32: Tony Chatman on the Truth on Unconscious Bias

Welcome to the Mutually Amazing Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz, with the Center for Respect. The episode you're about to listen to was recorded when this show used to be called the Respect Podcast, so you might hear that mentioned during this episode. Well, let's get to the show. And this week, we want to dive right in so you can meet Tony Chapman. He's a chemical engineer, turned keynote speaker, a corporate relationship expert, and a guy who is trying to change the world while having a blast in the process. Tony, thank you so much for joining us.

Hey, Mike, thanks for having me.

Absolutely. And one of your areas of expertise is discussing unconscious bias. So, for all of our listeners, what is unconscious bias?

Sure. The easiest way to think of unconscious bias, and this is important because Honestly, it's such a hot topic that there's a lot of information, and in that flow of information, there's a lot of misinformation. The brain can really be broken into 2 thinking systems. There's our very logical, you know, rational thinking system that we normally think of, but then there's that what I call rapid cognition. It's what's attached to all of our fight-or-flight mechanisms. It's when you, you You see a spider and you immediately have fear before you realize why you have it. Unconscious bias are really the prejudices and preferences and narratives that are stored within that rapid cognition that's attached to all of the emotional centers of the brain. It's why we have certain feelings. We size people up very quickly without even knowing it and determine whether we trust them, whether we like them, whether they're safe. All of those areas are wrapped up into that unconscious bias.

And when people hear that and they hear something, words like prejudices we may have, wow, they become defensive. Like, I don't have prejudice. And right away they fight, they push back from this unconscious bias. So how do you help people understand when you hear that word, it's not to take offense. It's that it's caused by the way, the culture we're raised in, the world we're raised in. Sure.

So when I talk about it, first, I really do break it into those 2 thinking systems. And when I define unconscious bias, I tell people, yeah, we have prejudices. I have a prejudice. I like pineapple juice over apple juice. There's nothing necessarily good or bad about it. It's just there. It's the fact that we have certain ones in our subconscious that are affecting us. And then what I really like to do is talk about the stats, and the stats help people see things. For example, in the United States, 75 people—I'm sorry—75% of people have an unconscious preference for white people over black people, which literally means they view white as being good, smart, and safe, and black as being the opposite. 76% of people more readily associate men with having careers and females with staying home with a family. Right? 76% of people also. Have an unconscious preference for people who are able-bodied versus people who are disabled. But then I come back and say, well, now let me tell you what I didn't just say. I did not just say that 75% of white people have a preference for white over black, did I? No, I said 75% of people. See, that's not how bias works. It's more of a function of how we're programmed, and because of that You can have a bias that's against your own self-interest and a bias that's against what you consciously know to be good, moral, and true. And so unconscious bias is in no way and cannot be used as a barometer of morality. It's not an indication of whether you're good or bad. It's totally a function of how you've been programmed, how you've been raised, what you've watched on TV and in movies, all of these other things that are literally programming our subconscious. And it's normally when I say that multiple times that the defenses begin to drop, because now we're on an even playing field.

Yeah, I'll never forget, I think it was almost 2 decades ago, and I might be— I could very well be wrong about who said this, so I apologize for that up front, but the statement was, I believe it was Jesse Jackson who said, look, I'm a Black man, and if I'm walking down the street late at night, I have noticed that I move away from a young Black man walking towards me, or want to cross the street because I've been raised in the same culture that even though I should know better, I've been raised in this world that says that's danger coming my way versus if that was somebody else coming my way, I wouldn't react that way.

Right.

That's why I think what you said is so important is that I right away, when you said the numbers, 75%, my brain immediately said, well, 75% means the far majority of all genders, all sexual orientations, all identities fall into that.

Yeah, now, you know, there's a, there's a flip side to that coin though too. So if I say 75%, I didn't say 75% of all white people, I said 75% of all people because we know that approximately 40% of Black people have a preference for white over Black, 40% of Black people have a preference for Black over white, and 40% of Black people are neutral. But in saying that, I also don't want it to be a sense of, oh, then it's okay. Because that's the other danger, right, is that when you start saying that, yeah, I want to take the stigma away, but that does not make it any less dangerous. And so it becomes this, this intense balancing act of helping people to see, yeah, from a neuroscientific standpoint, we have to realize that we all have biases, but we also have to deal with the effects of those biases. And that's what we're really responsible and accountable for. Yeah.

And I think that's what's so important here is that, look, once I recognize the bias, now I choose what to do with it. To say, well, it's a bias, so I don't— I just— it's the way I think. No, you choose at that moment what to do with that bias. You choose to say, I am not going to let that bias— because I'm recognizing it. When we don't recognize it, obviously we're not able to do this. But when we recognize it, then we have a moment to pause and go, okay, Am I going to make a choice knowing that bias is making the choice? Or am I going to say, no, I want to separate that bias from this. Now, what choice would I make? That's really what we're talking about is the key to moving forward. Correct?

Well, that's certainly one of the keys. I would definitely agree with you. Part of the challenge is people aren't aware of their biases. They think that they're more neutral and objective than they really are. Technology has helped us in amazing ways in the last 10 to 15 years, especially the advancement of functional MRIs. So what fMRIs tell us is that the majority of decisions that we make on a daily basis originate out of our subconscious minds, which is really shocking when you think about it, because we think we're more rational and objective and logical than we really are. We far more are reliant on those unconscious biases. And the challenge is we're not aware of them. When we become aware of them, that really allows us to be able to address them, just as you said. But becoming aware of them is really the great challenge.

Well, yeah, and not falling into the trap of when we see a bias or we learn of a bias from one source different than ourselves, Taking that as the new sample to run with. What I mean by that is I could have easily been an example of that one moment ago, right? I could have said 20 years ago, oh, Jesse Jackson said that. I'm a white male, that's a black male, so Jesse Jackson represents all black males in that statement. And now run with that. And I think we see that a lot politically now. People say, well, this one person over here said this, so see, this isn't harming all those people because this one person said this isn't harming those people. And people use it in a negative fashion.

Absolutely. I mean, that's— you're hitting it right on the head. And that's not done by accident, right? We know that there are people who are intentionally doing that to justify behaviors. And, you know, unfortunately, and this is one of the disappointing parts of our brains when it comes to biases, because biases are tied into parts of our brain that are fight-or-flight mechanisms, their survival mechanisms. Our brain is often more concerned about being fast than being correct in those situations. So it makes broad generalizations because that's how we're wired. It's a survival thing. And so it takes extreme effort to, in that very moment, like you just said, to say, okay, this one Black male made this statement, but he's not representative of all Black males. And that becomes a challenge.

Yes, and acknowledging that, and what sources do I need to learn more to reveal the unconscious bias, right? 'Cause that's really what's gonna come down to. I'm gonna need more sources. The right way to look at this would be, well, that has opened a door of possibility by me hearing that comment. Now, what do I need to do to learn more to see how much credibility there is to that comment? That'd be the right approach, correct? Or the— I shouldn't say right or wrong, but the healthy approach.

Well, that'd be a healthy approach. And, you know, the healthy approach would be, well, hey, let me find more Black men or more Black people and get their opinion if they feel safe to give it to me. You know, that would be a great way to do it. Unfortunately, we often don't have the time, ability, or even resources to pull that off.

Well, and I also love what you said there, if they feel safe saying it to me. You know, because a lot of people don't realize that, look, if, if I'm a person that society has in power and I come up to you and I ask you an opinion about me, society has taught you to keep me happy. And society has taught you, don't upset him. Uh, he doesn't do well with things. If you're the party in power, that's typically how society has taught us to treat those people. You don't, if someone's in power, upset the apple cart, right? That's the That's a cliché that people use all the time. So, I also have to be conscious of, you might be giving me the answer I wanna hear.

Yeah, yeah. So, let me, you know, rewind for a moment. You mentioned at the beginning that I'm a chemical engineer. That is partially true, and that's what I use in my bio. So, technically, my major in college was paper science, which is a very specific advanced form of chemical engineering. geared towards the paper industry, right? Now, here's what's fascinating about that. I went to a college that had an undergraduate class of about 22,000 people. I am the second African American in the history of that university to graduate with that degree. Since my sophomore year in college, I have been the only Black person in the room. And so I'm very aware of what is safe and what is not safe in a variety of different situations.

Yeah. And what's, what's amazing there is most people think the opposite, right? They think, well, you were in this culture. I shouldn't say most, that's a dangerous line to say. A lot of people could think, well, you succeeded in that environment because that proves that there's no bias in that environment, that you can be yourself, that you can thrive. Right? I mean, that's, that's a line that we hear a lot.

Yeah, unfortunately, and they don't realize it's the exact opposite, like you said. You know, it was in spite of all those difficulties and challenges and, and learning how to be very thick-skinned because things that were offensive were said to me all the time, whether intentionally or not. Learning how to, you know, look past people's immediate behaviors and say, is that intentional? Is that ignorance? And, you know, there are a lot of people who just decided it wasn't worth it. And for me, it wasn't that I had this vision of being, you know, the Jackie Robinson of the paper industry by any stretch. It was just I had a goal in mind and I wanted to hit it. And I was very good at working within other racial ecosystems.

Well, and I think that's so brilliant for people to be able to hear and understand that. Look, that person who made it through that, that just tells you how good they are, how intelligent they are, how brilliant they are at being able to manage situations and overcome, and how much determination there is there.

So that's where this becomes fascinating, right? Because I do this, do these workshops on unconscious bias. And for me, unconscious bias is not just about race, right? So for example, studies have been done. If you take a resume, And you send it out to human resources professionals, the ones— if you put certain resumes with a man's name and certain with a woman's name, and they're the exact same resume, 79% of those with the man's name are going to be viewed as worthy of hire. 49% of those with a woman's name are going to be viewed as worthy of hire. So literally, men have a 60% better shot with the same credentials, which means, yeah, do women succeed? Absolutely. But most likely, the qualification standards that are gonna be used towards them are gonna be far more stringent. They're going to have to perform better to get the same.

We're seeing more of those discussions come up in the last 5, 10 years. How do we help people recognize, to be aware of their own possibility of unconscious bias? You know, I always, when I'm training people on, the military will bring me in, or corporations will say, hey, can you help train us on how you do what you do? Not, they're not sure, I'm not giving them my speech. But I'm training them on how to engage audiences in these conversations. And one of the questions I ask when I'm working with them is they have my workbook in front of them. It says, you can never be blank inclusive. And people always have all these answers. The one that it is, is you can never be 100% inclusive because you don't know your biases.

Right.

You don't know what you just said that excluded somebody from the conversation because you don't know what you don't know. So the The question is, how do we become more aware? How do we become more sensitive to the possibility that what we're saying is having an impact we're not aware of?

Sure. Well, there's multiple ways. First, you know, the standard way would be to say, take the implicit associations test, right? That's the test that was developed by Harvard and MIT and University of Virginia. It's on Harvard's website. It's actually, if you Google implicit associations test, You can take it on a variety of different dimensions, right? That's the simple way. I don't think that that's needed by most people. The first thing is to be open to feedback. What does that mean? If I'm in a situation and something happens and I say, "Wow, you know, could there have been you know some bias in your decision making?" The open-minded person would say, "Huh, let me think about that." The unopen-minded person will go, "Hey, I'm not a racist. Are you playing the race card?" And you could see all these other scenarios building up. The truth of the matter is we get a lot of feedback, and we often don't take it because we're not willing to view ourselves as non-perfect. And the minute we're willing to say, "You know what? If I'm not perfect," Then I have blind spots, and this person may not have the intention of trying to hurt me. They may be just trying to help me to see my blind spot. That would open up a lot of doors. I think the second would be— the second would be to change your friend group. And that was one that I personally had to do, you know. So I'll be— I'm good at being real and transparent. and not always PC. You know, here it is. I grew up in a very religious household, in a very religious environment, and especially maintained that or reincorporated that after college, right? I became very religious. I had to ask myself, so how do I feel about the LGBTQ community? I mean, really, if I talk about— especially now that I talk about unconscious bias, But even before that, if I'm going to maintain that I'm such a good person, I've got to go back and say, based on things that I've been taught, things that I've been heard— things that I've heard, things that I've been exposed to— what are my real thoughts? And the best way to change those thoughts is to begin spending more time with people of that demographic. And so And it's easier to do as a professional speaker because there are tons of professional speakers who are in the LGBTQ community. So now here's, here's what I didn't do. I didn't say, hey, they're LGBTQ, let me go hang out with them. I just found environments where they were more likely to be. And as they revealed themselves to be who they are, it helped me to see, well, no, that person's just that person. And it began to change my paradigm. But I knew I had to change my friend group. And here's why that's so important. The Public Religious Research Institute says that 70% of white Americans do not have a Black friend. So 70% of white Americans don't have a Black friend, and that's self-reported. When they're asked, do you have a Black friend? They name all their friends. It says, so how many of these are Black? Oh, none. Okay, 70%.

Yeah, which means there could be more than that that don't, because some people are gonna Naturally, yes, I do, out of guilt conscious, right? Or that someone's in my circle, so I call that my Black friend.

Yeah, exactly. So now, when that person sees something on the news, when they see something in a movie, when they hear this, see that, they have no benchmark to go and compare that to. And so, and they have no feedback mechanism to say, well, okay, I see that, but I know Tony. And I know Steve and I know Francis and I know all of these other people who can help me to go, wow, that's not accurate. And for me to start believing that means I need to question my own thought processes. So that really can help.

Absolutely. And I— let's go back to the feedback one because I think you might've seen this happen. I think you might be in this— we're in the same Facebook group where this happened about receiving feedback. Recently, some speakers were talking about, I come off stage, somebody gives me unsolicited feedback. How do you handle this? And in the speaking world, there was this debate going on in this forum about, I tell them, thank you for offering, but I'm not looking for feedback right now. Like, they'll give that response. And the first time somebody told me this was in this past year. And at the moment I went, oh, that's brilliant because you're vulnerable at that moment. It might not be a good time to hear feedback. And then I just stepped back and go, wait a second here. That's a real potential abuse of power in that I'm in front of a stage. All of us speakers are, and we are connecting with an audience and we're potentially opening up emotional spaces for that audience to learn and grow. And then you come up to me afterwards to have a sincere, authentic feedback experience with me. And I tell you, nope. Nope. I get to close the door here because I don't want this right now. I'm in a sensitive place right now. This could hurt me to hear negative feedback. And what a place of privilege we have to recognize that we even think, yeah, I have the right to shut you down. I know that I just potentially opened something up for you, but you don't have the right to open something up for me. And I know it's done as self-protection, but I really don't think it's self-protective. Self-protective is I just took an hour on stage and we interacted our lives and you want to take 15 to 30 seconds to potentially help me. I need to listen. And if, if I need to be strong to be, oh, this, have this warrior shield on me, that can come up when I leave this room. That can come up 5 minutes later. But right now I need to be present for you. Do you think that's a good example of be careful of protecting Because I'm sensitive or I'm vulnerable versus hear it and then decide, you know, how much value there is in that?

It depends on the situation is what I'm going to say. And I say that because, you know, you and I speak about topics that elicit very strong emotions, correct? Especially understanding unconscious bias. I am approached as a Black man Very differently than I'd be approached as a white male, and I see that just in life. That is just a reality of what I have to deal with. Okay, there are times where I think it is valuable in the moment to have a constructive feedback conversation after a workshop. There are other times, though, where I think it's really important. That both parties have a moment to get their thoughts together and their emotions under wraps. Because if they don't, it's easy to have a conversation that's not really about the issue, but it's about the emotion that I felt in that moment. And if I respond to that emotion versus having the awareness to say, okay, wait, wait, I hear you saying that, but is that really— look, how do we dig into the real issue? And, you know, that may have been misheard You know, all these things. It's sometimes giving the other person a moment to get their thoughts and emotions together. Because I can tell you, there are times where I am a victim of a bias that if I address it in that moment, it is going to be extremely unhealthy. One of the best pieces of advice I've ever been given, right? It's when you're, when you're in the middle of a conflict. What's the worst thing you could say? The worst thing you could say is whatever makes you feel good in that moment, because that is a self-serving phrase, right? In that moment. So, you know, I think that there's two sides of it. I think if it's just for self-protection, that becomes very dangerous. But if they could be open up to, hey, look, I'd like to have a real conversation with you about this. Can we, you know, maybe 15 minutes, 20 minutes later, kind of come together and And that way I can give you 5 or 10 minutes of uninterrupted space to really hash this out. I think that could be beneficial for both. So, I think it's important to have the feedback, but to also figure out how to make that feedback constructive.

Well, and I love what you did right there because whether you're a speaker or in any job, to say to somebody, can we come back together in 15, 20 minutes or in 2 hours? Let's say it's in the workplace. And have this conversation where we've had time to, you know, really think about— I think that's brilliant because anybody could take that approach. And I want to thank you, Tony, because you right there showed— helped me reveal the privilege of when I walk off stage as a white man, I'm not fearing the feedback. But some people could be, and I'm not saying you would be, but some could be. It's possible that due to gender or orientation, that feedback could become dangerous in some ways. For some people. I just thought, well, due to my own experiences, why wouldn't I? Except for the fact that I might not be in a place to hear it at that moment, which is still important. But that was very helpful.

Thank you. I appreciate that. And I think you just, you hit it on the nose. You know, it's one thing for me to feel that as a Black male, but what about as a white female, right? They could feel all sorts of things depending on how the person approaches them. And they probably deal with many power struggles. I shouldn't say probably, but they're more likely to deal with a power struggle during a presentation than maybe even I am. And so I appreciate what you just said was, you basically said, my experience is not the universal experience. And I think that right there, if we could all figure that out, that would open up so many doors for more dialogue.

Well, and you got me there. So, thank you. I mean, obviously, when I work with organizations, we have these kinds of conversations. But, and I think that's what's so wonderful about having this conversation with you today is those of us who work in this field still are constantly, it's a discovery. It's an ongoing discovery because of what you said, 76% of our thoughts are not thought out. They're reaction. They're thought out by the subconscious.

Yeah.

But I didn't consciously make that choice completely. And that's so powerful.

There's nothing wrong with being wrong, right? Probably 10 workshops into me doing this, I shared this example of a guy I play basketball with. His name is Matt. We're good friends. When we first started playing basketball, he was super aggressive towards me. And I kept thinking, we're gonna get into a fight. I mean, it's just gonna happen. To the point I took actually a couple weeks off of playing basketball. We were playing one day and we were both waiting to get on and we just started rapping, talking about whatever, whatever. He began to share with me how difficult it was for him when he moved into the country because he moved as a teenager from Poland. Eastern European countries, if you looked at the passive-aggressive continuum, they are far more assertive and aggressive than the United States. At that point, I started to make some connections and say, well, That makes a lot of sense. And he started sharing, you know, how difficult it was to adjust and for his brother to adjust. And so I shared, you know, in my class, you know, that I had to go back and look at the source and to say, you know, maybe, you know, dealing with coming from this, even as he explained it to me, that that was part of why we're going at it. And someone says, well, do you think you're being biased? And I, you know, my response immediately was like, well, no. I mean, I'm actually going off the information He's telling me. And then later I thought about it and I thought, well, wait a second, I know tons of Polish people who aren't like that, right? I mean, as the very person giving the workshop, I have this huge blind spot. And fortunately, someone was able to point it out to me. And even though initially I dismissed it, I had to come back and say, but wait. And that realization of we're going to make mistakes, And making mistakes does not make us bad people.

No. When we recognize them, it gives us the greatest opportunity for growth. Some of the most painful feedback I've had in 27 years of speaking has been the feedback that revolutionized how I approached a situation going forward.

Great point. Great, great point.

And so, it's a matter of even at the time, if you're defensive about it, maybe you walk away and 5 minutes later, you're like, why is this bothering me so much? Because it's true. There's something there, and that's painful to admit. I've been doing it wrong, you know? So, and we all do it in relationships. The person closest to you, we shut off the quickest in an argument, right? So, if you're married and your spouse says something to you, you're like, no, but you don't understand. But if your friend who over here says, hey, did you recognize this? You're like, oh my gosh, that's brilliant. I didn't think of that. And your spouse is going, What? I've said that before. But, but we're shutting down certain sources because— versus other sources, and it's opening to all of them going, you're probably saying that to help me. That's the part we forget. You're probably talking to me right now to help me.

I would actually say even a greater revelation, or people would really relate to that, would be parents of teens, right? Because I have 2 teenage boys. The number of times I've told them something And then a friend said the exact same thing. I'm like, seriously, now you're gonna listen? But, you know, my wife said something fascinating to me about, I don't know, 6 months into our marriage. We've been married, it'll be 24 years in November. So we were, you know, having just a basic disagreement. We weren't yelling or arguing, but it was just we were getting on each other's nerves. And she just turned and looked at me. She goes, I'm not trying to upset you. And when she said it, it was like, yeah, I know, I know. But I needed to hear that because it almost felt like— no, it's not that it felt like— I was putting an intention behind her behaviors. And I think what you just said is what we often do is we put an intention behind the feedback, and that The intention is often based on our biases, and what it does is it lets us off the hook. Well, that feedback is no good because they have a different agenda, versus let me separate the two and just listen to the feedback and see if there's any truth to it. That may save us from having to hear it from another source.

Yeah, I do an exercise with corporate audiences where I'll say, hey, remember when you first moved in with someone? And they're like, oh yeah, remember the first few days? How long before they annoyed you? How long before they did some habit you had never seen until you lived together before they annoyed you? And people start laughing, be like, geez, 30 seconds, you know?

Right, right.

Were they trying to annoy you? No. What were they doing? Being themselves. That's what was annoying me. Okay. So that was never their intention to annoy you. And it's the same thing with triggers that can cause— it doesn't mean they're always intentional. Some are, And that's a whole nother discussion, but a lot are not. So I think that's so brilliant you brought that up. So thank you for sharing that. There's 2 books you really recommend, Tony, and they are Thinking Fast and Slow and The Power of Habit. Why those 2 books?

Thinking Fast and Slow is like the scientific Bible of unconscious bias. And I say that because when Daniel Kahneman wrote it, he, this is what he, all of his work had been based off this and he actually won a Nobel Prize for it. The science behind it is what's so important. I've actually given this presentation and had board members from the National Science Foundation come up, validate everything I've said, and say they want to collaborate with me. And my number one source of information came from that book. It is almost a must-read if you want to understand the true science behind why we think the way we do and to realize it's not just about people. But it affects how we make decisions about data, about other, you know, just almost everything. We're really not objective. The Power of Habit, one of the things I'm really diving into is how do we really reprogram our biases? Because I think that's what we want to do. Many of the solutions we often give are ways to mitigate the effect of bias. But how do we reprogram our mind? And The Power of Habit seems to have some amazing keys of how do you change habitual behaviors. And it really comes down to how do you change your thinking. And so I'm still diving into that, but it seems to hold keys that no one has taken and applied to concepts like unconscious bias. as methodologies for really making lasting change. So that's why I say those 2 books.

Well, thank you for sharing those. Tony, last question I have is, I can hear some people probably out there thinking, how do I do this without constantly feeling the old cliché, I'm walking on eggshells with everything I say?

Yeah. Okay. So here's the reality. And I'll say this, not as an unconscious bias speaker or teacher. I will say this simply as a Black man in America. Most people of color, most women, most people of other ethnicities, of other religions, actually want to have the conversations. In all honesty, the challenge is we're often able to separate action from intention because it's the world we live in. It's really often the fear coming from the majority of not wanting to have the conversation. And especially because they're fed narratives. You know, if you're fed a narrative that, for example, you take what your your topic right? If you're constantly fed the narrative, yeah, but you know you don't want to be falsely accused by women of of raping. Well, is that a valid fear? No, but it's a fear that has to be addressed, right? But the truth is, I believe a lot of what your topic. speaking of is exactly what people want. So it's— we have this fear of walking on eggshells. It's not a valid fear. And the problem is, if we knew more people who weren't like us, we would realize these conversations are actually easier than we imagine. And I'll use this as my example. I've come to realize if I can't joke with you about race, you're not safe.

That's brilliant.

We'll just throw out— I mean, we'll be in somewhere and I'll just throw out a joke. And, you know, and I've had people who I really respect to go— just their reaction made me go, man, if we can't have this joke— and I'm joking about my own race, let me make that clear. So this is very self-deprecating. If it's that uncomfortable for you, then there's conversations we'll never have.

And there's a clarifier there that you're— you are joking about your own race. That's— would you say that's different than if a white man is cracking jokes about Black individuals?

Here's the difference, I would say. If I initiate it and I start a joke and then you come back with me, that's cool. And if we built a relationship, because, you know, so part of this whole thing, it surrounds itself around— I'm sorry, part of this whole thing is affected by relationship, Context, intent, and impact, right? Relationship, content, intent, and impact. If we have a relationship that I know you're safe and you start joking, it's a joke, dude. So if you played basketball with me and my friends who are of every nationality and age you can imagine, if you recorded it, you would say There is so much discrimination going on. I mean, it's really bad. But in context, we're all friends, we're all safe. And what made it funny is we all know it's not true. It's the fear that maybe you don't believe this is not true that makes it unsafe.

I think that's why it's an important discussion for— as our listeners are thinking, that the safety is built in the relationship. I think that's such an important, beautiful thing you said there. To— for someone to walk away and go, oh, I can say whatever I want because I feel safe. That's right. That's not a relationship. That's the— you're talking about you. Right. So that's the difference there. Tony, this has been amazing. Thank you for such an incredible conversation.

Thanks so much for having me. Hopefully we'll continue this one day.

I would love to keep it. We'll definitely would love to have you back in the future. And for everybody listening, it's tonychapman.com. We'll have all of the links to Tony. On the show notes, as always.

Thanks, everybody, for listening. Mike, thanks for having me on.

Oh, it's been fantastic. Before I answer this week's Question of the Week, I'd love to ask you a question. Would you please subscribe to this podcast, The Respect Podcast with Mike Domitrz? By subscribing, you can make a huge impact. Now, you might be wondering, Mike, how does my subscribing to your podcast make a huge impact? Well, here's how. For every person that subscribes, it raises the rankings of the show in the search engines. So for people who care about respect like yourself, when they're doing a search for podcasts, they're more likely to find this show, thus providing an awesome opportunity for us to spread more respect around this world. And all you do is hit subscribe under your podcast. Plus, the second benefit is by subscribing, you automatically get every episode right into your phone or whatever device you are listening to the podcast on. It happens automatically. So subscribing also makes your life easier. Now let's get into this week's question of the week. Oh, and by the way, you can always ask your questions of the week by joining us on Facebook in our discussion group. It's called the Respect Podcast Discussion Group. Go there on Facebook and ask whatever questions you would like me to answer and/or address in this segment of the show. And then listen to each episode to find out when your question is included. The question of the week is, Mike, how do I get my friend to change their beliefs? Well, we have to stop by understanding you're not going to change their beliefs. You have to help open them to a possibility of them choosing to change their beliefs. And that's the key. We all want to stop thinking about how to change others and instead how to engage others. How do I ask some questions that get them thinking and not with an agenda to change them? But to have a genuine conversation. That's the key. Let's engage instead of trying to change. We'd love to hear your questions, your thoughts, and your ideas. And the best place to leave those with us is on our Facebook page at facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast. Of course, you can always contact us on our website at mutuallyamazingpodcast.com. Remember to subscribe to this show so you automatically get it every And if you could take one moment to leave a review, that really helps other people find the show, which we are greatly appreciative of. So thank you so much for joining us. May you make today and every day a life full of mutually amazing relationships.

Bye.