EP 4 - What is RevOps? What is Growth Ops?

Hi, I'm Michael Hartman.

I'm Naomi Liu.

And I'm Mike Rizzo.

And this is OpsCast, a podcast for marketing ops pros and RevOps pros, created by the MoPros, the number one community for marketing operations professionals.

Tune into each episode as we chat with real professionals to help elevate you and your marketing operations career.

Okay, hello everyone. Welcome to episode 4 of OpsCast, brought to you by the MoPros. You know, this has been really fun. We've had a number of different topics. We've got more coming up that we're really excited about. I'm Michael Hartman. Today I'm joined by my co-host Mike Rizzo again. One of our normal co-hosts, Naomi Liu, is not able to join us today, but that's okay. We're going to carry on. Today we're gonna have an interesting conversation, I think, and we're gonna let our guests get into this a little bit. Really, it's what the hell is RevOps? I think we've probably all heard about that in, you know, in our marketing ops roles or other roles that we have. And joining us today to talk about that is Melissa McCready from GrowthOps, formerly MOCA. And if you want to participate in the conversation, feel free to raise your hand if you want to get on air or pop something in the chat if you're online on a browser. We're looking forward to getting everyone involved. So Melissa, thanks for joining us. I know this was sort of put together, you know, kind of rapidly, but why don't you start off by just introducing yourself and tell us more about GrowthOps and Moka and whatever you want to cover?

Sounds great, thanks Michael. Melissa McCready here. I've been in the RevOps space since it's been around and before it was even called this. So, uh, before Salesforce was even a thing, I was doing this stuff. So long time at this and have seen so many changes. Um, I've been working with the GrowthOps community. We were known as MOCA before, Marketing Operations Cross-Company Alliance, which has been around for about 16 years. Took it over about a year and a half ago and said, hey, let's rebrand this because operations is not just one spot. And when we're talking about RevOps and GrowthOps, they can sound one and the same, but growth operations is actually a level above it because what it's doing is it's looking across all operations in an organization, orchestrating those things, whereas revenue operations is more of the customer-facing with the goal of revenue. Growth is both internal and external, whereas RevOps is more of the revenue growth. And so that's more of the what we'll call internal growth. So with that, I'm very passionate about this and work with numbers of different companies, helping them with projects and strategy and in the weeds doing— still doing list imports nowadays. It's amazing that that never seems to go away in doing this sort of work, but happy to be here and can't wait to get into the chat.

Yeah, so I think you're leading us right into, you know, the big question is, you know, what the hell is RevOps? And I think it was interesting as we were chatting just before we came on, you mentioned that you have a passion about clear definitions of RevOps versus GrowthOps, and I'll throw in one that I've heard, go-to-market ops.

Mm-hmm.

And I would love to kind of get your view on how do you distinguish those, how do you define them, And maybe what's in them and what's not in them?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that either any of those, it just depends on who's defining them. But if we really want to say from a technical level, let's define those. So revenue operations, sales operations, marketing operations, customer operations, so customer success and channel operations will typically fall under revenue operations. These are all everything that has to do with driving revenue in the organization. Whereas with go-to-market, you are driving in demand, right? So you're usually going to find a go-to-market operations team that is more marketing operations and maybe brand and awareness focus, uh, is in there as well. And they're going to be tied into sales operations, but the goal of a team that is doing go-to-market operations Of course, revenue is in that goal, but it's driving that pipeline build. And then with growth operations, it's both of those things are wrapped into growth operations. Growth operations is more around front office, back office, as well as customer engagement and looking across the entire business and saying, what are all the things that we're doing? So it's now taking in you know, the people planning process as well and processes across the board to grow a business. So what do we need to do in HR? What do we need to do in sales? What do we need in customer success? So it's a much wider way of looking at it. And the goal that I had when I said, hey, this really needs its own name, it needs its own stake in the ground, is to get that a seat at the table. What we're seeing is there's traditional COOs, they come in, they're finance, they're legal, they're accounting. But they're not operations to that extent, right? If you, you're working with a larger company that has a physical product, you're going to have supply chain falling under there. But if you're talking about cloud, you're not going to necessarily have that for a deliverable. But in general, operations for driving growth is going to be about growing the business up, right, and scaling that business. It's such an important piece of it. That has been, I feel, very much missing. And I think it definitely is ahead of its time talking about it. But if we're on that path to get to that point, we're gonna be in a good spot. I think RevOps is, and go-to-market operations, hearing that tells me that we're on that path, but we definitely have a long way to go. I mean, I don't see this coming up in the next 5 years, that would even be early. But if people are thinking about it and they're building their organizations and their plans with that framework in mind, It's going to help them so much later on down the road.

Yeah, I— this is Mike Rizzo, everybody. I totally— it resonates with me. I think, Melissa, when you and I first met, you know, about a year ago, a year and a half ago or so, you had shared this idea of growth operations with me, and I found it fascinating. I think when you're talking about the overarching strategy of revenue operations, and I think the thing that you shared with me back then, which you largely touched on just through what you shared right now, was the sense of revenue operations is that it's a little bit self-serving, right? Like, it serves the organization. You're thinking about growing revenue, And you're, you're thinking about like, how does the business grow? But it doesn't necessarily keep a lens on the pulse of your clients and the health of your clients. And I think that was the thing that resonated most with me, being that I had recently stepped back into—

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, so I had recently stepped back into my role over at Mavenlink, and I was, I was heading up building out our client customer advisory board, our customer community, partner community, those kinds of things. And My purview was that, you know, we're trying to enable the clients to have better success with one another and connecting with one another. And so this notion of growth ops really resonated with me in the sense that, hey, yeah, revenue, revenue operations, and it sort of feels like it's missing a little bit of the connection to the client, right? They're thinking about how do I get the best, the most revenue for our company, but not necessarily how do I make our clients super successful. And I liked the term growth operations because it feels like that that's more all-encompassing. And so I definitely appreciate that. Yeah, it's probably early days to be talking about it, but I can say that, you know, in my full-time role, we, our new team name is called the Client Engagement Team. And we're thinking about—

I like that.

Yeah, and it's fun. I've been moved out of the client success organization back into marketing. I'm still head of our community, you know, programs, our client advisory board, but I'm on a team called the client engagement team, and we're really thinking a lot about that, right? How do we enable the base of our customers to feel success, have success, and be educated about how to attain success through our products, our partners, and other, you know, connections that we have in the marketplace? And I think that You know, we probably could have just as easily called it the, you know, the growth operations team or the growth team or something like that, but client engagement, I think, hits the mark for us. And I feel like the message is starting to come through in different channels. I've seen it in other organizations too. So really, really exciting stuff. I appreciate the vision you guys are trying to create over there at the GrowthOps Community.

Well, thanks. And let me just add to that too, that I think, you know, You know, when you're talking about from the client perspective, it is the entire customer journey from inception to just the repeat cycle, right? And think about it, partners are left out a lot if you've got a channel model and then operations and how that's supposed to work. You know, it's crazy because a lot of companies that are channel-focused, their engagement with their partners is not operationalize very well. Typically, I run into this a lot, and they struggle with just trying to figure out how to move that in a way to operationalize it. So when you think of the engagement, it's the overall engagement, and that drives brand and awareness, right? I mean, that is the stuff that, you know, like Kleenex and Xerox, you know, getting that branding out there In a way, it starts at the beginning and it follows all the way through, and it's a continuation. And if you're only thinking about one piece of it, you've missed the mark. So that's my, that's my opinion on it, and that's what I continue to see. So it is very interesting talking to people about this concept and how do we put this into action. And it's not going to be easy, but, you know, you got to start somewhere, I suppose, right?

Yeah.

So, so if I could, You know, Michael, I know we have a series of questions and just kind of bringing it back to this notion of revenue operations, you know, my personal opinion at this stage of the revenue operations lifecycle is that it's just largely focused on sales ops. It's tactics to grow sales activity, you know, nurtures and sequences and stuff like that. At least that's what I continue to see in all the little— no, not little, they're actually quite large, the RevOps communities that are out there. And so, so just, just trying to get a sense of, you know, how are you defining RevOps today, Melissa, and what you're seeing through your clients? And, and do you think that it's, it's going to be rolled up into some other kind of, you know, role in the future where there's, like, ideally it's a GrowthOps type of organization or something like that? Like, what are your, what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, it's interesting. What I'm seeing is that people are calling it one thing and doing another, right? And if you think about what it was originally supposed to be, which was sales, marketing, channel, and customer success operations being aligned, you know, that was the whole point of, by the way, for customer relationship management back in the Siebel days before Salesforce was even a thing, it was about aligning those things through data, right? And it was aligning those things through data that was actionable and getting analysis and figuring out how to pivot the business. So it hasn't changed much from that time of that being, you know, customer relationship management. But what happens is organizations get too myopic, right? They go sales operations, marketing channel, and customer operations are afterthoughts, right? I see too many times where I walk in and they have a RevOps team and it's decentralized, which you can do, But when it's decentralized, you know, there has to be project management, there has to be prioritization, there has to be collaboration and transparency in order for that to work. And that usually is not the case because there's always been this natural tension between sales and marketing. You know, like how much of what I've done has attributed to the pipeline? That's, you know, there's always this divide that happens there. Whereas if you're working on a true RevOps team and you do have, you know, that transparency and the communication and the collaboration and all those things that need to be there, works really well. And you'll see that the organizations look at projects holistically, and they look at impact of projects holistically, and they prioritize those projects holistically based on what the business goals are. So it's not that you can't do that. you know, in a decentralized RevOps function where you've got, you know, the different components reporting to different people, it's a lot harder. It definitely is, because working to the same goals under the same team, right, operations teams aren't usually very big. I mean, in big organizations they can seem big, but, you know, per number of salespeople, how many operations people do you have? It's usually a low number. You know, I've yet to walk into an organization that and call me for help and had the right mix of the number of operations people needed for what they actually wanted to accomplish. So, you know, the definition comes back to having a holistic view of customer-facing operations so that you're operationalizing the right things at the right time to get the most out of the business. And if you stick with that definition, you start to really quickly see that you can't do one thing without the other, right? There's ties across everything. And when you start looking at it together, what an impact it makes. I mean, it's just positive impact. People are happier, you're not getting hung up with roadblocks and fixing things. You know, marketing needs something done on the Salesforce side. Sales ops usually is owning the Salesforce database mostly. That's what I see a lot of. And, you know, they're now able to cross-communicate that. And it's prioritized right. You know, it's not, oh, we're going to put in this little widget here, but we're not going to get this data updated because we're on different teams and we have more of a priority to do that for ourselves. So yeah, it takes the— The—

The—

Dumbness out of it.

I'm really interested. I'll be honest, I'm still kind of wrapping my head around your definition of growth operations. That said, What you were just talking about a minute ago and sort of these different definitions, and like, I think John Hughes in the chat chimed in that if you asked 100 people, you get 100 different definitions of what all these things are. Yeah, I think this begs at least 2 questions in my mind. One is, you know, whether it's growth ops the way you define it or revenue ops, the— with this sort of, I think, the more ideal, for lack of a better term, where it covers all those 4 major components from marketing, sales, customer, and partner channel. I think you made a really good point, the partner channel gets ignored a lot. Where should that organization or function be reporting into within an organization, and is there any variance you see in different size companies or industries or things like that? The second, your point about the ratio of people in ops to some other component of the company, whether it's sales, salespeople or marketing or whatever. Why do you think that whenever you go into these places that that ratio is lower than you think it probably should be for the level of where that company is and where it wants to grow to?

Yeah, great question. So I'll start with the first one around definitions and take me back for a second here. I got lost in thought on that second one. So the first question is with the structure and reporting into and what works there. And what I would say is this: it's not a one-size-fits-all; depends on the organization. The most important piece of it is leadership and people, right? Those 2 things, and it's kind of a singular, right? It's the team and that team makeup. And are they growth mindset? Are they collaborative? thinking. Are they more individual contributors or not? Those factors all play into it when I think about how I would organize something. So a smaller organization, let's just say company, right? And let's say that group, that department is 5 people, hopefully. Usually we'll see it much smaller. They'll have like 2. But let's say there's 5 people there. And you have a good strong leader who thinks, you know, big picture on those things and can, you know, guide the team that way. It makes a lot of sense that that person that is leading that team is working with the COO or the CEO and reporting into them directly. So there's a direct line of communications across the executive staff about what's happening and when it's happening and the impact on each portions of the business. for the projects that they're working on and the activities that they're doing. Now, in another case is that you may not have that strong leadership, and that's a huge problem. And I don't want to go too far down that rat hole, but what I'll say is if you have, you know, decent leaders across the different functions, you could essentially create a change control committee and a data governance committee and a project committee right, between those people functioning decentralized, and they could be reporting into sales ops or sales and marketing. The problem with that is you do tend to find that you get sucked into more of the day-to-day stuff and helping with, you know, generating reports and doing those sorts of things and end up less on the strategic projects. So there's a big problem with that because you have to do both. And so it kind of leads into that last piece That last question you asked about, you know, what does that ratio look like? And I will tell you, if you have 10 salespeople, you need to have at least one sales ops person. And I'll see companies, they'll have 50 salespeople and they'll have one. It's like, no, no, no, no. When you're getting up to 50, you need Deal Desk, you need sales enablement, you need the tools, you need somebody who's going to be doing your data analysis. You know, all of a sudden there's all these different things that come in.

Yeah.

When you start getting to that sort of mark where you're a bigger organization, and then that just scales up from there with the enterprise, right?

I mean, all the ops folks just— Yeah, anybody listening right now who's like working in an organization where they're like a team of 1 or 2 for a group of like 50, they all just like threw up their hands and said, praise be to Melissa for saying what we've all been saying.

I always tell people that, you know, one of the toughest tensions is, having been in leadership roles just in marketing ops, is that tension between what I always say is like the highly visible but more tactical stuff of, you know, emails and ads and doing that kind of stuff, but there's a whole bunch more that happens. It's like the iceberg, right? There's a whole bunch more that happens under the surface of the water that is just as important, but not as visible, and it's also hard to quantify. And I think that's part of the challenge on, you know, getting— having ops seen as a strategic part of whether it's a revenue organization or a growth organization or whatever. That, you know, so that's my kind of my view on what that is. But that's one of the things I think, you know, I think part of why Mike wanted to start this community and do these kinds of things is to try to help elevate Everyone's game, if you will, and being able to talk about the strategic importance of it. All right.

Absolutely.

All right, so, you know, let me— this kind of leads into kind of another question, which is tied to that, that you're tied in with your community, you're tied in with some clients. And probably a number of other people, your own experience, right? How do you see a sense that, you know, marketing ops, revenue ops, growth ops, whatever it is, is starting to have a different perception at the leadership level in those organizations and maybe all the way up to the CEO board level at, you know, like startup companies?

I think so. I think it's, I think it has traction. I don't think it's taken off yet. The companies that are more progressive are doing these. So as I'm, you know, finding people and like I'm looking for people to join our community, right? I'm like, I wonder if they're doing this at this company. And, you know, just do some LinkedIn searches and you're looking through titles. And then I find the ones where I'm like, they'll say something like integrated operations. And I'm going, oh, ding, ding, ding, there's one to look at. And then I'll talk to them and they're doing this, right? And they're finding explosive growth off of it. They're finding they can scale faster, they can move faster, and they're gaining revenue faster. And, you know, I said this to, to, uh, Mike Rizzo, that revenue is a result of growth, right?

It is a—

it's a symptom of growth. It isn't the root of it. Growth is what the roots are, right? You don't, you do not grow and do that without having infrastructure in place, right? And the result of that growth is you have happy employees, you have happy customers, you have revenue growth, you have happy investors. So thinking about it that way, when I talk to people, they're like, yeah, that's why we're doing this. You know, we see that the operations itself are technical typically, You know, they're process-focused, they're data-focused, but at the end of the day, when we have the strategy discussion about here are the things that we need to be doing, it just changes the game. And they're getting that seat at the table to talk about strategic operations projects, whereas they weren't able to do that before. And then there are companies that are flailing around with it. They're like, ooh, this sounds exciting, and they're trying to do it, and they may be successful for a while, but If you're not doing it where you're really starting, you're starting with a framework where you're going to be able to say, you know, we're just going to start with an operations team in sales that is also working with the marketing operations team, right? That's what I— that's the most of what I see. If they're not thinking about, you know what, we eventually need to hook into customer operations and hook into channel operations, right? They're not thinking about that and moving in that direction and structuring themselves, to be able to basically envelope that stuff in at a later date, they're gonna, they're gonna hit a wall, right? They're gonna hit the wall. They're gonna say, oh gosh, what do we need to be doing here? And then they're gonna realize, oh, if we just would have involved these people in our conversations when we built this stuff, it would have been much better, right? And that's, that's what you find a lot of it. It's just there's a lot of silo that happens in operations that could be avoided by just this collaboration. It doesn't necessarily mean a complete organizational shift. It means a mindset shift.

Yeah, that's a great point. I loved your statement. I probably butchered exactly what you said, but I think you said something like revenue is a symptom, is not the right word, but an outcome from growth. And I think that really helps the distinction, I think, of what you were talking about between revenue ops and growth ops, right? Growth ops has a broader view of the overall growth of the company, and revenue is just sort of one of the things that should just come out of that. Very interesting take on it. So there, you know, I mentioned Naomi Liu was one of our normal co-hosts, but she did have a question for you that is somewhat specific, and I would love to get your thought on this. And it has to do with, you know, some companies have a product or service that includes professional services that are either part of it or also kind of an add-on that you can get. And she has seen a few places where that professional services function is actually rolled up into a revenue ops or some other ops team as opposed to kind of being part of whatever product team or whatever. She was just curious if you've seen that before, and if you have, have you seen it work well, not well, kind of Again, kind of a very specific question there.

I don't know if we— for some reason we lost your audio there, Melissa.

Okay, well, there we go.

So she has nothing to say. No, sorry folks, technical glitch. Looks like we lost Melissa's audio.

Let's so we'll continue on. There she is. Oh, all right. Lost her again.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yep.

So fun fact about me. Can you guys hear me?

Yeah.

Okay. Can you hear me? Yep. Back. Okay, so fun fact, fun fact, I live on the backside of Pendleton down in Southern California, and it seems that when they do tactical training like they're doing today, this happens with our phones and our internet. So I apologize. But so back to center on this one, I was saying about the professional services and that rolling up. Some— that's a strange decision. I don't know why somebody would do that. I would think that that would fall more on an enablement and onboarding. Professional services is not— it's not case handling, right? It's not customer success. It's literally delivering a service. So for that to sit under RevOps is a little strange to me, for sure. I would think that that would sit under professional services organization with a leader and that there'd be operations around that, but it wouldn't be reporting into a RevOps team. That kind of doesn't make logical sense to me, to be blunt.

That's okay. Blunt is good. I think, I think the role, Michael, correct me if I'm wrong, it rolled, ultimately rolled into maybe like a CRO function or something like that. And I think that was interesting. I don't want to misspeak, but I'm pretty sure, with pretty great certainty, that ours rolls into a Chief Customer Officer role.

Yes.

So that, that's where it sits with us.

It's a customer function. You're delivering to a customer, whereas you're selling to a customer, you're marketing to a customer, right? What's the verb that's being used? I like to use that as my way of defining things, right? What do you— what's your main goal of something? And that's what it is, right? Because This whole CXO thing is hilarious to me. I'm always like, what letter is going to get added in next? And what is it going to stand for? And how confused are we going to be about it for how long? So yeah, that one definitely would seem to me that would be under like a Chief Customer Officer. But a revenue officer, again, you know, you said something earlier, it's kind of selfish, right? It's about revenue. And in a service function, it's all about the customer. So that's why it makes sense to me That when you're delivering something to a customer, especially where there is, you know, person-to-person engagement, that you would want that under a customer umbrella because it would be treated much differently.

Yeah, yeah.

So kind of, and I think we're kind of close to wrapping up, but I do, I would love to get your take, Melissa, on, because I think this is a general theme that we've had across our different episodes, is, you know, for those people who are either in marketing ops or interested in ops roles in general, and specifically revenue ops or growth ops the way we've talked about them today. What, you know, any suggestions you have for folks who want to, who are interested in those kind of roles, to kind of, whether it's to be, you know, an individual contributor or a leadership role, resources, whatever that you suggest that they go to, to kind of make that move?

So I'll say this, I think mentorship and finding people To help you is the best path to take. And it's, it's interesting, people get a little scared of doing this. I think I definitely know early on in my career it was something I was like, oh my gosh, I'm asking somebody for something and I don't have anything to really feel like I'm giving in return. But there, people love to help other people, and if they don't, well, shame on them. But, um, helping other people throughout their career. So a couple of things, um, is in getting into the communities, right? The MoPros community, the GrowthOps community. You also have Rev Genius, Women in Revenue, terrific communities to go into and to join up. And each of those have job boards in them and they have people to talk to, right? There's going to be people. If you pose a question out there, you're going to find people. You could also just go on LinkedIn and poke somebody and say, hey, listen, I'm interested in doing this. Because, I mean, if somebody said to me, hey, I want to contact you, I want to talk about, you know, what career path, I'd be like, sure. You know, let's talk. And I've done a lot of mentoring, and I will say that, you know, that's a starting point. The most important thing to know in getting into operations is that you have to like data, and you have to like detail. And those two things, if you hate it, please don't do it because you will be miserable.

Totally.

It'll be like the worst thing that you ever did in your life or something.

Yeah, like the worst.

chore that you're doing every day.

Yeah, it'll, it'll just make you sick thinking, oh my gosh, I have to wake up and clean data today, you know. And because that's really getting started, that's the starting point. A lot of people come in and, you know, they have them doing data stewardship sort of work and cleaning things and, you know, just very tactical work. But it all leads into understanding things, right? I mean, you start with data to learn process, and you're like, where does this data come from and how does it get in, right? That's why we Start people there.

So, yeah. And then, like, how does it serve the organization? Like, if you don't get excited about a pivot table, like, it's probably not, probably not the right place for you to be, right?

Yeah.

I, I, I intentionally took on a project recently from someone that doesn't have time, and I was like, I, no, I really wanna download that data and I really wanna analyze it. I'm not a data analyst, but I really want to do this. It's so far that I can, like, maybe get some answers and then hand it off to somebody who's smarter than me. But yeah, I'm really excited about that. I love that.

And you have to like technology because you live in tools. There's no doubt about that. Even if you're building process, you're going to need to use tools to build your process. You know, you're going to need to be OK with, you know, using all different sorts of things at a different time because there's so many tools across all of these functions that, that at any given point, like especially going client to client and not being a full-time employee at a company, I get so much exposure to so many different tools, and you learn so much doing that. It's very overwhelming, there's no doubt about it. So it doesn't matter if you're year 1 in your career, year 5, year 10— I'm over 20— I still get overwhelmed at times from the tools. But it's a necessary part of the job. I frankly love it, but it can get overwhelming. So yeah, definitely need to know that as well.

Well, and we had an episode, um, one or two ago that was specifically about what is included in marketing tech, because I think those of us who have been in it a while had a certain view of it, and this report that came out really broadened it, right, all the way down to things like Excel or Google Sheets or whatever that you think of as a tool, but maybe not part of your martech stack, so to speak. So I think that's right, there's always new stuff. Any last-minute Thoughts or suggestions that you guys either want to share before we kind of wrap things up?

I just have one last question. It's a little self-serving for you, Melissa, and self-serving for MoPros, I think, but I'm on a mission to try to define what it means to be a certified marketing operations professional, and I would love to hear your thoughts on what you think it means to be a truly certified marketing operations professional.

Yeah, I think, I think of things in these buckets all the time as people, process, technology. And so if you're certified in doing this, you need to be at a certain level, right, in each of those areas. So from a people would be project management and collaboration and, and that management piece of just not managing the work, but managing team members and managing up. I think that's very important. to, to get a handle on that and some coaching on managing conflict because there are, there's conflict with priorities all the time. So I think that's one. The next with process is really having all the different processes down, right? What's the process for MQL? What's the process for handing leads over to sales and all the different subsets that are in there, right? So understanding that the process across different types of marketing tactics and different deliverability channels that are out there. And it doesn't mean all of them, but really understanding how that works, right? So asking somebody the question of, you know, what would you do to implement a lead-to-sales funnel for MQLs, right? I would think that somebody who's a marketing ops professional absolutely knows needs to know how to do that. And then from a technology perspective, I think there's a couple things there, right? There's a lot of different technologies, but we know there's core. And the core technologies are typically you're going to find, you know, Pardot, Salesforce Marketing Cloud, you're going to find Marketo, Eloqua, HubSpot. You know, there's, there's so many to list on there, but, you know, having at least one of those tools where they're certified on it, um, or they have a lot of experience experience using it. Because I'll tell you, I don't go and get my certifications on Marketo, and it's because I don't have time. But I also have been doing, you know, Marketo for as long as it's been around, so it's kind of like, what's the point? Um, and Salesforce or, you know, Microsoft Dynamics, they definitely should have a CRM certification as well as an admin. And also, um, on just the Marketing Cloud piece in Salesforce, even if you're not using that But how campaigns work and how leads and contacts work. So I think if you took all of those 3 things together, that to me would be the right makeup of how I would coach and certify somebody on marketing operations.

Very good. I appreciate that. Thank you.

Hey, Melissa, this has been fantastic. Really appreciate you joining us today. Where can people find you? Not like where you are physically, but Yeah.

Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm also in the growthopscommunity.org in our Slack and community there. Those are probably the 2 best ways to find me. And then feel free to email me. It's Melissa, M-E-L-I-S-S-A, at Navigate, N as in Nancy, A-V-I-G-A-T-E, cg.com. And I'm happy to answer questions. And again, I put it out there, if someone's looking for questions about their career and needs some help, I am here to help.

Fantastic. Awesome.

Fantastic.

This is great. So thank you, Melissa. Thank you, Mike. Thanks for all the people who put in some great questions in the chat. It was really exciting to have that. If you, as always, if you have suggestions or requests for future topics or guests, Let us know. You can find all of us, Mike, Naomi, me, on LinkedIn. You can also go to themopros.com, T-A-T-M-O-P-R-O-S.com, and either join the community if you're not and join us in Slack. Our next episode is actually scheduled or will be scheduled soon if it's not online yet, but it's planned for March 25th at 12 PM Pacific time. So a little bit later than today, and we're going to have a guest that'll be Jen Spencer, who's the recently Promoted to CRO at SmartBug Media. So we're really looking forward to that, learning a little bit about a different career path. And as always, you know, send us your feedback, share this. We are here for you. With that, it's a wrap. Thanks everyone.

Thanks.

Thanks everybody. Bye-bye. Thanks, Melissa.

Bye.