Tax Strategies for High-Income Earners Who is “Time Poor But Cash Rich” with Keshav Kolur (EP. 49)

Welcome back to the Ideas by Mike podcast with your host, Mike Milligan. Uh, unique and special is what I can say about our guest today. I am so happy to welcome Keshav Kalor, who is a real estate private equity sponsor, software engineer, Founder of Clive Capital and is, who's doing something transformational in the investment space for high-income earners and those looking to seek alternative investments. And so we're going to get into that on the show today. But first I have to ask, how does a mechanical engineer end up in the investment world? Keshav?

Yeah, it's a great question. And thank you again, Mike, for having me on the show today. It was great having you on our podcast as well. Couple weeks ago, investing for generational wealth, and yeah, just honored to be here. And thank you for those at home listening to me as well. So that is a great question, and I look back often thinking about how I've come here and what I would have changed along the way. And so the change that what I would have changed—that's a whole separate topic. But anyway, as far as mechanical engineer going into college, I was always interested in. robots and automation. Since I was the age of 5, I was drawing pictures of just me and my robots, like an army of robots just hanging out at my mansion as a 5-year-old. So that, flying cars always excited me. My idea of traditional software engineering, when I was going into college, my parents told me, hey, this is something that you should look into. And I told them that I didn't wanna just sit behind a cubicle all day and be at my desk. And that wasn't the greatest reasoning because that's what we all do anyway nowadays, no matter who we are, what we do. But I thought that if I was a mechanical engineer, I would have more hands-on work and it would be more, I don't know, entertaining, for lack of a better word, I guess. And so that was my idea. I did a minor in computer science during college as well, with the goal of going into robotics, graduated college, and realized that all these job openings for robotics required master's or PhDs, et cetera. And I really didn't want to go back to school. And so I thought about what other ways I could have the impact that I wanted to have without having to go back to school again. And formal school, right? Degrees, diplomas, papers, et cetera. I'm a firm believer that we should always learn every day and get better, but that doesn't have to be in the classroom setting confined within a box where there's only one correct answer and standardized testing, et cetera. So 2020, when I graduated college, I read— 2019, I should say, I graduated, read Rich Dad Poor Dad, and that got me thinking about rental real estate. Got my realtor's license on Leap Day of 2020, February 29th, and then COVID happened. Sold a couple homes later that summer and before I bought a rental, realized that there's a much better way to do it, to scale into syndications, which is what we do now, helping people passively invest for all of the things you mentioned, financial freedom, generational wealth, passive income, tax benefits, et cetera. And so that's why I made that transition is originally I thought my impact was going to be robotics and helping improve the quality of people's lives. But I've realized that you can also do that, by just helping people improve their investment portfolio.

Now, stats matter, right? And this journey from Georgia Tech through Facebook and Amazon, right? Just a couple small companies where you worked before you founded Clive. Yeah. To today in 2026, stats matter. Since starting Clive, 1,100 multifamily value-added, 14 industrial triple-net leases, 47 oil and gas wells, private lending nationwide, and over 100 single-family residents. So from COVID and that's been since COVID right? Which just seems like it was yesterday. That is significantly syndication and capital that has been deployed and that has helped a lot of high-income earners, a lot of people looking to find real passive income growth. So I'd love to ask before we dive into some other questions here, a question about Clive. When you founded Clive Capital, did you realize this one-of-a-kind impact you were going to be able to make on having as many number of transactions and deals in place as quick as you were? Did you see the opportunity?

I appreciate the kind words, Mike. Just to clarify, so we don't own 100% of everything that you mentioned.

Right.

So we are a fund of funds, just for those listening at home as well. We are a fund of funds. Basically, we allocate our investors' capital into all of these different opportunities where underlying companies manage the day-to-day. Similar model to like a fund manager, just like what Warren Buffett does in terms of investing Berkshire Hathaway into various companies. He doesn't make Apple computers, but he invests into Apple and they handle the day-to-day. So that's a quick clarification there. As far as where, what I had in mind when I first started out, the goal was to help people become financially free. Our headline goal today has been to help 10,000 families achieve financial independence. And we're about to cross 100 clients here pretty soon. So we're only even 1% of the way there in that big Bigger than, larger than life goal. When I started out, I didn't know that there were all these different avenues of helping people achieve financial independence in terms of alternative investments and tax strategies. I was just familiar with rental real estate investing, which turned into multifamily real estate investing 4 years ago. I familiarized myself with our private lending about 2 years ago now, similarly with oil and gas as well. And so it's just been a constant journey of learning new strategies, investment strategies, new tax strategies, and new, more so now, and like structuring. How do you create the right structures, whether it's LLCs, trusts, estates, et cetera, to protect your wealth? So I have a more full picture now that our end goal is to become a one-stop shop almost as like an RIA or a multifamily office for our investors where we are their one-stop shop for all of their financial needs in terms of saving, investing, allocating, reallocating, protecting their wealth, setting up again, trusts, estates, wills, et cetera. Just the whole picture.

So this is intriguing because I want to talk about how the tech brain meets the investor brain. And you've been in 2 very intense worlds with the high-level software engineering at companies like Amazon and Meta, but also in the high-stakes real estate private equity as the founder of Clive now. So can you take us inside your head at the exact moment you're evaluating a deal? What does your engineering brain notice first that most traditional real estate investors completely miss?

I think it's the downside risk scenarios, the worst case scenarios, the what-if scenarios, like how could this go up in flames? And, you know, my, I would just have to kiss my money gone to the wind. A lot of what we're taught as engineers, much more easily understood in the physical world. If I was a mechanical engineer, which is what I was originally trained to be building a bridge, for example, there are very tangible risks to that in terms of lives lost if something goes wrong. And on the software side of things, it's sometimes not as— like at companies like Amazon or Meta, it's not typically at least lives being lost. It's more so revenue that's being lost. And at the scale that these companies operate, it's top-line revenue that could take like 7, 8-figure hits. In a matter of minutes. And so there it's, and we have to still, just because that threat exists, that risk exists, doesn't mean we stop doing our job, right, of continuing to improve the product. So it's about understanding the risks and building in guardrails to mitigate that risk. So on the real estate or investment side of things, that is looking at what the downside scenario is, right? So if it's, And each of these asset classes that we are in is so different. For oil and gas, which is on the riskier side of our investment portfolio, the ways we mitigate risk there, for example, is being really conservative on what we're using for our price of oil in our projections. It is just as volatile as the stock market, and we've seen a run-up in the last week, few weeks because of the conflict in Iran. oil has shot up, and, but they could equally just shoot down if Saudi Arabia decides to up output, right? Up their production. Right. So what we did there, for example, is look at the 5-year trailing average over the price of oil on our last fund that we did that's spread across 30+ different wells. And we said, hey, on average, oil has been at around $72 a barrel. Over the last 5 years, even including COVID when it dropped as low as $30 a barrel, which is more than half of, like less than half of the price that it is today. Right now it's at like $77, $78 a barrel. That's one of the ways that we're being conservative, right? So, and in terms of real estate, be conservative on the rents. Always have contingency, right? In case your budgets are, in case you overrun your budget. Right? So it's things like that that we make sure that we have enough guardrails in place to make sure that we minimize the risk of anything going wrong. And at the end of the day, it's also about diversification. Don't have all of your eggs in one basket. And that is another way to mitigate risk.

Your concept of like looking at the downside is often almost against human nature, by the way. The human brain is almost programmed to see the upside and minimize the risk. But what you're doing is you're taking your tech brain and your investor brain, put it together and actually quantifying what the real risk is. And that is, that's refreshing to hear that because again, most people go into an investment thinking that it's going to double in 3 or 4 years. Not that it actually can lose value over that same time period. And so that was a great answer, and I'm glad to hear that the way your world has collided together with your engineering side and the investment side, that that's the way you're looking at that. You're also working with a specific type of investor. This is what I love, right? By the way, of like the investment world, like your vision for building Clive into something bigger. Like that is almost a full shop at the end of the day. But you have identified your ideal client profile. You know exactly who you want to work with. You want to work with tech employees and high earners who are time poor, but cash rich and hungry for passive income. So if you could paint a very vivid picture, like I want our listeners to be able to see the person That is your ideal investor. And what is that investor that you're going to paint the picture of? What are they worried about at 2:00 AM? What do they secretly want their money to do for their life? And how does your approach help them rewrite their story?

Yeah, great question, Mike. So I would say our focus right now is primarily tech employees working at these top companies, Amazon, Google, Meta, Tesla, et cetera, all of which we have investors at, by the way, and as well as business owners. So I won't say that we won't work with anyone else. We have consultants, we have accountants that invest with us as well, you know, management executives from the car industries, et cetera. But our bread and butter is tech employees and business owners. So tech employees, and that's because I am both of those. I am a tech employee and I have been one and I'm a business owner as well. And so I know what keeps both of these kinds of people up at night. For tech employees, anyone who works at these, let's call them Magnificent 7 companies, for example, for lack of a better word, oftentimes their company does really well. Especially over this last 18-year stretch since the great financial crisis, the stock market has been on a tear because of the adoption of technology and also more recently AI. A lot of how our fellow tech employees get compensated is through RSUs, stocks in the company that they're working in. Now, they perform well over the long run because that's where we are headed as a civilization. That's where the value is. But they often, you know, want to believe that they're going to continue to win, that their company's going to continue to win. So a lot, they will keep their money in their own stock. But anytime any earnings takes a hit, they also see half, if not more, their portfolio just decline 20% in value in a single day. And it could be for the silliest of reasons, right? You could have beat earnings, but like what we're seeing recently, you could have beat earnings. But if you say that the The forecast or the outlook, you know, looking ahead is we're going to increase our AI spending. That gets Wall Street antsy and they sell your stock.

Right.

Even though you beat earnings. And so the stock market is not always the most logical, and especially now in times of turmoil, geopolitical conflicts can affect your business, right? How is there a direct correlation between the war in Iran and Meta's revenue? Right? Like it's just uncertainty. That's it. And it just affects everyone. And it really sucks to wake up one day and see your portfolio go from $1 million in your company stock portfolio down to $700,000 in your company stock portfolio. So that's one is overconcentration in your own company stock. Number 2 is just overconcentration in the stock market in general. A lot of these investors don't have the time, like you said, to invest into these alternatives. Some of them may pick up rental real estate here and there or buy a local business, but that's about it. Even that is not done, unfortunately, with a lot of sophistication. A lot of people in the Bay, for example, will buy a home in the Bay expecting that it's going to be a great return for them. And I talk to many investors time and time again who tell me that they barely break even on their investment, if not they lose money monthly. And all they're doing is hoping and praying that their investment goes up in value, and they're already doing that in the stock market. So a lot of what they're doing is just banking on the stock market, the real estate market to really save them. And the other big thing is, I would say, I mean, there's plenty I could, we could do a whole episode just on this topic, but the other big thing is the tax bill. I would say a lot of these high-tech professionals at these top tech companies, Myself included, we live in New York City or in the New York area. We live in California, in Seattle. Seattle's lucky, or Washington State, but California and New York especially, very high tax states. And not only is your tax bracket high enough because of your tech earnings, you have then state and local tax that adds to it. So we help our employees, or not employees, our investors and clients reduce their tax bill. Legally and for the most part passively, but we're going to start expanding into active strategies as well so that they can save on their taxes because tax is the biggest expense that we will have. And if we can produce those savings for our investors and clients, that's a huge immediate win in just year one. You don't even have to wait for a real estate cycle, you know, real estate deal to go full cycle in 5 years. That tax savings will be realized within a year.

So, well, there's a lot of people that don't, that are, you know, when I was on your podcast, we talked about some strategies to reduce taxes that I've seen for entrepreneurs. But what a lot of people don't realize is even for W-2 employees, there's legal and ethical ways just through structure and loopholes to be able to reduce income. And that's where, like, where you are, just for our listeners, right? Just so when he says the Bay, he means San Francisco. He doesn't mean the Chesapeake Bay.

Yeah.

on the East Coast, or right, or the bay that's up, you know, Green Bay in Wisconsin. Because we also have, I know we have listeners up in Wisconsin too. He's talking about California, the San Francisco Bay. But there are ways to structurally, and you said it right, taxes are the biggest expense that you have in your life is what I say. I've said it on this podcast almost every episode. I said it in the One of a Kind Financial Plan. But it's interesting that like the high-income earners, Tech executives, tech engineers, tech folks are not being more aggressive with tax strategy. And part of it is, and I think it's part of it has been because of the explosion in the value of their, of the stocks where they've been all this time. I mean, the numbers are crazy. Like I think there's, I think 75% of Nvidia employees are millionaires.

Yeah.

High percentage of millionaires in Google and Amazon. In Facebook, a high number of millionaires. And so they think because they have an asset that's sitting over here that it's okay just to pay. But when you combine not only the explosive growth and your RSUs, restricted stock units, your income, and you put tax savings on top of it, now you're really starting to talk about this becoming work optional later in life. But before we get to work optional, I do want to ask you a question that I've asked a lot of our guests. And it comes around like a deal either you walked away from or you almost walked away from. I'd love to know, because you've been involved in thousands of deals in the syndication market, tell us about a deal that either you did or almost walked away from. And so what were the questions or red flags? And I'm really, and I really wanted to get inside your mind again because I want our listeners to hear Like to, I want 'em to hear that it's okay to walk away from a deal from time to time, but I want you to know that when it's the right time, right, to walk away from it, not just like a gut or intuition, but like an actual expert in when they walked away. So would you, would you walk us through that?

Yeah, of course. I mean, this is our primary responsibility to our investors and clients is to find the best deals out there as a fund of funds manager across all these asset classes, not just real estate, not just oil and gas, but my end goal is what is the best way to make money out there? Like, that's the end goal. It's more nuanced than that, obviously. So the 6 criteria that we look at when we're evaluating any type of deal, it could be an investment strategy or a tax strategy, a legal strategy, anything, is what is the return, right? Overall.

Mm-hmm.

Like if you put X money in, how much are you going to get out in 5 years, 3 years, 7 years? Number 2 is cash flow, right? Even if we don't get to that glorious sale day, or that glorious sale day is delayed for whatever reason, because there's a recession maybe, how much are we going to be earning while we're holding that asset? Number 3 is liquidity. So how long is this investment going to tie up your capital for? Is it 3 months? Is it a year? Is it 3 years, 5 years, 10 years? We'd look at risk, right? How risky of an investment is this? We look at the tax benefits of it. What are the— what's the tax savings here? What's the tax play, if any? And then lastly is the charitable or altruistic aspect of it, right? Like, is there a do-good aspect to this? Because we've noticed that that is an angle that a lot of people are, you know, very like keen on focusing on as well. So when we look at those, and we have investments that cover the entire spectrum on all 6 of these criteria also. So there's deals that are low returns, but really great cash flow. Maybe it's just 10% cash flow, but it's 10% from day one. We have some that are very high cash flow, but like slightly higher risk. We have some that are purely for the tax benefits. Like, you know, kiss this money goodbye for the most part, but you can, there might be some upside, but you're also going to get a lot of tax benefits from this too. Every $1 you put in, you might deduct $5 to $10 from your taxable income. And so we look at all of these different things, and that's because all of the different investors out there have different goals in life, different focuses. Some people want, they'll tell me, I don't care how long it takes. I just want an overall high return. I don't need this money now. That's one bucket. Then you have people who are like, I'm trying to retire in the next 5 years. I'm trying to replace my income. So I'm looking more for opportunities that are passive income oriented. So there, for example, one of the executives or like managers that we're working with, has invested more than $400,000 with us into an opportunity. And on that specific opportunity in private lending, he's achieving $5,000 a month in passive income. And so obviously results vary. I'm not saying, you know, like that this is always going to be guaranteed or anything like that, but that's just an example of how different people allocate for different things. Other people like the stock market and they just care about the tax benefits. They don't care about real estate, you know, they don't care about passive income. For whatever reason, they want to keep all their eggs in one basket, and we obviously try to tell them what the pros and cons of that are, but we help them where we can. And so we look at all of these different things when we evaluate what kinds of asset classes, what kinds of strategies do we even want to begin evaluating. Then once we get into that, we find the companies in those sectors that we like to work with that are honest, that are hardworking, that have a track record. We have put together a 111-question due diligence checklist on our website if folks want to go check that out at CliveCap.com. That's one of the assets on there. We have 2-pagers and ebooks about other topics as well, about like why you should be investing outside the stock market or the benefits of investing into oil and gas. But we go through that checklist and we look at what is this company's track record? What is, how long have they been doing this? When have they failed? Why did they fail? How have they, you know, like come back from that and improved? So the company is number one who we're investing with, who we're investing into because they determine everything. They can make money in bad times and good times, bad locations and good locations, and they can weather the best of storms. We also look at the deal structure itself, right? What is the upside here? And then more importantly, like we were talking about earlier, what is the downside and how can we mitigate it? How can we be conservative so that we can always stand by our mantra, which is under-promise and over-deliver to our clients? And so I'm putting a deal together right now and it's a new asset class, but it's Going through that same rigor of, hey, you know, who am I investing into? What am I investing into? What's their track record? What is my failsafe or backup plan in case things don't go as planned? How am I being conservative? How am I protecting my investor's capital, et cetera? So some of the deals we've walked away from using that kind of framework, we keep a track. We keep track of the people that we want to work with that we're evaluating and the ones we've said no to. Like we have constant pipeline and I'm, I just have it pulled up here. Some of them is just that the returns were inconsistent, right? Like year 1, they printed great returns, and then year 2, the returns dropped and like, what is going on here? So we've decided to hold off and just see how the strategy plays out. Another one is a fairly well-known sponsor managing billions of dollars in real estate assets. They continue to cross-collateralize one investment with another and adding, raising additional capital in the forms of pref equity, promissory notes, private lending, things like that. And so that always has me on edge as well. So anytime anyone has done capital calls or like asked for additional capital, that's always scary. And then sometimes deals just don't fit our buy box. So we were looking at a deal that was a 14% IRR, and for us and our investors, that's in this environment, it's too low. You have the stock market where if you invest into the right companies, they can do really well, and that's kind of what you're competing against. So that one, by virtue of not meeting our buy box, we just turned it down. So yeah, I would say, I would say you should always find, to end this, to end my spiel, you should always find reasons to not do the deal rather than reasons to do the deal. So always think like stare into the abyss, look at all the different things that could happen. And then at some point, for my engineering folks out there, you have to take the jump. Like, my fellow business owners know that because they're business owners, they know the risks. But with engineers, you don't, you never, you always end up building the bridge. Right? You don't, you don't never not build the bridge just because it could fall someday or build the airplane. You just have to do your checks and at one point take that jump of that leap of faith with capital that you are worst case willing to lose. You don't want to put in your last 50 grand into a deal where if that goes south, you and your family are out on the street because you don't want to sleep and live with that stress. And I, as the fund manager managing your capital, Don't want to live with that stress either.

So that is, that is a good, I mean, like the way you walk through like the structure of how you came to it and how like the end result there was you don't put money in that, you know, would put your family out at night, right?

Yeah.

Is like, is a great like full circle moment on like things you would or would not invest in. I had this idea back in like 2017. I was still coaching high school baseball and I love the game of baseball. I played it my whole life or coached it my whole life up until that point. And I was going to create a postgraduate baseball program. So like a year for people between high school and college. And this idea was to bring in those kids who just need to mature a little bit, either physically or mentally or work on their academics. And I actually found a school that was willing to do it, and I was going to be a postgraduate baseball coach and I was going to give up my entrepreneurial— it was an entrepreneurial journey. But I was going to give up financial planning at the time. And when I really thought about it, it was just the wrong thing. I loved baseball. I loved financial planning, but the upside was more in financial planning than it ever would be in 19-year-old guys and helping them become something. And so I gave that dream up, right? I did not go down that path. And we all have to be willing to say no because If you can't say no, your net, your yes means nothing. And so, yeah, I want to conclude here in our last couple minutes by speaking specifically to either a certain listener or a listener that knows somebody like I'm getting ready to describe. So let's say you and I sat down to design a private market-focused For a plan for a 40-year-old high-income earner who wants to be work optional by the time they're 55. How would you sequence private equity, real estate, and other alternatives over the next 15 years so that life shows up first at that age and the spreadsheet Yeah, that's a great question.

Our goal is always to, I mean, I, growing up, I saw my dad commute crazy distances to work even, and he's working now even when he's 60. And that's because our educational system has failed us. It teaches us about other useful things. I love math. I will never say that math is useless, but it doesn't teach us about finances, unfortunately. And a lot of these are also just recent innovations, which is also part of it in terms of like syndications and privately raising capital from mom-and-pop investors, everyday people, that really only became a thing after the JOBS Act was passed in 2012 or 2013. So it's a little bit of both, but now that we are here, we should take the full advantage of it because we are still relatively new in this era, which is what I'm very excited and honored to be born and just walking around during this time of financial planning, et cetera, investments. So number one is when you're 40, for example, like you said, is always look at number— it's where are you today, right? Like how is your portfolio allocated and what is your lifestyle? What are you willing to— and I think this is because no advice applies to everyone blanketly. So it's always good to understand where people are today, where they're coming from and what they value, right? So how are you allocated today? What is your income? What are your expenses? Like a P&L, profit and loss, but for an individual rather than a company. And then look at what kind of lifestyle do you want to lead on your road to early retirement? Because some sacrifices will have to be made somewhere, right? Whether it is, or you delay, you delay your retirement time window. So that's, there's always a trade-off. Based on that, we can figure out how much is someone making, how much are they willing, what is their current portfolio allocated into, how much can they save from their lifestyle? And then from there, number one is always taxes, right? That is the biggest thing that we can save, like not much operational risk. And you see a pretty quick turnaround in terms of value savings, additional income realized because a tax dollar saved is a dollar earned. So that's one, like tax analysis. Where can we save on your taxes? Number 2 is, I would say, is diversification. Are you just in the stock market and maybe your primary home? Let's diversify you outside into real estate and into oil and gas, et cetera. So once we decide that, and we also at that point, once we look at diversification, we also figure out what the person's goals are, right? If they want to retire by 55, that's great. That gives us a timeline, but how long are they willing to not see their money for, right? That's a personal comfort thing. Are they fine with their money being locked up for 5 years or do they want just a 1-year lockup. And then we assess their risk tolerance as well, right? Basically that 6 criteria I mentioned earlier, we run through each of them for that specific person and then match investments to them that fit their criteria while educating them, right? Some people might not know that it might be worth locking up your money a little bit longer, even if it means you can't touch it now, but it gives you an extra 20, 30% in a couple of years. And so from there, we look at a mix of growth, like strategies that are more growth-oriented, which is real estate, like appreciation. They'll already have stuff in the stock market, so that takes care of that bucket as well. We'll look at some passive income, private lending, so that we can start building up that passive income stream for them. Oil and gas is great for the tax benefits as well, in addition to the passive income. And then we would just do maybe like quarterly check-ins, for example, just say, hey, these, once we've put initial plan together and allocated and diversified them, and there we can help them diversify not only their cash, but we can help them diversify their retirement accounts using self-directed IRAs, taking a 401 or Roth IRA and converting it into a self-directed IRA and then investing that. And then we can explore what other sources of income You know, like a home equity line of credit, for example, or securities-based line of credit. Those 2 involve leverage, so you have to be more careful, but that is an additional way to generate income as well and, you know, use untapped funds to their highest potential. And then just review this on a quarterly basis and keep them updated on how their investments and their tax strategies are going. And the goal is that in 5 to 10 years, they have a handful of these strategies and investments paying them. thousands of dollars a month in passive income, and they're legally and mostly passively paying fewer taxes on it.

Well, that was a great answer. And we're going to land the plane right there because we have addressed like how you think, what are some options you've looked at, how you would talk specifically to our listeners. So, Keshav, thank you for pulling back the curtain on how you think about investments, your journey through the tech world, private deals, building true passive income, not just for someday, but really for a one-of-a-kind life right now. If today's conversation sparked an idea in you, maybe it's asking better questions before you wire money into a deal, or you're finally getting serious about designing your one-of-a-kind financial plan. Don't let this just sit there as an interesting podcast. Let this be an action point for you. Take one small action in the next 24 hours. Send an email, run the numbers, book a call, start the plan. We're going to drop links with Keshav's information and learn more about what he's building at Clive Capital. And we'll put those in the show notes below. As always, I'm Mike Milligan, Certified Financial Planner. Thanks for spending part of your one-of-a-kind life with us today. If you found value in this episode, share it with a friend, leave a review, and keep coming back as we explore more ideas to help you build a life and a financial plan that are as unique as you are. Until next time, keep living and planning and be one of a kind. Thank you for logging in and listening or watching to another episode of Ideas by Mike. If you want to learn more about my firm, One Oak Financial, please visit us on our website at www.oneoakfinancial.com. That's the number oneoakfinancial.com. If you enjoyed this podcast, You could help me by liking it, subscribing to our channel, and telling others about what we're doing. See, guys, we're looking to change the game, and that game is about making financial planning more about you. Until next time, this has been Mike. CFP Board owns the marks CFP®, Certified Financial Planner, and CFP®. in the United States. As a reminder, Mike Milligan, Certified Financial Planner, is an investment advisor representative of Advisory Alpha LLC, an SEC-registered investment advisory firm. All opinions expressed by me or our guests are solely our own opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Advisory Alpha. This recording is for informational purposes only. It should not be relied on for investment, tax, or legal decisions. And it's in no way intended to communicate or guarantee specific performance or suitability of any security instrument or product as we may have discussed. Investment advisory and financial planning services offered through Advisory Alpha LLC, a registered investment advisor. Insurance is offered through Ideas by Mike, a Virginia-based LLC here to serve you in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. Ideas by Mike is a separate and unaffiliated entity of Advisory Alpha, LLC. While tax and legal issues may be discussed in the general course of financial and investment planning, Advisory Alpha does not provide tax or legal services. Please consult with your tax or legal professional prior to making a decision relative to those decisions. Any and all statements of purported or observed general practices of non-affiliated firms and advisors or conditions of the broad financial services industry are solely the opinions of Mike and are not intended to be offered as factual. The validity of these statements has not been verified, and as such, no representation of their validity are made. An annuity is a long-term financial product designed largely for asset accumulation and retirement needs. All guarantees are backed by the claims-paying ability of the issuing insurance company. This podcast is produced in conjunction with Mike Milligan, LLC. Thank you again for joining us today. We'll see you on the next podcast.