens. People don't forecast and plan because they don't. And I do, right? I forecast and I plan very, very meticulously. And so and then from there like if something is working, it's working people. Sales teams don't magically get way better or way worse overnight. So like, and the problem is people are stacking these micro changes that are just total nonsense on top of each other without giving things time to fulminate. Like if I teach you a new script and you go out and do 10, 20 calls and say oh, it doesn't work. It's like, well your first ten you were just learning it. Like you weren't even following it really properly. You were reading it. It was, you can throw them out the window. The next five maybe you got a bit better at. And then the next five you, like you probably, you might have spoken to one type of person. So like with marketing the instances that you get of something happening is really frequent and fast, right? Like 5,000 people to a landing page so you can make changes every 30 minutes.

Oh, okay, work, right.

Because it's not about time, it's about the amount of people that hit things, right? Whereas with sales, like it's a slower moving pace and so it's like just having the patience to sit back and be like guys like this is fine, like we have to go through this process. And I think like a lot of business owners are looking for instantaneous ROI and like nothing worth doing is probably going to give you that. And so like you know, you have to lay foundations and like for a business to be really successful, especially in the marketing space, like there has to be a foundation of like content branding, trust building. Like a lot of people are trying to sell, you know, ten thousand dollar programs and their website is a landing page. It's like guys, you can't do that. Like if you have a look at like because you can see what everyone does, right? You can see where they go and like oh, the best leads are to the website so we should drive traffic to the website. It's like no mate, the best leads just navigate their way to your website through.

That's what I always say.

That's the final opt in part. You know what I mean? It's like don't.

So Matt, you know, we We, I get it. I get that this call is a tricky call, John, because we're digging in on really precise things. But then we. Obviously Matt's doing a great job of teaching principles at the same time, but I will make one joke. He's a sniper. He can do both. He can zoom out and zoom in. So I will say this one funny thing, Matt, to just confirm what you're saying. So we, we do wedding businesses as well as other resort. And they, I, we. We have a lot of leads. Thank God. And they keep telling me it's the website, Josh, it's the website. And I'm like, wait a second. What do you mean? They're like the contact form. That's where we're getting all our leads. I said, timeout. How did they get to the website? You know, was it the social media or was it the paid ads? Because we do spend a lot on paid ads, and I think we are now finally getting better attribution. And it's, it's. It's dominantly coming from the money we're spending. It's not. And the website is just an organization. Yeah, they're just navigating to the website.

Right.

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Hey, this is Matt.

Sorenson, author of the Self Directed IRA Handbook, CEO at Directed Ira. You're listening to the best podcast, the Cat Black. Yeah, it's like, that's where something like hi Rest comes into play. You know, I mean, where you can like revenue attribute or if you use HubSpot and you have all the tracking codes and everything, you can see, like on HubSpot, like the way that I've set up HubSpot for a few businesses, like, I can see if a lead, like, they've gone to the website 32 times in the past month.

So let's do that. That is a, that is a Hot button issue. John and I want you to share and then we'll, we'll kind of pivot to any open question John has or. Yeah, we'll tease the audience. But HubSpot versus go high level. A lot of our friends own companies. What's going on in the world of Go High Level? I mean everybody's talking about it.

Yeah.

What is your opinion of that?

Listen, I think Go High Level is a fantastic alternative to HubSpot for businesses that don't have the budget or the like manpower to run HubSpot properly. But I think like if I, and if I was an agency, well, I am an agency, agency owner, but if I was so inclined and one like I would just put all my clients in HubSpot. I mean on, on Go High Level, like, you know, it's one house, it doesn't talk well with others and I don't think it does anything particularly amazingly, but it does do everything. And if you use it, if you, that's all you use, I think it's a good, it's a good option and it's cheap. I think it's shockingly cheap. And I think that that will have to change. I think they must be cash burning. I don't know how it's so fucking cheap. You can have sub accounts and they're all free. Like I don't know how that works, right. Like I know guys that have agencies and they charge 5k for HubSpot build out and it's Insta clone, right, 5k and it's free. It's like what is happening, right? I think, I think it breaks. I mean. Okay, well that's not true. The biggest business that I've got on there at the moment did 18,000 sales calls last month. Right. That's a lot of calls. And that's running all through Go High Level. So it does work at scale and it is cheap. Like I said. I think from a real nitty gritty standpoint, HubSpot is superior. I think like it is a better product. It is more comprehensive, it is better laid out. The data you can get is cleaner. It's, you know, but it is big and expensive and if you have a shitload of leads, like this business that I just spoke about, we have 90,000 leads a month, right. HubSpot would be obnoxious. Like it would be. Yeah, that's words of thousands a month, right. Maybe 250amonth to run.

Right, right, right, right. That's a, that's a failure. Right.

You know, between. Because we have Close. And we have go high level. You know, we're spending, still spending 80, $80,000 a month on CRM fees. Right. You know, but it's, you know, it's a lot of people and, you know, we're moving over to my, to my new dial that I've built, but which will save some money. But yeah, I think, you know, they're, they're both, they both serve a really, really good purpose. And I don't think there's a wrong answer. I think that HubSpot is a phenomenal. Like, the more I use HubSpot, it really is a phenomenal.

Okay, here we want to jump into the, the closing session because you and I could geek out about this for an hour, but why don't you just give us a little piece of advice for those of us that own companies? And maybe we're not up to the level of hiring you and your agency, but what advice would you give us? In the world of marketing today?

I think agencies are a much better, cheaper, faster option than hiring internally for a lot of things, not necessarily sales. And I own a sales agency. I think that that is, you know, there's certain things where that makes sense and certain things where it doesn't. However, I believe that, like, your goal should be to be able to have a mediocre sales team and still be successful, right? If you require a team of unicorns, then, like, you're, you're probably not at a level where you can recruit them or pay them, right? Like, because, like, it's just, you know, that's just reality. And so, like, your goal should be to create an insulated marketing environment where you're not just reliant on one channel. You should work with the agency that you get closely. You should give them an agency briefing of exactly what you want and the KPIs that you expect, and they should sign off on that beforehand. And you need to give them, like, you need to ask them for realistic feedback and make sure you give them what they ask for. Like, I have a marketing agency, right? Like, the amount of people that don't give me the creative that I asked for is insanity.

They don't give you the what? Can you say it louder?

Right? So like, we'll write them video scripts and we just need them to shoot them. And it's like pulling teeth to get people to do the things. And like, their lead cost drops by 30% the moment we get new creative, right? And we ask for it every day, and it takes three weeks to get it. And it's like, why aren't I getting more sales? Like, well, because you don't want to up the budget. Well, I don't. I can't up the budget to get more sales. Like, well, then shoot the fucking. Yeah. What do you want me to tell you? Like, that's a, that's a common thing, right? Your marketing team, what they need and they will, you know, and then split, test them against other people. Like, I don't give a fuck. People split, test me. But you know, like, and maybe every now and then have someone try and make friends with someone who's decent at marketing so they can audit your shit every now and then. Right? You know, like, it's always good. I've got a mate who's really high level at marketing and I've had him audit my stuff randomly all the time. He's always got access to all the ads accounts and he just goes in there and has a poke around and goes like, oh, you should have a look at that and just make sure people understand my money as well. So. Love it.

Matt, thank you so much for all this wisdom and the depth that you went and fantastic. Where can our listeners connect with you?

Real Matt Ryder, I believe is the Instagram or I think it's Matthew Ryder on YouTube. I sort of do. I like a lot of content. I've been doing content pretty, pretty consistently for a while. Yeah.

Thank you, brother. We can't wait to check it out.

Appreciate it.

Straight. We just got everybody, we got to the end of another great show and everyone listening. Right now. You're the family. Family and friends. Thanks for staying till the end.

That was so fun. And hey, hit the like, hit subscribe. We're here to serve you guys. That's why we're doing this show. Josh is not paying me. I'm doing this off of my quote, unquote sweat equity because we want to make a difference in your life. And then that ripple effect will continue to touch the world.

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