Stop Performing at Work And Start Rehearsing With Kira Troilo

Hi, I'm Michael Hartman.

I'm Naomi Liu.

And I'm Mike Rizzo, and this is OpsCast, a podcast for marketing ops pros and rev ops pros created by the MoPros, the number one community for marketing operations professionals.

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Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by marketingops.com and powered by all the MoPros out there. I'm host, Michael Hartmann. Today's episode is going to hit on something that shows up in almost every organization, but we don't usually talk about it directly. That is, why is it so hard for teams to say what they actually think? Nod along with me if you know this one. Why do we nod in meetings only to raise concerns later in Slack or in side conversations? And why does so much work get, quote, approved only to be reopened at the last minute? So, joining me today, my guest is Kira Troilo. She has a really interesting perspective on this. She spent 2 decades in theater before founding Art and Soul Consulting, where she now helps teams collaborate more effectively, especially when the work is complex, creative, and involves a lot of feedback. What she's observed is that most teams are operating in what she calls performance mode, where everyone is being polite, careful, and trying to get it right. But what they actually need is rehearsal mode, where it's safe to be messy, disagree early, and surface the truth before it becomes expensive. So, we're going to get into why politeness can actually be a hidden source of inefficiency, how rework, fire drills, misalignment are often symptoms of deeper issues, agreed, what it looks like to intentionally design how our team collaborates, and how to create environments where people can give honest feedback to get earlier. So, Kira, welcome to the show, and why can't we all just get along?

I mean, I think we'd have a lot of money if we could answer that, but I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, this is great. Well, let's like, so I think it's interesting. Let's start with your background, right? You spent 2 decades in theater and then in 2020 you had to rethink it. So what was the trigger for that, the catalyst, if you will? What did you start noticing about how people communicate, especially around difficult topics?

Yeah. So really, everything I have learned really about this topic about business in general has been in rehearsal rooms and theater. Like you said, I was an actor in rehearsal rooms. I've been behind the table as well as a choreographer, director. And, you know, 2020 made us all stop. Obviously, the theater industry was just completely halted.

Mm-hmm.

So, a lot of us who were on this track of just kind of go, go, go in theater spaces had to sit back and take stock. For me, I'm a writer. So, you know, I was at home with a 2-year-old, you know, just trying to kind of figure out what is my life and what, what are my experiences worth and what am I supposed to do? So I started really just writing about my experiences in theater. And what I surfaced was actually a missing job that I, that I could pinpoint.

Yeah.

And what it really was, was You know, I was in these rooms as an actor. And for people who can't see, who are just listening, like, I am a Black mixed-race person.

Yeah.

So, there were situations where I was actually helping teams have a difficult conversation around, you know, like, what does it mean if we have a Black actor playing a Latin American character? We just weren't talking about it. Yeah, we were just doing it. So, You know, fast forward, I could really pinpoint all these experiences where I had actually performed a role that I wasn't hired for, which was to help the team collaborate under pressure while surfacing truths that we were afraid of. So, rather than tiptoe, kind of saying, hey, let's talk about this thing actually, so that we don't end up at the end of this process with, you know, a question from the press that we actually can't answer.

That's so cool.

So, yeah, so that I really just jumped, you know, headfirst into the idea that I had a company that was solving a problem that we all recognized but hadn't quantified. And that was 2022. I started Art and Soul Consulting and I, uh, just emailed 40 theaters and said, hey, will you take a chance on me that I have surfaced this job? Luckily, some of them said yes, and off we were.

So, do I get to say that I've been in theater because I was in a flash mob dancing, which is crazy to imagine?

You do. Yeah. I mean, that's every single person I talk to has something that they like light up about around theater. So yes, I just saw you light up about the flash mob.

Yeah. I mean, it's something that was probably before stepping out and doing this podcast was probably the most out there thing I've ever done. But I'm so glad I did it. Yes. Oh my gosh.

Yeah, it sparks for everyone. And I think it's so— it's been interesting to go to folks and say, I have this theater methodology. And immediately, people are like, oh, theater. I love theater, improv. And I'm like, yes, all of that. And I think we've actually figured out something very, very important for all creative environments and all team environments.

It's funny. I think I told you this when we first talked, but if I didn't, shame on me. But you're at least the second person I know we've talked to who has a significant theater background. You did, you did. Yeah, yeah. So, I think it's interesting that there's this crossover between the challenges that go with all the logistics and organizing, the preparation that goes into theater. Like, there's this corollary, it feels like, in ops world.

Absolutely. I mean, yeah, it's like the most high-stakes environment you can be a part of is theater, where people will literally meet for the first time, and 4 weeks later, or less in many cases, they are performing for hundreds and thousands of people. So, you think about like a marketing team that has a project to execute, they actually have a lot more going for them than in a theater environment where we have to move so fast.

Yeah.

So there's just so much to be learned from those environments when done right.

Yeah. And you have to adapt in the moment, right? So—

Exactly.

We at least have a little bit of a lifeline with like, oh, we can pull something back or redo it. And, you know, in many cases—

In theater, it's right, right. Theater, it's live. It's, it, it just is. Um, yep. So you have to prepare to get to the point where it's not a crisis. You know, when something goes wrong when you're live.

Yeah. Well, let's, so let's dive right in. I mean, you, you, you've said that, um, most breakdowns in communication or issues happen because people don't speak up early enough. So I'm curious, like, what is your take on what's really going on there and why aren't people doing that? I have some theories, but I wanna hear yours.

Definitely. And I think, I think I have a unique perspective here, because I think what I hear a lot of folks say is it's about bravery and confidence, and it's a personal thing. You have to get, you know, to this place where you can speak up. And I disagree with that.

Okay. I really—

yeah, hot take here. I think it doesn't matter how brave individuals are if the environments aren't designed to hold that bravery.

Hmm.

So, if a leader hasn't designed a space where it feels less risky to tell the truth than it is to hold your tongue, no one is going to actually speak up. So, I think what's happening when people don't speak up is that what they're afraid of is their vision of what is going to happen to them if they do. So, they're actually operating from the fear of the unknown.

Yeah.

It feels too risky and expensive to say the true thing, so they'll keep it to themselves. Whereas the difference being, if a leader said, you know, I wanna design an environment that's built on the assumption that we are going to make mistakes. Now, let's talk about what we need to be able to speak up to surface those, and how can we talk to each other, and what tools do we need? That's a different environment, and that signals to individuals, oh, This is a space where they actually do want me to say the hard thing.

Yeah. Well, and I think there's a nuance here. It's funny, you mentioned you have young children and I think like a lot of this, like a lot of this is sort of, for lack of a better term, beat into us, right? To just try to not upset people. And if I could do some things over as a parent, I probably would let things play out a little more, you know, with like, because of the, People do want to get along, but like, it gets short-circuited. So they never learn it when they're younger.

Right. And yeah, I mean, I have, I have 2 kids and one of them is a baby, but one of them is 8. And we're hitting this now where, you know, he's at this age where he's starting to say things that maybe in past generations, it would be like, no, no, no, don't, don't say that. Don't speak up. And it's hard, but I'm trying to lean into like, nope, I want you to be able to say the thing. You know, and, and we'll navigate it together because otherwise I know that, you know, a kid will just go silent.

Yeah.

And then you actually can't figure out what's going on if you can't provide the space for them to share the real thing. So it's, it's really hard, but yeah, being a parent is probably the single most, um, effective growth tool for me as a business person.

I was just talking to somebody earlier today about how I should have written a book at some point and said, oh, everything I learned about how to manage people came from being a parent. Because these adult humans in some business environments act a lot like toddlers.

Uh-huh. Oh, my son is in Montessori school, and I'm like, we just need that curriculum in all these professional environments. Just grace and courtesy and kindness and follow your passion. It's really, yeah, we could use that as adults.

Yeah, it's funny. Yeah. I mean, there is a little bit of a risk of this saying the thing, I think that's what you said. And that I still think there's a little bit of, and maybe this is what you were getting at when we'll work through it together, is like, I think there's a, it's a skill to be learned how to say the thing without completely damaging a relationship.

Yes. Oh, there's definitely skill in that too. Yeah, it's both. You know, it's like if a leader can create a container for it, and then we can also develop the skills as humans, as team members, then we kind of have the perfect combination for rehearsal mode, which is what I talk so much about, is like the circumstances, right? Where we can try and be messy and fail.

Yeah.

And all those things that lead to productive growth.

Okay. You use that term rehearsal mode, like, and I think you also talk about performance mode. So like, walk us through what you mean by those things and how it might, like contextually, how it fits into the business world.

Totally. Yeah. So, the terms obviously come from my experience in theater where it's like what you see is the performance, but what actually makes it happen is underneath. So, literally rehearsal mode. But this is kind of the scenario I've been walking people through outside of theater that seems to resonate is, you know, like imagine any meeting you've been a part of. I'm going to assume people are imagining themselves not as the leader. So, you're in the room listening to your leader. Okay. And then the leader is sharing this initiative with a timeline that you know is not feasible. You can see about 5 ways this can go wrong, right? Like, but you're probably still just nodding along unless you have an amazing team where they've designed this the way I'm saying. People are nodding and it's, you know, it's polite and it's fine.

Yeah.

And then what happens? The whole team goes to Slack, the whole team goes to Teams, you know, and it's like, oh my God, can you believe this? Why do they think this can happen? Have we even considered what happened last time?

Why didn't they ask me about this? Right? Yeah. Yep.

Exactly. Exactly. So, the truth is there. That's my thesis is like, it's the truth is all over, but what we're not seeing in that meeting is that ability to be messy. We're seeing performance mode, and that is where people nod and smile and agree, Visually because it feels safer and easier to do that. So, just think about how much truth could actually save the project down the road if what happened in Slack could actually be said in the meeting.

Yeah. Well, and it's, it's, I, when I think about this as a leader, like I, I, I have a little bit of self-awareness and know that like I tend to be optimistic, so I need people who are gonna check that. And so I actually looked for that in that sort of example, right? But I'm a big believer in, I want really vigorous debate, discussion about anything that's important.

Yeah.

Because I truly believe that surfaces the best options, right? Now, that doesn't mean we'll always go with what that person wants, but it means that we all at least have some input. That we have a realistic view of like, okay, this is what the challenges are going to be, and maybe we're going to have to put in extra effort or whatever, that you get everybody behind it then, right? So, there's an—

That's right.

They have a vested interest in the outcome.

Right, right, exactly. And that is everything. It's rather than being like a top-down mandate, it's a co-created environment. So, right, it's like your idea might not always win, but at least it's heard. And that's huge.

Yeah. So I want to see if I can play this back to you. So when you talk about rehearsal mode, performance mode, it's really more of establishing an environment where rather than— so if we go ahead and take that scenario again, you go into a meeting and there's some, basically it's a one-way communication. Everyone's sort of performing and nodding their heads and agreeing, Whereas if it was a rehearsal mode environment, that would be a little more of a 2-way, like multidirectional kind of conversation or discussion. Is that, am I capturing it correctly there?

Yes, yes, quite literally, yes. And it, you know, I think of even a physical design of a space. So, you know, if a leader is speaking at the front of a room to the a team who's just looking at them straight on, like for fans of The Office, that's one of my favorite shows, like that conference room where you're just looking at the boss.

Yep.

You are signaling that there is a person who says the thing and the people who listen. But what if we are all around a table in a circle and we're all in the same, we are all looking at each other, there's no hierarchy in the physical design. Then we're signaling that we need more voices in this conversation. So, you know, it's like even those little things can signal to a team that they are a part of it rather than top-down.

Yeah, we just had another guest on who's got a book out called Loving Conflict, and her thing about—

Good titles.

Yeah, she had a similar thing about like the space matters, and she's like, she actually hates it when there's a table in between people.

Mm-hmm.

For like a really like tough conversation. And I was like, oh, that's actually really like, I, it gets easy to get comfortable sitting behind a desk or between each other on a, have a table in between. So.

Yes. The table speaks like, you know, the table is a design element in the room that says there is a separation between us. So I fully agree with that.

Yeah. I think it's really interesting. Um, So that's a great point. So you've talked about, we talked about before when you have in theater, right? You have a first rehearsal and you talked about it being a time to set expectations. So again, kind of applying that to the business world, how is this, like, is this a way that you would think about telling somebody, like, here's how you would say, they might go, yeah, I want to be in a, have a rehearsal mode environment. And we wanna start that. Is this like, is this how you would start it? Is like, think of it as a first rehearsal or is that a different concept? Tell, tell me about that.

No, it's exactly what it, what it is. I, so when I started this work, it started it in the theater environments where I came up. And what I know about those environments is you kind of go in the first day, everyone waves and nods and is nervous. You kind of introduce everyone and then you jump into what we call the table read. for theater people there. So like, you just get to work. So where I inserted myself was in theater, there's no time. So I'm like, listen, just give me 30 minutes during the first rehearsal. And I think that I can make a big difference in how this team operates. So I designed first rehearsals to kind of get out of our way of what expectations we were bringing that we weren't saying. So I'll give you like my number one trick is don't say, you know, here's— here are the ways to make a mistake, or here's what not to do. It's to say, listen, we're going to make mistakes. We're going to mess up. People are going to step in it. What do we do when that happens? Not if that happens. What do we do when that happens?

Love that.

So, at first rehearsal, we are signaling, okay, I don't have to be perfect. I'm going to mess up. You know, and like, in theater, we're telling stories about trauma and power and race. Like, someone's going to say the wrong thing. So, if we can get over that and say, okay, when I say the wrong thing, we can agree that, you know, we can address it, we can repair, we can use these communication tools that I, you know, can talk about later that we've developed that can help people kind of talk through it and move past it.

Yeah.

And move through it, I should say, more quickly. So, I took that first rehearsal design and essentially said, We can use this in meetings. Just take the pressure and fear out of the scary things. It's like, we're going to mess up, so let's talk it through. What happens when we do? And just that alone, I'll tell you, it feels so simple, but it just— that rather than saying we are in rehearsal mode, like—

Right.

You have actually started to have a conversation about the how, How are we going to do this messy stuff?

Yeah. I love that idea of just saying like, there will be mistakes. There will be people who say things that might offend you or hurt your feelings or whatever. And like, we are going to agree upfront that we're going to handle that in a way that's meant to move things forward as opposed to create wedges. Right. I just think that's the way I think about it.

Yeah, exactly.

It feels like that would be a great tool for someone coming into a new team, right, as a leader, to use that as a way of building that from the get-go. I think it would, and it would be especially good for someone who's coming into a team where that wasn't the norm, right? Right.

Yeah, and it gives people, you know, I find, because I've gone into rooms where, you know, we'll talk about my idea of the silence tax, but Yes. Where there's, there's a, yes, there's like a, a very visceral feeling of silence and things people are afraid to say. Um, and I found that this 30-minute conversation to start is a great way to surface some tensions without having to assign blame. So, you know, I'm thinking, for example, like maybe there's some unchecked egos on the team, which never happens with creative people, right?

No.

Um, but then we have a space to say, okay, you know, we are all people who care deeply about this. Something that could get in our way is egos. So, like, let's talk about a way to signify that that's happening. If it does happen, where should the feedback go? Where, you know, are there times, like, maybe every Friday meeting, we start with, like, what, what is the feedback that we need to be surfacing? What are some things that it might be hard to say? In my very small team, we call it Feedback Fridays. You know, it's like, let's, let's actually carve the space out so that— We're not holding things for too long, and it's like an expectation that we're going to say the things we need to surface on, you know, 10 to 11 AM on Friday mornings.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Does this apply both in terms of like team meetings as well as like one-on-ones kind of conversations as well?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Um, uh, it's a good example, I think, of that is I actually, I have a podcast of my own and I had a conversation with someone who is very politically opposite me.

Yeah.

And I was very adamant for both of us that we get together and we kind of agree, not on topic, but also, but to agree, like, where are the places where we can have a productive conversation? What's off balance? Like, what's off limits? Where could we lose it? And if we break the things we've said, what happens then? So what it led to is like an amazing conversation where we really, like, we found the bridges.

The common ground. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, we found those and we had a conversation where we didn't have to agree, but like we both came out of it with a different, something different we took away from it that was actually productive.

What I find when I get those kinds of conversations is that I walk away and go, at least I understand the perspective. And I find like, I don't, I may not agree. It's Well, how am I going to think of this? Like there's some people say, like there's one person in particular who says, famous person says, you know, facts don't care about your feelings. And I actually really viscerally don't like that because—

Yeah.

I think it assumes that there can't be more than one point of view about a set of facts, right? I think there's a lot. And I think that's really, really important. Like we can disagree But I have like a set of built-in sort of beliefs that drive how I interpret that. And I think that's a different thing than saying you are a bad person or you're just wrong or whatever. Like, right. And I think that's a, I've had to learn that skill.

Yeah.

It's not an easy thing. It is a skill. Yeah. And I, it's not a soft skill. It is just a skill, period.

Mm-hmm. I like all these things that are quote soft skills, I think are like the hardest skills. And in this age of like AI, you know, these human skills are actually the most important and valuable, I really do think.

Yeah. It's funny, the reason I asked, so it's, I still have the, I still very vividly remember, it was like, I don't know, it was like 2 weeks into a new job at a company where I didn't really know anybody. I was, I didn't have a team built. I had, you know, so it was just me and a lot of other people, consultants and stuff. But the office next to me happened to be the creative director at this company. We were both there late one evening and we just started chatting. She happened to be Russian originally, and we started talking about religion and politics, 2 topics that should be off limits in a work environment, right? And we didn't agree, kind of like you, we didn't always agree. It's a great conversation. Yes.

And you were in person. In person, yeah. I can go, yeah, I mean, I think all the things I'm talking about are actually what the world needs. And, you know, in my corner, I'm like, we, we can do that. But right, we've just gotten so used to, for, for a variety of reasons, like, you know, shooting off our opinion and then walking away. And, you know, it's, it's these really hard skills of, of recognizing that we can be in conversation and not agree, and it doesn't have to get contentious. And we can stay involved, you know, we can, we can actually stay in it. And if we do, then we're going to get so much more done than if we kind of turn that off.

The only pushback I would have is it can be contentious, and that's okay.

Yes. And right in the rehearsal mode, you agree, like, okay, when it gets contentious, how are we going to operate? And that's better than when it actually just gets contentious and you haven't talked about it in advance. It's always easier to say, hey, that's right, you completely shut down. And on day 1, if we had calmly on the first day said, hey, we're There's probably going to be some contentious moments. You know, let's set some ground rules for that now that we can hold onto and some tools we might be able to pull from the toolbox when that happens.

Yeah, I love that. So, okay, so you've got the first, first one. Um, so you, you've mentioned this a couple of times, right? You've got some frameworks and tools, like what, um, maybe walk us through a couple of those high level. Like what do you, what do you, where would you start? Where would you tell somebody to start?

Sure. Yeah. So, the main framework that we have is called STAGES, appropriately. It's an acronym.

Of course.

Yeah. So, the first—

I love a good acronym.

I love an acronym. And because I love acronyms, I've actually, because STAGES is 6 steps, I've condensed it to 3 for very easy understanding, and I've called that one ACT. So, the 3 things I think teams need to do are, number one, align on the context. Like, if you don't understand what truths are in the space, literally, like, what is true about those people coming in? Who are they? What is the project? What is the world right now? What are the circumstances that we're dealing with? What's the bandwidth of the team?

Yeah.

We need that information before we go in to try to design the how. So, the first is aligning. The second is the C, like, we have to co-create. the context. So, rather than top-down, let's all get together and agree how we're going to operate. And the T is the hardest and the most important, which is take notes.

Yeah.

In theater, we've perfected the note is, you know, like you rehearse something and it works or doesn't, and the director will give a note, just like a short little, like, try it this way, or what happens if you do this? So, the thing I love about theater is we've figured out like a very bite-sized digestible way incorporate feedback constantly.

Okay.

So, right, send to other teams.

So, that's not what I expected to hear when you said take notes. I assumed, like, literally take notes.

And it can be, it's that too. But, but the, the quick theater note, I think, is important because it shouldn't just be that we do the postmortem and that's where the notes are. It should be that we get comfortable with feedback flying daily, regularly, because it is a skill. It's a muscle.

Yeah. And it doesn't have to be a compliment sandwich. Right.

No, I mean, it does when you haven't practiced, you know, like, but if it's just a normal thing that you've, you know, cuz the, the beauty of all of this is once you're in rehearsal mode and you've figured it out, you move a lot faster because you, you totally, you, right. It's like, you know, your sandbox that you're playing in.

Yeah.

So, um, so yeah, so it's aligning, co-creating the agreements and taking notes. And I think the, the first and the last is really where I see teams slack or forget that you can't do like a set it and forget it for every team. You have to understand, right? Like you said, is there a new team member coming in? Is there a burnout crisis? Are we implementing, you know, an AI tool and people haven't even talked about how they feel about it? So, that context starts everything, right?

Yeah. Okay. Can I push back a little bit? All right. Well, so you mentioned this earlier, you talked about the silence tax, and I think I was telling somebody about this the other, just earlier today, and I think I got the name wrong. So, but the idea is silence tax. I love this idea that there's a, there's a hidden, I think in my economics mind, I would go opportunity cost or, but whatever, it's a hidden cost of politeness, right? So maybe break that down a little bit. Like, what does that mean to you? And then Why, why do you think it's, I think you would say it's expensive to organizations. I would probably tend to agree. Why do you think that's the case?

Yes. And thank you. I'm so glad you, you were using the term and found it helpful. I'm really, um, struggling to articulate how bad this problem is. And I think in a lot of cases, They kind of shove it as culture work, or, you know, this is wishy-washy feelings, all of that. So, you know, really just 6 months ago, I was like, okay, I think I really need to go deep into research here and quantify the number, because I know how expensive it is when, for example, like, as a mediator, there's a tension brewing, and I've talked to these 3 people, and I see the blowup that's about to happen in 3 weeks. But they won't listen to me until the blowup. So, what I did was kind of went back in the process and said, okay, where was the truth actually available but wasn't surfaced, right? This is like if there's a huge—

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. So, like, think about like a huge HR crisis or a lawsuit. You go back and you say, okay, if the truth had actually been said at that first meeting, Think about the time saved, you know, time saved, of course, but, um, the cost of hiring a new employee when the employee quits.

Yeah.

Um, maybe that employee had been updating their resume for 6 months and hadn't said anything. So, you're left with a crisis to handle where even if we had tracked back 6 months ago, if we knew what was going on with that employee, even if they were gonna leave, think about the cost change in having the 6-month runway versus this person just like picked their stuff up, left, and now you have to deal with this. So, there's that. There's the rework cycles. I know this is big in your world. It's like—

Yeah.

If we're on version 20, right, or 30, what is the cost of the truth having been available at version 3, but not surfacing until version 20? That is an actual financial number, you know, like—

Or a doubt. And that's, I think I shared with you like a real example of that happening in a place where I was. And it was like, and I was like, I kept my mouth shut because it was like almost too many voices or, and this was a creative thing in particular. And it was, I think, seeking what that person would call beautiful or perfection. And I was like, there is no such thing, right? It's It's not a universal thing.

Right. No, like, great. Let's define what does beautiful mean to this team? You know, like, let's have that conversation. But yeah, it is, you know, there is an actual quantifiable cost to rework, to quiet quitting or whatever you want to call it, to launches that get missed. I recently talked to a very big company who, you know the company, and they told me that there were, I think it was like $5 million it cost them when something got to the finish line, but then something surfaced that actually prevented them from launching. $5 million.

It's crazy.

When all we actually needed to do, right, was create the circumstances where the person who had that knowledge earlier could have set without— that's the cost.

Without the fear, right?

Without the fear. Without the fear. Yeah. So I actually calculated, so I, I I did like, okay, if we have a 30-person creative team, average salary of, I think I put it at like $85K, the average silence tax is $500,000 a year. And it's actually in researchable, concrete numbers. So, now I don't go in and say, well, your team has a culture problem. I say, what is the cost of silence on your team? I can show you.

Yeah. So, it's interesting. So, that really does fall into the opportunity cost one, but it was I hadn't really thought about it. Like, to me, I was immediately going to the efficiency. Are we doing a lot of rework? And I don't know why, but it never even occurred to me to think about the actual like HR, legal kinds of potential issues that could be out there as well. I mean, that is truly not only expensive on its own, right? It is like, there's a reputational impact too, which is even like, it's kind of brand affecting and all that. So.

Yes.

That's, um, okay. I'm, I'm in. I believe you now.

Yay, you're on board. Yeah, it's, that's what's frustrating to me is like, this is not, you know, obviously it's difficult to practice these skills and get like that, that is hard, but it's not, it's not hard in the sense of like the solutions are not more tools or more workflow or more structure. It's, it's actually more human. It's more human.

Yeah, because I think, I suspect a lot of people in our world would go like, oh, we'll just put more process or more technology into place and that'll fix it. And I agree with you, like that to me, this like amount of rework and how long it takes to get stuff out the door and changes at the last minute when the final person who actually has to approve it, right, gets involved and it's not what they were expecting. Like, to me, that's a signal of a lack of trust. Yes. Right. Everything we talked about here, like the words that keep coming to mind are trust and, and, um, what's the right word? Like forgiveness is close enough, right? But, you know, like it's not the right word. Uh, anyway. I think trust is so key to this, right?

Yes.

And not assuming intent. I think that's a big, that's the underlying factor too.

Big one. Big one. Yeah. Trust. I mean, trust is not inherent. Trust is something that has to be intentionally built over time. And do you know, I say trust is, you need evidence for trust. So, have you read James Clear's Atomic Habits?

I am not. I need to.

I highly recommend it. It's such a good book and I use it in a different way, but of course he says, yeah, of course that's, you know, my brain thinks like a theater person. But it's, you know, he says it's like to build a habit, it's these little increments, you know, these little votes for the kind of person that you want to be. So it happens in like, you know, I want to be a, I want to run a marathon, but that starts with like putting my shoes On when I get out of bed.

Yeah. Well, it's getting up on a mat first, right? Setting your alarm the night before. Like, it's like, I, yeah, I get it.

Yeah. Right, right. But I think it's the same thing with trust. It's like you put these little bids in. So, if I say this like little thing, how is it received? And, and the way it gets handled well, that, that becomes evidence for me that, oh, okay, this is an environment where I might be able to trust and be braver and, you know, yada, yada, yada. So, it's like when the leaders say, oh, my door's always open, but no, No one ever comes in. It's like, well, they don't know what happens once they go in that door. They haven't seen the evidence.

Well, and I think, okay, so I thought of the word I was trying to get out of my head is grace, right? You gotta have grace too. That's sort of like the two sides of a coin there. Like trust and grace go together in my mind. Yeah.

That like, we're not gonna be perfect. No one's gonna be perfect. So it's like, let's take that off the table and start from there.

Yeah. I think I was telling somebody the other day, like I've probably said, I'm sorry more as a parent than anything, any other time in my life. Right. It's just like screw up all the time. Right.

Right. Like we're at, yeah. Right. It's just when you take that pressure off of like, yeah, I am not, I am not a perfect parent. And, you know, I can say that to my kid. I'm not, you know, that's just the reality. Like let's, let's have a growth mindset and do this together.

Yeah, no, I think that's great. Yeah, I mean, but like everything we talked about, like those are the words that were running in my head nonstop while we've been having this conversation. Okay, so maybe we could, as we wrap up, let's get practical, tactical, right? If people, they're like me, like, yes, I'm all in, I want to do this, I want to have an environment, like what are some practical tips you would give them on how to start surfacing truth earlier? You know, that they could start to apply themselves or encourage the rest of their team to do, or if they're a leader, like how to set the, set the tone? Like what are the things you would suggest?

Definitely. Yeah. And it, I mean, it's kind of boring, but it, it's, it's what needs to happen. And, and the beauty of setting up rehearsal mode is it can be anytime. So, it, it's not, it doesn't have to be at kickoff for the team. It can just be like, hey, let's call a Friday meeting. And it looks like a leader, first of all, doing that work within themselves, understanding what truth might do to them internally.

Oh, yeah.

You know, like, what if you hear things that you don't want to hear? And then just get over that and say, you're going to hear things you don't want to hear. So, do that work first, which is, you know, difficult. And, you know, we work with leaders all the time to kind of say, You have to deal with the emotions that come up when that surfaces. Then you go into a room and you say, what is something that everyone knows here, but we haven't said out loud?

Right?

And then like—

That's a great question. Right?

And you'll get information whether you get an answer or not. You know, like people shift, if there's laughs, if there's like dead silence and crickets, you know, like you can feel What the idea of telling a hard truth is just in that reaction right there. So then from there, I would say to the leader, like, okay, what needs to happen for us to feel like we can say that thing? And then you're going to have the conversation about, well, I'd need to feel like I wasn't going to get fired. Well, I'd need, and then you start having a conversation about the how, not about the what. So you're building that container. And then, the key is you have to tend to that so that you have to build that trust. So, it's not a one-time conversation. This is maybe a once-a-week check-in, or in theater, it's a daily check-in because they only rehearse for 3 or 4 weeks. It's like, we have to tend to that very quickly. But yeah, starting is the hardest. Rip the bandaid off and then just practice, rehearse.

Yeah. So, how important do you think it is to, if you're a leader and you you do the soul searching, you go like, I'm gonna accept the feedback I get, and something comes up and you go, um, yes, we can change, we can do this thing, no big deal, but this other thing we can't. How would you like, because you can't do everything always, right? Um, nope. That's always been my struggle. How do you, how do you handle, tell people to handle that kind of situation?

Yeah. And as much as you can prepare them in advance for what the outcome could be, the better. So, as you're setting up those guidelines, whenever it may be, a leader can say, listen, my intention, and even say things like my intention rather than intent and impact. My intention is that we surface all of the great ideas in this room. Now, as your leader, it's my job to use my skills and my judgment to decide blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, you're already prepping the room for like, I'm not gonna take every idea, but I wanna hear them. And then, of course, you just want people to feel acknowledged and valued. So, even if you're not gonna take an idea, it's, thank them. I'm really, thank you so much for saying that. I really appreciate that. Another thing I'll say for this question is I think leaders often feel like they need to right away say the thing or have the thing figured out. I think there's, I've seen there's so much power in leaders saying, thank you so much for all of this. I'm gonna digest this and I'm gonna get back to you once I've had a chance to think it through.

Yeah.

So take it, you know, acknowledge it. People feel great. And then you have the time to kind of sift through what you're gonna do and then start another gathering where you can have thought through it and, and, you know, can, can deliver back.

So I think then what I'm hearing is the key there is Accepting the input, using judgment and, you know, whatever context you have, but then coming back and providing feedback. Like, this is why this one is, I think we could do this and this is why, but I need your help or whatever that is. And this, this one we can't do right now, or we can't do it all. And here's why. Oh, but like, keep bringing those ideas up. I mean, is there— You've got to show that you're actually doing something with it.

Yes. Like, people are not gonna give you feedback if they don't see it going anywhere. So, even if you're not taking the feedback or acting on it, you are acknowledging it and celebrating the fact that there is feedback.

Yeah.

Like, that in itself is a huge thing. And right, you have to continue to do that and show up and say, it's so simple, but I heard you saying this and here's what I'm doing and why. So, that transparency and that follow-through. Those are those little bids for trust that I'm talking about that will start to move ideas faster and even see like how much money are we gonna save because we can get to the better ideas faster and surface more ideas.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's gonna make it so that like if we can stop doing rework at the end, right, we're all gonna avoid the burnout and get to maybe open up time to do things we really wanna do to, to grow and learn. Uh, that's right. You, you said that idea, like explicitly saying like, this is my intention. And it made me think, like, so something I've done, this is probably more of a one-on-one kind of thing, but I've like told people, like, I trust you, like literally said the words out loud. Right. And don't, don't leave it ambiguous on things like that. So, like, are you a fan of that kind of thing too?

I am. I'm, yeah. Like I, now I'm a, you know, an employer, so I have to practice these things with my own team and just practicing those moments of Yeah, I need to let go. I need to show my team that I trust them, right? And that, um, you know, hey, what's, what do you think is the best way to do this? I'd actually love to see what you think and then bring it back and let's have a conversation about it. Even just those simple things empower a team, right? And they can be a part of the co-creation of the thing, even though I am the leader. So, we're not breaking any hierarchy. We're, we're just kind of creating that. Again, I love the sandbox metaphor of like, the sandboxes we're all working within.

Yeah. And yeah, I love it. This has been so much fun, Kara. Oh, I love this.

This is so great.

I love these topics. I actually have been thinking a lot about this stuff, and it turns out that part of it's probably because we've had guests talking about sort of different dimensions or viewpoints of this whole idea of building trusting teams and organizations and how do you achieve that and how do you deal with difficult conversations? I love it. I love it.

Yeah, it's so important. And it's, you know, like I'm a, as you can probably tell, like I'm a person who cares about people. And at the end of the day, this is going to make lives better. It's gonna attack burnout and all those things you're talking about. But I've learned like we can speak the language of money and what moves the needle and Uh, we should use that so that, right, we can both have better, more productive creative teams and be more well as human beings in general.

Yeah. Well, if folks want to continue this conversation or learn more about what you're doing, what's the best way for them to do that?

Yeah, I would love, uh, for people to check us out at, uh, we're at artandsoulconsulting.com. Uh, the and is spelled out, art and soul. And if you head there, you'll find the free audit we're talking about. So I've created a free silence tax audit. So we can— yeah, if you've heard this and you're like, I wonder what my team's is, I think it's 8 questions. You can go very quickly in 5 minutes and find the actual number. So I'd encourage folks to go try it out for themselves. And like I said, I love feedback. So yeah, love for folks to reach out and share what they think.

I love it. Well, again, thank you, Kara. It's been a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it. And I think our audience will too. So thank you for that. Thanks to our audience again for supporting us. If you've got ideas for topics or guests, or you want to be a guest like Kira, feel free to reach out to Naomi, Mike, or me. We'd be happy to get the ball rolling. Till next time. Bye everybody. Bye. Thank you.