The Hidden Skill Behind Great Ops Leaders: Learning to Love Conflict with Anna Lecat

Hi, I'm Michael Hartman.

I'm Naomi Liu.

And I'm Mike Rizzo. And this is OpsCast, a podcast for marketing ops pros and RevOps pros, created by the MoPros, the number one community for marketing operations professionals.

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Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by marketingops.com, powered by all the MoPros out there. I am your host, Michael Hartman. Today we're going a bit outside of the typical playbook for our show, but in a way I think it will resonate with everyone who's been listening, or at least anyone who's working in operations, especially marketing ops. As you know, if you're in marketing ops, RevOps, or really any kind of ops role, you are constantly operating in the middle between marketing and sales, leadership and execution, strategy and reality. And with that comes something we don't often talk enough about, which is conflict. So not just difficult conversations, but real tension, misaligned incentives, different languages across teams, especially if you get international competing priorities in moments where it feels like you're stuck in the middle of it all. So my guest today is Anna Lakat, CEO and founder of Bridging Global and author of the soon-to-be-released book, Loving Conflict. By the time this goes out, I think it will be out published, so we'll share a link to that. Ana has spent over 25 years leading multicultural teams and working across global organizations, and her work focuses on how we can move forward from avoiding conflict to actually using it to build trust, alignment, and better outcomes. Today's conversation is about a skill that might be more important than any tool, system, or framework, learning how to navigate conflict in a way that makes you a more effective operator and leader. So Anna, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah. So, uh, so this is, you know, we always love having international guests and I think yours is an interesting one. We'll maybe we'll get into your story, but you were in France now, Paris, right? But you were Ukrainian but lived in China. If I, did I get all that right?

Well, I was born in Ukraine and I left for China at 17. Then I moved to the United States. I lived in San Francisco for 12 years, and this is my third immigration to Paris, France.

Nice. Okay. So we love that. So like, I think I've worked with people globally, but I haven't lived in all those places. So it's always interesting for me to get that perspective. But yeah, so your book is going to be called Loving Conflict. I think you showed me the COVID so I don't know if you want to share that on the screen. You won't see it, but—

Thank you.

Yeah, there you go. And this is an idea that I think resonates with me a lot. So people who listen to me, I've I think that's a big part of being, especially in leadership roles where you've got to deal with conflict and competing priorities and things like that. But your core idea, loving conflict, I think is an interesting one. So for a lot of people in, you know, generally, but in these ops roles in particular, conflict is something they try to avoid. I think a lot of people try to avoid it. So when you say loving conflict, what do you mean by that? And why do you think most people try to avoid it and get that wrong from your perspective?

Well, first of all, I think that conflict is a feature of any relationship, personal relationship or business relationship. And if we are not having, if we are not clear that there is a conflict, it means we are avoiding it and we are trying not to notice it. There's always going to be conflict because, uh, we are different. We have different beliefs, different, uh, upbringing, cultures. Even if we come from the same city, from this, and born on the same street, we are different. In the way of how our parents brought us up, right? Um, or what the experiences we encountered.

Yeah.

And so, uh, why we avoid conflict is because we are brought up that way. We are all told that loving someone means keeping the peace. Uh, that, uh, we are told from early on, just, uh, avoid it, uh, be nice to each other. And we are not taught how to do it well. And so when we do end up conflicting with someone, we do it badly because we don't have the skills and then we lose the relationship. And so we learn, okay, if I have a con— if I bring up a conflict with my best friend when I'm 6 or 10 years old and they leave me, they break up with me, I'll never do it again. I'll never, we will decide that it's because of us bringing up the conflict.

Yeah.

And I will never do it again. And what I say instead, let's learn how to conflict better. Let's work on those skills so that we bring it up because we know that every time, all of us, we intuitively know that if we bring it up well and we resolve the conflict or we just, we talk about it, it builds trust, it builds connection, and then there is a collaboration and continuous attachment. possible in those relationships, business or personal.

Yeah, it's interesting. Um, I, I can't remember where I saw this, but I saw somebody describe, uh, I think it was like a silly Instagram reel, but it was something about someone was being asked like, how have you, like a grandchild asking grandparents, like, how have you been married so long? Right. And it was interesting. It was talking about really, it wasn't just one long relationship, right? It was multiple relationships because people were changing and evolving. And it feels like, you know, conflict is going to be natural if you're not evolving at the same pace or like, so I mean, is that also a part of it too? Is it like it sets you up to be able to navigate some of those changes as your relationship changes?

Well, it sets us up to have a communication, right communication, open communication, sincere communication so that when the relationship changes, when we change, which we change every day. Every morning I wake up, I'm a different person. So, so are you, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

And so we change every day. We need to update each other on our changes every day. That's why it's important that I talk a lot about knowing ourselves, checking in with ourselves, scanning our bodies, knowing where our body is and what we are feeling and what we're experiencing today at every moment so that then we can translate ourselves to other people and update them on our changes. So they don't need to guess because people do not read our minds. Right. And so, right, we would love to, and it's so romantic and we are told, you know, so, so many stories are, oh, he's reading my mind. Right. And no, no, it's just a coincidence.

Yeah.

Right.

So broken clocks, right? Twice a year, twice a day. Right.

Exactly. Exactly. And so, and especially when our life changes. Uh, and we, we grow out of something and we go into a different life stage or in the company, company gets bigger. We go through the merger, right? Major client was onboarded, offboarded, uh, change in the team. These are all changes that impact us and as such might lead to conflicts unless we spell each other, spell ourselves to others clearly.

Yeah, that is a good idea of As organizations grow and change, I think that does inevitably lead to that. Even if you had a good relationship, right? It can lead to changes, like people handle stress and risk and all those things differently. And so when that happens, it would be natural. So one of the things that was interesting to me when we first were connected is that, you know, I believe that this is an important skill to learn too. And I'd I think a lot of people would call it a soft skill, right? And I hate, I'd really try to avoid that because it's just a skill in my mind, right? It's like anything else can be learned and you can become competent in it. But so for people who are mostly in our audience, right, they're in operations roles and they are like, we sit in between, especially in marketing ops and revenue ops in these businesses, we sit between lots of different teams that maybe have competing priorities, right? We've got marketing, obviously sales, Finance, leadership, I would throw in legal, right? Because we've got, we sit in the middle of all that, like compliance with privacy and things like that. Then there's these, all these tensions, right? Different goals and perspectives. So like beyond like some of the obvious, like why, what do you think are some of the drivers that lead to the conflict as opposed to alignment in those scenarios for the people who are listening?

It's wonderful that you listed the different roles or departments that we communicate or that your audience communicates with, because if we look at those, we can stereotype. If we go to stereotypes, we can say that there is different culture, different language, different type of a personality as average in each of those teams. And so already here you have different cultures communicating. Somebody who's in sales is very different. From someone who is in finance and in legal, right? And so they have different education, different slang, right? They speak differently, right? They have internal jokes, they have a culture within their department, right? And then it depends on individuals and who's the leader in that organization and how they, where do they go out together, how they socialize, right? What common jokes they have. And so just, it's just that we forget that when we speak the same language.

Yes.

In the organization, we assume we are very much the same. Very few people remember when they speak to a different person that this person might be living in a totally different world.

Yes.

Plus, if we add on the top of that, that we are all living in an information bubble because of the, uh, our social media algorithm that, that brings us information that confirms our biases.

Correct.

Then, and if you assume, and we can assume now that many of us work from home, right? So we probably have never met that person from a different department with a different role, different, uh, um, priorities and different culture. And we have not built that net, that friendship net.

Yeah.

That connection net. We, we can, it's the same as talking to someone from a different country that you've never been to. Right.

Yeah. You don't, like, you don't know their norms and things like that because it's, you, so many things are flooding in my head right now. Like I remember the first time I went to Asia and my, what I thought it was going to be like was nominally marginally accurate, but the reality of it was quite different. So my perception was one thing and I think it would, And going over there and spending time with those people, it completely changed the relationship we had by spending time together. I think it can, some of that can be accomplished now through virtual stuff. It's, but it requires work to do that.

Exactly. It requires work and it also requires attention and remembering that we are different. And when you go to Asia, you know, it's going to be different. We look different, right? We, uh, And so you have a better attention to that detail. You're more noticing. But if you speak to somebody in, if you're in the US and you're speaking with somebody from you, from the US, you assume, uh, oh, we just get each other. We understand each other. You, you assume that they watch the same news that you watched in the morning, right? And probably not.

No, no. These days that is abso— like, I become a big believer that like, uh, a, a lot of the A lot of what's driving what seems to be such like divide in the world is because literally people are seeing completely different things, right? It used to be right, wrong, or indifferent, right? Everybody saw the same 3 or 4 broadcast news channels and that was it, right? And now there's hundreds and hundreds and they, to your point, they reinforce your own biases. Anyway, that's a whole nother topic. It's interesting you talk about the language though, because I've talked a lot about having been in a sales role for a brief period of time. I often tell marketers, right? Part of the challenge you're having with your relationship with sales is because they just simply speak a different language. And it's, so I encourage a lot of people like go spend time, like sit down and watch what they go through and what they do, right? How are they talking to customers and clients and prospects? And I don't know how much people think that, because I think they immediately get to, they don't understand what we do, which may or may not be true, but you probably don't understand them either.

Right, exactly, exactly. It's great that you advise that. I love that, that you recommend people go and sit at the same table. Yeah. Right, and in the framework that I've developed, the Love and Conflict Framework, one of the steps is being on the same team, always remembering we're on the same team in personal or professional relationships. So literally, because I use a lot of somatic therapy guidelines in my work, I, and I bring my body, the body always. I think what's important to remember, including the body. So when I talk to someone where there is a potential conflict, or at least not even a conflict, but at least it's difficult to communicate, I will sit next to them and not across the table from them.

Oh, interesting.

And even like when I go out with my husband and I know that there is something tough to discuss, when the discussion comes, I will climb into the seat next to him. And I will say, okay, we are together. We are a team.

Yes.

And the problem is in front of us, both of us.

That's a really interesting framing because I would've naturally assumed being face-to-face would've been more like, you see, I felt like it would miss some of the body language components of it, but you're saying next to each other is Is it, so is there like research that backs that up too?

Look, let's try. Um, uh, to me this is intuitive that, uh, if we're next to each other, we feel each other, we are closer to each other so we can feel more.

Yeah.

We can also co-regulate each other better. So there is research about co-regulation, right? So the closer we are, the higher chances there are that we co-regulate. So if you are nervous and I'm calm, or I can calm down because I meditate and I know how to do it. And I sit next to you, you get affected by my state. And so there is a higher chance for me to calm you down. Yes, I can do it across the table, but I will do it even better if I'm next to you. We look at each other, so we're not completely looking across.

Right.

So I can see your body language, but there is this idea of, okay, the problem is there. It's not, you are not my problem. I am not your problem. We together have a problem that we together will now solve.

Right.

So anything that will put us on a, we are the same team, uh, anything we can do body-wise or if it's virtual with a, with a conversation. Um, there was a couple therapists, uh, that we went to with my husband who told us before every difficult conversation, say, I love you and we are going to be okay.

Yeah.

And then go into, into it, right? So there is a version of that that we can say, when we talk to somebody who potentially has a different language, which is, for example, people from the sales department versus marketing.

I think this is what's really interesting. So, um, this is curious, having in a leadership role I've had, maybe not trying to help team members get through conflict where I might have to broker the conversation, right? Be in, in the conversation with them. And this just occurred to me, so I'm putting this in front, like throwing you into something that we hadn't talked about before, but how do you recommend leaders if they've got people who are in conflict on their team, assuming like I would always try to push them like, can you resolve it yourself, right? Maybe give them some tools and guidance or suggestions for how to do that. But if you have to step in, like how would you, like do you still want, do you want them to sit next to each other? Do you want, like how do you, how would you, is there a physical orientation that makes sense for that kind of conversation?

So first, Michael, I would say that, um, uh, in the teams I work with, I facilitate those conversations. I do not ask them to resolve it with each other. I actually have, uh, I actually disagree with that even in parenting, in the parenting world, you know, when the school would say to the kids, okay, go resolve it by yourself. Do not come to the adults and go resolve it between yourselves, uh, assuming that they will learn the skills by trying. And I don't think they will. I think that we need to teach our kids how to resolve it. And I think if there are 2 team members that cannot, that are in conflict, it means that they have not been able to resolve it by—

Yes, agreed.

That's why they're looking for this, that for their manager, somebody in the team who is great, more aware, more experienced. And so I would facilitate the conversation to make sure that they take turns. That, right, that they speak from an I statement and do not put the other person on the defensive, right? So we all, all the nonviolent communication skills should be facilitated that one person speaks, the other one only listens. There's no response right away. Wait until this person finishes, right? And we focus on the emotions, how it makes me feel, what happens to me, happened to me. I might have been triggered. This is my story. This is that story that I made up based on what happened. And here's my request. And so I will have them go one by one and then, okay, what exactly is your request? And the more we do it with our team members, the more they learn those skills and then they can go ahead and do it on their own. So if I'm facilitating, then I will ask them to sit Okay. Uh, in a way that they, they, they are look, they can see each other, they can feel each other, but they're not against each other completely.

Yeah.

And I also love talking without tables. So I'm always a, it's always a, I'm a bother when I come work at the, at the organizations because I ask the tables to be removed or give me a room without the tables because I think that we are so protected with the tables and we are so, It feels like a wall, right?

I mean, that makes sense. It's so intriguing because you said something in there that is consistent with, I think we talked about this, right? The version of this that really changed my, the way how I handled things was from a book called Crucial Confrontations. And I've talked about it here and I think you're familiar with it too. And you said something like, want you to use I statements, right?

Yeah.

And I think I don't want to skip over that because I think this is a really important thing because I think a lot of the way I, in fact, I was talking to one of my children last night about this because he's got a friend who's written a book and has asked him for feedback and the way he's feeling concerned about how to communicate lots of, as he called them, issues. And I'm like, that's, he asked for help. You're helping him, right? You need to change your mindset a little bit. Um, it doesn't mean you get to be a jerk about it, but you, you know, I don't think you will because you're actually worried about it. But I, this is one of the things I learned was there was a lot of times when I would get in conflict where I would go, that person did this or did that or didn't do this and didn't do that. And when I learned that a lot of that was like me making assumptions about their intent or whatever it, when I realized like, oh, the way I can say the same thing. But the way I say it matters a lot. And I think that, so when you say use I statements, I kind of know what you mean, but could you describe what you mean for the people who are not familiar with that?

Absolutely. And let's step one, go one step before that. Okay. Step number one is assuming nothing. So, uh, before we start speaking, we need to, uh, we need to research. Is my opinion actually about them? Is my judgment actually about them? What judgment do I have about them? What did I make up about this? What story did I make up? What story did I make up about them? How they feel about me? What is my upset? Because usually there's going to be upset, otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it, wouldn't be calling it a conflict, right? So what is my part of this? And when we look at our part of it, it's actually pretty deep because not only the surface of what upset me and what is my role in this whole scenario, but even deeper, okay, what do I think about this person and where does it come from?

Yes.

Right? So what am I stereotyping right now about them? What are my biases? So as an example, when I started investigating my biases and, you know, I had to face my biases from when I left Ukraine because going from Ukraine to China, okay, this is a new country, new, I would say new planet, right? So if I came in assuming things about Chinese people that I was told, uh, when I was in Ukraine, they're poor, they only eat rice, they're uneducated, and then I came, I came, if I assumed all that, I wouldn't be interacting out of curiosity, uh, with people. I would just be looking at them and, and I would be confirming, seeing only the reality that confirms my biases, right? Or the decision I already made. So the first step is Clear the plate.

Yes.

And, uh, the next step is how do we listen? So we practiced listening and the listening quality for me is like this. I listen ready to change my mind.

Yes.

And that's the only quality of listening we should have when we listen. If we are not ready to change our mind, we do not have permission to ask questions. Because if we already made up our mind and we are just preparing our answer in our head while the other person is Talking, it's not a conversation. It's like to radio or I don't know, there's just, right? We are just, we are waiting to say the next thing, right? Exactly. And it's not a conversation, which means that the person, we, we are not in connection, which means this is not a relationship, right? Which means we can't actually work together because if we don't have a relationship, how do we work together? There's just no trust. Uh, there is no collaboration, right? So. the quality of, so we assume nothing first. We clear the plate. Okay, clean, clean. Then, and it's very hard to do, and with practice we can do it slightly better. I'm not saying it's possible to completely clear it, but at least, uh, have an open, curious mindset. Then we learn how to listen, which is awkward because especially in the States, you know, in, in North America, uh, there is this, uh, bias. There's this culture of communication where we do not let each other finish our sentences. We start speaking whenever, whenever there is a pause, whenever the person gets stuck, you know how the person gets stuck and, and, and they can't find the last word. We go in and we help them because we already so ready to tell them what we think and why they are wrong. That we cannot let ourselves calm down and let them find that word. It's awkward. And so, I've actually did this research on myself. So for 2 years, I did not allow myself to finish other people's sentences. It was a nightmare. It was so, especially in the States, because It means I spoke much less because if it was a group, in a group setting, other people would come in and I would have to, and I would miss opportunities constantly to speak. And what I found out was very cool because I actually found out that, um, whenever I did not finish people's sentences and I let them hang in there in that pause of looking for that word, how, like, usually it's the most important word in the sentence. When they get stuck because they're actually deliberately trying to be precise with me, which is wonderful. We should be rewarding people for that behavior. And so whenever I didn't finish that last word, they would then say a different word that I had in my head. So, so many times people went into different directions that I assumed, but what happens is if I don't let them say it and I say the word for them, There is this, uh, we want to be agreeable.

Yeah.

So people just nod, oh yeah, it's kind of what I meant. And anyway, I just interrupted them and I, and anyway, it's my turn, right? So it's that kind of quality of listening. And then it's about, okay, so when it's my turn to speak and that now we're to the, to your question, I'm sorry it took me all this time, but I just—

This is exactly what I wanted you to go through. Like it's a process.

Right. And so once we listened carefully and we are ready to change our mind and we heard them finish their sentences and we clearly understand what is their point of view and their picture, and we keep asking questions until they don't have anything else to say, then it's our turn to talk if we have something particular to say. Um, maybe there's nothing to say and we just hug and say, I'm sorry. Or no hugging if it's not right, but, um, whatever is appropriate, um, virtual hug. Um, but if there's something to say, then it's I sentences. So what just happened, this is how it made me feel.

Yes.

This is the story that I made up. This is what comes up for me. This is what it reminds me of. I love that. Because most of the time we are conflicting about something that happened to us in the past.

Mm-hmm.

The way you speak to me, your tone right now so much reminded me of how my first grade teacher used to talk to me. And I got so transferred to when I was 6 years old, I actually stopped listening because I got so triggered. Can we restart? Because, and my request for you, a request to you would be, could we see if your tone of voice could change? Because with that tone of voice, I know it's not your fault. I know there are, it's just things happen to me when somebody talks to me this way.

Yeah. I love that. Um, the point about listening is a really important one. And I'm, I have, I've been told I interrupt, so I, I have to really pay attention to that. But it's interesting because when I was early in my career, I was in consulting. And one of the things that we used to do when we were doing interview, like client interviews, is we tried to do them in pair, like with 2 of us. And there was a reason, 2 reasons. One, we could alternate who was asking questions and taking notes. And, but the other part was before the next question would be asked, say, say the client answered a question. Uh, neither of us would say anything. And there was this awkward silence. And what we found was the most valuable stuff came after if we let that awkward silence linger. And I think this, this is true, right? This is kind of similar to what you're talking about is if you don't immediately try to finish a sentence or, you know, answer for them, you're going to learn something that you maybe assumed was different. I think it's fascinating what you did for 2 years. I don't know that I could do it.

And Michael, you know, it's interesting to me and I learned that the quality of the capability of sitting in silence with other people, I learned in China early on because at the very beginning, so I was 20 years old when I started my first company. I'm a serial entrepreneur. I started, ran several global companies and The first company, uh, we were, it was one of our first meetings where we were visiting a very established factory, me and my business partner. And I was this young, easily excitable, uh, entrepreneur. And we had a plan. I had a plan. I had a PowerPoint presentation that I would present to this, uh, team of, uh, older men who were running this factory. And if they signed up, we would be good to go because we were building a database of sustainable manufacturers in China.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, my business partner is an older, experienced entrepreneur, Chinese entrepreneur. And so we sat down and they served us tea and then nobody spoke. And I was so ready to present, like I had an agenda. I was just like, watch me, I'm going to tell them how it's going to be. The vision is clear. And, but nobody spoke. And I was so unsure because I was so much younger and I didn't know the rules. And I look at my business partner and he, Showed to me like, no, don't speak. And it was so frustrating. I don't know about you, how you feel like you're in a room of people and everybody's just sipping their tea and just looking at each other slowly in silence. And it like, it lasted for so long. And then at some point they spoke, one of them spoke.

Mm-hmm.

And then I got my chance and I made my presentation and we signed the deal. And when we came out of the meeting, I couldn't wait. I was just like, okay, this was so bizarre. I didn't know what was that. So I was like grilling my business partner. So what was that? What, what, what? And he said that we believe that whoever speaks first is more excited about the project, which means they have less of a leverage in a negotiation. Yeah. So the longer you can keep silence shows that you are calmer about it. You care less. As such, you can negotiate better.

Ah.

And I was just like, oh my God, my excitable, easily excitable nature needs to be worked on. And he said like every time, he used to tell me, We get higher prices from our suppliers because of how excited you are to talk to them.

Yeah.

I was like, authenticity. I'm excited to talk to them. And I'm still excited to talk to them. It's just that now I, so I did, I've practiced Vipassana meditation for many years and I've, you know, I dance tango. It's like my, in a tango, we really learn how to calm down our nervous system because we're so close with the other person, so we really feel each other. And so now I know how to stay calm, and if there is silence that's possible, I stay in it without getting freaked out for a long time.

Yes.

And it's amazing what happens there because again, we co-regulate, we see each other, we recognize we're all human beings. We start listening, we start hearing whatever biases we have, or am I actually hungry now or tired and I'm not able to hold the thought for, right? Like, or whatever there is, I can hear better about myself if I am in silent mode.

It's really interesting because this is like all about self-awareness, but I think What's interesting to me is that I think most people, if they're like me, would thought self-awareness is about like, what are my biases? What are my thought patterns? But it's like, what you're even talking about is like awareness of your body and what's going on there. And it made me think, so I tried yoga brief period of time and it was very, very much more difficult than I thought it would be. But the thing I remember learning from that, 2 things. One was to how to Steady my breathing. It was a really important piece. But the one that was more interesting to me, 'cause I was more of a, I played rugby, I played football in the US, I played, you know, and I was a runner. This, I had this really weird experience where I could be out running and I could then relax my body while I was still running and putting in effort because I had learned how to be like, know what was going on with my body and recognize, oh, I've got, I'm holding tension. I mean, it's kind of what you're describing, right? Is in your case, meditation. I've never been able to do that. I don't know how people do it. I really don't. But I think that's interesting to bring that up as a part of this as well.

And you know, that's what I actually teach whenever I teach the course on Love and Conflict. We start with the body. We actually first learn how to do a body scan before we have any discussions. about conflict and how, why, what, we start with the body. So the body scan is something that's easy to learn and we practice. And then we, you know, if I work with someone for 2 days, we do it several times a day and we learn how to scan our body while interacting with other people. So not only meditation at home by ourselves, but I think that this is the mindfulness that we bring with us. anywhere we go.

Right.

And, you know, I got tested the other day. I arrived from United States to Paris and I was at the airport and Paris airport is, is, I'm really, it really stresses me out. And I was walking and I felt all the stress and all the, what everybody was feeling. I already feel a lot. And someone was rude to me.

Hmm.

And I looked at them and, uh, I felt my body. I scanned my body and I felt so much tension in my neck and my shoulders already. And then they were looking at me with, um, with quite, with a lot of energy, negative energy. And I remembered that, okay, as long as I, if I can, uh, soften my neck, if I can relax my neck, and my shoulders. There is this, I can relax my body. And I know that most of the time they will relax too.

Yeah.

And so I did. And then they did. And then they apologized.

Wow.

So it's, uh, and so that kind of, it's really, we can all do that. This is something that's so, some people have it intuitively, some people learn it. Some people do it with yoga meditation, and it's just, it's really easier than that. It's just paying attention to our body, being able to scan from the top of our head, just like what we do. We first do it with our eyes closed, top to bottom, front and back. And then we do the same with eyes open. Then we do it the same as we listen to the music. Then we do it as we talk to other people, as we walk. So that we just constantly, this is my body, why wouldn't I be constantly feeling what's going on with it?

Yeah, that's, no, I, it's funny, I hadn't really put this together with the idea of dealing with conflict, but it's so true, right? I mean, your body, it's part of the body language that it happens. So I'm curious, so for people, like this is all, it feels like you've got talked through a lot of tools that people can use, maybe they need to learn them, like in those conflict situations. If they know they have one, like a conflict, they expect a conflict type of conversation to come up with a peer or a boss or subordinate or whatever. What are some of the things they could do before they get in that to get prepared for that kind of conversation?

Oh, that's great. Well, uh, so we talked about the body. So make sure that you arrive calm, present, that you're able to be present fully. This quality of being present, we all feel, you know, when you're with someone and somebody is really listening to you, they're fully there. It feels so good. We all want to be loved, seen, and witnessed.

Yeah.

And so, and so Just simply no cell phone on the table. Cell phones are off the table. Not, I just turn it upside down, you know, face down. No. No electronics at the table, no computers at the table. Well, ideally no table. Everything stays in the bag. And here we are just calm humans. And you know, that's in my book, I write a lot about rituals. Like having a cup of tea together, mate, whatever, like coffee, whatever your cup of tea is.

Yeah.

To have a moment together that is just establishing that we are these 2 human beings that want to have a relationship. Maybe it's a relationship for one project, or maybe it's a relationship for long-term, uh, even 10 minutes of whatever we have to deal with. But it's a relationship where we are going to ritualize connections. So we sit next to each other and we drink. And we breathe and we connect. So that's the body is there and we pay attention so we don't have any tension. If you already come and you have the tension, or if you're all shaken from, you are really triggered and upset and overwhelmed, they're going to feel it and then they're going to be defensive. And that's not going to, the conversation already is not going to flow. And it's back to hungry, lonely, Tired, angry, right? So we check all those 4 if that's the case. And it's okay if that's the case because we often, we have to bring things, start conversations up when it's not perfect timing. For me, if that's the case, I will put my cards on the table and say, I'm actually feeling super angry, or I'm so hungry right now. Or I've been, you know, whatever is hap— or tired, didn't sleep last night. Here's my card. So now that we know that, here's my request.

Interesting.

And then I spell it out, right? So if the situation is not perfect, I'm going to disclose to the other person, this is what's happening. So I might not be very coherent. I'm really tired and I really need, I would love us for us to connect and have this conversation. So my request is, or so for example, often my request, if I'm triggered, if I'm angry, I would like to have a very clear start and finish of the conversation. So I would love, you know, like a bookend. So could we put an alarm in 10 minutes that we will finish this conversation in 10 minutes? So I know I need to calm down for 10 minutes and be present here. And then we will finish and do whatever repair needs to happen and then we will go, you know, so like being clear. So whatever requests that are necessary, I bring them and I put them as my cards. So that's the preparation and the preparation of assuming nothing that we talked about before, where we investigate and look really, we are really a researcher of the situation.

Yeah.

what's going on for them. And, you know, I've, because I've facilitated many groups in, uh, in geopolitical conflict situations, you know, I think I mentioned this before when we talked, you and me, that I'm Ukrainian. I'm in the middle of so many conflicts right now. Ukrainian, Russia is at war with my country. I'm Jewish. Uh, I have family in Israel. I have—

Yeah.

Business partners in Palestinian community and dear friends. I have a company in China. And customers in the United States and we are in trade war. And so, uh, and so it's a daily, I, I have those conflicts and I am in the middle of those conflicts. Um, what I've noticed when, and it's not mine, it's, uh, I had amazing mentors who taught me this. When I am with someone in a high, uh, stakes conflict, Mm-hmm. high-intensity conflict, what we need to do is to get to our values and our fears. So I need to understand what are they afraid of and what do, what they care about.

Hmm.

And really deeply. So it's not only like when you talked about different departments, we might have different stakes and different roles, right? Can we go on a personal level? What does this person really care about? What are their values? Some people care for freedom, self-expression. Some people want a need to have a, a, a feeling of belonging, and that's their number one value before their role in the organization. What, what is their why?

Yeah.

So that's, that's something that I need to know about this person before diving deeper. And then I need to know what are they afraid of right now? Because if there is a conflict, means that somebody's boundaries were crossed, somebody's expectations were not met, somebody's requests were not heard, and somebody's feeling unloved, unseen, unwitnessed, right?

Sure.

So what is going on for them? And then what about me? Okay, what am I afraid of? What are my fears right now? And what do I care about so deeply that Has been stepped on, possibly, right? Or disregarded. And then we talk on that level.

Yeah.

And there we meet as 2 human beings who care about each other. And on the top, when we have that safety net of friendship, because that's what friendship is about, right?

Yeah.

We can fall a lot of times on that net, right? We can jump around in all kinds of conversations. and fall back to, this is my why, this is your why. This is what I'm afraid of. I am afraid of being, I cannot stand the feeling of being ignored and unwitnessed, me, my personal fear.

Sure.

And so I will put that card on the table. I will say that if we are working together and my emails go unanswered, I quickly get triggered into, you're ignoring me.

Yeah.

I'm not important. You don't choose me. I'm not being seen. And so as I build a relationship with you, can we agree, would you be able to, here's my request. Uh, can, do you think your level of communication, how often you check emails, that you answer me every 2 days, would that be comfortable for you?

Yeah.

Right? And if not, okay, it's, it's okay. We, I'm going to adjust, but I wanted to be clear that that's what happens to me. And that's, so I'm trying to, I'm designing my communication style and my relationships to take into consideration my, my values and my fears and yours as well.

It's interesting. I, it made me think of, I had a CMO that I worked for in our, our leadership team. were getting really frustrated because we would all get emails late at night, early in the morning, you know, on weekends and whatnot. And everyone felt obliged to respond. And so, but somebody, we got enough frustration that people, we brought it up to an, in a group meeting. And it was interesting. It was a really eye-opening thing because he was like, oh, I don't expect you to reply to all those. It's just convenient for me. It was this big aha moment. It was great is how he actually listened and like, no, let's, so let's set some, you know, something we can agree to. If it's something I really need fast, I will let, like, I will let you know, I'll text you in addition to email. Like, and it was, it made everything so much like everyone sort of seems like, I think probably everyone felt a little bit of calmness, like, oh, I don't have to do that. And it's, it was just, It was this unspoken assumption about what he thought. And when we had actually brought it up, we're like, oh, we were all wrong.

Go figure. Yeah, it feels great. I love those moments. It's like, to me, those moments are like discovering the blind spots of your car. I just, I think that's actually one of my fears is having blind spots. I want to not have them. And I know it's not possible. And I actually surround myself, right? I surround myself with people who tell me about my blind spots. And I ask and I reward them for that behavior, you know, so that I can, I want to understand what is it that I'm not noticing. And so, and when it happens, it's just less, for me, it's the relief of, oh, oh, this is the reality. Now I can adjust based on that reality.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that idea of being open to that feedback is really important. I've gotten in the habit, I've been in the habit as a leader for a long time with people like, I trust you, like literally saying those words and not assuming that they know that. And one I've been using lately, this is more in personal life, is like, I'm for you.

Right.

When it comes to like a family and it's, you know, if they're dealing with something and If I have to give them some feedback about what I think they're doing, right? Or how they're handling something, I was like, I'm for you. I want you. And so it just, I think it helps set the groundwork. So there was, maybe we can wrap up here a little bit, but one of the things you said when we talked before was to see, I think it was like see the child in people when it comes to, so I'm curious, like first let me unpack that a little bit, but like— If that is an important element, uh, how would we do that in professional environment?

Yes. Thank you for asking that. That's my favorite part. Yes. Uh, so that's just, uh, that's, uh, something that, um, I've noticed first for myself, uh, that, uh, when I'm speaking to someone with whom I deeply disagree, when we have different values and I am flooded with emotions and I cannot find the connection, the curiosity, open mind. I, or if somebody is really angry, for example, or upset, or I noticed that when I imagine them as a 5-year-old, all of a sudden I have more curiosity and more, actually on the body level, what happens with me is I look at them now, they're 5 years old, and there is this, oh, this feeling of like, oh, this is such a, here's the person who is hurting, who is, you know, who feels unseen or unloved or not belonging here, or, you know, we didn't listen to them fully. And so then curiosity, love, opens up in me. And so now in my workshops, we actually practice this and it's great. I do this with teams where we do, 2 people stand in front of each other and we meditate looking at each other with open eyes. And then I say, now think about them as a 5-year-old. And as they do it, I keep prompting them saying, what happened to them? Who loved them? How were they loved? Who held them when they were, when they fell down? Who, who acknowledged them? Who, who reassured them that they're beautiful and that they can do it, right? And so as we do that, it's amazing what happens. What, because that, that builds such a foundation then for harder conversations or for conflicts or for collaboration when we actually acknowledge each other as Okay, you were also 5 and you were all, and you might still, you're not might, you still have all those stories in you, right? They're there in every conversation. The harder the conversation, the more of 5-year-old stories are in that conversation.

Oh yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, 15, 20 years ago, me would have thought that was a bunch of I don't know, pick the word, right? BS or just goofy. But as I've gotten older, especially having been a parent now, like I find it's actually more true that there's a lot of that stuff. And it's interesting, like these roles, we've talked about this before. One of our early guests said that to be really good at these operator roles, a couple of things, but one of them she said was like, you need to be sort of someone who understands human psychology, right? Which is what you're talking about, right? So this is all, it feels like it all ties that together. This has been so much fun, Anna. Thank you for sharing. And I'm looking forward to seeing your book out there. So, but if people want to learn more about you or what you're doing, or, you know, obviously we'll share a link to the book, but what's the best way for them to do that?

Yeah, the book will be on all digital platforms and my website is annalikad.com. And I do workshops all over United States and different countries. I do workshops in English, Mandarin, Russian, and French. So.

All right.

And yeah, it's my purpose in life. I feel very much aligned with, I noticed that the better we conflict, the better our relationships get and Yeah. There's more peace.

Yeah. Well, I think we need more of that in this world today. So, and it's unfortunately a skill that I think a lot of people are not taught or don't have good examples for. So I'm glad to see it personally. So thank you again, Anna. Appreciate it. And thanks to all of our listeners and viewers out there now. We appreciate you. If you have ideas for topics or guests or want to be a guest, you can reach out to Naomi, Mike, or me, and we'd be happy to get the ball rolling. Till then, talk to you another time. Thanks. Bye.