Navigating The Shock Of Death with Rhea Mader

Welcome to the Clarity Corner where you'll discover how to unlock and express the most authentic version of you and realize that this is exactly what you were looking for the entire time. I'm your host and your coach, Megan Siemens. Now let's make some magic happen. Hello my friend. Welcome back to to the show. Today we have a conversation that I have been anticipating since the moment that I met this incredible human on a zoom gathering. And the moment that I heard her speak about the work that she does with End of Life, I knew that we had to have her on the show. And so today we have with us Rhea Matter, who is an empathetic and quietly wise soul who embraces the path of conscious living and conscious dying with grace and depth. Ria's experience spans various disciplines. She is a life coach, end of life practitioner, educator, energy worker, inter spiritual chaplain, intuitive meditation guide, and healing spaces designer. Drawing from a diverse skill set, she works with individuals and small groups through deep listening, healing practices, creative expression and restorative rest to welcome the fullness of life. Rhea is the creator of Apprenticeship with Death where she offers holistic education and training to others who feel called to hold sacred space for dying, death and grief. As a facilitator of conscious living and conscious dying, Ria's guidance leads meaningful transitions and transformations reaching beyond the realms of the living as she lovingly guides individuals to approach life and death with reverence for the sacredness you all this conversation today. Rhea gives so many gifts to us all through the lens of her design and what it looks like to truly live, embodied and aligned and fully alive. We talk about the fear of dying. We talk about navigating death with different belief systems. We talk about death as a teacher, grief as a teacher. We talk about regret and resentment and other conversations that come up on deathbeds and things to consider now to allow you to really consciously live. And if it's not obvious already, we are going to be talking a lot about death in this episode and we do talk about it in many lenses and we do touch on the some circumstances or experiences that each of us have had with death. And so I do just want to say if you are in a place of deep grief or you feel like you can't hold that conversation right now in this moment, this will always be here and you can come back to it. I will say this is such a needed conversation and I found myself wondering so many times in the episode, why aren't we having this conversation? More like if there's one thing we all know for Certain it is that at some point there will be death that touches our life, whether we lose others or the death of ourself, or grief in its many, many forms. And why don't we talk about this more? I had this thought so many times during our conversation today, and that among many other reasons, is why I think this is such an important episode for absolutely everyone. So get ready to have your heart expanded, your heart just torn open in many magical ways, and to hear from this incredible human that is Rhea, who in Human Design is a sacral manifesting generator with a 5:2 profile, which her manifesting energy. Her manifesting generator energy comes through in so many different aspects of the conversation. It was just giving me such a laugh. And just a quick refresher. We've had a few manifesting generators on the show now, but our manifesting generators, in case you're brand new to this, are those who are designed to be multi passionate, to have a. To be able to give themselves freedom for a quick pivot in. In life and to really respond to life. So find. Find the spark that ignites them and. And to allow themselves to be pulled towards it while shedding away those things that are a no. And I mean the lenses that Rhea constantly gives through that is just so incredible throughout this entire episode. She's also a 5 2. Our fives are our leaders. They're our problem solvers. They are here to just show up in space and just provide sol. Allow themselves to dip out. And the fact that we can experience that magic through our earwaves today is just so incredible. And that too is knowing things just because we know them. Because we know them. And you will hear so much wisdom come through from that lens. And in the end of the episode, we touch on Rhea's incarnation Cross, which gave her full body goosebumps because that was one of the things that stood out to her the most in her very first human design reading. And it was the thing that I could not look away from when I opened up her chart. And so we have an incredible conversation around that. And I feel like not only do you continue to pull more wisdom into your own perspective around living and around dying, but it also, I feel like, gives you the opportunity to start taking a peek into your own incarnation Cross. And how is it sparking you? How does it spark you? And if it's brand new to you, how could it spark. Spark you? So, without further ado, I mean, get ready for one of my favorite conversations that I've just had in life in general. I love that we got to bring some light to the topic of death. And we would love to hear from you. As always, after the episode, come find me either on Instagram eganseemmons or email infoeganseamans.com I would love to hear how this episode lands with you and I know Ria would love the same. And so all of her details are linked up in the show notes, including all of the resources that we talk about. So do head there after the episode. Send Ria some love for this incredible spotlight of a conversation. And if you are captivated by the work that she does and brings to the world, you'll find more connection points down there after the show as well. Okay, enjoy. Hello, Rhea, welcome to the show. I am so, so eager for this conversation.

I've been super excited about it too.

It's. It feels kind of strange because we're going to be talking all about death and it feels weird how eager or excited I've been all day. I've been like buzzing to have this conversation. I just feel like there's always incredible lessons when you're talking about death and dying. And at the same time, people, I feel like, have a lot of fear around it. So, I mean, we're kind of just diving right in here. But so much of your work is conscious living, conscious dying. Do you see that fear of death come up often in what you do?

Oh, yeah, definitely. And I. So I want to go back to what you started off by saying, like, I've been super excited to talk about this and that's how I felt even before. I was like, really an end of life worker, like in a professional way. I remember reaching out to my friend who was a chaplain at a senior living facility and he was, I was talking to him about what I wanted to do and he was like, oh, wow, cool. He was like, so next time somebody is transitioning, do you want me to call you and you can come and shadow with me? And I was like, yes. And I was like, so excited about it. And I told my husband, I said, hey, this is, you know, this is what's going on. And I was just like, like you said, I've just been so excited. And I told him that and I was like, so excited. And he was like, oh. And I'm like, okay, not, not as excited as I am. So, yes, it absolutely happens. Like, people have a lot of fear around death. And I'm like, if we look at fears, like, death is really one, one of the top ones. Right? Right up there with a spear of fear. Of spiders. So. Yeah, I mean, I think that it's rightfully so. Right. Like, nobody knows what's going to happen after we die. And even people who have had near death experiences and have come back to tell us like, what their experience was, there's a lot of variation even in that.

Yeah.

So there's a lot of unknown. And I think that it's. I don't know, it just feels like if I was to say to somebody, like, don't be afraid, that feels like kind of a false thing to say too. So.

Yeah.

And I think it's okay just to embrace that fear.

Yeah. So let's maybe like rewind a few steps even. Like, what got you interested in this topic at all? Like, what kind of fueled that eagerness or spark.

Yeah. So I am a highly sensitive person. I. I am an INFP. If you study like the, the 16 personalities, I'm just, I'm just wired to be very in tune. And I have. When prior to my work now, I was working as an interior architect and my focus was always on wellness design.

Yeah.

And in that I had kind of. I'd done some projects. One of them was in a senior living facility. And when I was working in there, I was almost equally as intrigued by what was happening inside the facility as I was like, the design that I was creating. So I thought that I was going to be doing that work for the rest of my life. Like, I loved it so much and I still do. I was actually talking to somebody earlier about how, like, I don't necessarily identify myself as an interior designer in terms of my work anymore, but it's still very much a part of me. And so I had come to this place where I was really having kind of a dark night as soul experience. Like, I was like, things just started feeling really hard. And I had learned a lot in my 10 years as an interior designer. And I was, I worked, I had my own business. And so I learned a lot. I learned a lot about myself. And I had come to this place where I was like, I just, I can't keep doing this. There was, it was a lot of stress. A lot of stress. And it kind of sounds funny to somebody who's not working in that world to think that interior design could be very stressful because it sounds like fun and, you know, let's go fluff some pillows, but it's not like that at all. And so I was just like, I need to step back and just kind of like reevaluate. I didn't know at that time I was. I was going to be leaving my business. I knew that I was stepping back and I took some time and I was just kind of like, I'm a very curious person. And so I was like, okay, like, what about this and what about that? And it had come to the end of the year in, I think it was 2017 and maybe 2018, and I had reached out to an astrologist and I said, I would love to have a reading. It was like the new year felt like a great time to do this.

And.

And I said I wanted to focus around career. She's like, okay. So she gets on the call with me and she's like, so based off your chart and like, you know, knows nothing about me. Kind of like, you know this, right? In human design, she knows nothing about me. And she's like, so based off your chart, I think you would be a great interior designer. And I was like, oh, my gosh, check. Okay. So I mean, and in some ways it was like, wow, confirmation. Like, I'm. I was on the right path, right? But she said, you have a lot of, like, skills that somebody would carry as like a counselor, psychologist and things like that. But she said at the, towards the end of the reading, you know, you have a lot of Scorpio in a certain part of your chart. She said, have you ever thought about being a death doula? And I was like, what the heck is a death doula? So that's really what sparked, sparked my curiosity down the path. But I had also had a lot of things happen in my life that, like, I had a stillborn when I was 25. And so, you know, there's those initiations that had happened in my life that had also probably led me down that path. But at that point then maybe I was like, ready, more like willing to open that door of like fear and go, huh, what's behind here?

Yeah. Oh, wow, I have full body. Goosebumps. What a great story. And already hearing elements of your human design as well in there. Like, first of all, of course you're like, oh, I still do the interior design and I'm also a death doula. And you also do like amazing, like, transformation coaching. Like, you just have that multi passionate energy of the manifesting generator and then hearing that response to life like it was the last thing in the conversation. But you felt that pull towards how magical that that is the moment that led you to where you are today and the amazing work that you get to. I can imagine that you have just incredible conversations in this Work and that there's so many lessons. I know as someone who I lost my brother in 2018, and the immense lessons that that has given me, they're endless. I think new lessons unfold every single day. Are there. I mean, I don't want to say, like, the top lessons you've learned, but are there, like, repeat lessons that you hear that just kind of solidify this amazing work you do?

You know, it's the one thing that really comes to my mind, and it's hard to say this to somebody who. And you know this. Right. That has experienced really intensely deep grief.

Yeah.

And that's the story that I know. Right. I know deep grief. But when I think about my work in end of life and what I have learned from being at bedside with people who are dying and having conversations with people with terminal illness and just witnessing people in that way, it makes me think of. So I'm a meditation teacher, and I studied with Lauren Roche. And one of the things that Lauren always said was meditation is like falling in love with life. And the moment I heard him say that, I was like, whoa. I just. I could just feel the energy just, like, totally ground inside of my being. It's like a real embodied moment. And every time he would say that, it would just, like, I don't know, just, like, have this little spark inside of me that was just, like, lit. Right. And I think that's what death has been for me. So death has taught me to really love life. And I think almost in this way that is, like, honoring and cherishing life and the. The simple parts of life. Like, I have a. I have a little sign on my desk that says turtle time. And I think it's like, for me, the reminder, and that's kind of become my motto for life, is that, like, just take that time. Like, you know, if you're crawling along with the turtle at or at this turtle pace, like, to stop and smell the roses. And I know that sounds clich, but I feel like that's what it's about.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't agree more. That was like, my brother was in hospice and end of his life, and we. I mean, spent hours talking, like, lessons and stories and all the things, and it always came back to, like, the moment and soak in the joy, and that is priority. At least it was for him. And it sounds like it's a common theme that you hear amongst everyone. You're kind of in space with.

Totally. Yeah. Because I think it comes to that, you know, when. When we come to the end of our life. And I think this also could be very different. Right. So if people haven't done any work to kind of face those fears that we were talking about in the very beginning, what does it look like to show up at. At death's door or have death knocking on your door and you haven't done any of this work, and then the fear is just like full force, like, you know, forest fire fear. And. And yet I think that when we can arrive in this consciousness with death or this, like, willingness to be present in these moments, that that is the wisdom that we get to take away.

Yeah. Can you talk about that a little bit? Like, I almost coming back to this duality of conscious living, conscious dying. My husband and I have this, I don't know, maybe dark piece of humor that we use when someone is talking about fear of death. We're always like, well, we're all on our way to dying and we have, like, a bit of chuckle about it. But I feel like that's essentially what conscious dying is. But how do you define it and then how would you, in contrast, define, like, conscious living? How do they kind of work together?

Yeah. So I guess when I think about it and I. I feel like this is what I arrived at in this piece of wisdom that I came away with when I did my end of life doula training. And firstly, I think I was like, oh, yes, I finally found my people. And then second, I think I was like, like that. That moment that, like, Lauren was like, like falling or meditation is like falling in love with life. And I felt like, wow, that that was what I got from my stud. My studies with end of life. And I think that when I think about it now, it's evolved a little bit in a way, in the way that I. I think that the conscious dying piece. And so it's almost like in. In people who work in death, they'll kind of like, say this phrase, like, start with the. And so, like, I'm gonna flash forward to the conscious dying piece. It's like, if we want to arrive at. At death in this way of having consciousness, like, there has to be the work that happens in life along the way, which is the conscious living piece. Right. And so how can we come into this awareness? Like, human design has been that for me. Astrology has been that for me. My spirituality has been that for me. And also all the dark night soul. Right. Like, those moments where I'm like, oh, my gosh, like, can I carry this anymore? Like that really deep grief that I felt from. From losing my baby and my grandma and my friend and all of those things. So it's arriving at this place where you can hold those dualities of joy and sorrow and. And then say, yeah, and I'm. And I'm still willing to show up every day. And. And for everyone, that's different. Right. And so I think that's part of the work of, like, consciously showing up, tending to your own wounds. To be somebody who serves at the bedside as well is like, I'm willing to sit in my own yuck. That I feel sometimes that in a way that I can heal the stuff that I'm walking through life with so that when I show up at somebody else's bedside, then I'm not showing up with all of my wounds, like, splayed open. And I can serve them in a way too. So I think that's. When I think about that, that's how it goes together.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm. Maybe I should have done this in the beginning, but here we are. I'm thinking, can you define what a death doula is? Yeah.

Yes. So a death doula is somebody who is. I. I teach in a holistic way. And so there are very many ways that people could show up as a death doula. But when I think about a death doula, like, my passion is serving someone at bedside hearing death.

Yeah.

So. But there are a lot of different ways that people work in end of life too. And so if. If somebody's passion isn't showing up to serve and guide at end of life, and it's not always the dying person only. Right. Like, we're also serving people who are their loved ones, who are tending to them so that they can give all of their attention or tend to themselves in the way that they need to in that time so that they're not going, oh, I need to go da, da, da, or I need to take care of xyz. And that me, as a death practitioner can say, I can help you with that. Let me. Let me take care of some of that burden. So that's one way. I also work as like an end of life coach. And so I help people kind of like figure out what is important to me when I'm coming to this point in my life, or do the preparation work necessary, like creating end of life documents, filling out the documents that are necessary. So if you know there is something tragic that happens, then all this stuff is in place. And. But there's also a lot of work that people can do in terms of like legacy work, helping people tell their stories. Yeah, it's very, it's very broad.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love that it has such broadness to it because I feel like it can be easy to think like death. Okay, one track. Like that's it. Like my, my dry dark humor of like. Well, we're all walking towards death. It feels very one track, but it actually is so broad and has this breadth to it and there's all of these elements that maybe in a day to day we're not thinking about or considering. So how does one even find someone who does work like that? Because I'm even thinking, like I shared earlier, I mentioned my brother was in like hospice care and he had such incredible support in there. But how beautiful would that ad be? So I'm thinking if someone's listening in their navigating this kind of, you know, maybe it's a prolonged chapter of grief and they have someone in their life special that is transitioning. How do you even come across this support?

Yeah, that's a great question. And I think we're still really working on transforming that in this industry because really like the, the industry of death care, grief care is so very new. So I'm a certified thanatologist also. And when I was doing my thanatology studies, which thanat is the study of death, dying and grief, I was doing some like, I would call it kind of like boring reading, which is like all the theories around grief and all that stuff. And, and even like end of life planning is something that really only started happening like 50 years ago. And so when you think about the freshness like 50 years is not. And yet we are still in this place in, in especially in modern society that we are like, well, every state. So we're in the U.S. every state has a different like code of what, what is required paperwork, like what is legally acceptable paperwork. So that's different in every state. Like we just can't all be on the same page yet we're still working on that. And then the. In the realm of like end of life and the way that I work as an end of life practitioner, doula or guidelines, I would say that it's so fresh and new and yet there are people, mostly women who have really been doing this work and paving the way for me. So I want to acknowledge that too, that have been doing this work for 2010 years and transforming this so that like people can find me. But like Covid was also right, like a terrible thing that we all endured. And Covid, for End of Life was a big. It like kind of like turned on the light switch. And so that was a. Helped kind of like shift the industry as well, bring a lot of awareness. There was a lot of articles written about end of life doulas, but if somebody's looking for someone like me, Google is usually how people find me. There's also some websites or directories that have been created that people can find end of life doulas by state and sometimes by city. So, like cake.com is one. There's a directory called death doulas.com. there's a directory with Nita. It's the National End of life doula alliance that someone could also find an end of life doula on there. So those are. Some could be helpful.

Yeah, we'll definitely link up all of those resources in the show. Notes. I feel like this conversation should get so much more spotlight than it does because it is something we all experience. Like, ultimately we're all going to face death at some point and we're all probably going to face grief at some point as well, in its own capacity. And so I just, I don't know if there's a question here other than just acknowledging how powerful this work is. And, and I wish it was something that got more spotlight. So it wasn't. So we didn't start this conversation, this concept of fear around something that's. That's here and it actually is very much a part of life.

Yeah. And I think that, like, the fear. And we all have this sense, even me, right. Who is engrossed in this work. And I'm like, oh, I'll do that tomorrow. I'll do that next month. Before I was even working into life. And I know, right from my own personal experience, I know how, how fast things can shift. Right. One day I'm pregnant, the next day I'm not. And. And so I know how, how quickly life can change. And I. When you said that, I had this flashback moment of we were going on this trip to Niagara Falls. And at the time, my kids, I had three kids and they were all little. And I have this massive fear of flying. And so I'm just like 100% sure that I'm gonna die and the plane is going to crash and all this stuff. And my, my husband's just like, he knows, like, that's not gonna happen. You know, the likelihood that that is going to happen is nil or next to nil. And so he is just like, okay, sweetie, it's gonna be fine. You know, and in that moment, if I was really real with myself, I'm like, babe, you caught all these documents and all this planning to do, but I was like, I still was one of those persons that would just stick my head in the sand and have this fear that I'm gonna die but not do anything about it, right? And so a lot of planning and a lot of stuff that I could have been doing back then and now that I've had this education and this awareness and this like, journey with death and dying that I'm like, oh, should have been that.

Yeah. Do you. Do you find that the kind of planning elements help ease the fear a little bit?

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that I was trained in is in end of life coaching. And I think that there's two ways, right? So I've coached people who don't have a terminal illness. No, no critical illness, that their, you know, death is coming that they love. And then I've also worked with people who don't have any trajectory of death death. And when I have worked with people who have come to me and they've like, I have this like massive fear of death, like they would call it like a phobia or. And I always get a little bit like unnerved in my stomach, like, oh my gosh, what's this gonna unfold? But it's really, it's like unfolds a conversation that feels so normal, like me talking to my best friend or something like that. And I think that when we had these conversations and we can name the things that afraid of, then it takes the fear or it lessens the fear at least. And then we can also, when we have those really big fears that we can be like, okay, so let's talk about this. And then. And then talk about like, what are, what are the outcomes and how can we plan for that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's so true. Giving the. Giving the fear voice in ways takes power away from it. And then you can start to sit, sift through what is holding on to you. I'm. My curiosity is just super sparked because I also developed a fear of flying shortly after my brother passed. Do you find that that's a very common fear that comes up with grief, or am I just connecting dots?

I don't know. That would be really interesting to find out though. Yeah, I don't know. I will say my fear of flying was before my experience. I stillbirth, so I can't connect that dot for myself. But. But that's interesting.

That's just My. That's just my anxiety trying to connect dots live in action on the show here.

Well, I think, though. I think there's validity in it, though, right? Because, like, when, like, I. The. My friend who was like, hey, do you want to come shadow me?

Yeah.

He died in a car accident, and he was actually my boss at the time, so I ended up working at that senior living facility, and he. He died in a car accident. It was really. It was really tragic and. And very sudden and unexpected. Right. And so it has all of these elements of really heightened fear and terror.

Yeah.

And shortly after he died, we were going on a trip. It was a road trip, and we weren't even an hour from our house, and there was a car that had crossed the median, and it was almost exactly the same way that my friend died. And I went into this full on, like, panic thing, like, weird die, like, and, you know, I just. I couldn't quite snap out of it, you know?

Yeah.

And so I think that's really also brings. Brings light to this way that even for me. And I kind of named this before, too, that even for me, who's really engrossed into this work, that, like, the fear is still here. Right?

Yeah, I.

Who knows? Like, I might arrive at my deathbed and be like, oh, my gosh. Right. But I've done all this work, so we'll see.

Yeah. Yeah, I. I love that point. So we've talked a lot about, I mean, many lessons that death has brought, and I feel like so many of them can soothe this, like, fear of dying. If someone is navigating that, taking the. What is it? Turtle time. Such a great. Such a great statement. Turtle Time. Soaking in the moments, giving the fear actual voice, putting some of those logistical pieces in place to help soothe it. Is there anything else you would say to, like, someone who's navigating that, like, real fear in their life around dying or any lessons that come through for you right now. Wow.

So I think mostly that takes me back to Turtle time. Yeah. I think because the reason is because when we kind of, like, slow down.

Yeah.

And. And we allow ourselves real. And I want to recognize that it's also really hard for some people to be in the stillness and to be in the silence and to be with that thing that they're really afraid of. I don't want to minimize that. But one of my other passions and trainings, I'm a yoga nidra teacher. And so sitting in that space of the void. Right.

Yeah.

This conscious awareness that we are with this Fear.

Yeah.

And so how can we just be with it? And that sounds so simplistic. And I don't mean it to be that way because, you know, I've had my own moments of like, I cannot sit with this.

Yeah.

So maybe that looks different for every person, but. But just figuring out or asking that question, like, how can I just slow down? How can I be with this thing that I'm journeying with? And, and also who's my support system? Like, who. Who can support me through this?

Yeah. I love that because it brings in different lenses around this concept of turtle time, around being present, around being in the moment and as like simplistic of a action step or topic that as that is, I find it to continuously be one of the most important and one that we need those like different lenses on of like you can be in the void. You also don't have to be fully alone. And so I love that you brought that different lens in there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And slowing down for some. Somebody might look like, I'm gonna go sit on my meditation cushion. And down for someone else might be like, I'm gonna take all of the electronics out of my space right now and I'm gonna a five mile run, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. Is that manifesting generator energies back in. It's like slowing down. We're going for a run. I'm. I'm curious. Do you come across a lot of different belief systems in the work that you do? End of life and how do you navigate that?

Yeah. So that's something that showed up really big for me. I worked in. After I worked at the nursing home I had, I eventually had to leave just because it was, it was really hard for me to keep working in the space. And my, my friend who was my boss, we shared an office and it just like, it was heart wrenching. And I just got to a place where I was like, can't do this anymore. And. And I was going through another training. And so I stepped away from that work, but it took me to a level one trauma hospital. And so in the hospital, and it was in a larger city, and I witnessed a lot more trauma, a lot more tragic stuff in the hospital, but I also witnessed a lot more diversity than what I did in the nursing home and where I live in my small town. And one thing that I really have so much appreciation for is. And I, I know that a lot of people have this gift, but showing up and meeting someone where they are. So if somebody is telling me, like, I don't think anything happens after death or. Or, you know, like, oh, you have to be saved by Jesus to be. To go to heaven or whatever. Like, okay, let's talk about that. So I. My. My role is to show up without judgment and without an agenda, to change anyone's mind. So I'm. I'm here seeing you and hearing you in all of yourself and all of the things that you're saying. And how can I help hold this for you?

So, yeah, yeah, I feel like that can be so powerful, even for someone who's listening, that maybe just finds that they're navigating different belief systems in their life day to day.

Yeah, totally, totally. And I think that. So I'm a kind of a person who's also kind of going, oh, like, why? Because I just, like, I mean, curiosity. And so I'm like, oh, why about that? Or why about this? And so I'm really intrigued by what other people believe. I don't find, like, other people's belief systems offensive or anything like that. I just. I'm like, oh, interesting. Like, let's talk about it so I can meet it with some curiosity. And I know too, like, that's one of the things that isn't always supported. Right. That sometimes people don't have someone in their life that can witness them in their fullness, in their differentness, that. That they feel accepted in that way. So. And there's always, like, so much work we can do in the space. Like, Right. In conscious living, we can do this and in conscious. And so even meeting. One of the things that happened in the hospital when I was there is a Native American person was dying, and they were like, well, we need smoke as part of their rituals for death. And, like, we can't really have smoke in a hospital. And so part of the solution was dry ice because it creates the, like, smoky kind of essence. So it wasn't really smoke, but it was like that essence. And so finding ways to support people in their beliefs without, like, oh, you can do without that. Like, you don't have to have that, but how can we support them? So being creative, too, is also part of it.

Oh, I love that so much. Okay. I feel like I have so many more things I want to ask you. And in honor of not making this conversation three hours, I want to touch on one other thing that I feel like ties in with that conscious dying element that we've been talking about throughout this entire conversation. And I'm curious about regret and resentment and how often you meet these themes at end of life. And yeah. If you have any tips or tools of navigating that. Because I feel like that's a big conversation when it comes to what you hear people share on their deathbed.

Yeah, I. That actually kind of gives me goosebumps because I think that I, as a neutral person, in circumstances, have this. I'm. I'm gonna call it privilege to. To witness and listen to a lot of things that other people aren't privy to hearing or they don't know that they can say it to other people. So there have been times where I have worked with people and I know prior to being one on one with them, kind of what's going to be coming up. And I'll have these moments where I'll just sit with myself because I could feel like some anxiety rising in myself almost in this way, like, how do I handle this? Or how do I hold this? And. And I think it's always going back to that thing too. Like. Like, there's no. I'm not here to fix, I'm not here to change, and I'm not here to judge. And. And when I hear the things that people share with me, there's some times where might feel like, sometimes shocking or like, wow, like, there's a lot of. A lot of weight to it. But at the same time, it's like, how amazing that somebody had that willingness to show up in this vulnerability to like, unload this thing on their deathbed. But in terms of like, with other people, so navigating some, like, tumultuous relationships, things like that, that can be difficult. That can be really difficult there. I've been in the middle of some of that stuff too, where it's really hard to witness.

Yeah. Yeah.

Hard to be with it and not have that desire to like, oh, I can fix and I can help and d. But like, just allowing it to unfold in the way that it's unfolding and. Yeah, it's hard. But I do think that is one of the things that death, you know, active dying for sure would bring that up.

Yeah.

But. But also, I think that is like, also some of the importance of really doing this work prior to arriving at death. Death. So that they. What relationships in my life do I want to heal?

Yeah.

And then you start feeling the like, is this a priority? What things do I want to prioritize and then start working with them.

I love that. That's so. Yeah, that's so tangible. And I love your continuous acknowledgment of like, this is hard and this is scary and all of that is absolutely 100% okay.

Yeah, yeah, totally. I think, because there's a really big reason for that, too, is I think that we live in this society of, like, perpetual positivity. And one of the things that I also kind of like, dabble in is the Enneagram. So I'm a four, and my friend was reading me some pages out of the Enneagram book that she had, and she was like, so these are the things that Enneagram for. They're like, they know. And so she's reading this thing, and she gets to this point, she said, an Enneagram. Four knows sadness. And I'm like, yes, yes, I. I know sadness. And so I. I think that I have carried a lot of heavy, heavy things in my life, but I've also also carried a lot of joy. And so how can we be with all of life as it is? And. And then I think the other aspect of that, too, is in. Specifically in end of life, I think there's a lot of ways that it's kind of being. I'm just going to say marketed, because I don't really know a better word to say, but marketed in the way that. That with this death positivity. And so that's the movement is death positivity. But sometimes death isn't positive. Right. Like my friend's death was. There was nothing positive about that. That was, like, absolutely horrible.

Yeah.

And so how can we sit with the horribleness of that.

Yeah.

And be willing to go, okay, and. And now I need to heal and hold space for that.

Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's such important. It's such an important step in the grieving process. And as someone who is perpetually, habitually joyful, like, I'm just a joyful person when it's just. It's in my essence, like, I was just. I was born with the spark of joy. And when death hit, learning to hold that, that was the most important thing I could have done in that moment. Because, I mean, I guess I can't tell you what would have happened if I just tried to, like, smile and be happy and skip over top of it. But it doesn't seem like it would be the same path as being able to hold it, being able to be supported in that particular chapter of grief, which then allowed me, in chapters of grief since then, to hold that differently. I feel like each layer of grief brings new lessons.

Yeah. Right. Which is why I think people say, oh, after time, it gets better with time, which is really also cliche. And for some people, not true.

Yeah, but.

But it's like that unpeeling of an onion. Like, there's another layer under that and another layer under that. And. Yeah. And bravo for having the courage to be like. And I love being happy, and I love my joyfulness and. And I'm gonna dip my toe in this. Like, in the sadness.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I love that you said that about the time thing, because I'm like, well, we could just have a whole other podcast episode on cliche quotes that people tell you because. And how they can be true and also very much not true. That one gives me an eye roll sometimes.

But yes. Yeah. And I think it's because we, like, we as a culture don't talk about death. And so then it. When it happens, it's like, oh, my gosh, what do I say? Yeah, and have this responsibility or this feeling of responsibility to, like, soothe people. And so we're like, like, somebody told me, well, you can have another baby. And I was like, what? Like what? I mean. And in their mind, maybe that was supportive. In my mind, it was absolutely not.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard that a lot from people navigating grief. And it brings us back to that turtle time, that staying present, that compassion. But that's also like, super hard when you're right in the midst of grief, because anger tends to be quite present and hang around. So it can be so hard to meet someone with that compassion in that chapter of, like, oh, they're saying this with good intention. But it can also be just, like, so hard to meet that. That when you're right in it.

And I can tell you, when I was in it, I was like, I actually. This is, for me, what happened. I was so. I was so deep in my grief, I was like, whatever. And it kind of, like, went over right through me. Maybe it went right through my heart. Maybe that's it. And, Peter, every time I would think about that, I would just get like. Like, Like, I got to a point where I was like, I just could, like, smack that person, you know? And so I'm not gonna, you know, deny that the anger doesn't arrive. And so also, how can we be with that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like there's so many, like, lessons that can be looked at from so many lenses in this entire episode. But even that is the reminder of, like, the pause. If you're in conversation with someone who is in deep grief, just, like, taking that pause before the words come out can allow you to just take that Step and notice. Like, how are these going to land with the intention that I really deeply desire?

Right.

That's an art in itself.

Absolutely. Yeah. And sometimes there's nothing to say. Right? Like maybe. Maybe it's like I'm gonna hold your hand or I'm going to hug and I'm not going to say anything.

Yeah, yeah. It's so true. Okay, so we've touched a little on your human design. I feel like your energy just like so naturally comes through. But there was one thing that completely just like stopped me in my tracks when I was pulling up your human design chart, which is your incarnation cross. Do you know much about it? It's okay. If not, you're giving me goosebumps right now.

But I actually. So when I first found out about human design, which is like 2018.

Yeah.

In my chart, and I don't know why, I was like instantly drawn to my incarnation cross. And I did a reading with this woman and she like went all into it and I was like, at that point I wasn't knee deep in. In my death work.

Yeah, in it.

But I wasn't like, I am now. And so she was telling all this stuff and I revisit that sometimes and I'm like, whoa. Wow.

Yeah, it stopped me in my tracks. And for anyone listening, that's like, what is an incarnation Cross? It's generally not necessarily the first thing I would dive into in human design, but it's basically like your life's theme when you're living in alignment. So as you're walking through life living in alignment. And that can look like what we were talking about earlier, where Rhea responded to life had that spark immediately in the end of a session towards this end of life work. And now we're living it right. And so that's what living in alignment can look like. It can also look really messy and shadowy, but we just don't have time for that in this conversation today. But the incarnation cross is just this theme that naturally shows up. And Rhea's is the clarion, which is all about waking people up and really has this essence of making the invisible visible, which, I mean, how else could we phrase that other than this concept of death that is intangible and yet you create just such clear pathways to it. I mean, this entire conversation is just jam packed with making this very non tangible topic, completely tangible for us all and like able to like step into it in a way that feels. I mean, nourishing is the word that comes up for me. And it really brings these pieces in together, one of this deep intuition and the sense of the future, just this kind of innate gift and knowing what's coming. And it also meets this element of shock. I'm curious, does that come up quite a bit in your life, this element of shock? Yeah.

So I think the shock point is the point where I'm like, now it's changed. Now it's changed. Now it's changed. And that's where I. These points in my life where it's just like. Not necessarily like a 180, but it's. It's almost like, gosh, it kind of makes me think of, like, a shooting star. And I'm just kind of like, go hit this point where I feel squeezed. I'm feeling it right now, honestly. Like, I'm feeling this point where I'm just like, it's time for the next thing. And then it'll, like, I just think of an opening of a funnel kind of, like, upward.

I love that, because the other two pieces, it meets in your incarnation. Cross is bringing details and facts together to create new ideas in the world. So you're like. You're like, I have this spark. It's here. The shock is here. And now I'm gonna, like, like, funnel it out into the world.

Yes. Yes. So can I share something with you? Like, that definitely goes along with that shock piece. So one of the things that, like, majorly initiated me into the work doing now, into the life that I'm living now, is when I moved into this house that I live in now in 2009, and there were spirits in the land that were tormented. And I felt that, like, so intensely. So intensely that I was like, this is disrupting my whole life, and I cannot live here. And so we. We had lived here maybe four months, and I was telling my husband every day, like, we have to move. We have to move. We have to move. And he's like, babe, we cannot move. We just moved in this house.

Yeah.

Oh. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, I don't know what to do. It was. And it wasn't a way that, like, I was. I was feeling, in some ways, tortured by. By an essence of a spirit that was.

Yeah.

On the land of an incident that happened.

Yeah.

And I didn't. I didn't ever know what that was, but I wasn't the only one that was feeling it. So I was. I was hearing, like, kids crying all the time. I was. And so I was, like, always going to the windows, like, are my kids like, what's going On. And our neighbors had kids. And so I was like, what's going on? And so I'm, like, on high alert all the time. My nervous system was just like, oh, my gosh. And then I was having, like, energetic interferences with my etheric body where, like, I could feel my. It would feel like my physical body was being moved, but it was my spiritual or my etherical body. Like, I had felt like I was drugged across the room. I felt like I was thrown against a wall. And so it was, like, terrifying. And I got to the point where I was like, you can't do this anymore. I just can't do this anymore. And somebody that I knew, knew somebody else, and they were like, can we just try to do, like, a remote house clearing? And I'm like, I don't care. Do anything. Like, this has to stop. And I've had experiences like this. Like, I know this. I know this energy. Right. But I hadn't experienced it like that. And. And so they did the house clearing, and they were like, there was a. They. They said there was a massacre on. And they said that the. And I. I, like, it makes me get teary. Today that there was a native people and others murdered.

Wow.

And, like, it brings so much emotion to me. That's the shock. Right. And so even today. And things changed. Like, things shifted within a week. But even today, I'm like, have this desire or this, like, intense calling to heal the land and heal the spirits of the land. So that, like, I don't know, it just feels like. So this. This torturous thing that happened, this genocidal thing that happened. Can. Can, like, I don't think it'll ever be healed. Right. But, like, can let these spirits go free.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a devastating story. And also, like, what a beautiful depiction of taking something so intense, such as shock, the feeling of shock, and you transmuting that into how you show up not just in the work that you do, but it. In the life that you live.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it was hard. Like, I'm not gonna lie. I was like, oh, my God. And I was going through. That's not what I was doing in my life. Right. Like, I was very intellectually in my brain doing work. So this woman, because I was like, I don't know what to do with this. And she said, you have, like, this incredible channeling ability.

Yeah.

Talk about all this stuff. And I'm like, no, thanks. That's not where I'm going in my life. Like, I knew. I knew it Right. But I was like, that's not my path. No, thank you. And gosh, what was it like? Ten years later, I was knocking on my door again.

I love it. Yeah. Even like the name of the incarnation cross itself, like the clarion, like, there is such an intuitive nature to that in itself. And Yeah. I find sometimes we have to, like, resist those gifts a little bit and then come to them in right timing for. For you.

Right.

Like, I talk about all the time on the show, when I found out I was a projector in this human design, I was like, no, no, thanks. I'm good. Like, absolutely do not want to hear anything about that. Yeah. Okay. This has just been such a good conversation in so many ways. Shapes and forms. Two final questions for you. One, I know you have an incredible program open right now called Apprenticeship with Death. And if anyone has just been sparked, maybe like the initial spark you had, or maybe just a slight curiosity around this end of life work, we'll link it up in the show notes. But can you tell us in your own words a little bit about the soul of that program? Yeah.

Oh, I love how you said that. The soul of that program. That's so good. So my intention with the program is really to help people meet death and. And dying and grief in a really holistic way. You know, I talked about, like, as a death care worker, like, I want to show up in a healed way. And so maybe you're already working in end of life or. And you feel like you just need to go deeper in this way that I want to, like, deepen into my compassion or my empathy or whatever that is. Maybe. Maybe that's the kind of person that would be invited into this work. Maybe it's somebody who's like, I really want to hold death and dying and grief in my community, and I really desire to kind of like shift this in my community. Maybe. Maybe you're feeling that call to be that person. Or maybe it's even like, I want to heal a wound. Like me. Like, I had this wound about my. My stillbirth that I was like, I think I was called to end of life in some ways to heal this wound. And so maybe it's that. Maybe. Maybe also there's just this curiosity, like, what is this thing? I'm gonna go check it out. And I think this work too, is really supportive. Like, maybe you don't really want to be an end of life worker who's like, sitting at bedside with someone, but maybe you're a massage therapist or a counselor or an Acupuncturist or anything like that. And. And the wisdom that you take away from a program like this is something that will be supportive of you having conversations with somebody who is going through the journey with death. Yeah.

I just know. I know you've run this several times, but we've just recently met, and I just know that the. This is a program that's so needed in the world and. And you're just such an incredible person to hold that space as well.

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for seeing me and holding this container and all of your joy. Like, I'm like, I want you to go take the. The sacred death care archetype quiz because I'm pretty sure that you're like, one of. One of the archetypes is a radiant enchanter. And I'm like, that's Megan.

Oh, okay. Well, I'm definitely running to who we all love a quiz. Right? So I'm defin going to run over and take that for sure and then let you know which one I am. Are there any final words that you want to gift to anyone listening, Whether it's someone who's in the midst of grief or feeling that fear of dying or even find themselves meeting death right now as they're listening? Is there. Yeah, just any. Any final words you want to give? Gosh, that's a hard one.

I would just say maybe like, embrace the curios. You know, like, what are. What is the. What is the thing asking or inviting you to do? And so maybe that's a tenda death cafe and just kind of like start to learn a little bit more. Maybe that's read a book or maybe that's like, hey, I'm call my bestie and talk about this grief that I'm holding on to and having the vulnerability to do that.

I love it. Perfect final words to end our conversation today. I'm so grateful for all of your time. What a beautiful conversation.

Ditto. Megan, thank you.

Thank you so much for tuning in today. If you're ready to get unstuck and on with a joyful life, you're ready to be magnetically you in life, relationships, business and everything in between. I invite you to apply for coaching together. It all starts with a clarity call. If you think thought this was magic, get ready to blow your mind through your own possibilities. Apply for coaching@megansemans.com coaching.