How To Develop a Sales Process with Matt Ryder

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Ending small business failure. Welcome to the Small Biz Chat podcast with the number one small business expert, Melinda Emerson. Melinda's goal is to end small business failure and she'll give you the information you need to succeed and live the life you dream of. Now here's your host, the Small Biz Chat lady herself, Melinda Emerson.

Have you subscribed to the Small Bichette podcast? Well, it's time. Every Wednesday we offer listeners bite sized, actionable tips to start and grow a successful small business. In just 20 minutes or so a week, you can get a ton of insight and resources to propel your business forward. Be sure to subscribe to the Small bizchat podcast today. Hi everybody. Thank you all for joining us on the Small Biz Chat podcast. Hopefully you're watching us on my Small Biz Lady YouTube channel or on my Small Biz Lady Facebook page. Be sure to share and like and leave a comment. Or if you have an idea for a topic for an upcoming episode, leave that for us as well. We want to make sure we give you what you need to succeed in business. Now it's time for me to introduce my guest, Matt Ryder. He's a former special forces serviceman, founder of Sales sniper and currently serves as the CEO of the seventh Level Group. Matt's rapid ascent in high ticket sales showcased his unique approach which was his adoption of NEPQ, the seventh level method, which quickly propelled him to a consistent 100k per month within 90 days. With a global reach, Matt oversees sales teams and are passionately ensures broad access to transformative training. His CEO role at seventh Level reflects his commitment to empowering individuals in all aspects of life through valuable tools, training and strategies. For more information go to seventh level hq.com matt welcome to the Smallbiz Chat podcast.

Hello, nice to be here. Thank you so much.

Well, I really appreciate you because you're joining us all the way from Australia so I know it's early where you.

Are, turn the camera upside down and everything.

Well, thank you so much. So tell us a little bit about you. How did you become this, this sales beast? Right.

Yeah, so I was in, I was in special, you know, was in high school and then went to university. I was, I was going to be a doctor and then decided about six months in that I would rather join the army, much to my parents chagrin and then so dropped out, joined the military and then ended up going into special operations and then became a sniper. Did that for a number of years and got deployed and did the thing that young 20 year old men do in the military. And then from there when I got out, sort of opened, I went and became a personal trainer because when you get out of the military you've only got two options, become a copper personal trainer. So I chose personal trainer, right. And then after that ended up opening up a gym, ended up opening up 17 more of them with a sort of like small conglomerate of business partners. We had, yeah, we had like 120 staff. Then from there became a relatively disenfranchised with how the business was sort of operating in terms of its, its sort of treatment of people and you know, some, some other things like that. And so I basically sold my share, sort of borderline walked away from it just before COVID And what I was doing in that organization was I was really focusing on the opening of the new facilities and then doing all the sales and teaching the sales and kind of ensuring that the, the front end money kept coming in. So I was selling basically for about 10 years. I was selling probably five to six days a week for seven to eight hours a day. You know, just making sure that we had enough memberships to come through. And then from there when I, when I transitioned out of that, I started my own business because I didn't really have much, had invested everything in the business. We sort of sold but sort of walked away. So we didn't get that much for it because I really wanted out. And so we didn't have much money and my, my wife was pregnant with my second child and so I was like, well, I guess I'll just do my own thing. Um, and so ended up sort of cold calling gyms and going like, hey, I'm pretty good at fitness sales. And they were like, yep. And so I ended up doing fitness sales for people's, you know, and then I ended up sort of calling a lot of gyms and getting a lot of clients doing that because it's a very unique skill set selling fitness over the phone. There's only people that can actually do it. And so after a while I ended up having like an international slew of clients and I was starting selling at 5 o' clock in the morning and then I would sort of time zone hop across the world. So I would, I would sell like us and then I would sell Australia and then I would sell back to US and then to UK in the evening and then I would come back in the morning and go back to Australia. So from like 5am, 6am to like 11pm, wow. Hey Sydney's. An expensive place. So, you know, nice things cost nice things money, right? So you got to do the things that you got to do. And then from there ended up sort of the marketing companies who were doing the sales for the gyms got in touch with me and they were like, hey, what are you doing? This is unique. And they sent me a lot of clients. And so I started building that site out. And then the marketing companies eventually came to me and asked me to do their sales for them. And by this time I had like a team of people and I was sort of building everything out the way that I wanted to build things out and setting everything up from an ecosystem standpoint to where it was a relatively optimized machine and fairly profitable. And there weren't many leads that were getting wasted because I was used to spending my own money on leads, right. So. So then I started doing the sales for the marketing companies and then like the business coaches, the marketing companies came to me like, what are you doing? And that's how I sort of got into like the more like higher ticket sort of consultancy type space where I was like, selling those kind of services. When I was doing that, I became quite successful. I was doing fairly well. And then I ran into a guy called Jeremy Miner who had a like, sort of sales methodology called NEPQ. I paid him 80% of everything that I had to coach me. And then. And then over the course of about nine months, I sort of dove very deep and very obsessively into his methodology. Became quite enamored with it because it was very different to what I was used to. Was very leaned out, very subtle, very strategic, but a phenomenal experience for the prospect. I saw my personal income go. Go a lot higher, go sort of into the seven figures as like a commission, only closer. And then started seeing my team do a lot better as well. And then eventually became his sales guy, then eventually became business partner and CEO. And we've been. We've been sort of doing the thing for a while now, you know, and that's. We have a couple of different, you know, sales snipers like that done for you side still still goes. We do the sales for. We're generally under an NDA for some people that you definitely know. So we sort of run the sales for them and we train, manage, develop the sales processes, architect the system. And then from there, like we provide our own reps, you know, to actually do that for them. And it's like an external sales function. And one of the good things is that at seventh Level, we have a tremendous capability of finding sales reps. We average about 4 and a half to 5,000 new customers per month and a wide range of services. So like we, we have a large ecosystem of salespeople. So. Wow, that's basically it. That's, that's it in a nutshell.

That sounds really impressive. So tell me, what are the elements of a strong sales process? You build sales process for companies big and small. So what does everybody need to have?

Yeah, it's, it's funny like I've built sales processes for banks, you know, for, you know, companies worth $12 billion. And we've done it for companies that do $50,000 a month in revenue and sort of everything in between. And I think the key thing is that yet you have to understand the journey and the experience that the prospect's going to go through and then they, it can't all be the same. I sort of go back and I think one of the reasons why I had a unique ability to, to do this was because as a sniper, like, you know, you have to understand every variable because they're relatively important. So if you're like the direction you're shooting, the elevation you're shooting, the temperature outside, you know, the wind, the distance, et cetera, there are a lot of variables that would affect it. And so for me, every single time, no matter what I did, I always set up a tracking system to be able to minimize variables because I wanted to work on the things that were actually important. Whereas a lot of people, they don't track and they don't set up data in a way where it's actually effective. They just set it up to have a pretty dashboard look at it and then say, why don't I have enough money at the end of the month? But in reality there are a lot of small nuances and small differences that setting up a sales process to accurately track and to have like a bespoke, like a bespoke way process for someone to go through depending on where they came from. Like I'll give you an example. Like you wouldn't treat an inbound lead the same way that you would treat a referral, the same way that you would treat an email, the same way you would treat a website inquiry. Like they can all go into similar pathways, but they it needs to be explored that there's a potential that they should be different. Some sales processes need to be intentionally extended to add friction points and potential drop off in order to figure out what's going right and wrong. Some can and then from there you can be shortened. Right? Ideal everyone just, you know, you pick up the phone or you meet person once and you get a bunch of money out of it. Like that's not reality. So what we need to do is find like what is the right amount of time and what are the things they need to experience in order to put the salesperson and the business in a position to be able to have a high percentage or likelihood of converting the right people. Which is another really important. So having really clear client avatars and stuff like that. But if you really about mapping out the ideal process, figuring out what they need to see and then from there figuring out what are the friction points. So potential drop offs and then putting in a tracking system in place and then being able to then delineate the skill based activities along the way and the process based activities. I can give you a quick example of that. So let's just say we're doing outbound dialing and then the prospect picks up and then we talk to them. So the outbound dial is obviously one thing, the pickup is another sort of like decision point. They can pick up or they can not pick up. Right. There's plenty of things that you can do to increase pickup rate, you know, a 2P compliance, local area dialing speed to lead, etc. There are a lot of things there that would affect the pickup rate. And then from there if somebody picks up, there are three options. There's a voicemail, there's hey, please go away and don't ever call me again or call me later. And then there's a conversation. Right. The first one, the actual pickup is a process based because there are things that you can do from a back end standpoint that would make that more effective. It's not a skill. Okay, but then the, the, the once someone's picked up the conversation versus go away rate, that is a skill thing. And it's a skill that's specific to the opening line of the script. And so if someone, and that is a top of funnel sort of activity. And so if you get someone much better at that, they will have a tremendous amount more people that go through the entire process. Therefore you'll make more sales by proxy without that person really having to get any better. And everyone's running around in sales training land trying to get better at handling objections, but in reality they have no idea what they're good or bad at. And so a good sales process creates an ideal scenario for the prospect, but it also facilitates a system where a salesperson, a sales manager in a business can identify the failings of the process and the failings of the individual who's doing it and then put things in place to tangibly fix it step by step.

So you're saying that sometimes it's the system, sometimes it's the sales rep, but the point is you gotta be tracking everything, Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, I think, I think the key is to make things probably unnecessarily complex in the beginning and then simplify them as you go. You know, in terms of your actual tracking. Like if you track everything, you can figure out what's not worth tracking. The issue is if you, you don't know what's worth tracking. And it's not that I know it's worth tracking, but I know how to figure out what is worth tracking over time. Like, I never would have thought a year ago that, that the total delinquency rate of credit cards in the United States would have affected my business. However it does, I've done the analysis. The two big things that really affect us as a business, business to consumer business of a high volume clientele. One is housing prices and two is delinquency rates. Because recently a lot of funding people have brought in. After speaking with our, with, with funding partners, they've brought in debt to equity ratio as one of the key factors instead of just income and credit. So what does that mean to me? I can do an analysis and I can say what are the highest, what are the lowest debt to equity ratio people in America? A lot of the time it's like 29 to 39 year old males. Why? Because they've just started their family, they just bought their house, they haven't paid any of it off. Right. So in marketing we can sort of start to use that to our advantage and we can start to put them down different pathways and you know what I mean, and sort of segment people out based on demographics because you get all that kind of stuff for marketing and then show people different things and then you can have a higher efficacy rate of your sales because you're showing them a more appropriate product for the economic time. And so like I didn't know that a year ago, you know. And so after doing the analysis, you know, is another one. I wouldn't have thought that a 2 pay would have a lower fulfillment rate than a 3 pay, but it does by a fairly significant margin in our business. So we don't offer two pays. So you know, there's, there's all, there's all kinds of Stuff like you just don't know what you don't know. And so by, by tracking as much as you can. And the good thing is with things like Chat GPT these days, they have an automatic data analysis tool. And there's a few other things that you can, that you can do to, you know, streamline a few things if you don't have a large team like I do. But you know, I think that like, the more you can track and then sit down and spend the time and try and find some correlative patterns and, and think how a lazy man thinks, which is like, what's the least amount of things that I could possibly change to, to, to have a really positive impact and influence on what's going on.

Well, what about developing your sales goals? How do you suggest people go about doing that?

I think it depends on the business. But if I had to speak to like the sort of more like entrepreneur type person, I would say the way that I recommend doing it is first of all, what do you want to take out of the business? That's a very important metric that people don't really talk about very much. How much money do you want to make? Let's just say it's like 500k. Whatever it is. Right. I want to take from 500k. All right, cool. What would the business need to make in order for me to do that, given my historicals? Not like some pie in the sky number. Right. And then from there, like that becomes my revenue projection for the year. Right. And then I kind of work that back month by month knowing this sort of growth curve or if I'm not growing that year, if I am growing that year, and then from there break that down line item by line item. For me, what I do is I break that down and I create the forecast and the budget based off that. And then the sales targets that they usually get are about 5% higher than that. Depending on the size that we're sort of doing, it can be anywhere from 2 to 5. Sometimes 5 is an awful lot of money and it just sort of becomes a little bit untenable. But that's also the number they need to hit in order to get their bonuses. So yeah, so like, and, and, and, and then that is a number that's deconflicted against like customer service to ensure that we can actually handle that volume of client. And then we break that down as to sales targets per product. And then that is what marketing uses in order to put together the segmented marketing budget so that we can sort of market the right products and services.

So let's talk about how to generate qualified lead, because there's a difference between a marketing qualified lead and a sales qualified lead. And how, how do you get from sort of like top of the funnel to a sales qualified lead?

Yeah, so I think the most important thing is understanding your client avatar for each product. So there's obviously like an overarching client avatar for the entire business. And then from there they're like, if you have multiple products or if you have one product, it's really simple. But like we have very, very defined and distinct client avatars for each product. And that's based on, you know, survey data, focus groups that we've done with clients, etc. Etc. And then also like, you know, payment, fulfillment rates and all that kind of good stuff. And then from there we create marketing mechanisms to like disqualify. The reason why we do that, because I don't want to tell everyone to do that, is because we have a tremendously high lead volume. Last, last month we generated 35,000 leads. And so like we don't want 35,000 people, right? So like we have a disqualification form of marketing where we bring a lot of people in and then we push them out as we go. So and then the sales qualified lead comes in, like at a particular point there's a handover where they can go down two options. One is that a person will call them to see if they're in the client avatar and if they are, they'll have a discussion with them and then send them off to a sales process. So they're like, they sort of up grew gray area people or they have an application form that they'll fill out where depending on how they answer, they get sent different places. And so it's really all about defining a client avatar and then figuring out what the optimal amount of people is. And the reason why you would change that. Like, I think that that on a principled stance is a good way to do it. But you don't want to disqualify people a lot of people, like we do if you don't have an awful lot of leads. And if my lead flow dropped to say 10,000 leads, right. For like for this month, I would push a lot more people through and have the sales team do the sifting instead of having the marketing team. And the less opportunity that you have, the further you push the sifting towards the sales, the more opportunity you have, the further away from the sales you push the sifting, if that makes sense. Because you want to be full with the highest possible quality lead, but be full. So if there's one month where they're full of people who are two out of ten, hey, at least you're full. And if there's one month where you're full with four out of, with a, with like a nine out of ten, fantastic home run, everyone's happy as Larry. So it's really a kind of variable metric that's based on opportunity. But it's really important that those client avatars are dialed in so that you can have a very, very clear distinction of who should be sold what and then have that conversation each sort of month or each quarter based on opportunity and volume on how you're pushing those people through.

Now I want to switch gears with you a little bit and talk about how to hire a great salesperson because I think this is a big challenge for a small business, especially because there's seasoned small business out, small, seasoned sales experts out here. There's newbies just out of, you know, what is, what is the best sort of like salesperson avatar that you could go after?

Yeah, it's, it's a difficult one because everybody wants, you know, sales killers. Right. But I think the first thing you should do is take an actual audit of what you're offering. And I know that you love your business and I know that, like, that's great, but you probably aren't at a stage where a really good sales rep will consider you. That's right. So, like having been a very in demand salesperson myself, I would only choose the, the absolute. Like if you only have one marketing channel, I would never sell for you. Right. Like if you're relying only on meta. Sorry if you don't have a comprehensive content strategy. Sorry if you don't have like multiple tiered products. Sorry if I, if I can't call your clients and have them have a good experience. Sorry. Right. The reason being is because there are a hell of a lot more businesses than there are good salespeople. Right. So salespeople, for lack of a better term, at the hot chick at the bar. And it will always be that way. And so you want to set up your business to not require a rock star. And if you do, there's something wrong. So. And getting a rock star early can actually be a real problem. I have been two businesses that I was the salesperson and when I left, they went bankrupt within about six to seven months because I was selling an awful lot of people. They made the assumption their marketing was good and I would tell them, hey, this marketing needs a real revamp. This isn't good. I'm just good at creating a comprehensive strategy that sort of picks up a lot of the slack for poor marketing. But they didn't know what I was doing because I was doing it myself. And so I'm, because I've owned my own businesses and I'm very daughter and process driven and so, and for me, I found it quite scary to put somebody else's, like to put my livelihood for my kids and my wife in somebody else's hands in the marketing department. So I would do an awful lot of stuff to really generate more leads in the ecosystem and get the CRM and just do all kinds of things like that. Um, and, and so the, the, the key would be like do an assessment, figure out where you're at and don't set up for a unicorn because if you do get one and, and you don't take the feedback of like, hey, this marketing isn't good, then you expect somebody else to come in. Then you make your KPIs what that person was doing. But Steph Curry be doing Steph Curry things. You know, you can't get a guy off the bench to come in and be Steph Curry. Like it just doesn't work that way, right? Like you just give that guy the ball and he makes magic happen. Like that's just what it is. And if you get one of those guys early, it will, it will destroy a few things because you will expect that forever and you'll be chasing it. And so set the business up to be appropriate for the level of rep that you want. A sales rep will not come in and design your sales process. It is not their job. And the person who can do that will leave quickly because there are a rocket ship on the way up, right? So if you're expecting that, then just hire a professional to set up your sales process and then bring a person into a process that's cogent and makes sense. The second thing is like, you know, figure out if you're going high reward, high risk or low reward, low risk. Are you going base plus commissions? Are you going commission only? There's obviously, you know, there's, there's obviously HR considerations that in terms of like what it is they're doing and where they're doing it. But you know, most people who are really good are going to want a higher risk model because they back their skills and then from there it's about. So once you have that ecosystem, I like to interview, I don't think qualifications mean much right now when it comes to sales. Right. If they have any pq, obviously they're better. Right. You know, which is what we sell. But I like to give a little bit of pushback and tell the person I think that they're not right for the job and see what happens. And then I, I, I also like to just ensure that they have the right attributes and that they're ethical and all that kind of stuff. And, but it's very difficult to tell that. And you know, salespeople are like, sort of use sports cars. They, they can look really nice in the lot, but you know, you know, it's not until you start driving it that you're really going to make sure. So I tend to over hire and then from there, like we cut back with salespeople, but definitely give them something that they need to object to. So I, I would say, hey, man, like, this has been a really good conversation. I just, I just, I'm just not 100% convinced that you're right for the, that you're a right fit for the job. And then just see what happens. If they go, oh, well, that's unfortunate. They're not a very good salesperson. If they actually sort of like go, oh, well, help me understand that. What do you. And they actually go and try and like rebuttal and sort of handle your objection, then chances are it's worth giving them a shot.

I love it. I love it. When we come back on the small business podcast, we're going to talk more about sales and how we can all get better. You're watching the small Biz chat podcast. I'm Melinda Emerson, your host and we will be right back. Hi, I'm Melinda Emerson, small biz lady, and I want to welcome you to Small Biz Lady University. Our mission here is to end small business small business failure. So all of the courses here are about two things. How to become your own boss or how to make money online. So that's what we do here. So whether you want to learn about email marketing and sales funnels or you're ready to get started with social media selling, or if you're really just getting started with E commerce, you might want to jump into our how to sell and market online course. Either way, if you want to learn how to become your own boss and do it well, I have everything you need here@smallbizladyuniversity.com. if you have any questions or have any technical problems getting signed up, just email us@supportelindaemerson.com Take care. Welcome back to the Small Biz Chat podcast. I'm Melinda Emerson, your host and we're talking with Matt Ryder about all things sales and how we can all get. All right, Matt, talk to me about leads. Like how many leads should a professional service business, for example, be bringing in every week?

Probably the exact amount that the data says they need to, to hit their sales targets, I would say. So it's actually like a formula. Have you ever heard the term mind? It's most important numbers and drivers sort of usually goes along with KPIs and OKRs and all the other fantastic TLAs, which stands for three letter acronym obviously. So it's a really good system that allows you to kind of figure out exactly all the numbers that need to be hit based off like historicals or some pretty good assumptions. And so it starts off with your revenue target like we spoke about earlier. And then from there let's just say like I'm going to break down from lead source A. Let's say we want to get, you know, we need to generate X amount of dollars, like a million dollars. Right. And let's just say it's a ten thousand dollar sale. So I need to do what, like a thousand sales or something like that? I'm not very good at math. So. Yeah, and be like, let's just say I'm just going to go with 100 sales because easy now if I need to make 100 sales, then let's just say our closers, our sales team closes at 50%. So I need 200 sales calls to show up. Okay. Then from there to get 200 sales calls to show up because we're not going to have 100 show up rate. I'm just going to use another easy number. Let's say it's a 75 show up rate. So we have what, 300 bookings. Right? So 300 bookings is. 200 show up is, you know, or that'd be 66. Sorry. And then, and then, and then there's a 50 close rate and then we make our 100 sales. Right? So and then from there it'd be like, all right, cool, whatever. Let's just say that they're, they're booking in straight from like a, you know, from a, like an application form. Well, how many people need to fill out the application form in order to get to 300 bookings? Let's just say it's 600. Okay. And then it's how many people need to get into like page A to see that application form, let's just say it's 3,000, okay? And then from there to get 3,000 to get to that application form, how many people need to click through to the ad to get to the page, right? And then from there it's just a way backwards, like what's the click through rate? And then from there it's like, okay, well what's our average cost per click? So now we have a budget for that particular campaign. How often do we have to rotate the ad creative on a high spend month? You have to rotate ad creative a lot, right? Like I think last month we spent $846,000 on paid advertising. So like that there's a lot of ad creative that goes into that because we had a particularly high month because of like an event. We had like a 20,000 person event. So so, you know, like all that kind of stuff. And so then from there you basically have from that channel based off your historicals, exactly how many people you need to get through the sale process and then exactly how many people, how many leads you need in order to facilitate that. And so it goes back to what we were talking about before. You just want to be full and so be as full as you can be. And I don't like to delineate really good leads and bad leads because, you know, especially if it's a financial qualification because money is title. There are times where I've been quite doing quite well. There are times when I've not been doing well. There's also times when I'm doing well where I have more cash or less cash depending on investment reinvestment, like whatever it may be, right. And so I like to create pipelines and conversations are one of the best ways to do that. And I don't think that one of my biggest bugbears and fire anybody or don't hire anybody that says this, who says that, like, oh, those leads aren't worth my time. It's like first of all, everyone's of the same value. I don't care how much money you have that really doesn't have a bearing on how much value you have as a person. And second of all, like, you know, if I'd talk to them, why wouldn't you? It's like, you know, they might buy in six months. And if your product or service is genuinely a net good and it, and it really helps people because all businesses just kind of either fulfill an emotional need or solve a problem and hopefully do it at a profit, then give that person the opportunity to see what you do, because you might solve a serious problem. And maybe they can't buy it there, and then it doesn't mean that they can't buy it in three, six, or 12 months. And that's how successful businesses and salespeople create pipelines of lots of people who want to. Who want to do business with them, because they are talking to people and they are out there. And, you know, the more people you talk to, the more likelihood you have of. Of having people either think you're a moron or think you're good enough at your job to where they want to do business with you.

All right, Matt, tell me the best business advice you've ever been given.

So my. One of my. One of my mentors or my. My main mentor is a guy, is a guy called Kim Manley, who is the CEO of Smirnoff. And he.

He.

The best advice he ever gave me was that you will never make truly good business decisions until you are independently wealthy of the business. Um, and so that. That really stuck with me because I think, like, the. I was very much in the. In the mode for a long time of this constant reinvestment back into the business of all the money, because I. I had this vision of, like, creating this monster. And listen, I have a pretty big business. However, during that time, like, the amount that I foregoed personally, I think, looking back, was over the top. And the only people who really benefited, the only people who that really detracted from was my family. And so. And also what. And also, like, my staff and myself as well. Because. Because I need the business for money, it's very difficult for me to make the right decision for the business. There's a reason why Bob iger is worth $690 million. There's a reason why CEOs are paid so much money. And it's. It's. It's. It. A lot of it is really to insulate their need for the money. If you're paid $50 million a year, you're pretty good three months in, right? Right. Like, you're. You're pretty fine. And so if you need the business for money, you will always make a more employee mindset decision. So once I sort of. Once I sort of, at least for me, figured that out, I was able to structure the business in a way where I was able to make a good, very, I would say, healthy amount of personal income, bring it to someone who really knows what they're doing, you know, like a wealth management person, and then from there, you know, generate a pretty significant income outside of the business which then freed me up to really make fairly, you know, money agnostic business decisions which has sort of, you know, taken me from working 50 to 60 hours a week to working 20 to 25 and having the business be kind of more efficient than what it ever has been and profitable. So love it.

Love it. Matt, thank you so much for being here all the way from Australia. I so appreciate you and you have really given us so much great information and with that I want to leave you with this. You never lose in business and either you win or you learn. God bless everybody.

Thanks for listening to the Small Biz Chat podcast with Melinda Emerson. Subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to podcasts and join us next Wednesday for more fantastic information and interviews. You can find more sources and small business success strategies by visiting Melinda's website. Succeed asyourownboss.com thanks again for listening and we'll see you next week.