Women's Takeover | Sharing Our Superpowers, Advocating for Leadership, and more with Naomi Liu, Vivian Chan, Kacyn Goranson and Leah Miranda

Hi, I'm Michael Hartman. I'm Naomi Liu.

And I'm Mike Rizzo. And this is OpsCast, a podcast for marketing ops pros and rev ops pros created by the MoPros, the number one community for marketing operations professionals.

Tune into each episode as we chat with real professionals to help elevate you in your marketing operations career. Welcome to another episode of OpsCast by the MoPros, powered by marketingops.com. I am Naomi Liu, and today I am not joined by my co-hosts, Mike Rizzo and Michael Hartman, because today's episode is a women's takeover episode. And I'm joined by my lovely guests, Vivian Chan, Kacen Goranson, and Leah Miranda. Please say hello.

Hello.

Hey everyone.

Before we get started, I wanted to take a minute to introduce my guests. Um, Kacen is a results-oriented marketer with a background in marketing operations, growth, and business strategies. She also has over 13 years of B2B experience across several areas of marketing from social media to paid search and lifecycle to lead scoring. Her passions are around optimizing the martech stack, lead processes, and marketing analytics. Vivian Chan is actually a second-time podcast guest, but for those of you who don't know her, she is an entrepreneur and senior technology executive leader who has been involved in marketing and partner channels for 3 very different waves of disruptive technologies. Those being analytics, cloud, and AR/VR. She has been named one of Global Mail's 2021 Best Executives and brings more than 20 years of experience scaling companies. She's currently leading global integrated campaigns for operational excellence at ServiceNow. And last but not least, Leah Miranda is passionate about using technology to meet people where they are and has garnered over a decade of lifecycle marketing experience, including startups, Fortune 500 companies, and most recently leading the lifecycle team at Zapier. When she's not coding emails or building flowcharts, you can find Leah in Nashville, Tennessee, drinking coffee and reading a book with her wife and well-fed dog. Ladies, thank you for joining us today, and I'm excited to chat with you all. That was definitely a mouthful. Super impressed with all of the accomplishments that all of you have had so far in your career. And so—

Thank you.

Jumping right into things, when we were talking about recording this Women's Takeover episode and what topic or hook we wanted to shape this recording around, an idea that came up was women and our superpowers. Now, I don't know about you, but no superhero story comes without the origin story. So I'd like to ask all of you, what is your origin story and subsequent superpower? Vivian, I'm going to pick on you for this because you were kind of the one who originally came up with this hook. So I would love to hear your origin story and superpower.

Sure. Yeah, I would say the theme of my origin story is really around this notion around having a nonlinear career. If I look at the last 20 years of my career, it's been really guided by my curiosity. I started my career as a co-op student in a startup company that subsequently scaled after 3 acquisitions into a large enterprise software company called SAP. And so ended up doing a number of years in, in from scale-up to, to corporate.

That was Business Objects, right? Bob J.

Yeah, that was— it went from Crystal Decisions, Business Objects, SAP. And, um, every 3 to 6 months we had a different company. And so that was one of the, the big educations of my career. Um, but after about 14 years of it, I, I got kind of tired of it. I was like, not excited about marketing, and I realized that I needed to take a tech sabbatical and ended up moving to London to volunteer for a climate change organization for a couple of months to learn a little bit more about social impact causes and whatnot. Then ended up in higher education. I ended up at my alma mater starting an innovation initiative there. Then dived into the world of startups, starting up my own AR/VR company with a co-founder. And now I'm back in corporate again at ServiceNow. So it really kind of goes full circle. And so I would say my origin story is really around one where I've continued to follow my curiosity and my personal priorities that change from time to time. In terms of superpower, I would say that my husband always says that You know, from his observation, he says that I'm able to make friends via human connection. And so I think the ability to find the thing that we have in common is something that I like to do. And another sort of fun fact is I'm always asking why.

That's awesome. So for those of you who don't know, like, Vivian and I have known each other for quite a long time. I want to say a decade.

Yeah.

I feel, a decade. And something that's always impressed me about you is that I feel like you are somebody who's an excellent listener, and you're always asking, you know, more information. You ask the hard questions. Like, I just really— I always, every time we connect and we catch up, I always just kind of leave feeling like super refreshed. I'm like, wow, you know, that's a different take that I've, you know, I've never, I've never seen, um, or heard of or thought of things that way. And so I just, I wanted to shout you out because I really enjoy, you know, You know, letting— I just want to let you know that I really enjoy having, you know, picking your brain and having those types of conversations.

Thanks, Naomi. Yeah, I know. I've learned to be a better listener. I have to tell you that that didn't come naturally. I really had to learn over time how to do that. So thank you for that. I really appreciate it.

So I want to pick on Leah next. Leah, I would love to hear your origin story and what your superhero is. Superhero power is, rather.

Exactly. So, I would say, like all heroes, my origin story involves a struggle, you know, the world, myself. Okay, so it's not really that dramatic. But as a 20-year-old with student loans, it definitely felt that dramatic. I actually went to school to be a social studies teacher. And you might be wondering, why am I on a MOPS Pro podcast? But here we are. And so I was a social studies teacher for a while. And then, you know, like in any good hero story, the villain shows up. For me, that was 2008 and specifically the economy. And I was suddenly faced with, oh no, I need to get another job. So, I temped at a lot of different places and I figured marketing seemed like fun. They always seemed like the cool kids whenever I talked to my fellow colleagues. And so, finally, Michelle L., I'm going to shout you out, took a chance on me not having a marketing background in gave me a position in an event marketing role, and I absolutely love it. I fell in love with marketing and it was, it was a really great time. From there, my career has expanded and I've been able to work with a couple of different startups, which I think was really fun, especially being young in my career that I was able to— with all startups, you get to wear many different hats and I really took advantage of that. So I was able to sit in content. I did a little stint in paid email marketing lifecycle. And eventually kind of wound up in marketing ops and lifecycle is kind of where I ended up really, truly, I think, thriving and really loving what I do. So with that, I think that journey, my superpower, I would have to say, is probably my humor. And while I think I can tell like a really great dad joke, I think it goes beyond just being able to crack a joke or being, you know, quote unquote funny. I've also realized I've set myself up to be humorous in this podcast. So just, you know, manage one's expectations.

I mean, I feel like I want to ask you what your favorite dad joke is. But, you know, I don't want to put you on the spot there, right?

Yeah, yeah. Let's see. Think about it. Favorite dad joke. Yeah, I think I'd have to say, in my early 20s, I was addicted to the hokey pokey. But I've turned myself around.

Oh my God.

It's horrible. But I love a good dad joke. Oh my gosh. I know there's someone out there that also appreciates this. So yeah, so it goes beyond being able to be quote unquote funny. Humor for me allows me to laugh. It helps me bring joy into my work to the people that I work with, and it opens up a human side to business and it allows for you to have better connections, better interactions. And really create better experiences within the workplace.

I love that. I think that's so important because I feel like sometimes, especially in the work that we do, it can get quite cumbersome and technical and super serious. And, you know, the ability to find humor in it and also taking a step back and being like, guys, okay, we're not curing cancer. This is not like COVID vaccine trials. Like, this is, you know, it's all still very important. But I think, yeah, definitely finding the humor in that, especially when you're, problem-solving or doing things with, like, mind-sharing with coworkers, and you're putting your heads together and you're wanting to approach a problem. I'm curious, like, do you have an example of using humor in a workplace environment where you're working in a group environment or you're trying to solve a problem? Like, do you have an example for that?

Yeah, I think what's great about humor is, I like to joke, it's not Maybelline. She's not born with it. that anyone can develop. And so, for me, I think it's being able to just be able to laugh at yourself. A lot of what we do can be trial and error. We make mistakes along the way. And I think having that humor, that joy, kind of that comfort to say, hey, I've made a mistake and let's all learn from it, is one thing that I really enjoy. The other thing too is just it's nice to set the tone. I think humor can sometimes have like a darker edge. So, you know, you don't want it to turn into your kryptonite, just to keep that superhero theme going. So, you know, I think if humor, if you're using that to bring joy and openness into your work environment and to kind of, you know, be able to laugh at yourself is kind of how I bring it and how it personifies in my work life.

Definitely. I love that. And so kind of piggybacking off of that and staying on the topic of problem solving and a woman's approach, I'd love to hear from you, Kacen.

Like, what are, what do you feel are some differences between Yeah, so I'm gonna definitely preface this with this is a total, total generalization. So, wanna acknowledge there are exceptions. Some women tend to approach problems like men, and some men tend to approach problems like women. But I think Leah actually kind of hit on it with her humor comment, and even the human side to business. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I think, generally speaking, men tend to look at any problems— what's the shortest path? What's the quickest way to get to right or fixed or whatever the result we're trying to get is? Where women tend to, partially because just the way our brains work, we can multitask. We are literally genetically wired to multitask where men cannot. Multitask as well. We see the forest; we don't just see the single tree. So we're able to think through the people angle and how do we best get there? Who are the people who can get us there? Even is it a skill set? Is it something personally that they've experienced before? We pull all of that in instead of just this person moves quicker, where this person has always got me, you know, through the hard times in business. I'm going to trust them. Women can tend to think of who's going to get us there the best way, the quickest, the most efficient way, but without taking shortcuts or just necessarily going straight through the forest. But what's the best way to get there and really solve that problem? So basically, I think, I think women are just really good multitaskers, but they remember the human element.

Yeah, I love that. I feel I totally agree with and resonate with everything that you've said. And I just, I feel like this is a good segue into the next question, which is female leaders and role models that we look up to. Before I call on Vivian, I'm going to call on you, but before I call on you, I also want to share what is a female leader role model that I look up to. Personally, I'm a huge fan of Sandy Lerner. For those of you who don't know who she is, she was a co-founder of a company you might know, Cisco. When she left Cisco, she went on to start a cosmetics company. You might have heard of it, Urban Decay. It's kind of in all of the— it's in Sephora, it's in all of the department stores. It's quite a drastic change from Cisco to Urban Decay, but when she sold Urban Decay to, I believe it was the Louis Vuitton Group, she then started a sustainable organic agriculture farm in Virginia. And she's an inspiration to me, not only as a woman in tech, but also as a woman in business, right? She was fired from the company that she founded, Cisco, but went on to reinvent herself. I'm super impressed by her resiliency and her ability to adapt. It's an inspiration to me and something that I really look, really look up to. So that being said, Vivian, you're also somebody I actually really look up to. You know, when we first met, I think I was like a little bit in awe of you. I was like, wow, there's this like woman who has everything, all her shit together. And, you know, I'd love to be your friend and like love to learn more and pick her brain. So I'd love to hear from you. Who do you see as a female leader role model, and who do you look up to?

Yeah, I just think that we learn from our bosses and we learn from our peers. And so I think in so many ways it's learning through observation and learning through collaboration. And sort of 2 women stand out quite a bit for me. Carolyn Cox, who now runs America's marketing at ServiceNow, but we worked together in 2 other companies prior. She really set the tone around being a leader that drives impact. You know, she gets her— she knows her shit, and she's very outcomes-oriented and efficient. And she didn't feel like, you know, she would need to talk or sound smart or eloquent. She— what she had to do was about impact. And so I really loved this no-BS approach to driving value. And so I've kind of kept that model in my whole career. I'm here to create impact, not to look good, but to make the right decisions for the organization. And the second role model that I've had is Joy Johnson from Simon Fraser University. She's from the higher education sector. She's now the president of the university. She was someone who had this incredible ability to make everyone feel seen and heard. And so when she would talk to the group, she really took time to listen, but when she spoke, she really had the final word and had a sense of bringing it all together. And so again, this sort of very co-creative approach was something that I took from her. So I think we take a little bit from different people at different times, whether they're your boss or your peers.

I totally agree, and I'm jotting these people down so I can look them up later after this recording. Leah, I'd love to hear from you as well. Any female leaders or role models Do you have any role models you look up to?

Yeah.

So, this is going to sound super lame, but I think Kacen can attest to this. But the person I really look up to is my wife. Her name's Taryn Triggers, and she's a C-suite leader in healthcare. And the reason I look up to her is because she was one of the first female leaders that I had exposure to. I had a lot of male bosses kind of as I was coming up in my career. That really led with empathy. And that just was in really stark contrast to the leaders that I had been exposed to. And it was something that I had the opportunity— we worked together for a short stint, and I sat in on a meeting with her and just was in awe of like, oh, this is a new way you can interact with your team and lead. With this underlying of empathy. And so, yeah, it's just, it's something that, a skill set that I identified with and something she instills in her team as she helps develop future healthcare leaders. So, yeah, I think, yeah, I think for me, it's just identifying those women and it can be as simple as just those little interactions. You know, I'm in awe of the women on this podcast. You know, you all bring such an amazing perspective and experience. And, you know, I think it's key to take those interactions and say, OK, you know, just dissect them a bit. Like, why was that meaningful to me? Like, what did they do? You know, Vivian was talking about, did they make that connection? And I think that's where empathy comes in. You put yourself in that person's shoes and you say, OK, what you're telling me is very important to you right now. And it's going to be important to me as a leader. And, you know, you use that to build trust with your team. So, yeah, so I think, like I said, my wife, and then I just try to, if I see a positive behavior or positive interaction, I try to say, how can I bring that into my own leadership style?

They're all layers, right? I think we definitely learn from the people that are around us and the people that, you know, report to us or manage us directly. And it's just something that over time, it's definitely a learning experience. I love that. Kacen, would love to hear from you, a female leader of OMOS. Who's a female role model you look up to?

So, it would be a previous CMO of mine. Her name's Keedron. She was the only female, not only senior executive on the C-suite, but I would say VP or higher at this company, traditional financial services company. She was never once intimidated to be the only female. She showed up to the table whether she had a chair or whether she had to, you know, Stand in the room. She was not afraid to turn that into a standing desk, but she really earned her spot. But she looked out at the rest of the team and helped us earn our chairs too, or at least our spot in the room. And that was not just for women. She helped the guys on the team, kind of, how do you get into that room as well? So now she owns her own business, which just continues to inspire me that she had her own faith to go do her own thing.

Yeah, I love that. So something that I am getting the sense of with a lot of the female leaders or role models that you all look up to is that they're quite powerful women in terms of being very high up in the companies and the organizations that they are in. And that kind of piggybacks into the next question around female thought leadership. So I would love to hear from you, Vivian, why you feel that female thought leadership is so important in, you know, the working world, corporate life? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Yeah, I think hearing from female leaders on their experiences, I think, are really important because I think sometimes the challenges that we experience on how we're perceived, seen, how people relate to us can be different by gender and even race, right? There's dimensions on perception. There's unconscious bias, and it's a real thing. And so being able to kind of share how we've overcome that, how we've worked through that, I think is important. You know, as an example, you know, by virtue of podcasts like this where we share what's working, what's not, I think we learn through that. As an example, just very recently actually, I was just at a Christmas party. I often get people assuming that I'm much younger than I am, and so by default they're already judging my level of knowledge and whatnot. And so It's something that I've had to work through throughout my whole career. And so instead of letting it define me, I think you kind of have— you're aware that that bias exists and you need to continue to just show up in a way that demonstrates your skills and experiences. I'm always aware of that. But with that said, I show up not trying to prove my age, but to try to bring my experience to the table. And so That comes in the forms of asking good questions, speaking up when I need to, but not always speaking up for the sake of speaking up, and how I prioritize what I do. So I think how we show up ultimately manifests in how people see us over time. But in the beginning, these first impressions, you know, start us off on a different playing field. So.

Yeah, I think for all of us on this recording, some of the things that you've just said, especially around the assumptions that are made and the judgment before people even really get to know you, you've put it in a way that is much more eloquent than I could have ever said. It kind of ties into feelings, for myself at least, of imposter syndrome, right? So I would love to hear from you, Leah, about do you ever feel, especially in the working environment, imposter syndrome? What does that look like to you? How do you combat that? You know, is it something you still struggle with, or what does that look like?

Yeah, lots of feelings on this. So I have proudly suffered imposter syndrome at every single job role that I've ever had. And I honestly think that it will never matter how many years I have under my belt or experience. I think imposter syndrome will always be there. And for me, that's not a bad thing. I try to use, again, humor and reframing to combat those feelings. For example, I like to put a name to my imposter syndrome. I affectionately call her Beatrice. And I know it sounds ridiculous, but if you—

I love that, actually.

Yeah, it's great. If you can't stop having those imposter thoughts, because you can't, you can't really control your thoughts, they pop up when you least expect them. And so by naming it instead of internalizing it, I'm able to combat those thoughts. And so it usually sounds like something like this. So like, I just started at Zapier, fantastic company, super excited about the job, but Beatrice popped up and it's like, are you sure you're going to be good at this? I don't know if you've ever really done this type of job before. You're probably going to fail and they're going to know. And so it's like, okay, like, yes, Beatrice, you're right in pointing out that I haven't done this type of job before, but let's be real. Like, they wouldn't have hired me if they didn't think I was qualified or if I didn't have transferable skills. And by doing that, I've said, okay, I've acknowledged the thought, I haven't internalized it, and then I've provided my own rational evidence to say, well, no, I went through several interviews, I gave a presentation, like they wouldn't have hired me if they didn't think I could do the job. So yeah, that's that for me. That's what imposter syndrome feels like. And like I said, I don't think it goes away for anybody. And if it does, please shout out, let me know how you can stop those. But if you can't, This is just one way I combat it.

A good friend of mine who's a clinical psychologist, she said that imposter syndrome usually stems from the fact that the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. And when she said that, I kind of had a bit of a lightbulb moment. I'm like, that is so true. You know, that for me, she said that she told me this a couple years ago, and, you know, when I heard her say that, I was like, yeah, I definitely feel that. Like, the more I know, the more I'm like, wow, there's actually so much I don't know. When people are going to realize that there's a lot I don't know, as opposed to focusing on the fact that, like, there's actually still even more that you do know too, right? Um, Kacen, we'd love to hear from you. Imposter syndrome thoughts? How do you combat it? What does that look like for you?

Absolutely. Well, first of all, I've never heard that comment about the more you know, the more you realize you don't know. So many light bulbs just went off, right?

Yes.

Thanks for giving me a lot to think about later today. But no, I think imposter syndrome is 100% real, whatever name you want to call it. I usually say honestly, and to Leah's point and her dear friend Beatrice, when you take a new role or opportunity or you start something, I have a— we all have a few moments, especially I feel like week 2 to 4, you have a lot of moments of, oh my God, what did I just do? I try to remind myself and I try to remind my friends and coworkers when they do something new as well. If it doesn't scare the life out of you, it probably wasn't the right opportunity for you because you never, even if it's a lateral move, you never want to take another step that isn't teaching you or challenging you something. So if it's not scary and it doesn't give you those imposter syndrome moments, it was the wrong step because you already know you can do it. But I think some things that I've recently realized are that it's 100% pervasive. And it is so real. And it happens in a lot of different ways. And it's not something you just stifle down. And it's not something just a new opportunity or a new role. And honestly, it's not even just at work or in your career. It happens in social situations. It happens when you move cross-country, like anything there. I have friends who are working moms. Right when they go on maternity leave or right when they come back, it creeps back up. Single women, they have it when they're in conversations with working moms. They're like, oh, well, what do I have to compete to this conversation? Am I good enough if they're able to have a family and work and do this? So it comes up. I even worked with a gentleman recently, which we never talk about men having imposter syndrome. He was man enough to admit As candidly the youngest in the room, he had imposter syndrome sitting in a room with a lot of people with much more experience. So I think imposter syndrome is just real and we just need to own it.

Yeah, I definitely agree and, and just wanted to thank all of you for your perspectives and thoughts and feelings around that. As kind of a wrap-up to this recording, I also wanted to And on hearing about some highlights of all of your careers. So I'm just going to start with you, Vivian. Would love to hear what are some maybe top 2 or 3 highlights that you've had in your career so far and what does that look like?

Yeah, the first one that comes to mind, and again, it parlays what, you know, Kacen was talking about, but overcoming your fears and being scared is— it can be a good thing. You know, when I realized that I could be an entrepreneur, that I wasn't just a corporate executive, that I could do other things in my life that were unknown and scary and undone before for me, and that by diving into something new and fresh, I would learn new things. When I was able to finally kind of get— you figure it out in life, you just kind of figure out, and over time as an entrepreneur, you just learn to figure it out. The skills that you had in your previous jobs or roles on how to figure out how to solve a problem, create an opportunity, those apply in any kind of role, industry, or function that you're in. And so when I realized that, that gave me so much freedom to say, you know what, I can be anything I want. I give myself permission to be anything that I want. So I think I would say that would be probably a highlight of my career now. And, you know, I take that with me in each job that I do.

Amazing. I love that. Thank you. Leah, what about you?

Yeah, so in my career, a couple of highlights. One, and this kind of feeds into that imposter syndrome we were talking about, one of the big things that I wanted to do in my career was start speaking at events, being on podcasts. And so this is a career highlight for me. I've had the pleasure to speak at Litmus this last year, and that was kind of a 3-year goal that I had. And Kason was great. She was incredibly supportive and helped me walk through my presentation, gave me some really great feedback. And so, so yeah, I think for me, putting myself out there just a little bit more, even though I've got an extroverted personality, it felt scary to say, here's some knowledge that I might have and you might find it useful too. So that was definitely a career highlight. And then the other one is seeing Seeing team members go on to bigger and greater things. I think being a leader and being a people manager, it has been so rewarding to help others, both, you know, men and women, non-binary people, you know, develop their skills and, you know, have an impact on their life and their career and, you know, help them get that next promotion and You know, I kind of always joke with every teammate that I've helped manage of like, you know, I hope to be— I hope you're my boss one day. I hope you can ascend. So that's been, I think, probably one of the most fulfilling things about my career is being able to manage people and them having the grace and support of when I do have a blunder every now and then that they are open with that feedback and help me grow as well.

I love hearing that about women supporting women especially and just like helping to lift each other up in, in, uh, you know, the corporate world for sure. Uh, Kacen, what about you?

Well, I feel like now I'm just piggybacking on Leah's last answer, um, but I think it's really managing people and it's beyond just at this one job. I've always looked at management as it's my role as a people manager to get them wherever they're trying to go and not necessarily at that company, but in their career. And I think there are a few moments— I'm going to try not to give out too many details and make Leah laugh because full disclosure, she was there for many of these. But there was a period where we were reorging at a previous company, and some men were trying to put 2 specific coworkers into places on the team where I knew they would Almost immediately turn in their notice. But because I knew where they were trying to go in their career, how they worked, things that they liked and disliked about their role, was kind of able to push really hard on putting them into different places on that org chart. They ended up staying for quite a while and really thriving in those roles. And I think the second one that comes to mind that's around the same vein is Even after leaving various companies, staying in touch with some of those previous coworkers, whether they were, you know, managers, peers, or even reports, but helping them get where they're trying to go as they find new roles, as they're having challenging conversations with bosses or peers or even salary negotiations, whatever it is. But I think it means a lot to me that they still, even though we don't work together, so they don't technically have to talk to me about those conversations, the fact that they still seek me out And keep in touch. And some of them I talk to multiple times a week. So I think those are, those are definitely the big highlights for me.

That's amazing. So I would almost, even just hearing what you guys are saying, think that, you know, one of the superpowers that you'll have is, you know, women supporting women, keeping in contact with folks, helping them to advance in their career, and just being overall super supportive. Vivian, Kason, and Leah, thank you so much for joining us today. For those of you listening, thank you so much for being a part of this. If you have any suggestions for future topics or guests, please let us know. You can find all of us on LinkedIn or join the daily conversations at marketingops.com if you're not already part of the community. If you're already there, please let us know what you think and remember to subscribe, rate, and review. Thank you.