53: Melanie Deziel on Melanie Deziel on Being a Brand Storyteller

Welcome to the Respect Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz, from mikespeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions, and the U.S. military create a culture of respect. And respect is exactly what we discuss on this show. So, let's get started. And this week, our guest is Melanie Dezoll. We're gonna let you know about Melanie right now. She's the founder of StoryFuel and a brand storytelling consultant and speaker who travels the world teaching marketers and publishers how to tell better brand stories. Melanie, thank you very much for joining us.

Thanks for having me.

So for people listening, what is a brand storyteller and how does one become one?

Yeah, it's a really good question. And I think it's especially important because we all sort of make up our own words and our job titles get, you know, nice and fancy as we go. But, um, to me, you know, I, my background is as a journalist. So really what I think that I'm doing is taking the things that I learned as a journalist, how to find sources, how to just, you know, determine what stories are really worth telling, what does your audience want to hear about, and teaching marketers how to put those same principles into practice for their brand. So how do I make sure that I'm telling my customers the information they want to hear? How do I make sure that when I'm creating content and sharing information with my audience, with my customers and potential customers, that it's credible, that it's trustworthy, that it's actually interesting, and that, you know, they actually care about the things we're saying? It's not just us putting out press releases. So it's really kind of translating between those 2 worlds of journalism and marketing to hopefully Find a happy medium where we end up with better brand stories.

How do you avoid the trap of selling what people will buy over congruency of authenticity of somebody really respecting what they really are versus what they're trying to sell?

That's a good question. I think there's always these ethical concerns and, you know, whenever you're, whether you're doing regular marketing or content marketing or maybe even just moving through your life as a person, I think there are always these battles between, what's gonna get me the results that I want and what's gonna help me sleep at night. And I think there is oftentimes kind of a happy medium. One of the things that I think is most important whenever you have one of these challenges or these debates, these questions, is to really take a step back and ask yourself what the ultimate goal is, both short-term and long-term. Because I find that most often when we're making those decisions where we're putting authenticity to the wayside or we're forgetting to be transparent or we're kind of giving in to our base needs of what feels good in the moment, It's because we're thinking about a short-term gain and we've lost sight of that long-term goal, whether that's to build a brand, build a company, attract new customers. Oftentimes those things we're doing in the short term that are deceptive or just kind of icky in general are generally because you've lost— you've really lost sight of what your overall mission is, your why, your long-term goal.

How does someone get a vibe or watch out for being icky?

I think it's a really tough call, right? Like, what counts as icky? I think we all have our own standards. For me, I know that one of the things I look out for is, am I going to be proud of this? Is this something that I'll be proud to admit? Oftentimes, we do a lot of work that's sort of neutral pride, right? Where it's just like, I'm not particularly proud of answering emails. You know, it's just a thing I have to do. But there are certain moments where if I can ask myself that question, am I going to be proud when I have to share that I did this today? Or proud when I share that this is how I handled this situation? Would I be proud to tell my mom, my grandmother, my children? This is how I handled this. And if the answer is no, it's a pretty good indication that something's not sitting right with you. So that's my gut test.

And you believe that we're all storytellers in some way. We're all brand storytellers. Can you explain what that means for somebody listening going, wait, no, I'm not. I don't sell anything. I'm living my life. Or somebody who says, I live by my faith, whatever. I'm not a brand storyteller. How do you respond to that?

You know, I think this is one of those things that, you know, sometimes does make me feel a little icky, right? Every person I think has become a brand in some way. Whether that's good or bad, we are all now as individuals kind of in the business of representing ourselves. That could be something as obvious as the way you use photos and words on social media, sort of the image you're putting together of yourself in a digital capacity. But it could also be something as small as the way you dress when you show up to work. What's the message that you're sending about yourself, about how much you care? Or when you show up for worship, the way you carry yourself in that environment. Any of those environments, you're making conscious choices about the words that you use, the way you carry yourself, and the way you treat others. And all of that gives an impression of who you are, of what's important to you, and of what your values are. So in many ways, a marketer or, you know, a brand, a company is doing the same thing. Their decisions, their choices, their intentions signal to people what it is that's important to them.

I could see some people thinking, but wait a second, a brand is consciously, as you said, Making those choices, but I'm just being me. I, I, and I think it's manipulative if I'm consciously choosing my words to get impact from others. How do you respond to that?

This question comes up a lot and I can totally understand. I think it's easy to see how if someone is being too intentional with these kinds of things, they could be being manipulative or malicious in some way. But I like to give the example that if you think about the way you are when you hang out with, whether it's your children, your friends' children, your nieces and nephews, the kind of language you use there, the way you carry yourself, Versus the way you show up to a job interview, right? Those are going to be very different. The language you use when you talk to your, your, your kids, your grandkids, and the way that you might carry yourself in a job interview, very different. Now, that being said, they're both you. It's both true to you. It's just you recognizing that in some contexts, this is the best way for me to show up, to, to be, to connect best with others, to show them that, that I enjoy their company and I respect their time. That's different when you're on the ground playing games, drawing with chalk with your grandkids versus when you might be showing up to a job interview and meeting someone for the first time. I think we all have those moments in our lives, whether it's who you are at the gym and who you are at the pub with your friends, who you are when you're catching up with old friends from high school and maybe different language and things come flying back and the memories you have. It's all part of who we are. So long as it's true to you, It's okay for you to recognize that your behavior, your language, and the way you dress should change sometimes depending on the context. And that's something you can be aware of. You know, it's something you can do to show more respect for the others that you're engaging with. I think if your kids, your grandkids, your nieces and nephews, you know, if you showed up in a suit with a briefcase and shook all their hands, they probably wouldn't want to play with you anymore.

Right. Unless you're Alex from, uh, what was the old TV show in the '80s? Uh, he would show up every day that way. I'm just spacing out right now. Family Ties, I think it was. Uh, but there were Alex Keaton. There we go. The person listening now, many people get that and they realize that, look, I am a brand no matter what I do. If I'm a doctor, I'm a brand. If I'm a teacher, I'm a brand. There's an image that those I lead, that those I serve have of me. Uh, speakers, trainers, people who do what I do, you're up in front of a room and they see an image and that therefore it's a brand. So how do people figure out what content to create or what to create that content about? That is in alignment with their brand? How do they figure that out with also not being too consumed that they have to do, write about everything, respond to everything?

Yeah, of course. Yeah. If you are in a position where you have some sort of audience or you have, you know, some sort of professional task to create content to, to consciously help with this impression, this brand that you have, the easiest question to ask yourself is, how do I want to be thought of? How do I wanna be known? Right? So if we ask ourselves that and you say, well, For me, as someone who tries to teach, my primary mission is education. So I want to be thought of as informative. I want to be thought of as helpful. And because it works for what I do, I'd like to be thought of as creative too. Those are things, right? Helpful, informative, and creative. So for me, I then ask myself, how do I create content that gives that impression to others? How do I create content that informs? How do I create content that is helpful? How can I create content that shows my creativity and teaches creativity to others? So if you can find that root, how is it that I want to be known? What's the impression I want to give others? And then ask what content would help me do that, right? So for you, the word maybe that you want to be known as funny. So maybe you're a comedian or you talk about humor as a speaker or a coach. Then maybe you want to create content that's humorous. And that might be funny sketches that you put on YouTube or just clever puns like my friend Drew Tarvin does on Twitter because he talks about humor at work. So you can see what format it is that allows you to deliver the thing you want to be known for. So I think that really is that core. What are the words that I want to be known as? And then how do I create content that delivers that?

Or you could just be a source of content, right? Because for instance, I have a nephew in my life. He's an adult. And you, if you want to find something funny to laugh about, just go to his Facebook feed because he's going to share things from all over, different perspectives, and something's typically going to line up with you. Now, some could be offensive because he does a lot, but he just shares humorous and insightful stuff throughout the day. So I think a lot of people know that when you think of him, when I think of Kenny, that's the brand I think of. That's the, and that, that's awesome. But he's a, he's a sourcing. He doesn't have to create in that case.

It's true. Yeah. You can absolutely be a curator too. You know, it doesn't have to be just your content. Uh, there's a lot of data actually, if you look into the psychology of social sharing, why people share things on social media to begin with. And, and this same thing applies with the stories we tell around the dinner table or when we catch up with friends over coffee and drinks, right? The reason we share information. Many times it's tied to the impression that it gives. I'm not telling a joke because it's fun for me. I'm telling a joke because I think you're going to enjoy it and I want to create that experience for us together. And my hope is that if I tell this joke and you enjoy it, that you'll think I'm funny, right? So if you think about that same approach to the content that you share, whether it's in person or whether it's online and, you know, through your blog, through your social channels, you can be curating content that gives that impression to others too, even if it's not your own content that you created. The only caveat being, of course, you want to make sure you're giving credit to where it actually comes from, or linking to the original source and not claiming it as your own. Because I think that again, that, that's where we fall into the icky, icky territory again.

Ah, yes. I got in this conversation with someone I know and somebody I really respect in my area. And he, he said, when he's on a— he had said once on a stage, look, if, if you're saying, sharing what somebody else said, you don't need to quote it because it's probably been said before. And I went, whoa, whoa, hold the horses there. Because first of all, you wouldn't have said it. If you didn't hear it from that first source.

That's true.

So you wouldn't have it to share. Second of all, if people in that room know the original source and you're saying it, not quoting, they think you're stealing. Or you're not, you're not aware of your source and they let you lack the knowledge you should have to be talking about it. So you lose credibility. And worst case, they think you're stealing, which is going to hurt everything.

Yeah, and it's one of those things, that's a particular area that I'm a stickler for because like I said, I came from journalism and we quote everyone, right? Everything is in quotation marks. You always repeat what others say and you have to find someone who says those things. You can't just make it up yourself. And so I'm all about finding sources and quoting those sources. So that's something, giving credit where those sources are due is absolutely important to me. And like you said, it actually makes you look informed and well-connected and like someone who knows what's going on, who can refer them to other resources. So I don't think you can ever—

Absolutely. And you just referred to it again, this journalist approach. So what does that mean to take a journalist approach to content marketing?

You know, this is one of those things I know that people have different schools of thought here, and I always like to be clear that I don't ever mean to, to play down the important work that journalists do by any stretch. I don't think there should be any sort of mixing between the important and objective work that journalists do and then the brand work that those of us on the marketing side do. I think those things are very separate. But I do think that there are a lot of things we could learn from one another that could help us both be better at what we do. One of the things that I talk about in taking what works in journalism and applying it to content marketing is for many brands and marketers who are creating content, whether it's a press release or a blog on a company website, that content is not usually very exciting. The average person, our listeners here, you don't wake up and say, man, I can't wait to read a press release from a brand today. We don't typically look forward to that kind of stuff because we know that it's not going to be really relevant for us. One of the things I think marketers can really learn from journalists is that eye. How do you know what's going to actually be interesting to my audience? Not interesting to me as the creator of that content, as a journalist or a brand marketer, but what does my audience actually want to know? What do they need to hear about? What are they curious about? What value can I bring them? Because a journalist must create their content with that sort of audience-centric approach. They have to ask, you know, what's happening in our community? What does our reader need to know about? What does our viewer want to hear more information about? And that guides their content creation. So I think that same mindset is just one example of something that you can take from the world of journalism, and if you apply it to your work as a brand marketer, you're going to find that the stuff you're creating is not getting ignored as often or deleted or unsubscribed from or whatever it might be, because if you're focused on what your audience actually wants to hear, you're taking that sort of journalist audience-centric approach, then the content you're creating will be more relevant for your audience and hopefully be enjoyed more.

Yeah, if someone's not a speaker, I think you could— or an author or a content sharer— I think a way to pause and say how this applies to you is we all know that person that when they start talking about something, it turns into a rambling and there's not even a pause of breath, and you're stuck for 10 to 20 minutes on a conversation. And we can all fall into it, so it's not just that one person. There's some people that's just always how they communicate, but we can all fall into it. I think to pause and think Well, what are things I care about that when I am talking to my kids or my friends or my colleagues, my— that I could engage from in a way they'd better listen. They'd better, they'd better really jump into this conversation more easily, more comfortably. So how could I take a journalist approach to talking to other parents about what we could do better as parents, just as a fellow parent, not as somebody with an agenda?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think on some level we do, like you said, we do this in our everyday life. You know, if you say you were to go on a vacation and when different people in your life asked you how your vacation was, you would probably highlight different parts of that trip based on what you know they love. You know, Mike, you went on vacation and you know that I'm a big foodie. So when I ask you how your vacation was, you're going to say, oh, we had the best dinner on the 3rd night. You've got to check out this restaurant because you know that's the part that's going to most resonate with me. But, you know, when another friend of yours who happens to be more of a photographer, you know, asks how your trip was, you say, you've got to see these photos we took from the second day. Oh, the sunset was beautiful, right? We know in our mind that we should try to find the information. That's how we build relationships. It's how we grow in closeness, is by acknowledging the things that are important to others and growing in that bond together. So if we can do the same thing with the stories we tell, the blogs we create, the posts we put out on social media, We're sort of being intentional about building those relationships by acknowledging what the other party needs and not being that guy, like you said, who just only talks about themselves and rambles on.

Yeah, I just had this happen. And it feels so connected when somebody does this. So a good friend of mine, for New Year's Eve, we have a group get-together, and they, they made a calendar of sunsets. And the reason they've been friends of mine for a while is they know I post sunset pictures all the time. So they not only Posted sunsets, made this calendar of sunsets. They also got from my wife some of my photos, my personal photos of sunsets to include. And you're like, that's a great example of knowing the person. In this case, I'm a singular audience, but that could be 1,000 people. That could be one person. But I thought it was a brilliant example of that.

Yeah, it's sort of like gift giving too, right? The most special gifts are the one where someone knows something about you that it's not, well, I got tube socks for everyone on my list this year. And you're like, well, I'm not special. I didn't want tube socks, but that kind of thing. Having that kind of giving of creating something that is mindful of your preferences and your hobbies and the things that you like, it makes you feel heard. It makes you feel appreciated and it makes you feel closer because you know that you're being listened to and appreciated. So the same thing, if the content we're creating, if the stories we tell, you know, the blogs we write, the videos we put out, if those are gifts to our audience, right? If we're putting those things out to give to our audience, then it should be gifts that they want.

Yes. What are additional lessons you've learned as a journalist that can help?

I think one of them is something we already touched on about sources. And it's funny you brought that up because again, the sourcing is so important. And I say that that's one of the biggest challenges I think is most of us, we approach advertising with skepticism as we should, right? We know that the goal of a commercial or a blog from a brand or a press release is to sell us on something. So as consumers, we're naturally skeptical. So one of the easiest ways for brands and marketers, and we can apply this in our own lives too, to increase the credibility and the trustworthiness of the stories we tell is to include outside sources. And that's something. In the world of journalism, you know, the best journalists know that the more sources you have, the more sound your story is, and that you want to make sure you're choosing reputable sources. You know, you can't just quote any old person that no one knows. You want to try to find experts, whether those are doctors or researchers or professors, you know, people who have experience who can speak with authority on those topics. So I always encourage brand marketers to do the same thing. Instead of just telling me why your product is so great or why it's the best choice or how much it's going to help, show me, demonstrate it, and get other qualified experts to, to back up your case.

I love that. And how do you feel, uh, or I shouldn't say how do you feel, you had, you've shared with me previous to the show that there's an experience or a lesson you had regards to content and you learned it the hard way and that we could benefit from that. So what was that lesson?

Man, I've learned so many content lessons the hard way. Um, I think one of the, the easiest ones that I've learned, uh, and, and many times the hard way is that I need to speak up Yeah. For my gut. I think many times as a consultant, I'm in a position where I'm trying to help others with content. Sometimes you just feel something in your gut and you know that it's either right or it's not right. Maybe you can't cite the data, and so you might tell yourself, I probably shouldn't say anything. I don't know if that's true. I don't know if that's the best thing to do. It's just I kind of have a hunch or I have a feeling, but maybe I shouldn't say anything. I've not done that and I've seen the results that made me wish that I had had the guts to say something sooner. So just some examples of that. I worked with a brand one time and I never want to call out a brand because I think everything we're doing in marketing is learning and there's no harm in learning the hard way as long as you learn the lesson. But I had been working with a brand that was very, very insistent that we should use only sources that were from their company. We should only talk to their engineers and their experts and we should only use those experts in our content. And I remember thinking, this just doesn't sit right with me. It feels like we're sort of talking to ourselves here. I feel like this would benefit from some outside sources, but I didn't say anything because I didn't want to offend them and I couldn't propose a different expert, right? I didn't feel like I was bringing— I felt I was surfacing a problem and not a solution. So because I couldn't suggest an alternative expert, I decided not to say anything. And ultimately, when we put that piece of content out into the world, some of the feedback we got was that, well, of course you say that, of course you believe that. It's only your team is saying this thing. How do I know you're telling the truth? I remember at that moment thinking, if I had only spoken up, maybe we could have avoided this problem before it happened. Now, I've tried in more recent years, I think as I've grown in my confidence and as I've learned enough of those lessons the hard way to speak up even if I can't provide an exact solution or provide a data point to say why, to say, My gut and my experience tells me that this may not be the right choice. Can we work together to find a solution that might help, you know, overcome that?

Absolutely. And I, and I love that because I think what's important there is what you said, having the confidence. 'Cause I think what we don't realize is if we don't say it, we lose all credibility. Well, I shouldn't say we lose all credibility. We lose the opportunity that when the problem, let's say they ignore us, they don't agree with us. Mm-hmm. And when the problem shows, they're like, ah, they did know what they were talking about. But if we don't say it, We're not even in the thought process.

Yeah, I always say that like, I told you so is not a great thing. You don't really wanna hear that because that means the mistake still happened. But it's way worse than why didn't you tell me? Because that feels neglectful to me. And so I feel, I do feel more so now that I have a responsibility to be the one who makes that vulnerable call, who kinda goes out on a limb and says, I'm not sure if this is exactly right, or I've gotta give some tough love. I don't think this is gonna cut it. Because I would just feel, I would feel like I hadn't done my job Uh, if I, if I allowed it to go through and didn't speak up.

And Melanie, you're a speaker, and so these same topics all apply to the stage. And as a speaker, we share stories. What's a story or a person you can think of in your life, or a journey, a moment in your life where you recognize— it could be as a young child— like, I failed to show respect, I learned this consequence, and I've taken that with me for life? Can you think of one of those moments in life?

Yeah, it's funny and embarrassing. So hopefully this will be enjoyable for everyone else, speaking of being vulnerable, right? So one of the things, as I've shared, I'm a writer and a storyteller at heart. One of the things I used to really love doing as a kid is I would write little— I call them books. I would write little books. So really, I just folded some sheets of paper in half and I would doodle out dramatic retellings of things that had happened, my day or what happened in gym class or whatever else. I remember— I can't even quite remember what I had done wrong, but I had broken some rule and I felt that I had been punished unjustly, as you often do when you're a small child. I did a dramatic— I wrote a book about it. I wrote a whole story about how my punishment was unfair. I would say that my renderings of my parents were less than flattering. The doodles that I came up with were less than flattering.

Right.

My parents were not pleased with how they were represented in this story and more punishments followed suit. So I learned that you have to be very careful when you're speaking of others and that the way that we feel in a particular situation may not always reflect the reality of the situation. And sometimes it's helpful to take a step back from those feelings before you say something hurtful about someone else.

Absolutely. That's a great lesson. Is there somebody in your life who was a champion for respect?

Oh goodness, there's a lot of people in my life. I think my husband, I would say, is a champion for making sure that I get respect, which I think is a really wonderful gift you can give to others. He is really good about making sure that I'm standing up for myself and that he's equipping me and helping me stand up for myself when I might not feel I have the confidence or I have the voice to be able to do it. So I think that's, you know, not only is he big about respect for others and respect in general, but also that he's giving that gift to me to say, hey, I think you can stand more firm here. I think you have more worth here. I think you can make sure that you're getting the respect you deserve in this situation and helping me have the confidence to do that is— I think that's such a wonderful thing to be able to give to others.

Absolutely, that is a gift. So thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. And in your work, there's a couple books that you really like. Now, one of them is an author and a person we've had on the show, uh, and so we're gonna— Phil Jones. So our listeners have heard his book Exactly What to Say, heard all about it, brilliant, everything. The other one though you have here is Everybody Writes by Ann Handley. What about that book do you love?

What I love about that book is it feels to me like the spirit of that book. First of all, I don't know if your listeners have the pleasure of knowing or being familiar with Ann Handley, but please go and find her, follow her. She's a wonderful human. But she's also a real— she's very empowering in the book that she writes. So, as a writer, I say that writing is my first content language. It's very easy for me to express myself in writing, but I know that that's not true for others. And so, what I love about this book is it helps you read this book and you really feel like I am a writer. I can be a writer. This is not as foreign or scary or exclusive as I may have thought, and that I write every day, whether it's a text message or an email or a birthday card. And so, it really makes it approachable. And I think that, again, I know I used this phrase before, but that is such a wonderful gift to give to someone, the belief that they can do something. And so, that's what I really love about that book. I always recommend it for anyone who gives me any hint of like, I'm not a creative type, or, I can't do that. I'm like, you need Everybody Writes by Ann Henley.

Awesome. Thank you for that. Now, for everyone listening, you can find Melanie at storyfuel.co. There's no M there. .co. So storyfuel.co. And also in all of our show notes, we'll have the links to all of your, your social media, everything. Melanie, I want to thank you so much for joining us today.

Yeah, thanks for having me and letting me share my story.

Absolutely. For our listeners, you know what's coming up next. That is the question of the week. Before I answer this week's question of the week, I'd love to ask you a question. Would you please subscribe to this podcast, The Respect Podcast with Mike Domitrz? By subscribing, you can make a huge impact. Now, you might be wondering, Mike, how does my subscribing to your podcast make a huge impact? Well, here's how. For every person that subscribes, it raises the rankings of the show in the search engines. So for people who care about respect like yourself, when they're doing a search for podcasts, They're more likely to find this show, thus providing an awesome opportunity for us to spread more respect around this world. And all you do is hit subscribe under your podcast. Plus, the second benefit is by subscribing, you automatically get every episode right into your phone or whatever device you're listening to the podcast on. It happens automatically. So subscribing also makes your life easier. Now let's get into this week's question of the week. Oh, and By the way, you can always ask your questions of the week by joining us on Facebook in our discussion group. It's called the Respect Podcast Discussion Group. Go there on Facebook and ask whatever questions you would like me to answer and/or address in this segment of the show. And then listen to each episode to find out when your question is included. And this week's question is, hey Mike, what's with the name change? And no, I did not personally Change my name. What we did change is the name of our organization, the name of our corporation. For 16 years, we were the Date Safe Project, and now today we are the Center for Respect. And I am so excited about being able to share with you why we made this shift. And it was very intentional. It started back in November when the name came to me. We knew that respect is what we've always— all of our work has always been founded in. A base, a foundation of respect. So the Center for Respect, when we knew we were going to change our name, was just common sense. It was just perfect alignment. It was like the stars aligned. There was like a woohoo moment, and we were so excited about that. Now, why the name change? That was very simply put to help more organizations, associations understand fully what we do. What we found was happening was the old name, the prior name of the Date Safe Project was limiting people's ability to see how we could best serve and help them. They could mistakenly think, oh, they talk only about dating. And since they thought it was only about dating, which is not all we talk about, they get a perception that is false, that we can't be of service or help to them. Now that we're the Center for Respect, whether you're a middle school, a high school, a university, a college, a military installation, around the world or a large corporation or a small organization or association, you can stop and go, hey, we want to be aligned with a foundation of respect. Therefore, working with the Center for Respect to help us make us accomplish that, achieve that. Well, that makes sense. And that's what I'm so excited about this name change. It truly fulfills and fits everything we do when we're able to help and serve others. I hope you'll check us out at Center for Respect. Do you know what I would love? I would love to hear your answer to this week's question of the week. So would you please answer what your answer would've been if you were asked that question today on the show? All you do is go to our Facebook page. We have a special group where we have these discussions called the Respect Podcast Discussion Group. So the Respect Podcast Discussion Group, and share with us, what would your answer have been to this week's question of the week? And if take a moment, post us a new question for future episodes. What question would you like to hear me answer on an upcoming episode? That's all done at on Facebook in our special group, which is the Respect Podcast Discussion Group. Can't wait to see you there. Thank you for joining us in this episode of the Respect Podcast, exploring work, love, and life. And this episode, like every episode. is brought to you by our organization, the Center for Respect, which you can find at centerforrespect.com. And of course, you can find me, your host, Mike Domitrz, at mikespeaks.com. Thank you so much for joining us.