59: Thom Singer on Elevating Employee Engagement
Engagement expert Thom Singer identifies three core gaps in workplace performance: unclear goals, lack of passion for the work, and weak relationships. He argues that respect should be unconditional, not earned, and that introverts often become better networkers because they listen more than they speak.
Chapters
Welcome to the Mutually Amazing Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz, with the Center for Respect. The episode you're about to listen to was recorded when this show used to be called the Respect Podcast. So, you might hear that mentioned during this episode. Well, let's get to the show. And we're going to dive right into it this week. We have Tom Singer. I've known Tom for a long time, but for those of you who've never met Tom, he is an expert You're working with people to get them more engaged and working towards better performance. He's the author of 12 books and is a host of Cool Things Entrepreneurs Do podcast. Very cool podcast for anybody out there. If you're a podcast listener, check it out. Cool Things Entrepreneurs Do. Thank you so much, Tom, for joining me.
Hey, Mike. Thank you so much for having me.
Absolutely. So, we've known each other for a while and, and you're known for somebody who does engagement. Somebody out in the corporate world, Tom, in addition to all of that, often is an MC because he's so good at bringing people together and bringing everything together throughout an event, which is really powerful. So you help groups with what we just talked about, bringing things together. So I thought we'd dive right into talking about that gap that can happen between potential and results. And how does that occur? What are things people can do?
Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a real serious thing. So for most of my career as a speaker and an MC, I spoke about, you know, how do you get people more engaged with their network? Uh, when the economy boomed, all of a sudden nobody cared about the topic of engagement quite as much because it was like, oh, our people don't need that. If they get laid off, they'll find a job in an hour. And the comment that kept coming up of what people needed was about this gap between potential and performance. And so I've now interviewed over 500 people about what holds them back, and I've interviewed about the same number of people who claim to be totally succeeding. And I asked them, what are you doing different than what other people are doing? And it— the answers that have come back from this research has been fascinating.
And so let's dive into that. Yeah, I assume the answer is engagement.
That was one of my favorite things is that there were really 3 buckets overall that a lot of the stuff came into, and it was plans, passion, and people. And the plans was sort of your goal setting, knowing what you're trying to accomplish. I'm surprised how many people go to work every day and don't really know what they want more than that week. They don't have a year or 3-year or 5-year sort of goals or plans. And how many people don't feel it's been communicated from their company? And then, the second bucket is passion. What I've discovered is the people who are really succeeding are people who like what they do. People, when you look at them, they can put up with the BS that happens in a job or in a career if you're an entrepreneur or whatever if you really get out of bed and say, I am so fortunate. I love what I'm doing. And then, the last bucket was people, and that made me really happy because for 10 years, I'd been speaking about how do you connect better with people in a gadget-crazy world. So, yeah, it's that people portion is the largest bucket. And probably the one that excites me the most, because that's where all my successes come from.
Well, and it's a really important one. You know, here on the show, we talk about respect in regards to work, love, and life, and engagement has to do with all 3 of those areas because all of them can be heavily impacted by lack of engagement or an unhealthy understanding of engagement. So, when you think of engagement, let's talk at each of them separately. When you think of engagement in work, one, what does that mean? 2, how do you avoid the extremes, the over— the overly communicating, constantly interrupting, versus the not enough engaged?
Well, I think in a work setting, if you're gonna be engaged with people, you absolutely— I mean, I love the word respect. You have to respect that some of those people are gonna have a different, you know, a different outlook, whether it's just on the project that you're working on or whether it's life. And I think we've kind of gotten to a spot in our society where it's okay not to respect people if you disagree with them. And you see that, of course, in politics, but I see it seeping into work and to other things. People are like, well, that's, that's not what we stand for, so screw you. And it's like, well, wait a minute, we're not gonna get anything accomplished if you're discrediting the people around you. So I think from a work standpoint, one of the things you have to do to be engaging is, is that you, you know, you, you have to be respectful of the people around you. And part of that is, is listening. And some of us, myself included, Struggle with that sometimes. It's, you know, it's, it's, you're used to just jumping in and sharing your opinion. The women in my life tell me that men tend to want to be fixers and that I certainly fall into that. And so sometimes you have to just sit back and listen and let the other people be heard.
I love that. It's such an important discussion too. So I appreciate you bringing that up, that whole listening in. And what people say is it's a skill. And what, what I always like to bring forth, it's a practice. Like you have to continually work on it. It's not just a skill you gain and then you have, you have to constantly practice Listening.
What did you say? No, I'm just kidding.
Well, and because a lot of people think, well, I'll listen for my chance to talk versus listening, being fully present in the moment.
Yeah, and I always say that, you know, I always say that introverts are actually better networkers. And sometimes people look at me and go, what, what, what are you talking about? You know, because they think of networking being like the cocktail reception where the extrovert is, you know, telling the latest story over a glass of wine. But the truth is, is that introverts will listen more when they're in a conversation at a business event. Typically then, because they're listening more, they'll hear what somebody says and that gives them that ability to be a giver. It gives them the ability to help other people achieve. So I'm always telling the introverts in the crowd, don't be scared. Take back the networking because the extroverts, when the other person is talking, they're usually thinking kind of like you said, what can I say next? But the introvert is really sort of absorbing and listening to what's being said. So as an extrovert, I've learned that I have to step back and Yeah.
And you're right, the extrovert, especially those of us who speak and all, we're used to that, right? People look for us to do that. So sometimes it can be harder to realize I don't need to do that. In fact, I might grow and become a better person by not being what I'm expected to be on stage when I'm off stage. Like in speaker world, people say always be the same off stage and on stage. Well, you're in different roles off stage. Yeah. So you can be a different person off That's stage. not always accurate.
Yeah, you can't be the same onstage and offstage because offstage, other people are part of that conversation. Onstage, you've been hired to talk for an hour, so you have to be a little bit different. I mean, you should be the core of your soul, who you are as a person. I mean, we've all met people who are one way at church and they're one way at the office, they're a different way at the bar. I think you have to have that integrity and that consistency in sort of Who you are, but it's certainly not in the way you behave. And the other thing that sort of triggered in my mind when you said this is about a year and a half ago, I read an article in the Harvard Business Review by— I'm going to mess up his name. I think it's Vivek Murthy, and he was the Surgeon General under President Obama. And the article, I think it was titled The Epidemic of Loneliness, and he talked about the fact that we have more tools to connect than at any time in history, and yet people feel more invisible. They feel more lonely and it's across generational lines. People don't feel they have the connections that they want and that human beings need and I think that's one of the things we have to remember. I tell people all the time is that when you're in a crowd, put your phone down and see people. I sometimes will tweet with the hashtag #SeePeople because I think we have to get back to that part where even if it's just a smile, you don't have to talk to everybody. If you pass by somebody on the street, but— We forget that people need that. And sometimes the reason I remembered this is sometimes it's the extrovert in the room who is the life of the party, who feels very alone, who feels very lost. And we don't assume that because of the way they're behaving. And so I think that's one of the things that we have to do if we're engaging in the workplace, was your question, but really everywhere. I think we have to remember to step back and not just listen, But really kind of see the other person as a whole human being.
Well, and that goes back to your earlier point about respect, giving every human being respect versus tolerating versus putting up with, or just saying, I don't have to. And there's this— and it's one thing that I talk about and we write about, in fact, is this statement of, you have to earn my respect. No, that is one of the most unhealthy concepts that could ever exist in an organization or an institution. Because the moment I think that you have to earn my respect or I have to earn your respect, I am less than you. And I have to perform to your liking to be treated with value. That's an insane concept. So, I'm thrilled you brought that up, Tom, about this idea of, look, to be seen and to be valued, that's what respect is all about. So, I think it's so beautiful that you brought up that concept of, hey, I don't have to agree with you. You don't have to like me. We don't even have to think that our work is of the same level. Like, maybe you don't do as well work, or I don't do as well work, but to be treated with respect as a human being, that's something we should all be doing for each other. Do you see that as a struggle when people are trying to feel valued and seeing this idea, well, you have to prove yourself before I'm gonna treat you with respect?
Yeah, and I think that, I think we live in a world that has become very judgy. And it's so interesting because some of the people, you know, who talk about not judging then turn around and judge other people. So, I recently started doing standup comedy It's something that most people don't take up at 51 years old, but a year ago, I started doing this as sort of an experiment to see what I would learn, but I really enjoyed the community. And one of the things I found is it was very odd. I go into a business setting for the last 20 or 30 years and I look like a business guy. I show up, I know how to talk the talk of business, and at a business event, if you stand at a networking event with a glass of wine and you stand by yourself, someone's going to come up and go, Hi. Hi, you know, what brought you to this networking event or whatever? Somebody is going to do that. There's a host of the event or whatever. What I found very interesting was the first 6 months I was doing this, the comedians in my hometown, they would look at me like, who brought their dad? And it was really fascinating to be in a culture where nobody would speak to me. And it was hard for me for a while. I mean, I almost didn't come back because it was so foreign to be in a situation where people would just kind of roll their eyes and they were making assumptions based on the fact that I'm this older business-looking guy who, you know, looks like he had just spent the day working in corporate America. So I found that was a huge learning experience to me, is I'm now looking for the person everywhere I go who looks like maybe they don't feel comfortable or they don't fit in, and I'm going up and talking to them. So that was a huge lesson for me this year.
What are— it's a beautiful lesson because people don't think of that, right? They think, well, the more you Older we get, the more respect you get, but it depends on the environment, as you explained there. So now that you're conscious of that and trying to engage others, what are— have you had some experience or stories that relate to you now trying to do this and a discovery you had or a relationship you started or a wow moment you had, an aha moment?
Yeah, I don't think that there's one I can point to, like in just the last 6 months of kind of discovering this through that being in a community where I was the outsider, but I think throughout my life, I have always tried to do that, and I have friends who are some of the most influential friends in my life who aren't people that if you had gone back in a time machine back 30 years and found me at my frat house in college and said, by the way, your best friends in the world will believe in this, or they will vote for that, or they will be part of that community, I probably would have said, oh, you found the wrong person, time traveler, because I think that we do. We sort of grow up in whatever community we grow up in, and we think that it's always gonna be that way. And my daughter was recently talking about one of my friends who, you know, has a little bit more of an alternative lifestyle than I have, and my daughter said, you're a better person because she's your friend. And I looked at my daughter and I said, yep, that is an astute answer, and I think that that's one of the things that I've learned, not in the last 6 months, but over the last maybe 16 years, is we're better people when we surround ourselves with people who are different than us, people of different races, of different religions, who grew up in different parts of the country or the world, people of different political beliefs. I'll actually say that out loud. I know nobody in today's society wants a friend from the opposite political party, different sexual orientation. I think when we're around people who experience the world differently, I think we become better people.
Absolutely. You know, I've— all friends who, when— who haven't known me a long time, who maybe they come into my life and they meet one of my closest friends. We ride together, we travel together, as far as riding, bike riding, we travel together, and people meet them, they go, how are you two friends? Like, he's literally on the complete political opposite spectrum of you. How do you engage in conversations? And they seem to forget, you mean the fact that he's a great dad? You mean the fact that he's fun to be around? You mean the fact that he believes in his heart in doing the right thing, even though we believe that's the opposite? You know, it's interesting how people cannot find that possible.
You can be friends with somebody who's different as long as you both come into the friendship with respect. I remember my best friend in college, who is, he's my daughter's godfather, he's still like my brother. And this is— you have to take this back into context of the time. This was the 1980s. I don't know if anybody would say this today, but he was Jewish, I was Catholic. And somebody asked us, how can you guys be so close when you come from competing religions? And he and I looked at each other. It had never crossed our mind once, had it never crossed our minds in that format. And he made a joke of it. He said, well, he goes, you know, my religion believes— his religion believes Jesus was the Savior. My religion believes Jesus was a really nice guy. And he goes, other than that, we get along. really, really well. He and I kind of rolled our eyes. We still make jokes about that comment being made to us 30 years ago, but I think it's one of those things that everything doesn't have to be a competition. I never viewed my upbringing around religion as a competitive one. I think everybody— I think people try to divide rather than unite.
Yes, and that's the catch where if we're gonna be the person who's trying to ignite positive change through engagement, We have to be willing to go against that, to say where there is division, where can I bring unity? Wouldn't you agree that's really critical if you're gonna lead right now?
Yeah, I think if we're going to be a leader, whether it's at work or in our community or in politics, I think there's a couple things. I think you have to stand up and take ownership of your own life. I think you have to say, okay, you know, I'm responsible for what I do, at least from this day forward. And I think there's a lot of finger-pointing going on and a lot of blame going on. And I think that the real leaders stand up And go, okay, yeah, that was yesterday. Today, here's what I do. And so I think that sort of ties into what you were talking about.
Yeah. Awesome. And what I love about you, Tom, is you very much openly talk about the engagement you have in— we talked about work, love, and life— that you have in your life, your family life, your personal life. Uh, I've been able to watch the journey of your daughter going through school and all, and you're very open about that in social media too, which I love. So let's talk about engagement in our family lives, in our personal lives. Not everybody has kids or Not everybody's married, but how would you describe the key to that in one's love life, personal life?
I was very fortunate. I had parents who were good role models, who were a good example. My dad always said that they could have had more money, but they didn't prioritize boats and trips. They prioritized experiences for raising the children. It was kind of one of those things that when my mom— when I was a teenager, my mom got really ill. I was a late-life baby, so they could have been empty nesters for a long time if they hadn't little surprise package in their 40s and 50s. And when my mom was— I was a teenager, my mom was 58, she died. And my last conversation I ever had with her, we had this conversation where she actually asked me— she wasn't talking much at that point, she was very sick. She said, would you trade me for a mother who would live longer? And I got really angry. I thought, why would you ask that question? That's ridiculous. Of course not. I think I was crying and I was upset. I was 17 or 18 years old.
It's a powerful question, by the way.
Like I said, at the time, I was upset by it and we started to argue about it and she said, calm down. She said, I ask you this question because if you wouldn't trade me for a parent who would live longer, then you're going to have to deal with the inevitable of what's going to happen. And we ended up talking for an hour about my life after she died. I was going to be a freshman in college. I was a freshman in college. She didn't want to see me drop out of school. She didn't want to see me derail my future. She didn't want to see me hurt relationships I would have with people or turn to drugs or other things. And she was very clear. That we had to have this discussion. And it was one of those things that at the time, we had the discussion and that was fine, but 20 years later, I realized that she knew her purpose in that conversation. I mean, it must have sucked to have been 58 years old and know you were going to die any day or any— within weeks. And yet, in that conversation, she was the parent of a teenager about to lose a parent. As a parent myself now, and everything, I realize the gravity of having that conversation from her side of it. And yet, what the example of that was, was that that was the goal. She told me in that conversation, and she was a religious woman, she said that when I was born, she was in her 40s, she said a little prayer that she would see me through my 18th birthday, high school graduation, and off to college. And then she got kind of a wicked little smile on her face and she goes, my God, if I knew he was listening that closely, I would have asked for a hell of a lot more. But her point was she got everything she wanted and the goal really was raising the family, that that was the priority and getting the kids up and out. And so I think that example that both my parents set around that is something that I've tried to be with my wife and kids is that we're here for this purpose. And sometimes money is tight and my daughter went to a very expensive university and recently I was I was sharing with a friend the amount it cost me and debt and I haven't carried debt and it was more than I thought by the time you figure out room and board. The friend said, you never should have let her go to that expensive of a university. I thought that's so wrong because this was the right school for the right kid at the right time. It is what it is and we'll get through it. But that was our priority was if you could earn your way into one of the most prestigious colleges in the world. How do you not go if that's what you had spent 10 years making sacrifices to do? And so as a family, as a unit, we've gotten behind both the kids and said, you know, we'll help you with this, but that might mean you have to help us someday.
Oh, that's beautiful. Curious, did they ask ever what that meant? They said, someday you're gonna have to help us.
No, but I've nicknamed them Retirement Plan. So, no, I mean, you know, they get the idea that, you know, I mean, it's not like we're broke, we have some money, but, but that we may not be able to take We want to take nice trips when we're retired. Maybe if they're wealthy, they're going to have to find a way to do that or maybe at some point, we're going to have to live close to them and they're going to have to provide some assistance if we can't— if it's not unlimited funds. That's what being part of a family unit is all about. When my dad, who was older when I was born and sort of raised me with the fact that when I was a teenager, something could happen to him. He never expected something would happen to my mother. His parents had died younger and hers had lived longer. So this was not the prediction. After she died, he said, I'm sorry. I was 18. He was 70 and he said, you might have gotten the short end of the stick. I don't know how long I'm going to be around. Well, he just passed away a few years ago at the age of 99. My father ended up living quite a long time, but in the last 5 years, we moved him into a retirement village down the street from one of my brothers. All of us, but especially that one brother, sort of stepped up and taking care of things that he needed. That was just— that was part of being a family unit. When he finally did pass, I remember sending my brother a letter— gosh, I'm getting I'm teary-eyed about it. Sending my brother a letter saying, you know, thank you for all you did for Dad. And his response was, you did it for Mom. And that nobody ever looked at it as anything other than what, you know, a family unit does.
Thank you for sharing, Tom. The beauty of that is everything you just shared is about engagement, being there for other people, what they need, listening, right? Honoring. So much beauty in the reality of what you just shared. For everyone to think about. Would I— am I doing that for my loved ones? Would— am I living a life that was teaching those around me to do that for— would they do that for me in my hour of need? You know, it makes you reflect and think. So that, that's beautiful. Thank you. And now you're the parent of the kids going to college, right? Now you're on the other end of the spectrum. Because one thing I loved about what your mom said that I thought was so amazing was by you saying, I wouldn't trade, then you are able to be grateful for the mom you have in that moment, right? That, that was some of the— that's what I caught in that. I don't know if that's what she was intending at the time, but by you saying that, it allowed to lead with— move forward with gratitude, right?
Well, what, what she said in that, if I remember it clearly, and it's been 30-plus years, 35 years or whatever it's been, but, uh, if I remember it clearly, it was, if you wouldn't trade me Then you have to accept the realities of what this relationship is. The underlying tone of that is this relationship is about to come to an end. However, you take what you learned and you take the good times with you. Yeah, I think that the message was if you wouldn't trade, then you have to just be honest about where you stand, and that's the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Well, yeah, and that's the part that I love about it also. It allows you to sit there and go, I'm thrilled this is my mom, So you can also appreciate every day, you know, that you have with that person. Uh, some, some can hear that story and hear that, which is beautiful too, in and of itself. So now you're the, now you're the parent of somebody going away to college, and we just talked about all those decisions that go with that. But now you have a, a child graduating and getting engaged. So speaking of engagement, that's a whole different discussion of the word engagement, different definition, everything. Are you already starting to think, how do I want to engage her partner for life? How do I want to engage her for life as she moves on into this new relationship? How does engagement play into those relationships?
Well, it's interesting because when you said the word engagement, my mind immediately goes to engagement for matrimony because we're living that right now, right? A year-long countdown now for the, for the wedding. So when she went to college, she didn't know if she would ever get married and have kids. Her goal was to go to the Fortune 500, go to Wall Street, and work in management at some C-level for some sort of a Fortune 500 company. And she is now graduating college, starting her own business in the women's strength and fitness arena and doing some contract work for some people on the side so she can pay her rent while she's launching her business with no intention of going to work for a big bank or Wall Street. And freshman year, she met a guy. And you wouldn't say, oh yeah, go to college and meet a guy freshman year. That's what we would recommend. But 3.5 years later, he's still around. And when he asked for the blessing to ask her to get married, he and I had gone to a Pittsburgh Steelers game. And it was the end of the night, and he was trying to say something, and he's a little bit shy. And he— I realized what was about to happen. And I said, Thomas, I think I know what you're gonna say, what you're gonna ask. It's okay. And he said, I would like your blessing to ask your daughter to marry me. And my answer was— For 3 years, because my daughter and I are so close, everybody asked me, what do you think, Tom? What do you think of Thomas? And, my answer always was, you couldn't ask for your daughter to date a nicer kid because he is a sweet, nice, caring kid. He's also a mathematical genius. I mean, he's one of the smartest mathematicians in the world. And so, I have no idea what he does on a daily basis because he is that smart. But, when he asked for the blessing, I said, I've always said you couldn't ask for your daughter to date a nicer kid. I go, Thomas, from now on, I will give the answer, you couldn't ask for your daughter to marry a nicer man. And so I'm trying to engage him and their relationship as they're adults. This is now their thing, and I am going to have respect. My wife and I aren't here to tell them what to do. We got her through college, and now she's got to figure it out on her own, and she does it with this partner. And he's a nice guy. He comes from a good family. And so all we can do is sit back on the sidelines and be there if they come and ask. But I don't want to be the type of person who Uh, medals. And so, you know, at the end of the day, we're here for you. As your kids get older, you become a guide, not a parent, and they have to ask for that guidance.
Yeah, I love that language. That's beautiful. You have a book that you really recommend that you feel has a big impact, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Dr. Stephen Covey. Of course, a lot of people know of this book. It's obviously a bestseller. What particularly do you love about the book?
Well, so it's kind of old school, right? The book is— God, it's got to be 30 years old. And I read it at a time in my life where I was young and lost and struggling and someone recommended the book to me and it really gave me a roadmap of sort of how to just be a good person who was going to do good things and going to have a good life. I believe that it holds up today. I think that if you read it today, it holds up and gives you sort of that guidance. It gives you that roadmap of how to make decisions. Because careers are hard. Life is hard. To be a highly effective person is not easy. That's why there's not very many of them when you look around. So I think that it's one of those books that came along at the right time and the right place for me. So when I get asked that question, I always go back to that because there's a lot of other books that pop up and things that come and go and flash in the pans, but it's been a bestseller for 30 years. So it's not just me that thinks it's good. The rest of society thinks it holds up as well.
Absolutely. And you are the host of Cool Things Entrepreneurs Do. For all of our listeners, I want you to check that podcast out. Cool Things Entrepreneurs Do. Really, really neat. Tom's won awards for the podcast. So it's really, really cool. To find Tom, there is a uniqueness in the spelling. So we want to make sure all of our listeners know that. Tom has an H right after the T, like Thomas, but no -is at the end. So T-H-O-M, Tom Singer, just like it sounds like you're singing. Singer, S-I-N-G-E-R, tomsinger.com. Find the podcast there. Find Tom there. You can find Twitter, Instagram, all @TomSinger with that H-T-H-O-M. Thank you so much, Tom, for joining us today.
Thank you, Mike. This was great.
Absolutely. And for our listeners, you know what's coming up next? That is question of the week. This week's question is, Mike, how do your friends most profoundly impact your life? For me, this answer is very easy because My friends are such wonderful people that they are role models for me. I look at them as spouses. I look at them as parents and think, wow, look at the love. Look at the guidance. Am I showing up that way? Am I being that loving in that moment? Am I being that appreciative, that supportive, that helpful? And thus it challenges me to want to be a better me. Because of watching them. And that's what I love about having wonderful, caring, loving friends. They make you want to be more of your best self, not just when you're around them, but every day of your life. It's one of the greatest gifts a friend can bring you. We'd love to hear your questions, your thoughts, and your ideas. And the best place to leave those with us is on our Facebook page at facebook.com/ Mutually Amazing Podcast. Of course, you can always contact us on our website at mutuallyamazingpodcast.com. Remember to subscribe to this show so you automatically get it every week. And if you could take one moment to leave a review, that really helps other people find the show, which we are greatly appreciative of. So thank you so much for joining us. May you make today and every day a life full of mutually amazing relationships.
