Sales Weapon Matt Ryder on Targeting Your Niche and Taking the Shot

Hey, my name is Matt. I'm a special forces sniper. And yes, ladies, I am single.

As humans, we take things personally. Like everything. Right. We try to give everything a meaning when it's like things just happen.

Kill a lion and feed your family. Hot take. I'm killing the fucking lion.

In the sales world, you're paid essentially on outcome.

Being a PT is one of the easiest ways to live at the beach and make 100k.

Matt Ryder.

Hello.

The sniper.

That's me. Some have called me the world's best. Yeah. Not often, but it has happened.

Many confirmed kills?

A few more than. Definitely.

Definitely.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mate, you've got a. You've got an interesting story. Yeah, some would say pretty interesting, I think.

Yeah. Well, I'm 41 now, so, I mean.

You don't look it.

You can't tell. Yeah.

Since you moved to Kensington, you look younger.

I haven't moved there yet.

I'm on the way today. I talk a lot in my content when I'm not talking about property investing or pissing lefties off. I'm talking about how people can increase their incomes.

Yeah.

And you're in the sales business. You didn't start in the sales business.

No one does. Everyone just ends up there, literally.

I was a construction worker.

Yeah.

How the fuck do I earn more money?

Yeah, yeah.

But it's the ultimate way is sales. Right. Like it's an uncapped earning potential if you are that way inclined. So I want to cover off your story and then I also want to cover off how you got into sales. How anyone can essentially get into sales if they have, you know, the right, the right will, I guess, the earning capacity from that.

Yeah.

And then we're going to touch on some real estate stuff as well.

Yeah. I can walk you through like everything I did and I think I wasn't good at sales.

You are now.

I am. I'm. I'm okay.

My team thinks I'm terrible at sales now. After you spoke at our retreat, I.

Mean, compared to me, you are. Although. Although, it's funny, right, because like there's a lot of, I guess these days, like snobbery in sales because like. But the only measure, the only measure of a sales rep is how many sales they make. And so by that measure you're a fucking monster. Like, and there's so many different types of salespeople and you're a charismatic, like heavily influential, kind of like product knowledge salesperson. So you in it, you love it. You're passionate. That's non transferable. Right. It's a non transferable type of sale.

Meaning that like other people couldn't do what I do because they're not me or.

Yeah, well, because like you are selling as you, you're confident, you know what I mean? You know, to seemingly no reason. Yeah, right. But like, you know what, you live it, you breathe it and you take the action. So like you pull people along with you.

It's like influence.

Yeah, exactly. And then there are people that you know and that's really good when you're selling something that you really know, that you're really passionate about. But for like a sales, like a professional salesperson that can bounce around and sell all different things, that doesn't. That's not like a super applicable way of selling because you, you have to sort of live and breathe it. And if I want to come in and act, I live and breathe it and seem like I live and breathe it. I have to sell in a little bit of a different way because I could go into here and I'd be the top guy. I could go over, you know, on handler's team and be the top guy. I could go and sell at a bank and be the top guy. Yeah. You know, because you gotta, you can figure it out. It's like a different way of doing.

It, which is that new. Like, I mean, I'm assuming most people have seen this like high ticket closing thing, right? It's like go learn how to sell, go and learn the skills of being a great salesperson and then try and hop around to different offers and make heaps of cash.

Yeah. I mean, the irony is that everyone in that space is comically garbage, you know what I mean? And it's because they never actually had to sell anything. So like when I was in, I was in the military and then when I got out, I became a personal trainer. Right. You have two roads legally. Corporate, personal trainer. Those are your only options, right?

Or hitman or something.

Exactly. Right, Yeah. I was actually offered, I was offered poaching poachers in, in Africa, right? And you're paid by the head. Literally you had to present the head.

So people who are trying to take out the elephants, you take out them.

And I was like, yeah, but they're probably just trying to feed their families, you know what I mean? I was like, if it was me or a lion, if I can kill a lion or feed your family, hot take. I'm killing the fucking lion for sure. Give a shit, like fuck you, right? I'll kill everyone in this room to feed my Kids. Right. So, yeah. Right. And so like, I was like, no. And then I got offered, like, shooting camels in Northern Territory, you know, because, like, I was like helicopter qualified.

And so there's not, well, like, camels fucking.

Oh, man. There's like too many camels. There's herds of millions of wild camels out there just in the middle of nowhere right there. So they just got to just. The government pays to have the slaughtered. If you didn't know that, that's where your tax dollars are going.

There you go.

Yeah. I was offered all kinds of weird stuff and I sort of made a distinct decision. I didn't want to spend my life with a gun in my hand because, you know, I was in special operations and I was in snipers. And so I was good at that. But I was like, this is not a fulfilling thing. And as I've gotten older, I've realized, you know, we're probably the best.

There's more to life than killing people.

Yeah, exactly.

But the interesting thing is, regardless if you're in special ops or you were, you know, in retail or whatever it was, you essentially made that switch from being on what essentially was a fixed income. I mean, you got paid different amounts to do different things, obviously, and then you moved into an industry where you have an unlimited earning potential.

Yeah. And PT is, I think fitness is a really good, like, first foray into that because it's like a huge tam. You know, it's one of the only things you can sell people more than once. You know, there's new people that need it every day and there's just a constant demand and it's sort of recession proof in a way.

Team is total addressable market, basically.

That's true.

Which means there's lots of fat people.

That you can sell. There are, there's more every day. Right. McDonald's is just churning them out and.

Then you can resell them when they get skinny.

Yeah.

And they go and get fat again.

Yeah. And like, you know. Yeah. There's different niches and goals and you can sort of have a huge clientele and your hourly rate is outrageous. Yeah. Like, you know, you do an eight week course with AIF or whatever and you can charge 100 bucks an hour. I mean, to be a tradie and get to charge 100 bucks an hour, like, you have to be qualified to the shithouse to get that. Whereas, you know, being a PT is one of the easiest ways to live at the beach and make 100k a year, you know. And so I did that and then sort of realized I was like, okay. So I went down the education path, realized that the better I got, it didn't really equate to one to one of like getting more business. I would hold the business, but I didn't get it. And then when I opened my own gym, I thought, like, if you build it, they'll come type thing. And they just didn't. And so we had to figure out.

You didn't just open the doors and people just walk in.

No, no, no.

Like, you're the guy that got offered to shoot the camels.

I even like was like dressed up in a, in like a gorilla suit in Bonni Junction, like giving our body assessments. Right.

Like just that was the point where you're like, fuck, I should have taken the camel job. Exactly.

I was just like, jesus, oh, how the mighty have fallen. And so, yeah, so did all that. And then I was like, did some courses on like sales and marketing. I love the marketing side. I was really into it. So I had a business partner and so I was like, hey, you did the sales out of the marketing. So I did all the meta ads and all that kind of stuff. And then from there, as it grew, we sort of both had to go into the sales. And I was terrible at it. I just didn't like it. I think it was because I had a distinct lack of like, empathy because I'm sort of like, my tendency is sort of more sociopathic, which is why I was sort of in the job that I was. Yeah. Having kids and getting older, I've like softened a lot. So I like, I feel feelings now. Yeah. You know, I'm sort of like actually have some emotional. Right.

Less, less sociopathic.

Whereas back then I was like, what do you mean?

What do you mean you're fat?

You know, it's like it wasn't like the most motivating sales style. And then, you know, over the, over the course of time, I sort of like, when you're a sniper, you have your data and you make all your adjustments based off data. And if you don't know your data in that world, you're a total piece of shit. Like, people hate you. Right. And so I was like, oh, okay, if I'm going to do this, I'll write down everything that happens and then I'll try and find the patterns.

So you've got like interchangeable skills essentially. Right. Like what sort of data you tracking as a sniper? Like the.

Oh, well, I mean like you're going to do like a cold barrel shoot. You know, facing directly north, you know, and. And it's. It's a high elevation, it's cold. It's a very different shot than facing south. Low elevation, high humidity. Because, like, there's a lot of factors that affect the bullet, the gun, you know, like, if the barrel's cold, the propellant doesn't go as fast so that the bullet doesn't go as fast, so it drops earlier. You know what I mean? Obviously. Right?

Yeah. Like, fuck, I'd.

You know. But if you're trying to shoot someone in the face of, you know, 1500 meters, like, there's not a lot of error. Right?

So, man, I can't shoot. I was using a gun once. It's in Tamworth at Emma's cousin's property. And we had cans on roc. Literally like 20 meters away.

Yeah.

Couldn't do it.

Well, you know, not everyone's built to be a bear.

I wasn't tracking my data.

You were talking about it's a coal barrel. Yeah.

I think the sniper. The scope was out or something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A good crafts and flames are tools. That's the way it works. It definitely doesn't shoot straight.

It's the dialer.

Yeah. So, yeah. So, you know, went through and I started tracking stuff. Then I started was going, okay, like, I need to know how many sales I want to make, how many conversations need to have, and you just sort of go down to, like, the activity requirement. And so I just started doing that. And then as we grew and I went into a partnership and ended up being a part owner, like, 18 gyms. My job was just to, like, basically go into the new gyms and then grow them quickly and then get out and then do it again. So all I did was sell eight hours a day, Right. There was five, six days a week on the phone. I used to get a CSV file emailed to me. And it was like, stupid targets. It was like 40% lead to sale. That was the actual target, which is very, very high.

It's like, in context, ours is like, one.

Yeah. But like, like, yeah, and we did. I didn't know how stupid it was. And, like, none of us did because we're all kind of flying by the seat of our pants, you know, And. And so we ended up doing that. And then I sort of just cracked the shits with it because there are decisions being made that I didn't agree with. And then I was just like, fuck this on my own. And then I started, like, a sales agency for gyms. And so that kind of grew out. And then I was doing like, I was doing the sales for gyms around the world. So time zone helping. I was working, you know, 16, 17 hours a day.

So like a done for you sales model essentially. Like.

Yeah. That they would generate the leads, send them to me, and I would call them and I was like using Skype and all kinds of random shit and I was just kind of like trying to figure it out. That grew really fast because there's a real need for it. And then I just started doing more and more and more sales. And then when I got into the high ticket world, I'd done, you know, eight years of full time selling.

And the difference for people who don't know, like high ticket sales essentially just means you're. You're selling an expensive product.

You're selling air. Yeah. You're selling information. Right. Which is like valuable information, but the value of which is completely subjective. Yeah. And. And based on somebody implementing it and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, you got a $30,000 business coaching package where you're going to get access to a course, a PDF and you know, a good mindset. Right. So, you know, you learn how to sell that and it's. Although it's valuable because you can get tremendous returns from it. Like, you know, I paid my sales coach like the first schedule. I paid him 40,000 bucks. I had 50 grand in the bank and I remember my wife going to me go, where the fuck's our money going? And I was like, oh, I gave it to this dude named Jeremy. I feel like it's gonna work out just like, all right, you seem good at this.

It worked out all right.

Yeah, it worked out.

Implementation though.

Yeah, you got to do it. But you know, like all that, it's just about time and, you know, longevity and seeing the patterns and being able to figure it out to get really good at sales. But you know, most of the time you can be a really successful sales rep by being pretty dog shit on the phone. You can just like hustle the living bejesus.

Just be consistent, Just do the work.

Eight at work, eight hours a day. Like it's revolutionary shit. But that's one of the things. You can make a shitload of money in sales, even if you're not super gifted, if you are just willing to work a full day.

Because the difference between sales, I suppose, and other roles is that if you work eight hours a day in your plumbing gig or as a, you know, person in the defense force, you get paid for eight hours a Day, regardless if you sit down and do nothing or you are a hustler.

Yeah.

Where in a sales world you're paid essentially on outcome. You might get a small base, but, yeah, you're not going to make much money if you do nothing. And generally, if you do nothing, you know, you're not getting any actions or doing any actions.

It's a high risk, high reward. Yeah. Right. And so. And for me, I've always turned bases down. One of the first sales gig I ever like, I didn't get it. And so I remember I just hounded the guy, and I was like, hey, how much? I ended up after, like, two weeks of, like, me hounding this dude. I said, how much do you pay for a sales call? He said, 400 bucks. I said, I'll give you $400 for everyone. I don't close. And he was like, well, I mean, that's all right.

How's that for an irresistible offer?

Yeah. And it was a $2,000 commission for a $30,000 sale. I made six in the first week.

So you're essentially working out, like, if I close one that pays for five that I don't close.

Yeah, yeah. And I wasn't planning on not closing anyway, so. Right. So I was like, I made six sales and made $12,000 commission the first week. And I was like, oh, oh, shit, this is different.

Yeah.

Because I was used to selling fitness programs, you know, making 50 bucks a sale.

How did you make the transition, though? Like, to go from being in the defense force to then going straight into sales? Like, what did that look like?

It was a PT component. Right. So I kind of learned, you know, the PT molded. I was sort of selling full time before I realized I was a sales rep. Like, I just kind of fell into that role because nobody was doing it in the company. And I was like, someone's got to fucking be the dude who's responsible for this. And I was like, it might as well be me.

So essentially, like, to think about it in. In a way, if you're a mechanic, for example, you take your car into the mechanic shop, the mechanic obviously fixes your car, but they also have then a sales portion of their role, which is like, hey, there's a horn in your Johnson rod.

Yeah. You got to replace the whole engine.

That's the sales portion of the role, which is essentially you in pt. Right. Like, you were actually training people. And then, you know, I'm assuming there was the upsells to the supplements and the fucking. Hey, you should. You should train Five times a week instead of three times a week, you.

Just learned that you actually get like, you know, it's like with exercise, if you do it, it'll work. I don't care what you do. If you just move more and like eat healthier, you'll be a healthier, fitter person. Yeah. And so it's why, like, people who shit on fitness enforce is like, man, how many people you helping, right? Like with your fucking four clients down at Clovelly beach, motherfucker. Yeah. I mean, like, you fucking change in the world, dude.

It's true.

But you know how to Olympic lift. Well done to you youu know, and so if you're looking at like helping the the most amount of people, if you can have a small impact on those people and just go like, hey, how about you just stop drinking yourself to death every weekend? Be like, that's a huge positive. So sales will get you a lot further in that than what being a really skilled coach will. Because people don't need a highly skilled coach for anything. 90% of the time. They just need someone who's like, they respect enough to actually start doing some things, to take action and. Yeah, exactly. And so sales is that transition from doing nothing to doing something. And that's kind of. I like that role. It's a good place to be. Like, I'm not going to pretend like I'm here to fucking help and change. It was no right. But I like doing that part. It's a good catalyst.

Getting someone out of essentially doing nothing to taking action. And then the fulfillment part of that then goes on to someone else. Tell the story that you told us at retreat. Around, around. You were selling in the gyms. And it's like the thing that changed the mindset of like, you. You met with this person.

It's sort of. I was always thought sales was a bit icky, you know. And I remember this big fat dude came in and he was like, I don't know, he's like 100, he's like 50 kilos overweight. And he's telling me, he's like, I need to lose weight. And I was like, yeah, sweet. You need this much weight loss gonna cost this much money. And he sort of gave me. He's like, oh, I just gotta go and like work out the times. And I was like, mate, the time was like 10, 40 kilos a gun. That was the time. Now it's like, let's do this, you know? And he was sort of like, oh, yep, yep, sweet. I'll get Back to you, and I'm gonna go think about it. And all he thought about was fucking donuts, right?

He left there and he's like, fuck that guy.

And I saw him like six months later, and the dude was like 70 kilos overweight. And I was like, oh, that was just my inability, because that person had shown the glimmer of motivation because he was there. He was there. Yeah. And it was like my job was to create the argument of, hey, how about you do something to not die as fast, right? You get one life. Like, let's. Let's live at champ, right? And I couldn't do that. So I was like, ah, fuck me. Like, that's. That's on me. That dude has 20 habits.

That 20 kilos is my 20 kilos, you know, that he put on exactly.

Like, that's my habit because, like, I was a fat kid, right? I was told it was my genetics and all that kind of stuff and all these other things, like my parents sort of still believe to this day, right? Then they point to the auntie that's not related to me by blood, right? It's all the, you know, but like, they do you sort of tell yourself stories, right? And so I was like, oh, that's on me. And so I was like, I need to get better at convincing these people. And. And me showing off my, you know, my technical prowess with training is not going to do that because that's not ultimately, like, what matters to them. And so I started going down the road of I want to get better at sales and convincing people to actually start and influence, Right, Yeah, influencing people.

And that's. I think what you said before around, like, sales generally is looked as like, fucking the sleazy salesperson, right? Like the car salesman, the real estate agent, whatever it is. But I think in that example that that person genuinely needed someone to be like, hey, you're a fat motherfucker, or whatever it is. You need to do something, because if you don't, the outcome is death before 50.

Yeah. And I think especially with something like fitness is a good place to start. Because, man, I'd love people to argue with me in the comments. But, like, you know, there is no.

They will.

There's no downside to going to the gym and eating a bit healthier. You know, you can argue sales coaching programs, you can argue whatever. Like, you know, and I don't think people should use sleazy sales tactics, but I think one of the best things about sales is you never have to lie. And it's like, state the facts, tell the truth. It's a very freeing experience. And I like that because I'm very forthright and I tell the truth. And if people like it, fantastic. And I think you present it in a, in a respectful way. But I think if someone is doing something that is antithetical to what they want, you know, then you should tell them and they should have the opportunity to either, oh, oh, course, correct, or like, well, fuck it. And then it's like, well, you really don't want it anyway.

That's right.

So at least admit to yourself that you don't want it. Or you're like, you want to want it and you haven't hit rock bottom because you have to touch the oven to know it's hot.

What are you or what have you seen? The best transitions from careers into sales are because you've worked with fucking, I don't know, thousands and thousands of salespeople around.

Right. Fitness is a good one.

Right?

Anything door to door. Anything where you have a high, a high touch point with people. Right.

So communication, style of role.

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, customer service, you know, where you have to deal with complaints all the time. And yeah, it's sort of like, you know, I think one of the things that makes sales difficult for people is I think this day and age, you know, I sound like the old guy, is there's a distinct lack of human to human communication. And like, like, I didn't. I never had a dating app. I met my wife. We've been together for 16 years. Right, right. And so she was 21, I was 25. There was no dating apps or nothing. And when I went out.

Where'd you meet?

We met at, at a course. At the, at the, at the PT course.

That's it.

Yeah. I stood up day one and said I was, I was in the army still. I was getting out. And that was at the course that I was doing. I said, hey, my name is Matt. I'm a special forces sniper. And yes, ladies, I am single. Right.

Sales.

Right there. Right? Sales. Smoking hot blonde was like, what's going on? And we went on our first date three days later.

Right.

And we've been, we've been together ever since. And so, you know, I think if you don't, you know, from what I can see and like, I see a lot of, like, you know, young salespeople and they just don't know how to speak to people. And that's the biggest barrier. And I think that's also the biggest thing that can, like, Change your life the most is going through that process and learning how to speak to people and. And having sort of weird conversations.

It is true. Like, when you speak to a lot of people these days is, like, in person, actually meet them. It's, like, really awkward.

Oh, they're horrific.

Yeah.

You know, like, what do I do with my hands? They don't look at you, and they also. They can't read what's happening, you know, And I think a lot of that's because dating apps, like, that's what's what I think, because I used to go out and like. Like, put myself out there and be.

Like, hey, I'm Matt. Yeah, I'm a sniper. Ah, yes. I am single.

Yeah.

Before you meet your wife, always.

Exactly. Yeah. And so. But I just, you know, I used to go over, you know, it's so funny. Guys just don't know how to approach women. They don't know how to, you know, they don't know how to present themselves as well. They don't know how to, like, talk to somebody. They don't know how to network. Like, I'm sure, like, when you go to an event like networking, you're probably good at it, right? You got there, you talk to people.

You know, and you just ask questions like, hey, I'm Jack. What do you do?

Exactly. But you actually have to, like, you actually, there's an element of, like, I'm gonna reach out. And so vulnerability is like a handshake. You only get it if you give it. You have to reach out, go, hey, I'll be vulnerable. And that's like, I'll tell you information that you don't know about me. Because there's like a. There can be a power dynamic thing where now I know info about you that you don't know about me. And that can be kind of a weird thing for some people.

It's very true.

Yeah. And. But I think, you know, and if you can learn sales and you can learn how to communicate yourself effectively, makes you a better parent, makes you a better partner. Like, my kids. Like, my kids are being taught. They're 6 and 9. If they want something and they come to me and they're like, I want this. And I go, that's not how you ask that.

So you're teaching them.

Oh, yeah.

Communication.

I go, well, I go, like, what do you want? They're like, I want this. And I'm like, okay, so how do you get it? Like, figure out the puzzle, you know, like, and. And communicate yourself in a way that you Know, makes me want. It. Makes me want to give it to you.

Have you seen that Chinese guy on. Maybe he's not Chinese, but he's like a Asian background fuck. What's his name? Will something. And is he all. He talks. No, he doesn't talk about.

Oh, yeah.

Is that what his name is?

I think it's. Yeah.

And he just talks about. Simply about communication. And he talks heavily about, like, people who have immigrated to. I think he's in Australia, isn't he?

Yeah. Yeah.

And how to, like, get out of their, you know, sort of slang that they have, you know, where, like, Chinese people sound different when they speak English to someone who's born in Australia.

And how to enunciate.

Yeah, it's incredible. It's incredible. And just the way that he talks.

Yes. Makes you very engaging. Yeah.

And he seems so intelligent when all he's doing is saying normal words, but makes the normal world sound so different.

Yeah. And just, like, how you present yourself and how you say things and people don't realize how incredibly influential intonation is. There's a great children's book called no Mr. Magoo, this is for you. Right. And it's the exact same thing. It just says, no, Mr. Magoo. No, no, Magoo, this is for you. Right. And it's like, magoo's the dog. And then it changes the punctuation, the bold and the spacing.

Right. So you can say the same thing.

And then it has a different picture, but you understand exactly what is being said by the picture and the intonation of the word, no, Magoo, this is for you. No, Magoo, this is for you. Right. And so just that intonation is like, oh, he was wondering if that was for him. This is for you. No, Magoo, this is for you. It's this one. And so it's small things like that. Like, if I ask you a question, like, well, Jack, like, why is that important to you now, though? Or if I go, oh, Jack, like, why? Why is that important to you now, though? That little change of intonation. I can predict how you'll answer it. And so I can sort of get you to answer things in ways that I want you to answer that's based on outcomes that I'm looking for without it seeming like I'm doing that. And that can seem very manipulative. And I guess if used in the wrong way, it definitely could be. But it's about being able to communicate yourself effectively. Because I want you to answer in terms of time frame. Why is that important to you now though. And so that slight pause because you grew up in a western society, you know, I'm placing the importance on the now. And so you're going to answer it. Well, you know, I've just been thinking about doing this for a while, you know, and so like people are highly influential, highly influenced in that state. And I think that to me is fascinating. And it means that you can go into a situation and you can understand how to communicate in a way where it makes sense to get the answers that you're looking for and get what you want. And even goes down to, you know, like hotel reception, you know, you call them helpful, label them as helpful. Labeling is a very effective tool. Oh, you've been so helpful. Thank you so much. You guys are so helpful. You come in the next day, hey, you guys have been so helpful. But can I ask a favor? Can I have a late checkout? Okay, Right. Like, because they want to maintain.

They want to be helpful.

Yeah, they want to be helpful, you know, and so it's all these little things that you can do to sort of influence your way through life. And there's lots of good people out there, you know, never split the difference guy.

Chris Vaughn was the first, first sales book I ever read.

Yeah, it's a great one. There's another one called like Oren Clough, Flip the Script, who does a lot of like large similar.

Is it?

Yeah, well, he talks about like, you know, like different ways of selling and different, you know, things around like creating hyper authority really quickly and little techniques that you can do where if you're going to explain something complicated, do it very fast. Right. Because the faster you do it, the easier it is for you. And then people will sit back and go, oh fuck, Jack knows what you know, and so like, oh, this is.

Such a. I don't even do that on purpose. I just talk really quickly. People are like, fuck that guy. Smart.

Yeah, well that's, that is the thing as well, you know, like pacing of what you talk about. Because if you talk naturally fast and then you slow down in certain points, you'll create an enormous effect of importance. And so like my normal talking speed is a lot faster than what I talk right now when I'm talking to, you know, people that I like, for example. Right. No, but if I'm, if I'm not like in a presentation, like if I'm. I talk really quickly, right. But in order to get my point across, I talk in a more kind of baseline speed so that if I talk faster or if I Talk slower. It has more of an effect.

And your tonality as well. Right? Like, that's one of the most important things.

Yeah. So like, if I want to sound more curious, I can just kind of. I just talk to the back of.

The throat up a little bit.

Hey man, how's it going? How are you today? You know, like, what have you been doing? But if I want to sound more concerned, it's like, hey man, how are you? Like, like, what have you been doing today?

Everything all right?

Everything okay. Right. You know, so you just talk a little bit from the bass and you can slow it down even more. You can go, hey man, how are you? Like, what have you been. What have you been doing today? And then it's sort of like, oh, like that's very off putting because it's very confusing as to what I mean.

And the way that you ask something like you're saying before you can say the exact same words.

Yeah.

But have different tonality. And what was you said it was, it was a different enunciation, a different intonation. Intonation.

Yeah, yeah. So like the intonation.

People who didn't finish school like me. What's that mean?

Yeah, so it's like the, like, you know, if you look at it like when you're writing it out, it'd be like the ellipses, you know, the three dots, like for the pausing. And then you might bold a word.

Right.

To put more emphasis on it. And so when I would tell people to write a script, for example, I write it like that because I want to be able to look at it and know exactly what I'm going to say. Because if I'm looking for patterns and sales and when you're dealing with people, the difficulty is that like everyone will answer differently, but different words. But they will answer in patterns. Like if I say, why is that important to you now though, the vast majority will answer with timeframe. So I have to be able to remove the words they use and look at the baseline of like, okay, they answered with timeframe. And I. But I need to be able to like ask everything the same way every time to find the pattern, which is predictability. That's the difficulty in sales. And once you can do that and what I did when I was like learning when I was getting into high ticket sales and I started making like 15k a month, 20k a month. I was $100,000 a month commission. Only sales rep. Right. One of very few in the space that's ever achieved that over a decent period of time. And I went through every single line in my script over the course of about six months. And I had the intonation perfect for every line.

And that would have come from the detail orientated style of work being sniper, right?

Yeah. Because I was. I sort of realized like, oh, I've got an opportunity here. So I was getting paid 2,000 a sale, which is like ridiculous. I'd never seen money like that before. I mean, the most money I ever made as a PT was I probably made 200 as a PT.

Right.

You know what I mean? But then like when I was doing the gym stuff, I was making like 80 because it was like, you know, for the fucking equity play type thing, which never ended up happening.

So when you left, when you left the Defense Force, you took a step down in income.

Well, I mean, so I took a year off to sort of learn how to be a human again. And then I became a PT and I was like pretty successful pt. I was probably making the same money as a pt, but then when I opened the gym. Gyms, you sort of like, you know that business owner mode where you're like, I make no money in exchange for something that may or may not ever happen. So I did that for a long time, got myself into debt, you know, it cost me like 90, 000 of my money on an 18 overdraft when I. When I opened the gym. That took me a long time to climb out of that hole. Yeah. And then when I left the gyms, I sort of just walked away from them. I was still in debt from them. And I remember this was like, this was probably seven years ago. Right.

So not that long ago.

It wasn't that long ago. Yeah, yeah. Like 2018. And me and my wife, we had 4,000 in the bank and our rent was six. Right. Which is like not even a crazy. It was like a. It was like a half decent house in Kensington. Yeah. Right. And it was like pretty small.

That's where the Kensington connection comes from.

Yeah. You live there? Yeah, there was tons. Yeah, we have tons of people over there. And so my wife was pregnant with my second and we were like super broke. Like so broke that we sold a car and didn't pay off the finance. Right. Like there's a couple months there where I was like, yeah, I mean, car still around?

Yeah, we love the car. I just don't drive it anymore because.

It'S like a personal on it anyway. And so I was like, like really? And I was just. I remember just like having this fucking conversation with this dude because I Was like, this is just before I left the gyms. And I was like, man, next year is going to be the fucking year. And like, but with the gyms. And he was saying the same thing. And I remember like having this, oh, I've had this conversation four times.

She never comes.

And I was like, oh, I do it now. And from like that moment on I was like, oh, I do it now. Everything changed. I was like, I do everything now and I do it super aggressively. And like, I will refuse to not, I would refuse to be in the position I'm in right now. And that position was terrifying. I had a two year old, my wife was pregnant, eight months pregnant. I had $4,000 total. I had no job because I just quit. Right. No income. And I had.

And rent was due.

And rent was due. And I was like. And I had a car that I sold that I didn't pay off. Right. So it was grim.

A lot of people would be in a similar position.

Yeah.

Like it's not, it's not unusual position.

And so I called everyone that I knew that owned a gym. Everyone. Because I've been a gym owner for a long time. So I like, I knew people. And I was like, hey, I'll do your sales. I was $375 a week base. Right, right. And $25 a sale.

Just selling memberships essentially.

Yeah. And so I signed up like six gyms and I just started calling the living fuck out of everybody. And then I was like, okay. And so then I was like, well, I've maxed out my times in Australia, I need more work. So I was like, sweet Jim's in the U.S. i called friends, everyone.

So essentially like you're working say 8 till 5 or 8 till 6 in Australia.

And then I was working till like midnight in the U.S. yeah, yeah. And then UK as well. So because the time zone. So I was doing the sales for like maybe eight different gyms myself. Right. And I was doing like two hours a day per gym, making about two to three sales per day per gym. I was pretty good at it. I could do a sale in 15 minutes and so I just did that. And then that got me sort of out of a hole. I then we then moved. I bought my parents house off them at like an arm's length transaction. So basically it was 710,000 for a giant house in Perth. Right. You know what I mean? It was a thousand square meter block.

Pretty close to Kensington.

Yeah, yeah. And so because we just couldn't afford Sydney, couldn't afford it and so managed to get like a second tier lender. It was arm's land. So my parents were like, basically they funded the deposit. Yeah. And. And so I bought it off them. And then from there that gave them. That freed them up to then downsize a bit.

Yeah.

And then I had a private mortgage with them. And then from there that sort of gave me the freedom to where my bills were significantly reduced. I had a house, so I was in the market. So I was like, sweet. This sort of ticks a few boxes. Yeah. And it gave me the freedom to work 18 hours a day and sort of not have the enormous financial stress of just having to pay bills because I like, I figured I could make enough money to get that done. Maybe not paid tax, you know what I mean, on time, but I could figure that out. And then over the course of the year, people anyway. Yeah.

Yeah.

They're super, super awesome people. Love you. And. And so. And then from there, over the course of the next year, I got the business to about 200,000amonth.

And this was essentially just you doing done for you. Sales for other gyms.

Yeah, Well, I transitioned out of the gyms about halfway through that. After that guy paid me $12,000 for a week. I fired every gym immediately. Right. And I was like, now I do this. And I went to high ticket sales. And that's where I started sort of doing that. And I. That's when I hired Jeremy as a sales coach. And then he asked me, is Jeremy your sales coach? Yeah, he's the guy gave 40 grand.

You know, you said, jeremy, I wasn't gonna ask the question, but there you go.

Yeah. And so. And then he asked me to be his sales guy. And I was like, yep. And then he asked me to be CEO and then he asked me to be a business partner. And by the time that happened, SalesSniper was doing a million a month, which.

Was the business that you ended up doing before.

Yeah. And Sales Sniper kept going. Sales Sniper got up to about two and a half million a month.

Right.

And at its peak, between seventh level and Sales Sniper is about five or six mil a month between the two of them.

It's a big operation.

Big operation. And I was running both. I was still like the measure of main sales guy on Sales Sniper, selling all the accounts and then transitioned out and sort of focused on seventh level and then sold that back to Jeremy at the end of 23 and then started the dialer of which we use. Yeah.

Dialer IO connect rates through the roof.

Through the Roof, you guys are 87% for the month.

So the transition from broke, living in Kensington, sold the car to, you know, multimillion dollar a month business, it was.

Relatively short couple years.

Like, yeah, four or five years. And I guess that's the power of sales, right? Or a business in which you are in control of the outcome. The more you put in, the more you get.

Well, it was sales. It was because, like, you know, so like. Because I was good at sales and I. But I was only good at sales because I worked harder than all the other sales reps. And it would have.

Been a, like, element of desperation, right?

Oh, man.

When you got no money, you're like, what the fuck?

I mean, I knew I could do hard things. Like, I was special operations. I was like, I know that if I. Like my wife said to me, when. When I paid $40,000 to Jeremy, she was like, I know that whatever you do, if you do it 100%, you'll kill it. So go. She just goes, do whatever you need to do and I'll take care of the rest. And so I was like, sweet. She was like, I trust you. And I was like, okay, cool. Like, that's all I need. My wife, trust me, like, she's got this. She's got the kids. Like, I will. And I was like, sweetie, I'm gonna work 18 hours a day for the next year. And you just have to be okay with that. And she's like, don't worry, I got you. And we, we talked about it. We had the conversation. And so I worked literally 18 hours a day. I would, I. I would. I would work until about midnight, 1am and then I would, like wake up, like, you know, five or six. And then I would start work again. And then I'd have like an hour, hour and a half break in the middle of the day, have a sleep, have some food, get back into it. And then I would take like from 5 to 7 off. And that's when I would, like, top of the kids. The kids. Yeah. I would get back in the office at 7, work till midnight, 1am, go to bed.

And that was doing Coles calls in another time zone, essentially.

Yeah. Because I was doing stuff all over the world. And I said, if I do this right, I think that I can put such. I think I can build so much brand momentum that, like, nobody will be able to stop me. And there was no competition in terms of, like, dudes who could do what I could do. And so I just kind of went for it and started doing content and talking about the things that I was doing. And then, you know, started getting outreach and I, you know, my first big client was Vince Del Monte, big OG in the fitness space. My next big client was Ryan Sirhan. So I ran his sales team for three years. And I'm friends with Ryan. Like, I mean, as much as you can be friends with, with Ryan. He's a busy guy. I mean, I talked to him two weeks ago right on the phone. And then when he comes to Australia, like we have dinner, you know. But I've worked with him for three years. He's a, you know, savage. Oh, mate. Like when I is when I realized I'll never be as wealthy as him was when I started, when I met him, I was like, oh, I'm not willing to do that. Like that's, you can have that. Like, that's crazy. But he's a savage. He's a great dude. And then I started getting like, you know, when you're good at sales, people look at you an atm.

Because when you're running a business, the reality is sales is the most important thing. I mean, marketing brings in leads to sell.

Yeah.

But without sales, you don't have an organization. Whether you have a sales team or whether you have a product that, you know, sells itself essentially through a click of a button without it. It's the lifeblood of a business.

Yeah. And so I just ended up getting phone calls from everyone, like everyone in that sort of space. You know, I've worked with, I've worked with the Hormozies, I've worked with Brunson and Bradley and all these dudes. And I've sort of looked at things in backends and fixed things and sort of work sales. Because, you know, I've done a lot more sales than most people because I was a full time rep for a long time. Yeah. And not many dudes who are in that sort of industry wherever actually really a full time rep, they sort of might have done it for a year or two and then transition teaching, running.

The business or teaching.

Yeah, exactly. Right. So it's interesting.

So if you were, you know, the person today who I always harp on, grow your income, grow your income, Grow your income. You grew your income, you know, to many millions a month. What's the transition look like if you aren't a guy that's in fitness, for example, or someone who's got the sales background? Like I was in construction, I wanted to start a business. But the transition to that business was to become essentially a salesperson. I was a buyer's agent had to sell the services.

That is the best way to do it. Yeah.

So. So to transition out of your role into a business where.

Yeah.

Or a role where you're doing some selling.

Yeah. I think if you can learn on the job, I think it's fantastic. So if you can. And you're going to have to be the guy doing the sales for a while and so you might as well learn that skill set. Yeah. Doesn't mean you have to go deep. I don't think anyone should. You need to go deep in the matrix on selling unless you're going to be a full time sales guy. But if you're going to be the sales guy for your business, you will eventually transition out of that. So you need to be good enough.

To be able to teach people when they come in.

Exactly. Yeah. And so I think that going into a business that's like the business of which you want to run because, you know, you want to know if you like it first and foremost. If you don't like, it's going to be very difficult. And then from there just like be excellent. And being excellent doesn't mean that you start off getting an amazing outcome. It means that you start off doing all the activities and doing the things required of someone who is excellent. You know, like Steph Curry is Steph Curry because he was willing to be Steph Curry before, that was cool, you know, and then continue that activity. And I think like the, you know, the reason why, you know, it's probably a bit of a controversial take, but most people are not successful just because they just don't give a fuck enough to be that. And it's, it's.

The life isn't shit enough to take the action to get out of that shit position. Right.

Yeah. And like, you know, I understand that like some people are born on third base and they hit a home run, it's a bit easier, Right. We still gotta hit a home run, you know, so you still have to do the action required. You still got to get up to the plate and you gotta swing. Yeah. You know, and I think a lot of people, from what I can see, it's like they think they have more time than what they do. And my best friend died in 2010 in a helicopter crash. His name's Benjamin Chuck. And I remember like that rocked me to the core because like I remember getting the phone calls in Westfield and I like collapsed, right. Because I was like, it was just, you know, you're in your 20s and yeah, I've had people die before because the military. But, like, when he died, it was really. It really affected me because it was.

Sort of like the closest person.

Yeah. Like, I lived with him for four or five years. Yeah. You know, and then I got a phone call. He goes over to the gang. We had a fucking huge argument, like fucking, you know, young dudes do. And then he died. And I never got a chance to make it right. And that was shit. And it sat with me for a long time. And I remember, you know, like, he was a great dude and he didn't get a chance to keep going. And I was like, oh, I don't want to be a piece of shit. And it was like, if you think you have time, the reality is you really don't. You can. I can walk out of here today and get hit by a bus, like so.

And they fucking drive faster.

They do. This is a dangerous place. Right? It's the fucking streets of Pato, mate.

Yeah.

I mean. Right, right. And, you know, I think people are sort of throwing this opportunity away. You know, there's just the. The. The sheer stats of you even being alive are incredibly low. And it sounds like a. Like a, you know, trope or whatever at this point, but it really is.

You know, I think Gary V. Talked about it. They worked out it was like 11 in 400 trillion or something.

You don't get a second go. I mean, listen, maybe you're Hindi and you think you do whatever, right? But, like, you, like, in your consciousness, you don't. Like, you don't get round two. So if you're, like, waiting for something, like, I just don't know what you're waiting for. Like, are you waiting for the universe to present the opportunity like they already have, you know?

Yeah.

Like, the doors are unlocked, mate. You just kind of got to go through them. And it is hard and you probably won't succeed the first few times, but, you know, and I'm not saying that everyone can go out there and be a fucking billionaire, but you can. And success, I think, is a, you know, is a weird metric because, like, if you wanted to be the world's greatest father, like, that would be a huge success, you know, but you have to pick a thing that you want to be good at, especially men, I think, because, like, we're so driven by purpose, you know, and the younger you.

Do it, the easier it is because the less life baggage you have.

Yeah, you can take swings.

Literally.

Yeah. You know, like, I had to take a swing with a child, a pregnant wife, you know, debt and, you know, but when I wanted to be special operations, I just told everyone to go fuck themselves. And like, I was like, I'm not like, I remember I would like speak to girls and like, I was like, oh, I don't one of girlfriend. I was like, I am single and a sniper, but oh, no, it's just like, I was like, I have courses to do and you're not as important as that. So like, I have a singular focus and nothing else matters. I have no obligations to anyone.

Pretty hard to say that when you got a wife and a kid, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Okay.

I got a quartermate, dude. You know, and so you can, you can take these swings and you can do things that I think are pretty cool. And if you just realize that, like, you're probably going to die and it's probably like, you know, going to be sooner than what you think, you know, because everyone thinks they're going to live forever, you know, and with my high level of income and Advanced Modern Sciences, 245, 250 is possible.

Right, but let's hope.

Yeah, right.

But I mean, those fucking bosses, that's really the only thing they'll get you.

Exactly right. But yeah, so, you know, just do shit. And I think even if, you know, you swing and you miss, at least you had a swing.

And the best thing about sales as well is that literally transfers into everything else, you know, like, because sales is really just the transfer of. Of confidence and it's. And it's communication, like you said.

Yeah.

Which then does go into starting your own business, which then does go into, you know, heading up someone else's organization, for example.

Exactly.

So it opens up the doors to so many other things.

Yeah. And I think, you know, and there is no university degree for sales. There is no formal education. There's no barrier of entry. You can be literally anyone. And I've got. I've had dudes with crazy thick accents and, you know, and, you know, sell in English and do really, really well. And it's really just a case of anyone can do it. There is not a single person. If you have an IQ over 85, you'll be totally fine. If you have an IQ under 85, like, you can't really be taught anything. That's like what the military deems is like. You can't be taught basic processes.

Really.

It's more of a liability than anything else.

How do we. How do we track that as like when we. When we're employing people?

I mean, you'll know you'll know, right? Like lovely, right? No, but it's also quite rare under 85. But you know, if you have a, you know, and you don't have to be a people person, you don't have to have the gift of the gab. If anything, those people sort of struggle and like to get past certain, you know, levels of salesdom because they, you know, they can, they try and talk their way around it, but it's not really how it works.

Yeah.

And so, you know, it's a process driven activity that anyone can learn. And it makes you better at literally everything in life from being a parent to being a partner, because you can actually communicate yourself well. You can ask curious questions. You can use your tonality to like not sound like you're angry when you're like, okay, like what, what do you mean by that? Like where, like where's that coming from? So you can actually like.

And your partner goes, well, you pissed off?

Yeah.

You angry about. And you have an argument. I didn't want to have an argument.

Yeah. And so, you know, it just makes it everything better. And I think the transition from that into any other field is positive. And if you meet, you know, most CEOs came from sales. You know, most, most business owners and entrepreneurs had sales roles. And the reason for that is, you know, you learn that rejection is not rejection. If someone doesn't buy something off you, it is not a value judgment on you as a human. It said they just didn't want to give the business that you work for money. That's, that's, that's the long and the short of it. And then you realize that people no show. It's like, it's not personal. So you stop taking.

It's like the guy, you use that example of the day. It's like when the guy cuts you off in traffic. Does the guy hate you or is he just randomly cutting someone off in traffic?

Yeah. What if you have to take a shit? You know, like, man, you ready to take a shit in the car? Is stressful, bro, I'll cut the shit out of anybody, but they don't even know.

As humans, we take things personally. Like everything, right? We try to give everything a meaning. When it's like things just happen.

Yeah, things just happen.

And the awesome thing about sales is there is just an unlimited amount of opportunity out there.

Oh man, it's crazy and you know it is. If you're good at sales, you're recession proof. There is no economic environment in which you cannot thrive because everything always needs to Be sold.

There is something that you can sell.

Exactly. And also, like, if you're good at sales, you are always surrounded by opportunity because it is impossible to hide. If you are someone who can make a business money, they will find you. Yeah. Like, there's no goat. NBA player that's not in the NBA. There's not some dude in the backwoods of Queensland who's just like, Michael Jordan 2.0, but no one's heard of him. It just. It's not. It's not happening.

Especially these days with social media.

Yeah. You know, and so. And you can. It's so easy to market yourself. You know, you've done it brilliantly and, like, I've done it on a smaller scale. And it's like, all you have to do is say the things you're doing. And if you say the things you're doing for long enough, people can make a judgment of whether you're an idiot or whether you're good at what you do.

And then either way. Yeah, they both make you money.

Exactly. Right. You know, the idiots. You know, whatever. It's fine. People who hate on social media is fascinating to me because, like, I just can't imagine the. I just can't imagine being fucked up. I. Could you imagine being fucked? Like, leaving, like, a negative comment.

I had. I did a live last night and 99.9% of the comments were great. But then you just get people in there who will this. They just say the dumbest shit.

Yeah.

Like, it's amazing. In short, it's like, fuck you.

Yeah.

It's like, bro, like, what are you doing? Yeah, surely you got shit to be doing.

You know, I've started like, I'll just.

Like, I've seen you recently replying to people.

It refined to people.

Yeah.

I'd be like, all right, you want to go? Some real estate agent in Queensland, right. Said, you posted on my reel, this is retarded. And I was like, oh, first of all, I love to see this kind of bullying coming back. I'm all about it. Second of all, game on, motherfucker. Let's see if you can last. So I went in and commented on, like, every photo. This is retarded, right? And I was like, I will not block you. I will not delete a comment. Say whatever you want. You can't say anything to me. I haven't said six digits in front of a mirror, motherfucker.

I can't.

No one hates me more than me, right? So it's like just. Just, you know, But I like I like calling people out. And when I sell dollar, I'll be even worse.

The worst.

Right. I'll be the worst.

Rich, arrogant and go to sales. Yeah.

And then I think, you know, and. And sales is. It's a lot of fun. And then you can transition to things like property and you can actually do things that build wealth, you know, because income only gets you so far.

Yeah.

You know, like wealth building strategies are, you know, I think it's one of the things that, like when I speak to like young entrepreneurs the most, I'm like, what are you doing with your money? And they're like, oh, Lambo. Cool. Good luck with that, dude. You know, because you got into real.

Estate early like you. You obviously.

Yeah, I bought an apartment, which is probably a mistake, but like gave it a crack when I was like 22. Right. You know, and did nothing with it for. Had it for years, Sold it and then, you know, made it, made a bit of money, but nothing like.

Yeah.

And then bought a property in Perth and then like I did that up. So you. Well, no, like my cousin's a builder over there, so he sort of did some renovations.

Sales by day.

Yeah.

Trading by night.

Yeah, yeah. Like, I mean we rendered it and we modernized it and we did some Renault's inside, stuff like that. So we made a couple hundred grand on that and so we sold that and then we came over to Sydney and it was like impossible to find a place. This is like sort of 2021 when it was like madness.

Booming.

Yeah, like madness.

And then we rent especially coming from Perth too, right?

Oh, dude. We lived in the Maritime for four months where we couldn't get a rental. We're coming over here to buy. Couldn't buy anything or rent anything.

Dead set. Oh, Bona Junction, dude.

It was crazy. Yeah. So we ended up getting a place for rent in. In Walara.

Yeah.

And then from there went down, sold this house in Double Bay. They wanted way too much. They wanted like 10 mil for it. And I was like, no way. Like, no one's stupid enough to pay that. So we went to the auction and no one bid. So I went to the real estate agent was Delane, right. And I was like, I'll rent it. She was like, what? And I was like, I'll rent it for two years. And then sting me, sting me in two years. Like, just rail me. I'll be in love with the place. Rail me that. She was like, deal. So, yeah, so rented it and then like six months later just started offering as a tenant. Yeah.

Didn't sell. You rented the property then? Yeah, And I was like, rent to buy arrangement.

Yeah. And I was like, I just started offering, I started offering, offered 8.7. They wanted 10. I was like, 8.7. And they were like, no. And I was like, 8.7. No, I was like, 8.7. And the guy was a Chinese buyer, right. And this is when the Chinese government was hitting people into like camps and.

Not taking your cash out of the country. Yeah, yeah.

And I was like, I was like sitting in of front emails of like articles of people being taken and. Right. And, and, and, and, and, and, and like, eventually they said yes and so bought it. And then we got an offer, like, so sort of, sort of having a look around because I know we got it at a decent deal, right? And then a house on. Two houses on our street sold. And I was like, my houses are bigger than them. And I was like. So I called Delane. I was like, what are you. The house is worth? And she was like, oh, I can get a buyer for that. She was like, what do you want? I was like. I was like, oh, you know, if I can make a million bucks, I'll be a happy man. She goes like, leave it with me. And so, yeah, she was like, yep, sweet, man. She sold it in like four days. There you go.

Now we're changing her locals.

Yeah, well, not yet. So then we. And then I use that. And then when we're like looking all over, sort of, you know, Ranwick and Clavelli and Bronte and. Because like, Double Bay is great, but my. Fuck me, mate. You pay a. This is a tax.

The double pay tax, right? Double pay. Double. What do they say? Double bay, double pay.

Yeah, and it's a great place to live, but like, it. I work from home, you know, I just sort of like do my thing and my wife like half her shits over there anyway. So we're just like, oh man, like I could have a half. I could have less than half the mortgage and I could have a bigger house with a pool and all that kind of stuff.

So less than a five K's away. Six K's away.

Yeah, exactly. So we're like, this seems like a really smart adult move. Yeah, right. And so we did that and then, you know, went through and put an offer on a house. And I feel sorry for these poor fucks that were bidding against us because, like, like I was talking to the agent and I was like, mate, I'm buying the house. And he was like, what's your Best and final. I was like, I was like, dude, just tell me when they come in best dressed and then I'll beat it and then we can be done with this. So it was an interesting situation because these poor fuckers were like, we've got calling up their family and trying to get this an extra 20 grand. I said, mate, just tell them to stop. Like they're not going to win. Just tell them, hey, the dude's got way more money than you. Just like, just give up type thing.

The best negotiation strategy. You have more money.

Yeah, exactly.

Literally.

I was like, you know, putting an extra 200 in this housemate makes no difference to me. You know, I was like, this is a significant financial downsize for me. You know, it's half the price. And so I was like, I'm putting half in cash anyway, like what I give a fuck. And so we bought the house and then we move in in like five or six months or something like that. But it's a beautiful house, big pool, really, really nice, you know, Needs a Renault, needs like an outsourced Renault because they fucking. It's got an ugly render on it, but it's a beautiful big house in a nice area, you know. And like.

So you've always been in real estate in some facet.

Yeah, exactly. Most of my wealth is in like managed funds. Yeah. Just because like that's just how I did it. Well, actually, to be honest, it's about 50. 50. Right. Because if I think of the house as wealth, which it definitely is, you know, having a ten million dollar house is probably considered wealth in some way. Right. But yeah, and then so like, you know, I think, do I think owning your own property in Sydney is the way to go? No, if I wasn't.

He's been following my content.

If I didn't have a wife and kids, I would rent 100 and I would have investment properties, you know, or have land or farmland or something like that.

Right?

Yeah. And then I have a combination. But you know, it's, it's crazy how, you know, when I, when you are good at sales, you sort of look at the world in a different way because you could see something that you want to buy, like an investment opportunity.

And you can go, how many sales do I need?

I could fucking figure that out. Yeah, yeah. You know, like I remember when I put the offer on the house, I was a million short on, on the, on the double bay house as a million short cash for the settlement. And I was like, oh, I feel that. I just was like, yeah, I'll figure that easy. And so I think we had like a four month settlement and I made a million cash.

Just reselling.

Yeah. Just sold shit, you know, I think.

I remember you telling me that you just went in an onslaught of. Because you were selling big clients at.

Yeah. Big. And I was just like, oh, I gotta do a, sell like two big ones and then a couple small ones. And I was like, I kind of broke it down that way. I was like, if I get a 500, I get a 250. Then I got a couple hundos and a few 50s. I was like, I can make a million bucks. I was like, there'll be a couple tax implications that I have to work out. But that's a 12 month problem.

That's right. That's next year. That's next financial year.

That's next financial year's problem. I was like, all I got to do and then, you know, so figured it out. Put the money down and you know, and then we made a million bucks profit in a year, tax free.

Which is the power of. That's the power.

You can't do that.

And real estate together.

Yeah. You can't do anything else. And if you can do both. And like I, I use my sales to negotiate both of those, you know, like just to like, well, what happens if it doesn't sell? Like, what happens if I keep offering you. And then I found another house and you know, like, what happens if this guy.

Then you lose your tenant and your people. Potential buyer.

Yeah. I was like, this is a problem. Surely it makes sense. And they're like, oh yeah, I'll present that to the owner. And you know, so sales is like a. Just a unique ability to be able to get the things that you want most of the time and then you can make money in any economic environment and then put that towards things that make you money. And if you do that right. Fuck, man. Like you don't need to make money for very long.

That's a never ending cycle as well, right? Yeah, that's the powerful thing about it.

Yeah. But like how much money do you need? Like if you have 10 million bucks in cash flowing assets, like properly cash flowing assets, like, like how much money can you make from that? It's a good amount. Like you don't really have to work for most people.

Yeah. I guess the issue is that lifestyle creep, right?

Yeah. Well, if you want a McLaren.

That's right.

But the dick, right.

The, the crazy thing is. And you're like, you're not like a One off story here. I like so many people have gone doing some shit average job that they earn average income in, then learning the skill of sales, then either going down the sales path all in. Or they then start their own business.

Yeah.

And their financial future changes in a very, very short period of time.

Yeah.

And if you use the income, it's.

Crazy how fast you can make money. And when you, if you're good at something. Yes. And when you realize that money making is a skill and money is a skill and there's a, there's a learning to it and you know, once you realize that there is a lot out there. Like, I mean, I live in Double Bay. Like, I mean, fuck, the average taxpayer pays 285,000 in income tax. That's taxpayer income tax, not taxable income income tax. Right.

Which is like, it's a triple the average income in Australia.

Yes. And then you also have like 18 year olds that are being cleared as, you know, taxpayers that are getting, you know, dad's money siphoned into them to mitigate the $38,000 of fucking tax free money. Like it does anything. Right. But so, you know, people have got money and there's a lot of money everywhere. And when you're in sales, you, you can just go and get it because there is always someone who wants to buy something.

And there's so much shit that happens that people don't realize. Right. There is so many at the moment. There's that narrative which is like the cost of living crisis and everything. So expensive inflation. But like the reality is we both live in the eastern suburbs.

Yeah. I don't have a college degree. I was in the army.

But there's no cost to living crisis that people. Where people have money. Right? Like, yeah, exactly in these areas, regardless if it's right or wrong.

But it's also where you want to live. Like my life is harder because I live in Double Bay. Yeah. Like so I have to work more. So I am giving myself. Like I'm not really, but you could say I'm giving myself a cost of living crisis because my mortgage is $45,000 a month. Yeah. Like, you know, I made that choice.

That's right. Before and after.

I can't complain. I could go and live in Bankstown. Yeah. I could have no place. Just buy a place. Cash. Yeah, yeah. Fucking love it. You know, I mean, but like that's not what I chose. So if I make a hundred thousand dollars a year and I choose to live in Coogee, seems like a fucking me Problem, mate.

Very true.

Like it just there Also, you can work from home in 99% of jobs now. No one's forced you to go in the city and there's public transport. So like, you know, the move further out and then work your way in. That's how it used to be. It used to be you bought in a shithole. It's just that now Paddington is no longer a shithole.

That's right.

It was 30 years ago. It was super dangerous. Like my father in law bought his first house in Paddington. It was a fucking dangerous suburb.

Can you believe people didn't want to live in Bondi before?

Yeah, I don't live there now. Too many fucking right?

But it's true. I say the same thing. It's like you have to act your way. Try like. And the unfortunate reality is in cities like Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne, the population is much more dense. Urban sprawl has happened. So where your parents grew up 50 years ago, you unfortunately can't grow up there now.

And when I was broke, I moved to Perth.

You made the sacrifice.

Like I, my wife didn't want to. And I went, hey, like, the only way that I don't go insane is I have to figure out a way to live within my means. And I need a chance to build up. And if I'm this stressed about money, there's no way I build a good business. Yeah, because you can't build a good business when you're stressing about cash.

You're worried about everything else.

Just think about short term and you never go long term. And so I was like, we need to move. And we made the sacrifice and we stayed there for a bit over a year. And the moment we had enough money to come back here and live very comfortably, we did.

And I think that, I mean, it's not just business focus, but like buying property. Exactly the same thing. It's like you make that short term sacrifice literally for 12 months. Yeah, it's not even a sacrifice. You're just having a change of lifestyle for 12 months. Yeah.

And like, you know, go and save.

Some money and then come back and for what?

You know, and like, it's one of the reasons why we're moving is because, you know, we made money. And so it's like, as much as I like saying I live in Double Bay because there is like an ego.

Feeling to that status. Yeah.

Like, mate, you know what, not paying a $45,000 a month mortgage will feel like a lot better than saying I live in Double Bay. I can Give you the red hot tip.

It's true.

Because, like, I make plenty of money, but fuck me, I could keep a lot more of it if I live somewhere else. Yeah. And, you know, I can do. There's no way that the capital growth of that house will outweigh what I can do in my business with that.

Money, with the cash flow.

Yeah. Because, like, my return on capital employed is like 300x on my business, you know, and so you can't beat that. And I'm good at sales, and if I put that money into getting people to talk to me about my business, I make that, you know, 100 fold over what I do in property at the moment.

And the current business now that you've transitioned into is dialer IO.

Yeah. Software. Yeah.

Which is essentially like a dialing system that you have extremely high connect rates based on the model that you use.

Yeah. So we have a lot of things, and I've caught a lot of leads in my day, and so was sick of the sort of solutions that were out there because I know they were just a bit subpar. And so figured out a way to kind of, you know, use a lot of different things and bit of knowledge to crack the code. Started a call center because I knew that I didn't want to pay to dev the whole thing. So we started a call center. And that was kind of a way of we problem solved the dialer for nine months before actual public launch through a call center. Like, call center did 300k month one. Right. So that was.

That was just calling someone else's leads.

Yeah. And that was like. I knew that I could get that. I knew that I could fill that out. We had 40 clients before we. Before we even started.

Right.

And then that 100% of that money went into dev, which is building the software. Yeah. And so we didn't need a front end. We just had a backend and it didn't work. So we were like having to problem solve, problem solve, problem solve. And after nine months, we had a good product. I sold the call center, put that money back into. Back in the dialer, and then, you know, we've been doing it for 18 months now, but we only launched the dialer five months ago.

I was gonna say it didn't feel like 18 months and five months.

Yeah, the dialer is five months ago. So it was end of. It was like December.

Yeah.

And we've done over a million so far. Profitable SaaS. Million bucks.

Five months.

So we're at like 3, 400,000amonth. Recurring solid, something like that. In five months with no ad spend. So just crashing. So in three years for a couple.

Hundred million, that's the goal, huh?

Yeah, yeah.

Sales all starts with sales, mate.

Without sales before we wrap.

If you're someone now getting started, whether in real estate, whether you're fucking car salesman, you're doing outbound calls, which is usually where people, sales people start. They start on shit leads. Outbound calls.

Good.

What are like the three to five key metrics that they need to be tracking daily? Like you were when you started.

Yeah, I would say you need to know. You work your way backwards, right. So you go, how much money do I want to make? How many sales does that constitute? And you can't go pie in the sky to get that many sales, how many people do I need to pitch to get that many pitches, how many people don't need to speak to. And then to speak to that many people, what do I have to do? So if it's calling leads, if it's, you know, walking the lot and going like, I have to approach 15 people a day. When I was a PT, I had a KPI to myself of how many people I had to cold approach at the gym because I knew that I would get told to fuck off or huh. That you know, and then there's only so many guys I could say had a small chest and they would actually like respond to it. You know, your chest should be bigger than that. Right.

That's the sociopath.

Exactly. And then just, just be diligent and then stay there until you hit it. That's the key. Because you have to hit it and don't accept. Not like, just stay there. Like if it means that you stay at the lot until 10pm and you're fucking shouting at people, you're on my car. Like, just do it. Because you have to become the person that does it. Yeah. And like, you know, once you do that then you realize, oh, it's actually not very difficult. Most people are fucking lazy.

As soon as you do it. Yeah, it's the same as KPIs inside of the business. As soon as you hit the KPI in a month. Yeah. Oh, fuck, that wasn't that hard. We know we have to do that. Then you said, yeah, the next KPI.

And then you just, you just keep doing that and then it becomes the habit and how you do things. And you know, once you start acting as a very successful person, I don't mean like fucking buying Rolexes in first class, but, but once you act as a person like, then you have to be it. You know, if you want to be a triathlete, you have to go running, swimming and riding. If you don't do that, you're never going to be a triathlete.

So mental masturbation.

Exactly. And, you know, real masturbation, that's key, right? Twice a day, every day.

Right. Gotta get those numbers up. Matt Rider. Thank you, brother. That was awesome.

Thanks, dude.

Appreciate it.

Good stuff.

This is general advice and does not take into consideration your objectives, situation or needs. You should consider if this advice is suitable to you or your circumstances. And please read any applicable PDFs beforehand. This is a Henderson podcast production.