30: Beth Mund Shares her Journey at NASA and Respecting Your Dream
In this episode of the Mutually Amazing Podcast, host Mike Domitrz interviews Beth Munn, a public affairs officer at NASA who reached the agency through a career in writing, communication, and storytelling rather than the traditional scientist or engineer path. Beth recounts how a childhood dream led her to pursue journalism, a series of odd jobs, and eventually a civil‑service role at NASA’s Human Spaceflight Center. She describes her experience during the Columbia disaster, explaining how NASA’s detailed contingency binders guided her response as the first point of contact for media inquiries, and how the lack of concrete answers made the situation especially challenging. Beth discusses earning respect at NASA, contrasting it with the concept of “validity” for women and under‑represented groups, emphasizing that respect should be unconditional while opportunities must be earned. She shares key lessons she teaches audiences: the importance of having a personal “contingency binder” for life and work, and the myriad everyday technologies that stem from space exploration. The conversation also touches on the gender balance in astronaut selections, the influence of Space Camp on future space professionals, and Beth’s outreach efforts through her website and the Casual Space podcast, which aims to make space topics accessible to non‑technical audiences. Throughout, the dialogue weaves personal anecdotes with broader reflections on mutuality, respect, and how NASA’s operational principles can improve organizational culture.
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Welcome to the Mutually Amazing Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz, with the Center for Respect. The episode you're about to listen to was recorded when this show used to be called the Respect Podcast. So, you might hear that mentioned during this episode. Well, let's get to the show. This week, I get to introduce to you a friend, really cool individual. Beth had a big dream to work at NASA one day, so she did it. Not as a scientist, engineer, or astrophysicist. Beth is an expert writer, communicator, and storyteller. She— now she says she's a horrible joke teller, but she's working on it. We're going to learn all about Beth and how you get to NASA with being an expert writer and communicator and storyteller and some really powerful stories about your experience at NASA. Beth, of course, we haven't said your last name either. Beth Munn, thank you so much for joining us.
Hi, Mike. How's it going?
It is going wonderful. Excited to have you on the show today. I'm going to dive right in so our guests can learn all about you. First of all, how'd you get your path to NASA? I mean, somebody hears writer, communicator, that's not what they think of when they think of NASA.
No, traditionally you think scientist and, like you said, astrophysicist or absolutely engineer. And a lot of people think too that you had to have some kind of military background Which I tried. And as soon as my parents learned, because back in the day they had— did you have an answering service phone? You know, like a— hit the button and it would play back the message, right?
Yes, correct. You mean the little machines, the answering machines? Yep. Yes.
So my parents— I was gone at school and they came home and they hit the play button and it said, hello, this is Sergeant So-and-so calling for Beth. Your appointment tomorrow is at 10:15. We can't wait to meet with you. Congratulations. And my parents I did not tell them that I was trying to get into the Air Force. That was a mess. Let me tell you, when I got home that day, because they were like, what's this? And I said, well, the only way to get to NASA is by joining the Air Force. And they were like, I don't think so. So I had to find another option and another way. And my strength was always being a communicator. It was The reporter in me, the person who wanted to get the data, gather the information, and share it. Little did I know that that skill set was what was going to get me to NASA. So I just honed in on that. And through a number of odd jobs and fun experiences, both corporate and then I call it like a street job, because I think being a reporter for a newspaper is one of the weirdest, hardest, craziest jobs anyone can ever have because you're on deadline and you have no set schedule and everything Everything is like needed yesterday. And it was so fun and so hard. And I just crushed that as much as I could so that it kind of fueled what I was going to need to get to NASA.
Now, what age were you when you set this dream?
Oh my gosh, high school.
Okay. Because if anybody's ever met you, they know if you meet Beth one day and bring up NASA, you're going to see somebody geek out in like instantaneous Right? Yeah, I mean, it's awesome. Your passion for it is just blatantly obvious for anyone around you. So you take this path of being a communicator and you get to NASA in, if I'm understanding right, in the PR situation, correct? In the public relations role?
Yes, they call it a public affairs officer. So it sounds very government because it was. You had— they actually swore me in as a civil servant. So I took an oath. I was standing next to a flag. I put my hand on something and swore to be a government civil servant. It was really cool.
Yeah. Now you're there and you have an incredibly challenging situation happened very, I believe, early on, correct?
It was about 2 years in. Yes.
Okay. So 2 years in, you have an incredibly challenging situation. Are you comfortable with me asking about this?
Yeah, we're going to talk about Columbia, right?
Yes, absolutely. So the Columbia explodes. Your role is what?
I'm the first person to answer the phone in the news office when the whole entire world started to call for answers.
And I assume there's a protocol for what-ifs. Is it, is it this specific that if the shuttle explodes, Well, there's never a what-if with NASA.
Every anomaly that could ever happen has already been determined and calculated. So you and I might fathom like a what-if in our lives, but let's say you build a car. The engineers who built that car have already gone through every single possibility of if the tire falls off, if it stops running in the middle of the highway. So those folks have already done that, right? And the folks at NASA have done the same. And everyone who comes on board gets a book of contingency plans, whether you are the janitor, whether you are someone in an engineering division, whether you're an assembly person, and especially myself as a public affairs officer. And that binder is tailored to you and your responsibilities at NASA. So they're not going to give you an overall binder. It's not like, you know, again, back to the car example, you know, here's your car, something goes wrong, here's everything possible that you need to know. No. If you're only going to be the driver of the car, not the mechanic, and not the person that's going to assist you, then all you need to know is how to safely drive that car. So as a public affairs officer, my contingency binder told me exactly what needed to happen, what I needed to do, and what procedures to follow. And NASA has a backup plan for a backup plan for a backup plan. So everyone knew where to go.
Yeah. So they shifted from a what-if to a when.
Yes, absolutely. That's part of the risk that gets calculated in every single mission.
And so you're answering the call. And are you following— at that point, you do have, you do have protocol in front of you because they plan for this happening. So are you, are you following the script? Or do you have to pause and go, okay, this is a guideline, but I still have to word this right?
So the words did not— they're not scripted. But the procedure is. So the procedure is to answer all phone calls. The procedure is to be the representative and the spokesperson that I was assigned to be on every other regular day. Today was just, or that particular day in February was an anomaly day. And so I did my job just like any other day. However, the procedures were different. So you open up the binder, you work through the contingency plan that has already been established.
Mm-hmm.
There are, and I wanna be very clear, there were no answers. And that was the hardest thing to convey and to report, that we do not know what happened. We did not have any understanding even if the crew was alive or had survived or would be all right or had perished. We did not have that at the time because when I walked in on that Saturday, I wasn't even on duty. A lot of people at NASA will work a mission because they just want to.
Mm-hmm.
And on that particular Saturday, the mission itself was officially ended in the sense that they were scheduled to return, the Columbia crew, on Friday, a whole day earlier. But because of a reentry window that needed to open the following day, they got an extra day in space. So that meant everyone kind of got an opportunity to relax, including the crew and everyone on the ground. They got to relax and enjoy the view and— do some extra activities while on board. And that is a gift. That is not usually scheduled. You couldn't buy that time if you tried. You just can't. So that was already an anomaly that they had gotten an extra day. So the people who were officially assigned to support the mission were officially done on Friday. But on Saturday morning, I was watching with the whole rest of the world, NASA TV, for the coverage. And I saw what everyone saw on their TV, on CNN, and on all the news stations. And I didn't even think. I just went straight into work. I lived on the campus or on the center, and I got into work within 2 minutes. And I sat down and did my job. And I don't remember sleeping, eating, taking a breath for the next 2 and a half, 3 weeks. And I really don't remember much more for the next 2 and a half months. But I did journal. And I'm really grateful I did because looking back, there was so much going on around me I would have otherwise missed if I hadn't captured it. But that's my— that's who I am as a writer. In order for me to process and understand what was going on, I had to write.
So powerful. And I can only imagine the lessons you're able to share because you speak. So, the lessons you're able to share with organizations from that journaling's got to be Unlimited as the possibilities. And to get there though, you had to overcome some challenges. It is what's considered, you know, space and science, the industry for so long, and I believe it could still be, I'm not sure, very male dominated.
Oh yes.
And so how did you earn the respect at NASA and in these roles?
Yeah, good question. The way that you earn respect is you show up. And you do the work. That's it. So there were a lot, you know, do you know that at NASA when we landed on the moon in 1969, the average age of the mission control support staff was 27? 27. Doesn't that blow your mind?
Yeah, that's way younger than people think. And in the movies, they all look like they're all 50-year-old white men in the, in the control room.
Well, that's 'cause they're smoking and they're just, and they're probably already pretty weathered, even though a lot of the men who worked their in the '60s and the '70s, there were still women there. I think everyone has now become familiar with both the book and the movie Hidden Figures.
Powerful story and movie.
Isn't it great? Did you love it?
I did.
And so women were actually everywhere. But what you're referring to now is when I got there and how I worked there was really the same path as most. And that traditional sense of former military that was still present. But that was more evident in the astronaut corps. There were still lots of engineers. There are still lots of physicists. And that's what you want at America's space agency. However, there were a million storytellers and a million other scientists who were women. And they worked just as diligently. And I feel like we had a seat at the table. But it wasn't equal yet. And there wasn't as many of us as I would have liked to see. But that was okay. I was very fortunate to have gotten there finally. It took me many applications and many of them were rejected. And I'm so grateful that the one I got, because 2 of the previous ones were for jobs that I would not have enjoyed. They offered me a job that was an Earth observing scientist writer, which is fantastic at the JPL, the, um, Planetary Research Center. But I ended up working at the Human Spaceflight Center in Houston, Texas. And that's where our astronauts live, work, and train. So that was the perfect place for me because when it came to people and the people that are going into space and making the discoveries and putting up cargo, I loved telling the people story. And there are other folks just like me who are at the other centers telling the propulsion story and the planetary story. And so I just fit right where I was supposed to be.
Well, that's cool. And you love talking about women and women in science. And one of the things you and I've talked about in the past, and you brought this up— hey, Mike, to bring this up— is there's a difference in earning respect and earning validity. What do you mean by that?
Well, I think when you want to earn respect, you want to prove something. You want to have some kind of thing that's tangible that you put out there. And I just feel like there's another part to that, which is Your validity. What makes it— what makes you valid and what validates you to be sitting at the table? And so I don't think that's a degree. I don't think that's your previous history. I think that it should just be an open invitation within our culture if you want to and are capable of doing the work. So women are valid. People with ethnic diversity are valid. This is like without question, right? That's not something that should be earned. That's just something That should be recognized.
Yeah. And I actually teach the same thing with respect. I say we actually, we shouldn't be teaching to earn respect because you should treat every human being with respect. The moment I say you need to earn my respect, it means I am in a role above you. I'm in a power position over you, and you have to do what I want for it to be of value to me versus I respect you just because you're a human being. That's it. Now, whether you earn the right to have certain privileges in this organization, Or to have certain rewards, that's different than earning respect, right? So, you want to earn that job opportunity, you want to earn that raise. Those things can be earned, but respect is something that should be— all people should be treated with it and realize that everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect, both towards myself and towards others. So, I love that conversation. And you talk about there being more female astronauts and what it takes for that to happen. What do you see? Now, I'm fortunate that I get to do a lot of work with the U.S. military, and because of the military background of astronauts, I would assume that part of this is we're also seeing now an influx of women pilots that we did not have 30 years ago. It was almost nonexistent. And usually our astronauts are coming from the pilot program, from what I remember. That could be no longer true. Is that true?
We are almost there, Mike, but we're not yet. So the latest astronaut class was announced. And about every 2 to 3 years, they open up the candidacy program and astronauts are selected from thousands of applicants. And then when they announce the final astronauts, I'm like a kid on Christmas. I want to see who got in and who— of course, I don't have any insight as to who applied and who's going to get it, but I want to see how many women were selected. And in the last astronaut class, I believe And I could be wrong, but I believe that there was 12 total astronauts that were selected and less than half of them were women. So we're not quite there yet. The day that the majority of the astronaut class is women would be awesome. You know, I recently did a speech where I showed in my PowerPoint slide or one of the slides that there were these 4 women on the International Space Station. Well, that happened years ago. There hasn't been that many women in total at the same time on the space station in a long time. But like you said, that's also because we need more women pilots, we need more women engineers, we need more women scientists. And that has slowly become the truth. But that doesn't mean necessarily that they are becoming that translation into astronauts. But if I may, when you look back at the folks who attend space camp, So there's millions of people all over the country and all over the world that come to experience Space Camp, which is kind of this wonderful playground of science and space where you get to play and experiment and experience space, right?
So my cousin used to be a counselor at Space Camp.
That's awesome.
What's his name?
Hurry.
Oh, this is going way back. I mean, she's listening going, thanks, Mike. I'm just talking about based on our age. But Renee Simkus at the time, that was her maiden name.
That's awesome.
Yes.
Because I was a counselor too. And let me tell you, she gets a big gold medal because it is hotter than Hades down there in Huntsville. So good for her. And she was part of the leaders that helped influence our next nation's generation of spacegoers because of all the alumni. And there's hundreds of thousands of us that attended space camp. 5 women have gone on to become astronauts. 5. That's pretty impressive.
That's pretty cool. So they've tracked the, the people that go there as youth and how many of them go on to be astronauts as adults.
Yes. And get this, one time I'm walking through the halls at the Johnson Space Center and I'm pretty fresh. I'm pretty like, it's only been a year. I still have a lot of spring in my step. I'm loving every minute of my life. And I'm walking down the hall and I see this girl and this girl sees me and we're looking at each other and we both put it together in a heartbeat and we're like, Space Camp. So not only did we both go to Space Camp, but we both were like your cousin— like your cousin, was it your cousin?
Yes.
We were both counselors. And there we were at NASA, working at NASA. So there's a bunch that went on to work at NASA, and there's an even smaller bunch, very small, only 5, that went on to space to become astronauts. So whenever people kind of laugh and chuckle at Space Camp, I'm like, Hey, hey, people go from space camp and they start there and then they become astronauts.
So when it comes to that, and you teach about what happens in space, and one of the topics you talk about is respecting each other's personal space in space. Can you elaborate with us on that, Beth?
This is so much fun. Oh my word. Well, first of all, you can't be a claustrophobic astronaut. And nowadays, More so than ever, as I'm sure you're seeing and your listeners are noting, people are being hired based on their ability to get along with others. This is also true at NASA, without a doubt. As a matter of fact, astronauts go on when they're first selected as an ASCAN. That's not a dirty word. It actually stands for astronaut candidate. So it sounds funny though, doesn't it? When you're an ASCAN, You go on like a field trip or a safari or like a— you literally go like wilderness survival training and you are really watched and followed and looked at because they want to see how— not necessarily how you survive. They're going to help you survive and your skills should be pretty on point by the time you're doing that. But how did you get along with your team when you were fatigued, when you were hangry? Were you still pleasant to be around? So when you're up in space, it's no different. You've got to get along. You can't take a break and go for a walk outside. You can't go for a smoking break. You've got to settle in and really have appreciation for each other's talents and a respect for each other's space. Sometimes, most of the time actually, astronauts have designated spaces and it's very much like a tiny little closet and you can go in there and there's like a little curtain that you can pull and it's like the size of a sleeping bag and all your personal belongings are in there along with the computer. And that's your space. But that is such a small part. The rest of the time, you've got to share everything. You've got to share your space. You've got to share experiments. You've got to share the treadmill. You've got to share— astronauts have to give each other haircuts. And it's a team effort. You've got to survive together. So you can't let something like personal space make you suffer an entire system or an entire mission just because you— You have to be respectful, of course, but you've just got to learn. And, you know, they train for years prior, so they know each other really well. They know the good, the bad, and the ugly by the time they're up there.
So what are some— what are like top 2 or 3 lessons that you share with audiences, you share with people from all of these experiences that people can apply to their lives?
Oh, thank you. Thanks for asking. People are always asking me, what are some of the lessons that you learned at NASA? So Yeah. And what you asked me earlier about the Columbia experience was that I had that binder. NASA had the plan and the understanding that when something will happen and does happen, what is the plan? Everyone I tell when I'm on stage should have their own contingency binder in their life and maybe even in your work if possible. So when I went on maternity leave, I went through and I put together a contingency binder and handed it to my staff. And they were like, what's this? And I said, everything you possibly need to know while I'm gone for the next couple of months. And they were like looking through the tabs and they started throwing me out some curveballs like, well, what if this? I'm like, page 62. Well, what if this happens? I'm like, check tab number 4. So I really— it's not about, you know, trying to be a Debbie Downer and think what could possibly go wrong.
Yeah, because I could see people going, this is really dreary. Like, you want me to go home and think of all the worst things that could happen to my family? So, how do you balance out what to do contingencies on? Like most people would say, if you're married, you should have this plan for if one of you— something happened to one of you. Very few people do. Very few people even have a will or a trust. But even if you have a will or a trust, there still often isn't a living plan, like how I'm going to live my life after that. Right.
So, let's put it this way. If you've communicated your life's wishes in any way, shape, or form, at work, at home, personally, to one person, Is that enough? It's really not. So if you write it down, anyone can either have access to that if needed, or someone can look at that and say, this is pretty clear, she wrote it down. And that's what I'm talking about in the contingency binder. And I think any life insurance person or representative would tell you the same. It's only about planning and having a plan. That's it. It's the same thing about when your kids like Whoever has kids, I'm sure has had the discussion what to do if you encounter a stranger, what to do one day if mommy's not home and you get to the house before mommy. Here's how you let yourself in. That's just a plan. My difference is I'm asking everyone to have that contingency binder in case you're not of right mind, in case there's other stressors, in case something really throws you that curveball. And now when you're not functional, like literally cannot function like we were at NASA where we were just like, We were all looking at that screen and we were all seeing the same thing the whole rest of the world was seeing. Open the binder and start. Here's another great story. When I had my first child, my mom came over and she said, here's the best advice I can give you. Put the baby down. And I was like, what? What are you talking about? Well, you're just baby brain and you're crazy and you don't know what the baby needs yet and you've never held this thing before and it's just So emotionally overstimulating. And if you just put it down, then you can step away for a second and think like, oh, I should probably get a bottle ready. Just put it down. Isn't that funny?
That is.
Same thing as NASA. Defining the purpose of the mission helps you stay on mission and make it successful. So you asked me earlier, what other things do I share on stage? And another thing I say all the time is, If you love space or if you are a space geek or if you have anyone who's ever wondered about how does space touch my life or how can I get involved or invested, I always show them the hundreds of thousands of benefits that we have from space-based technology. And that is something audience loves. They just can't get enough of that. Like glasses that have lenses that protect us from the sun, filtered air systems, filtered water drinking systems. Lots of things that I can go on and on forever. I think I'm going to be doing a whole episode separate on my podcast on just space-based spinoffs. So those are the 2 things that audience most resonate with, a contingency plan that's in a binder, and you can put that into pretty much anything in your life. And then the space-based technologies that we have gained from our exploration of space.
I love it. And you're a big fan of 3 books, Tom Wolfe's The Right Stuff, Etiquette by Peggy Post, and any book by Nancy Drew. So, right, I love that. I love that you wrote that. You also have a website, bethmund.com, for anyone listening, but you also have casualspace.org. What's casualspace.org?
Yeah, it's casualspacepodcast.com. Thank you. And it's so fantastic. It just launched, and it is the place where us space geeks can totally geek out. It's the place where I have interviews and shared stories, and we highlight the space stuff that is non-technical. It's not formal, it's not scripted. We just talk space. It is so much fun. And I would love it, Mike, if you would be a guest on the show for Casual Space, because that's it. We just enjoy talking about black holes and what Elon Musk said last week and what's the next rocket that's going to launch and why do we go to space and is there aliens? And we just have a bunch of fun talking about those kinds of topics.
I would love to be on, that's for sure. And you know, I love just hanging out and chatting with you. So I would absolutely be thrilled to be on.
Let's do it.
All right, that sounds great. Hey, I want to thank you, Beth. You've just been awesome as always. Your energy is just so contagious. It's, it's just fantastic to be around. Thank you so much.
Oh, Mike, thank you for giving the opportunity to me, and I really appreciate what you do as well, because helping you serve as an advocate for voices everywhere is so very valuable. We can't thank you enough. And when it comes Well, I think when it comes to talking about respect, you are the leader in the industry. I love that you have conversations like this because it helps women especially, and it helps women who are scientists and engineers and a lot of women who want to have that validity and want to have that already present respect that everyone should not earn but already have. We all say thank you.
Well, thank you very much, Beth. And for all listeners, you know what's coming up next. Next up is our question of the week. Before I answer this week's question of the week, I'd love to ask you a question. Would you please subscribe to this podcast, The Respect Podcast with Mike Domitrz? By subscribing, you can make a huge impact. Now, you might be wondering, Mike, how does my subscribing to your podcast make a huge impact? Well, here's how. For every person that subscribes, raises the rankings of the show in the search engines. So for people who care about respect like yourself, when they're doing a search for podcasts, they're more likely to find this show, thus providing an awesome opportunity for us to spread more respect around this world. And all you do is hit subscribe under your podcast. Plus, the second benefit is by subscribing, you automatically get every episode right into your phone or whatever device you are listening to the podcast on. It happens automatically. So subscribing also makes your life easier. Now let's get into this week's question of the week. Oh, and by the way, you can always ask your questions of the week by joining us on Facebook in our discussion group. It's called the Respect Podcast Discussion Group. Go there on Facebook and ask whatever questions you would like me to answer and/or address in this segment of the show. And then listen to each episode to find out when your question This week's question of the week is, Mike, how do we teach mutuality in the corporate workplace? Now, as many of you know, this is what I do for major corporations and organizations of all sizes is helping them learn this lesson. I'm going to give a super short answer to this. Here's the key. When you don't lead with mutuality, you tend to lead with dictation, which means you need to do this, you need to do that, and you over there need to do this. So then what happens is you have management always trying to hold everyone accountable to the jobs you dictated they do, which is very unhealthy because nobody has buy-in and people feel like they just have to. They're not doing it because they genuinely want to. When you have mutuality, you have everyone on the project doing something they want to contribute. They know they bring as a strength or an asset to the project. And when you have that, you have what's called buy-in. And when you have buy-in, that's when you don't have to hold people accountable because they hold themselves accountable. And that's what my friend Sam Silverstein, the person on accountability in the world, that's what he teaches, that accountability is not by management holding people accountable. It's because you have buy-in on such a level that individuals hold themselves accountable. And that's the beauty of mutuality. Everyone holds themselves accountable. Because they respect their roles and everyone's roles in this mission because this was mutually agreed upon. We came together at a place we all wanted to be there together on that journey together. That's mutuality in the corporate workplace. We'd love to hear your questions, your thoughts, and your ideas. And the best place to leave those with us is on our Facebook page at facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast. Of course, you can always contact us on our website at mutuallyamazingpodcast.com. Remember to subscribe to this show so you automatically get it every week. And if you could take one moment to leave a review, that really helps other people find the show, which we are greatly appreciative of. So thank you so much for joining us. May you make today and every day a life full of mutually amazing relationships.
