57: Kam Knight on How to Avoid Passivity & Prejudice

Welcome to the Mutually Amazing Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz, with the Center for Respect. The episode you're about to listen to was recorded when this show used to be called the Respect Podcast, so you might hear that mentioned during this episode. Well, let's get to the show. And welcome to this week's episode. Cam Knight is my guest and the author of several bestselling books on learning, memory, and concentration. Over the past 15 years, he has dedicated his life to uncovering the secrets of the mind and how to optimize its performance. When he's not writing, teaching, or speaking, he is globetrotting, having traveled to nearly 100 countries around the world. Cam Knight, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you, Mike. I'm glad to be here.

And you go by the name of Mindlily. Your website's mindlily.com. Can you give everyone a little background on what Mindlily is?

Yeah, so Mindlinely is just a concept that I developed of, you know, the mind blossoming. And so, to help us better understand our mind and to really go deep in really understanding what's going on and how it works and using that knowledge to improve our performance of it. So, at this— so, on my website, I have all sorts of resources of how to improve the performance of our mind in areas such as memory, concentration, speed reading, note-taking technique called Mind mapping and other resources that help people enhance the performance of their mind.

Excellent. Well, I'm so glad you're joining me here today. And you talk about, with regards to our topic of respect and the role prejudice has, and you state that the mind is built for prejudice. So what do you mean by that? And why is the mind built for prejudice?

Yeah. So our mind is designed, it's innately programmed for prejudice. And what I mean by that is that our mind does not operate in reality. It operates within the model of reality. So, in our heads, we have all these mental models that help describe the world. And the mind references those models when we are interacting with the world. So, if you can imagine you're a little kid back in the hunter-gatherer times, you know, as a little child, you're making sense of the world. So, you come across a piece of rock. You pick it up and you notice that it's hard, heavy, rough, and then you even take a bite of it and find that it's not edible. So, in that moment, your mind builds a model for rocks as an object that is hard, heavy, and inedible. So, this is useful because every time you come across a rock or a piece of rock, you don't have to go through this rigorous examination. Your mind references that model and knows exactly what it is and whether it is safe or dangerous. And so, this saves a lot of time because there are a lot of rocks in our environment, and to have to go through this every time we come across one would leave us with no time for life. Or let's look at another example. You know, one day you come across a bush with a tiny, round, red berry. You eat the berry and get sick. So, the mind builds a model that anything that is tiny, round, and red will likely make you sick. So, when you come across those berries again, you don't have to eat them to know that it's bad for you. So, in this case, our models protect us. And so, the mind builds models for just about everything. You know, it has models for chairs. Chairs have 4— or models for tables. Tables have 4 legs, a flat surface, and are used to place items. This way, you can come across tables of various sizes, shapes, and lengths, But always know it's a table. And again, in our heads we have models for chairs and houses and cars and toys. Above all, it makes models of people, you know, whether they are safe, dangerous, helpful, or not. And more importantly, it has models of different types of people. We might encounter a person with a particular beard or a particular sex or a particular skin tone. And without realizing, based on that interaction, the mind will build a model of people with beards, sex, or a certain skin tone. And so, we don't react to people based on reality but on our models. So, if we have a bad encounter with a person with a beard, then anytime we meet someone else with a beard, we're going to have an emotional charge against that person. Without conscious awareness, our mind is using our model as a reference of what this person is like.

And we don't even need, we don't even need to meet that person, right? In theory, if I see imagery, video, pictures of that certain demographic, that certain look, that are negative, I can create that model without even having met such a person.

Exactly. Yeah. So, you don't even have to meet or interact. You can just be told about such a person. So, not even see a person, but if somebody just tells you about such a person, you will develop a model almost instantly. And it's all unconscious. We're not aware of it. It just kind of happens. And so, we just have a model of that person. And so, this is how, in a way, prejudice is formed. I mean, it's an innate quality. It's built into us. And in many ways, it saves us time. And the ultimate goal is to protect us. So it's not going anywhere anytime soon.

So is there a difference between bias and prejudice?

Are you referring to bias in terms of— I had listened to one of your podcasts with Tony, and he talked about unconscious bias.

Right, he did talk about unconscious bias. Some people would also, you know, when they refer to race or culture, they'll say racial bias or cultural bias. Is there a difference in that and prejudice?

You know, in my opinion, I think they're quite the same. It's just, you know, in both instances, what we're doing is we're looking at the reality not for the way it is, but using our past experiences or past judgments to make inferences about reality.

Now, the danger though is if we consciously take those prejudices, correct, and act on them versus— or is it equally dangerous if we're subconsciously doing it, maybe even more dangerous because we're not aware?

I think it's dangerous in both instances because in both instances, we're not operating with reality. We're just operating within our models of reality or within our biases of reality. And so, it kind of— I would say it would depend on the circumstances. Sometimes it's going to be more dangerous when we're unconscious of it and sometimes it's going to be dangerous when we are aware and conscious of it.

Well, and I think the, the difference here is that it leads you from a place of fear. Like, we talk about leading from a place of compassion, dignity, empathy, mutuality, but this runs from fear. This is the model being created to protect us, and protection tends to run from a place of fear.

Yeah, exactly. It's all about protection. And as you had said, you know, when we're dealing with protection, there's just so much fear behind it.

What's interesting about this is this, you know, on the show here we talk about all facets of respect, love, life, and work. This shows up everywhere.

Yeah, I mean, anytime we are, you know, like I had mentioned, we build models of not just people but of objects and of circumstances. We actually have a model of our reality too. We have a model of what we think, how the world works, and our place in it, and whether it's safe or dangerous. And if we're not operating within the reality of a situation, then it can really impact our lives in many ways.

Yeah, I think a great example is it leads to paranoia. Like parents— when you're a parent, you can quickly operate out of fear because of something you've been told it could be dangerous to your child in society or culture. And suddenly the parents are freaking out like, oh no, are my kids involved with that? Or are their friends involved with that? And really it's, it's a bias they have. It's a prejudice they have based on a little bit of information that kicked up a huge fear.

Exactly. Exactly.

So how do we overcome that? Since this is innately in us, built to protect us, how do we overcome this prejudice for all things, for both people, things, and situations?

The best way to do that is to expand our mental models. It's to actually go out and test our models to see if they are accurate and to what degree. And so, I'll give you a couple of examples. You know, for a long time, I had a particular model of elderly women. And most people in this podcast can't see me, but, you know, I'm a tall, dark male. And I assumed because I was a tall, dark male that they would be scared of me, would not want to talk to me, or would not be interesting in conversation. And so, one day, I decided to test this model and I started conversing with them. At bus stops or even on the bus. And, to my surprise, 70% of them were very open, very friendly, and engaged to talk. And, what I realized was that many of them didn't have anyone to talk to in their life, and they were so happy that I did. And, some even thanked me for talking with them. And so, that really broke my model of elderly women, because I had this assumption that, you know, there was this— Unsaid thing that they didn't want me to approach them and they didn't want me to talk to them and they would not be interested. But because I went out and tested it, you know, it, it broke that model and formed a different one, which is really helpful.

I want to pause on that because I think it's a great example that you're sharing about going out and whatever prejudice you have, learning about individuals by interacting. Now I could see people having 2 reactions to that. One, Is if somebody was trying to come from a place of concern of, are you intentionally using people to prove a model of yourself versus genuine engagement? But on a very different viewpoint, I could see people saying, but what if I don't have availability access to the demographic that I have a prejudice on? Like, literally, there's no one in my area who fits that demographic. Because there are some people that's true of based on where they live.

Yeah, so that does pose a challenge because if you don't have the ability to interact with that person, then it does make it difficult. And to be honest, Mike, you know, you really have to talk to another person, another human being one-on-one for these models to change because you and I can, you know, on this podcast talk about this and I can share my experiences, but unless the person goes out and does it themselves, then their unconscious doesn't have firsthand experience to see that how inaccurate their model is for it to be changed or to be broken. So, there is almost a limitation in that respect. But, at the same time, for people who are not in such isolated environments, this doesn't mean that you go into a really bad neighborhood and talk to people just to break your model. I mean, for many of us, we have opportunities Whether it's at a coffee shop or waiting in line or at a restaurant, or even when we're taking Uber or Lyft, where we have opportunities to expand our models of people of different origins, different backgrounds, and just in general.

Well, and I think what's powerful for people to realize is when you— when we say that, when we say, hey, engage people you wouldn't normally engage, if somebody goes, well, am I using them? Well, wait, you're not using the person you always engage. You're engaging with them because it's human behavior to say hi and to be kind and to be passionate. What you're doing is stopping yourself from no longer— from the barrier you had from engaging with these other people. You're just simply taking the barrier down and saying, I'm going to engage that person too, in addition to this person I was already engaging. Is that, is that a correct understanding?

Yes, that's completely correct. Because, you know, I'll be honest, when I was initially talking to the elderly, I was doing it as a way to break my model. But once I started engaging with them, even in those particular interactions, not what— not the interactions that happened afterwards, but in those specific interactions, I was able to have real conversations and real, you know, connection and exchanges to the point where they even said, thank you for, you know, talking with me. Thank you for taking the time to interact with me. So, I mean, yes, in a way. One person can say, oh yeah, you're using that interaction for this specific end, but even in that specific interaction, it can go to a very different level very quickly. And then, like you had mentioned, it is also breaking barriers that allow you to have more authentic, honest connections and interactions with other people.

Do you think it's possible for film, movies, television to break that barrier? Like, right now, I think of The year we're recording this, one of the Oscar nominees is a movie that deals with some barriers and assumptions and prejudices and biases, and that's Green Book. And while there's, there's many books that address— I mean, many movies that address this— the movie Green Book, that's really a focal point of the movie and, and a relationship and how it overcomes prejudices. And so, can movies like Green Book help individuals Overcome prejudices they have or awaken themselves to potential prejudices?

You know, from my experience, I think movies and media has the potential to, but, you know, for every movie that is like Green Book or that was like Crash, that kind of opens our mind to a new way of looking at people.

And yeah, Crash is a great example. I'm glad you brought that up because that really looks at so many different Stories within one story.

Exactly. And the problem is there's, for every movie or media of that, there's 1,000 others that's the exact opposite.

Absolutely. Oh, it's— yeah, I totally get it. Because in my, you know, when I'm working with schools and we're teaching consent and asking before you kiss someone, and people can go, oh, that— for example, everybody right now is on Michelle Obama's book Uh, Barack Obama asked her for a kiss. She says, he says, can I kiss you in the book? Mike, this is so awesome. And they're sending me pictures and it is, it's great. We love it. You know why everybody's noticing? Because they've never seen it in a book before. That's why they're noticing it. So it's the one in a million. So I totally get what you're saying there.

Yeah. So because it's just one in a million, you'll watch it and, and, you know, it can open your mind, but then the next 100 that you see that is not like that. It'll kind of drown it out and you will even forget about it.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So that's why that the personal relationship, when you have that happen individually with a human being, that stays forever is what you're saying, compared to the 1 out of 100 visual images or emotional images.

Exactly. And there's something that happens with the real human interaction where you get to see it at a whole different level. So, it's not about you seeing it, it's about your unconscious seeing it. It's your unconscious model going, wait, this doesn't fit with the model I had. And then unconsciously, that model starts to start changing. And so, you know, in an interview with— that interview with Tony you mentioned, which I really liked, which is why I'm coming back to it, you had mentioned that if you have a few friends of a particular origin or race, and if you hear something negative said about that origin or race, whether from media or another person, you're kind of in another— you're in a better position to decide whether to accept it or not. And so the thing is, we don't actually need to have friends of all these different races, but if we're in an environment where they are around, just going out and talking to such people is enough for us to open our models and to expand them in ways where we're not so limited and we're not, like, driven by such hardline prejudices.

Well, and for anyone listening, that episode is Tony Chapman. So if they're looking for episodes, uh, and what that was, they want to go back to that, that was that episode. So I appreciate you bringing that up. Now, you also talk about the fact that the mind does this to protect, and it's trying to protect us from worst-case scenarios.

Mm-hmm.

How do we avoid falling into that trap that even though we've had this positive experience over here with this individual, That the mind wants to fall back into the trap of going to fear?

The main way is to realize that the primary purpose of the mind is to protect. Above all, that is our primary goal. So it will focus on— it will focus on the other things only once it can ensure safety. And interestingly enough is that dangers are all around, you know, everywhere, and the slightest thing can end our life. So if we get hit by a car, That's it. If we take a hard fall, game over. If we catch a disease, our days are numbered. And threats can come from anywhere. So when we look at somebody like Alexander the Great, who was considered one of the most successful conquerors in history, and his greatness came in that he was able to defeat armies that were far bigger and superior to his, and he always fought in the front lines, not ordering people to go up in the front lines. And in his 12-year campaign, he never lost a battle or— He was undefeated. And so he was so strong and powerful, no one can defeat him, but he died of a bacteria so small we can't even see it. Or when we look at Julius Caesar, you know, he conquered an empire even larger than Alexander, but he was killed by his own Senate, not at home or in secrecy, but on the Senate floor. So what I'm trying to say is that threats are everywhere and anywhere, and You know, and then they can kind of just come in an instant. And so in order to— it helps to understand that in order to prepare for a threat, the mind is going to make worst-case assumptions about people, situations, and events. And often those assumptions are completely exaggerated. And so anything that is different is going to feel threatening. And it's important to understand that the assumptions the mind makes aren't as bad as they seem, and our threats aren't as threatening as it can seem that way. But if we can understand why our mind creates such— magnifies it so out of proportion, we can, you know, take a step back and be like, okay, so this isn't going to be as bad as it's making it seem like it's going to be.

Well, I find this fascinating. Is there something you believe— and I'm a big believer in mindfulness and awareness of the mind and thoughts— is there a statement you believe that can help people? just to say to themselves that when a fear is kicking in and that's showing itself and that's trying to dominate, to just go, hey, that's not realistic. That's overplaying itself in my mind right now. In other words, I can disown that fear. I don't have to own it. I can talk about it like a thing.

Yeah.

The Untethered Soul talks about that. The book, The Untethered Soul. Talk about it like a thing. Like, hey, that fear that's in me that is present right now, it's ridiculous. Is that what you're saying? To just say to myself, that's ridiculous, let it go?

To an extent. Where I'm really going with it is to— because our fears can be real at times, but more than often it's very much exaggerated. So, where I'm really going at it is that to be logical about it and to look for more evidence than the emotion itself. So, Mike, let me ask you a quick question. Have you heard about the triune brain model?

I have not.

Okay. So, in the 1950s, a scientist named Paul MacLean came out with the theory of the petri dish brain. And, what he proposed was that the brain is not this one large processing unit, it's actually made up of a collection of parts. And, what he suggested is that the brain evolved in 3 distinct stages. So, first, there was the brainstem. Or the reptilian brain, which is responsible for our heartbeat and breathing and all the other physical functions. And then on top of the brainstem evolved the limbic system, which is the emotional control center of the brain. So, that's like the mammalian brain. And then on top of that was the neocortex or the human brain, the logical thinking brain.

Well, this is fascinating because I did— because of my work on In the neuroscience, sorry, not my work, but learning the neuroscience of sexual assault survivors, this has all come up, but I didn't know the model name of which it— and the person who pioneered it. So keep going, it's fascinating.

And it gets even more fascinating because— so because our mind operates in the physical, emotional, and logical, we have 3 types of convincers. We have the logical convincer, we have the emotional convincer, and we have the physical convincer. And, to illustrate what I mean by that is— so, if I had a toy boat, Mike, how could I convince you that it could float in water? So, I could use a logical convincer and say, well, this boat is less dense than water and it displaces more weight than water. And so, things that are less dense or displace more of their weight than water will float. So, I'm using like the logic. And then I can show you by putting the boat in water, and if it floats, you can physically see it. And now the emotional convincer, it doesn't use logic or physical evidence. It uses the feeling of it. So, if I was like, Mike, this boat is so amazing. It can do all these things like float in water, and you can have hours and hours and hours of fun with it. And so what I'm doing there is I'm using your emotions to convince you without any logic or any physical evidence. And when you look at, you know, advertisements and, you know, all sorts of groups that are trying to convince us to do or be a certain way, they're kind of using emotions. You know, when people send messages of hate, they're using emotions of fear and anger. When we're being led to buy certain products were being used where they're using emotions of, you know, joy or camaraderie or whatever. Our own emotions can feel like the real thing, but it may not necessarily be. So it helps to take a step back and be logical about it or find physical evidence to validate that emotion. Does that make sense?

Yes. I guess the danger there is when it comes to human beings, you want to avoid finding physical evidence based on other human beings versus the one in front of you. Right. 'Cause you can play a tape in your mind of, I've seen that looking individual doing this awful thing, but it's not the individual in front of you. And so it's being careful of not projecting past images of different people on a new person now. Would that be fair to say?

No, that's completely accurate. And I'm glad you brought that up because I hadn't pointed that out. But yeah. So if you're having, um, if you're going out and testing your models and you're, you know, interacting with different types of people and noticing how, you know, they're quite safe and whatnot, and then you are in a situation, interaction where this sudden fear comes up or this anger comes up, you know, it helps to look at your prior experiences of, hey, did that really happen, or is it as serious as my emotions are making it seem?

Yeah, I was just talking with my trainer today. We were talking about totally different issue yet completely related. So the issue was Sexual assumptions people make based on past experiences, not current partners. So this was an example of somebody that I had met once, had met once, and they were— they felt safe with me. They were talking with me. And in this case, it happened to be somebody identified as a woman, heterosexual. And she said, you know, men, when it comes to sex, they're only in it to get what they want quickly and get out of it. Another gentleman was nearby and he went, what? He was like, what? Like, look, if I get the opportunity for that to happen with my partner, I don't want it to be over quick. I wanna love every moment of that. I want it to last. I want it to be incredible. Like what? But it was interesting. It was based on, and they were like, well, my experience. And it was based on past versus the current potential partner. And that's the exact same thing in our sexual lives. People can do this to themselves.

Yeah. I mean, we're doing it in so many different areas. It's quite amazing that how unconscious we can be unaware, um, of some of our projections and models.

Well, I think this is great for people to think, what prejudice do I have that could be creating a barrier to my interactions today? So I love this, Cam. Uh, now this is Respect Podcast. So there's a question I always love to ask when I get the opportunity, and we certainly have that today. When you look at your life, your work, your love, and your life, where has respect played a key role for your life?

I know there's a lot of talk about respecting others and being respectful. And I think in another interview you had talked about assertiveness and aggressiveness, where, you know, aggressiveness lacks respect of other people. But, you know, on the opposite end of the spectrum, there is passiveness. And passive people, they tend to place their desires below others. And so, they disregard their own— opinions, feelings, needs, and wants. And so, with passive people, they lack respect for themselves. And so, for me personally, it was about respecting myself, finding a way of finding reasons to respect myself. And only then was I able to be more respectful to others.

Was there a moment in your life or a story that triggered that? That ignited that, that helped you realize, hey, passivity is just as disrespectful to myself as being overly aggressive?

Yeah, I think it was when I realized that, um, people— that I was confusing passiveness with respect. I thought that I was being respectful to others when I was actually just being afraid to stand up for myself.

I think this is so important because I know a lot of people, we can fall into this trap of I just won't say anything. That'll be the nice thing to do. And they think nice equals respectful. And actually, nice can actually be a total sign of disrespect.

It's a complete sign of disrespect. Not only are you not respecting the other person by withholding your truth from them, but for sure you're disrespecting yourself because you're not allowing yourself to be heard, not allowing yourself to express your opinions. And, you know, this kind of comes down to fears because, you know, we'll be afraid to express our truth and then hide by saying, oh, I'm being respectful. And so it's really important to make that distinction.

Yeah, I love that. So thank you so much for sharing. Now, for everybody listening, we're gonna make sure they have both the books you recommend. Obviously, one is your own book, and then you also have one by David Darling that you recommended, and that was Equations of Eternity: Speculations on Consciousness, Meaning, and the Mathematical Rules That Orchestrate the Cosmos. That's a nice long title, so we're gonna have that In the show notes, along with your book, Concentration: Maintain Laser-Sharp Focus and Attention for Stretches of 5 Hours or More, by you, Cam Knight. Now, your website is mindlily.com. So for all of our listeners, make sure you go to mindlily.com, learn all about Cam. Cam, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you very much for having me, Mike.

Absolutely. And for our listeners, you know what's coming up next. It's question of the day. This week's question is, Mike, What are your fears insecurity-wise? Like, what are insecurities you have? And the reality is I have lots. I think we all have lots. I think that's when you really dive into self-development and really understanding and respecting who's— who is you in that core person, or getting caught in the, the you and the I and the me, that when you really learn to discover about the human existence is this is part of the natural existence to have insecurities. And it's also what allows us to also have confidence at times, because that's the other side of that. And what we want to do is steer from playing too much in the game of confidence or too much of the game of insecurities. We want to drive down the middle of the road and more of that neutral place to create this safe drive for us that can allow us to be without these fears or the arrogance driving us off the wrong path. And that's why I love us being able to be honest. I have morning affirmations that I read. And one of them is that I am fallible and perfect at the same time. In other words, being fallible, having insecurities, having weaknesses, all of this, making mistakes is part of being a being. And therefore it's perfect in and of itself. It doesn't have to be wrong. You don't have to feel guilty about it or shame about it. It's part of the human existence to have insecurities. And so yes, I definitely have them as we all can. I'd love for you to continue this conversation with me on Facebook in our discussion group at the Respect Podcast Discussion Group on Facebook. We'd love to hear your questions, your thoughts, and your ideas. And the best place to leave those with us is on our Facebook page at facebook.com/mutuallyamazingpodcast. Of course, you can always contact us on our website at mutuallyamazingpodcast.com. Remember to subscribe to this show so you automatically get it every week. And if you could take one moment to leave a review, that really helps other people find the show, which we are greatly appreciative of. So thank you so much for joining us. May you make today and every day a life full of mutually amazing relationships.