05: Heath Phillips discusses Surviving Military Sexual Trauma & Respect

Welcome to the Mutually Amazing Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz, with the Center for Respect. The episode you're about to listen to was recorded when this show used to be called the Respect Podcast. So, you might hear that mentioned during this episode. Well, let's get to the show. This week's special guest is Heath Now, if you haven't heard of Heath or you haven't met Heath before, Heath is a military sexual assault survivor and a public speaker on the topic of MST. MST is military sexual trauma. He also speaks on bystander intervention. Now, Heath is originally from Protect Our Defenders, an organization that honors, supports, and gives a voice to the brave women and men in uniform who've been raped or sexually assaulted by fellow service members. Heath has chosen to be a speaker in order to relay his story, the effects it has had on him, the obstacles he has had and has to overcome, and most importantly, to educate our soldiers in regards to the damage sexual assault and hazing does to anyone, including males. So Heath, I want to thank you very much for joining us.

I thank you. I appreciate you for allowing me to be on this.

Absolutely. And your story is so powerful that I don't want to be the one trying to tell this on your behalf. I'd like to start with you being able to tell it. So how did you get to where you are today, Heath?

To be honest with you, um, when I got discharged, I was already an alcoholic. I was already drinking heavily. I was 18. I spent close to 20 years just spiraling downhill, worse and worse and worse. It came to the point where It was, I was going to commit suicide or get better. Final straw was, believe it or not, the date is still embedded in my brain. February 3rd, 2009, driving home. I was to the point I was so drunk I had to drive with one eye. There's just way too many roads. And I just wanted to die. Today, I still thank God that somehow I blacked out from that point to getting home. And that was when reality actually set in that I needed help. I cried for the first time in 20 years. I dumped everything that I had out in my home that was alcohol-related, any type of narcotics, drugs, anything. I even got rid of all my cigarettes the same day. And from that day forward, I have actually been drug, alcohol, and cigarette-free.

Wow.

No, I've never done AA, any of them exciting things that people do. I— my AA is not wanting to be where I was, and that's kind of what lit a fire in me to not just better myself, but to be a better father, a better figurehead, just a better person in general. And that's kind of how I started to move forward.

And so how many years was there Between you being discharged and that moment in 2009?

I got discharged July 26th, 1989. My first day of sobriety was February 4th, 2009. So it was just under a 20-year gap of being discharged to when I became— my first day of sobriety.

All right. And people listening might have caught earlier that you said when I was just Discharged at 19.

Actually, I was discharged at 18. It was— I joined at 17.

Right. So, so a year or so roughly. So now that's got people thinking, okay, wow, that a lot of must have happened in that year for that to have occurred. But during those 20 years, were you addressing that or is that the masking of the alcohol and the drugs?

I tried to, um, due to the discharge that I had, I had an other than honorable. The VA would not help me, period. So I had a hard time keeping employment due to my alcoholism. I didn't know I had post-traumatic stress disorder. I didn't know why I couldn't be near men. I couldn't handle being near it. The anxiety levels, you know, constant nightmares. I, I, but I didn't know what was wrong. So what I did is I just drank. That was how I coped. There was like no help for me.

Right. You were not— the sexual violence was not being addressed because you weren't that deep in yet to figure out what was causing the drinking and the drugs because you didn't get the support you needed to get on that journey.

Correct.

Yeah. And so because of how you were discharged, even though you were a survivor, because of what you were given, the form of discharge you were given, There was no support available to you. So, now you're alone and the alcohol and the drugs was coping, if I'm understanding correctly?

That's how I cope. That's how I slept.

So, then you clear the house of all the alcohol, everything, and say, I'm going to change. What gets you into the process of having the self-awareness, the discovery of where's the pain that caused all this in the first place?

Believe it or not, Google. I got to give Google props. I started Googling things because I didn't know what was wrong. I didn't know why I was having nightmares, flashbacks, and I didn't know what was causing this. So I started Googling kind of like what happened to me in the military and started reading papers because while I was in, there was a congressional investigation done on my case. One of the mental health people wrote that I had post-traumatic stress disorder. So my command had already— was aware that I had this. So I tried finding out what everything meant, and then I started finding out that I was not the only rape victim or survivor, or whatever you want to call it, from the military.

Mm-hmm.

And I started reaching out, and I started meeting more survivors. And that's when my curiosity started getting the better of me because they were going through what I was going through. So I was like, how do we fix this? How do we help each other? Things just kept moving forward and forward. And that's when Protect Our Defenders started to launch. And I did the video with them in 2011. We met in Washington, D.C., a whole group of survivors, myself included. And I'll tell you, I'm kind of redneckish. You know, I live in the country, so I'm not used to the suits and that attire. I show up in Washington, D.C., I'm wearing jeans, flannel shirt untucked, and we go to Capitol Hill and we're at the press box and everyone's in suits. I'm dressed all down, but they didn't care. They brought me on stage as, you know, the male survivor. Congresswoman Jackie Speier was introducing a sexual assault bill at the time called the STOP Act. Protect Our Defenders launched their name that day and nobody cared. We— it was the way I explain it is, so like these 6 guys did all these horrific things to me. So I had a bad, like, like an anger towards the military. For allowing it to happen, allowing to kick me out. But when I met these other survivors, there was like no animosity towards them because, you know, they were in the military. It was more of like a kinship. I mean, still today we all talk. We, we do our own things, but we still all talk. And it was like having that family that I never had, you know, because I lost a lot in that 20-year bad part of my life. But like, there was this— it was just like a unity that nobody can understand. It was the unity that I should have had when I was in the military with my fellow shipmates.

Yeah, and you talk about that. You talk about that before the hazing, because that— for those listening, the form of sexual assault that you experienced was very much what some would call a hazing form of sexual assault. It was, it was done by a group as a form of initiation to you. Prior to that though, because that was when you started actually serving on your first ship. Prior to that, you were loving the military. You, from what you've shared, you were— you felt that brotherhood that you're talking about right now.

Yeah. I'm an Army brat. So, I kind of grew up in the military culture. And this is something my dad never spoke about because my dad, Mr. Tough Guy, you know, but It was nothing I knew would happen. Boot camp was just— I mean, it was a family. It was exactly what my family talked about. My commander was, you know, my dad, kind of like. And these guys, my shipmates, were like my brothers. And we had each other's back. It was probably one of the tightest units I've ever seen. And it was boot camp. And it was kind of incredible because at 17, That was my first initiation in the military, was boot camp, and seeing how tight-knit— everybody had my back, I had their back. And then going to a ship, and your first day, within hours, you're being sexually assaulted. It was like, what just happened? It was like reading, you know, Cinderella and hopping into a Freddy Krueger movie. So it was just mind-blowing.

What's amazing is you did report.

Nonstop.

Yeah. And multiple times. And what was the response you were getting?

My very first time I reported, I'll never forget the look on Master Arms' face. It was like dumbfounded. And then it was disgusted. And then he immediately called me a liar. And then he wanted to know how old I was. I was like, I'm 17. He says, oh, he goes, You must be a mama's boy, so you're homesick. That—that's why you're saying these things. And I'm like, I was baffled. I was like, no, for all I wasn't homesick. You know, I—I wasn't homesick. And I was like, no, I'm not lying. This this happened, and it was just like nonstop. You're a liar. You're a liar. Forty nine days before I first snapped. 49 days of reporting this, it was always the same result. You're a liar, you're a liar. Where's your proof? It doesn't happen.

Do you think, Heath, that they didn't want to believe it was happening but knew it was happening, and by calling you a liar, it was their way of covering up? Or do you think they honestly didn't believe this was possible?

They knew. Back then, I didn't know they knew, but they knew. Everybody on the show— I mean, on the 49th day when I tried hanging myself and then Chief Petty Officer brings me down and he smacked me in my face and told me I need to man up and, you know, fight for myself, basically. It kind of clicked. I'm like, he knows. He doesn't even live in my berthing area and he knows. And 2 of my attackers, they had 17 other victims. So it's not like it wasn't a known thing. It's just nobody cared. They, they would rather avoid this certain situation and hide from it than have to admit that this really happens. And to me, that's very sickening.

Absolutely. And, and this isn't just a military thing. We've seen this happen throughout many different levels of our culture where people cover up instead of wanting to deal with the reality of what's going on in their organization, their community, their institution. We see this happen in many different levels. Now, since that time, since '11, you've started speaking out. And what a lot of people don't realize, you and I know because we speak on military installations, there's an image out there that the military's still operating the way it's always operated, the way it was operating 20 years ago, 10 years, and no one cares about this topic and everybody's trying to cover it up. And the reality is, yeah, when you have hundreds of thousands of people In an organization. There is still sexual violence. Absolutely. There are still some that are working to cover it up. And at the same time, there are very passionate professionals out there, many who are working hard in the military to stop this from ever happening to another human being again. And in fact, I— you and I get to work with the majority of people who have that passion and have that fire. But, but I want you to be able to speak to that. And maybe that's— maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's what I see in where I'm traveling the world working in the military. Do you feel the same? Or do you think, no, we, we don't have enough people? I mean, we want more, obviously.

I'll be honest with you. It has come a long way. Phenomenal. If I would have reported this now, we're all of a sudden here now, and this is happening to me. There's so many different options that can help me. I can get transferred, I can get moved, this person get transferred. You'll have cover-ups, that, that's a gimme. But the cover-ups now are nothing compared to what they were 20 years ago because this is more of an eggshell issue. And I'll be honest with you, I speak with the SHARP divisions, the sexual harassment assault response programs. These people are so dedicated I'll be honest, it sucks that we have to have these programs. I'm glad that we do because now there's somebody there to actually help a victim. Where, like in my case, there was nothing. There was— the alcohol was what helped me. And they also have the programs where now they're talking about bystander intervention, which is something that I touch on because for me it's a personal issue because being on board my ship And not having one person ever extend the hand out to help me, that's just as harmful to me as when I was being assaulted.

Yeah. And what a lot of people don't realize is today you have in the SHARP program— now if it's Navy, it'd be called SAPR— but, uh, you have victim advocates and you have a SARC. And some of those people can be civilians, some of those people can be active duty. But there are very specific roles they play that guarantee confidentiality unless you want to pursue the case in a judicial format, and that would be called an unrestricted. But you can go restricted and have a one-on-one conversation. It stays completely confidential. And a lot of people just don't realize this. And at the time, in, in '09, even if that existed, they weren't doing the training to teach you that existed or what was available to you. Where now they have to go through training on a regular— I always tell people, they think, oh, colleges are better at this than the military. No, no, no, no, no. Colleges might hear about this at orientation. The military has to hear— go through this training every year of their career so they know all the resources that are available.

And sometimes some bases do it twice a year.

That's right.

Even more beneficial.

Yeah. And when it gets really beneficial is when they realize installations, Regions, Department of Defense realizes just doing our 3-hour mandated Department of Defense training is not enough. We need to bring people like Heath in. We need to bring— you know, that's why we get to do the work we do, because installations realize we need outsiders with unique perspectives, not just people from within. Now, you also are an outsider, but you come from within.

Yes, and I also bring Something different than PowerPoint. Yesterday, I spoke at Fort Drum with victim advocates. I do that monthly. I go and speak to their classes and I give them a different perspective because now it's personal. I think with any base installation, DOD, even the Pentagon would be able to benefit from people like you and I coming in because we make it personal. We make it— it's not the generic form that you're seeing from their PowerPoints and paperwork. We bring in our whole entire repart— you know, everything. They're like, oh shoot, wow. They don't realize all things that really happen.

Yes. So what do you say to the person listening who maybe is old school military? And I know you've gotten this pushback. I'm guessing you've gotten this pushback because I certainly get in, you know, comment sections of articles on my work, uh, the trollers of what's happened to our military, that they can't, you know, that they're worrying about this stuff instead of killing the enemy. How do you, how do you react to that? Do you see that stuff, or do you just blow it off, or how do you view that when you see that kind of trolling?

See, I get that trolling occasionally. Like, Senator Gillibrand's working on the Military Justice Improvement Act, which I'm on the fence with it. I See both sides. So—

Can we pause and help people understand the both sides? Because you and I know, know the act, but a lot of people don't. If I believe you're specifically referring to whether these should all be handled civilian or they should be handled at the military level, because what happens now is in the end, it's military justice.

Yes.

And even if civilians are involved, it goes through military justice. And Jill Moran is saying Hey, no, we gotta take that element out of it. But then leadership says, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, that breaks down the whole military environment. And that's why you're saying, I see both sides.

I think what bothers me, for one, is politics. But for two, if we take this away from the command, what are we gonna take away next? You know, that's how I look at it. SHARP is not perfect, but like anything else, Once you start getting the wheels spinning and you get all the bugs and you figure out everything, that's, that's how you start making things better. You know, I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm not saying it's right. It's just, you know, they want me on board with them and it's kind of hard to get on board when you're on the fence. So it's like, you know, sell it to me. And so far I haven't been sold. So—

No, I would— you know what? I love, Heath, that you're addressing this and you're, you're sharing your authentic view because our show is all about respect.

Right.

And so, to pressure someone into a belief they don't have is not respectful. Now, to educate somebody to shift their beliefs, that's a different discussion. That, that's because they make the choice based on education. But to say we almost feel this way because we all come from a like-minded situation, no, we're still going to be unique in this. And I think that's what's so important in your discussion is, you know, a lot of people think, well, Jesus, a military survivor, of course you're going to say civilian. It should all be civilian, especially the way you were treated. And yet you're going, wait, I still have an understanding of the military system that I honor and I respect. And I think that's probably for some surprising.

Yeah. That's where I get my lovely— I call them zombies, you call them trolls. That's where I get them. They're like, what do you mean you're not on board? We're survivors. We stick together. Yeah, we're supposed to stick together, but I'm one of the few survivors that actually goes on bases. I'm one of the few survivors that actually works with DOD. So I am the eyes that sees the change that's starting to happen. Culture change is going to be probably the hardest thing to ever do in this world. It takes time. It's just like inventions. How long did it take us to decide we wanted to use the wheel? You know, it takes time to implement a bill to immediately destroy something that's been going on for years in a chain of command. You really have to weigh the pros and the cons. And that's why I said I see both sides. That's why I'm on the fence, because maybe if you word it differently, Maybe if you make it so they work together, then yes. But to just take something straight away from a commander kind of bothers me.

Sure. No, I respect, I respect because you understand the hierarchy you worked in and you grew up in it too. And so that brings a different perspective. You grew up in a family environment of military. And so that has an impact too. What are the ways that you feel, you know, obviously all sexual violence is a lack of someone being treated with respect. And the show is all about respect. There's a complete lack of it. So, what do you think is the number one connection you make when you're sharing with people of anyone to try to help them understand the importance of respect and dignity and how that lacks when this behavior takes place?

Well, I'll be honest with you. I have this method that I've been using for the last year. I don't do it at every Event that I do, but I share my experiences, what happened to me. And then at the end, I turn it around and I ask everybody to close their eyes. The whole audience close their eyes. Then I start doing this reverse psychology gizmo that I once learned. And I asked them, you know, you guys heard everything I said. Now start putting that into feelings. You know, you're in the military. What if this was your mom and dad that came and talked to you? You know, process how you start feeling. And then I throw it out, you know, what if it was your brother or sister? And if I got an older crowd, I'll ask them, well, what if this was your son or your daughter that came and talked to you about this? And then my last thing I always say, better yet, what if this was you? What if this was you up here sharing this? How would you feel? How would you want things to change? You know, what would your response be? And I'll be honest, I've had grown men cry, and I didn't think I would ever get that effect, but I have. And then I asked them to open their eyes, and then I start interacting with them. I'm like, hey, how would you feel? You know, what would you want different? And I think that goes a long way. Because the answers you start getting back is like, well, I'd want my command to help me. I would want them to listen. I would want, as you're saying, the same respect that I should be getting. It's just amazing how differently they are when I do that.

Yeah, it humanizes, it totally humanizes the discussion.

Especially when, you know, I nail them when they're half asleep.

Yeah, that's what people don't realize is that there— some people are coming to these planning to sleep because they think they've heard it all before. And when I say that, I don't want people listening thinking all. No, it could be 2 out of 100. But when you're presenting, you notice 2 people sleeping out of 100.

And you know, I'm— I call myself an a-hole on this, but if I'm spending my time coming up there I actually— and it's not pinpointing them to get them in trouble. I'll admit, because I walk, I can't stand at a podium, I walk. I'll point and say, hey, you, where are you from? Just to give them a point that, hey, you know, give me some respect. You know, I'm up here doing this. And I do that all the time.

Yeah. And people don't realize that. People go, oh, you're picking on them. I'm not picking on them. I'm engaging. It's my job to impact as many people as possible in that room. So if I see you're not engaged, it's my job to engage you. Now, that doesn't mean you have to, you're going to like me or you're going to want to listen to me, but I have to at least attempt the engagement. And that's what I love what you're describing. You're making sure that you're engaging them, which, which is actually respecting them.

Right.

Because I'm, I'm going to make sure your time is valuable in here. You came in here. I want to make this an amazing experience, ideally for you.

And also, I don't want to see them like get PT'd outside because they're caught sleeping.

That's right, because that will— for those who aren't aware, what'll happen is—

I got their 6, unfortunately. Sometimes it's unfortunate, but you know, I got their 6, you know, right, in different directions. So I'll give you an example. I spoke at Fort Leonard Wood this year, and the guy right in the front row was nodding and nodding, and, and I was trying to ignore him because Because I didn't want to, you know, make him get in trouble. So what I did is I asked a question to the lady behind him, but I bumped into his leg so that way he kind of opened up his eyes. And then I stepped up and I said, oh, and let me ask you this. And he came up and thanked me afterwards. He just said, oh, so I really didn't know how to do push-ups today.

Well, and to be fair, you and I know this, that our listeners might not realize Sometimes they're going to this training after a full workload, and I mean a heavy, physically exhausting workload, and this is the end of the day.

Not only that, but some of these guys haven't sat all day. You know, they're out all day long rocking it or something, and then they're coming in and the air's on, you know, because I'm, you know, there to speak, so they don't want it hot for me. Oh, but You know, so now they're in a comfortable area. So I understand, because I remember boot camp, and I remember rucking all day and then sitting down in class going, oh, yeah.

What do you think is the biggest misconception about military sexual trauma?

That it only happens to women. I think that is the biggest misconception out there, period.

And what do you think is the biggest misconception about the military in this topic?

That they don't care? Because I know they do. They do. They do. Yeah. Go for the challenge coin. I don't go for their certificates. I go in for bliss. Their general is like, so strict on sexual assault.

Were you there recently?

I was. I spoke there last year.

Okay. Yeah, I know who you're talking about. So that's it.

He is Like, this is not happening in my command. And I'm like, whoa, wow. That I respect.

Well, the ones who show fire change the game, right? When you have leadership that says, not like that, like in that situation, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna allow this in my command, but I'm also gonna support survivors if it does happen, right? That, and shows that versus the ones who goes, all right, let's get through this. We gotta get through it. That's not leadership. That's toeing the line to follow the requirements.

Yeah. I've had a few of them events.

Yep. You'll, you meet them even with, they sometimes support you coming in because then they don't have to address it. Right? So you get 2 different kinds of leadership, but when you get the leader who's fired up, you're like, I want to keep working with you because you're going to keep reinforcing the right messages. And that's so important. So I'm glad you brought that up. This misconception that nobody cares in the military when there's Thousands, I mean, literally thousands of people in the military who care deeply about—

Well, look at how large the military is. And I think that's another misconception that people have. The military is huge. So to actually keep an eye on every single person is never going to happen. You know, we get— we're overseas, we're, you know, inland, we're on the seas, we're in the air. So how Can a commander keep an eye? And yes, it trickles down, you know, down to the lower levels, but—

Yeah. And that, that's where bystander intervention comes in. And, and you talk about that and we talk about that because then you get it down to the individuals all looking out for each other, which is so important. Heath, you've been amazing. Fantastic. During this journey, was there ever a book or resource that was really helpful for you?

I, I just recently read The Tipping Point. Um, a friend of mine told me that I reminded them of something from The Tipping Point, so I had to read it. I was like, oh, I got to read this. It took me a while to read it because it's just not my style of reading.

Yeah, it's not an easy— it's not— and I don't mean easy as in somebody has to be intelligent or not intelligent. It's just not a quick read. It— you have to stop and process.

You, you have to think about it and actually understand what you just read. And I'm very thankful she told me about it. She's a Lieutenant Colonel in the Marine Corps Reserves. She works for MOAA, Military Officers Association of America, and she is a huge MST, you know, an advocate for that. So when she told me this, I'm like, ah, it took me a while to read it.

Sure, sure. That's understandable.

I'm a fast reader, but that was like—

Well, I want to thank you so much for sharing your strength, your journey. And it's the epitome of what we talked about and living with respect. You're out there making an impact, letting people know they deserve that respect and here are their options. So thank you, Heath, for all you, you've done both on our show and that you're doing around the world.

Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. And thank you for everything you do.

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