63: What is Unconventional Leadership. Podcast host, Heather Parady, talks reveals what it is...

Welcome to the Mutually Amazing Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz, with the Center for Respect. The episode you're about to listen to was recorded when this show used to be called the Respect Podcast. So, you might hear that mentioned during this episode. Well, let's get to the show. And this week's guest, we want to get right into it so you get to know Heather Parody, host of the Unconventional Leaders Podcast, a show which studies leaders from all over the world who have built something great from the ground up. So Heather, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you so much, Mike. I appreciate it.

Absolutely. Uh, well, let's dive right in because you talk about unconventional leaders. We're all about respect. They really go well together with each other. What do you think is the importance of keeping people at the forefront as a leader? Why is that important? Or what does it take to be at the forefront of being a leader for an individual out there?

Yeah, I think it goes down to what John Maxwell says, which is simply influence and respecting the influence that you do have and honoring that. And that can be influenced from a massive perspective, you know, you have millions of people following you, or it can be influence of You know, those 2 little eyeballs in your kitchen who are looking at you as a role model. We all have influence. And I think recognizing that and to, to your point, respecting it and honoring that is, is what it takes to be a leader.

And so how do you do that? What are specific questions people can ask themselves to evaluate, am I doing that?

Yeah, I think knowing what comes to you naturally, I think is really important, which is that self-awareness piece. I think that's kind of a buzzword right now of becoming self-aware. But it's so important to know who you are naturally and the natural tribe or community or people that gather around you naturally to really understand your type of leadership and who you are, who you are naturally and honoring that. So, I think just doing a basic self-analysis, whether that is You know, going out by yourself and just analyzing your life and trends that you've seen or things that you naturally enjoy and position. You know, when you think of leadership, it's always, I don't know, when I started this show, I thought, you know, leaders are always these men in business suits who, you know, have everything together and carry briefcases and are in boardroom meetings. And the more I started to realize that leaders were people who just stepped up into their fullness.

Yeah.

And that requires self-analysis. It requires self-awareness to really understand who you are to walk into that.

Is there a process or questions people can ask others to help them see that? Because a lot of times, as you know, people don't really see themselves the way the rest of the world does. And so, they have a biased view of who they are and sometimes can actually get in their way. They can be playing themselves way too small than they need to be to be that unconventional leader.

Absolutely. Yeah. Taking— I've had close friends of mine send me emails and gone through processes with different coaches and say, hey, Heather, who do you see me as? And, you know, what are some of my strengths? What are some of my weaknesses? And I think that was— that's just an incredible practice if you have a group of people in your life who can tell you the truth in a loving way, you know, to be very honest with you about what they see in you. And also to asking those questions to people who you want to be like and you respect, because a lot of times we speak from what we know. So we can even project onto other people our own fears and our own insecurities. And so we may seek counsel with someone who, who's really struggling themselves to see themselves as all that they can be. So being careful, I think, who you seek counsel from is really important. I think another thing is journaling. And I know that sounds weird, but just this morning I was rereading over— I keep one journal every year; I have for the past 15 years. And I'm constantly rereading back over different years. And I was in 2009 this morning reading through some stuff. And I saw some recurring themes back 10 years ago, things that I'm still struggling with now. And I'm like, hey, Heather, there's a sign. There's some stuff, you know, that's really internal going on with you as a person, as a leader that you need to address. It's not circumstantial; this is something to do with you. And I think having a journal that you can reflect back on is a really powerful thing to do as well.

I, I love journaling. I noticed a big difference when I don't journal versus when I do, where my day is, where my mindset's at, especially at a place of gratitude.

Yes.

And what that can help us be grateful for when we're journaling. It's so much more powerful there. So here we are, it's Unconventional Leader, that's your podcast. What does it mean when somebody says, well, why is it unconventional? Isn't that just leadership? So what's the difference?

It started when I was a therapist. I was a youth therapist, and I worked in a children's home. And I was working with these young girls who had so much potential. It was unreal, their talent, their ability, and they just didn't see it in themselves. And for good reason. I mean, they had literally been thrown out by their families, by society. They had No one. And so, as you can imagine, being in a vulnerable state at that age anyway, and then having those circumstances, it was all they could do to just survive. And as therapists, that was really what we were there to do is to help them cope and get through the day. And I started to really question that idea of just coping and just surviving and started really seeing the potential that these young women had, even at 14, 15 years old. And I just started to ask myself, what is the difference between someone who goes through complete hell and has struggled so much and steps into their greatness and all that they can be, and they make a big difference in this world, versus someone who goes through the exact same thing and ends up in jail or on the street or dealing with major mental disorders their entire life? And I didn't really know the answer to that. And to be honest, I still don't know the answer, but I wanted to set out on a journey to ask that question and hear stories from people who have come from unconventional places, who have struggled and really shouldn't have made it and did. And I don't mean just in successful terms of, you know, making X amount of dollars or whatever, but really overcoming their own internal battle, honoring, respecting that influence that they do have, and using their voice, making an impact in this world.

So with that, you're talking about, you know, finding that voice. Do you believe that people have a calling or a purpose, or do you think that's something that is more— that's too focused on, and people should gain that skill that they'll get a purpose and a calling for once they're accomplished?

Oh, Mike, I'm a super spiritual girl, so I absolutely believe in calling and purpose. And I think that it's not a definite, like, this is your calling and this is your purpose. I think it's more of a state that you enter into, that you are walking in your calling, that you are walking in your purpose, and that's going to lead and direct you into a multitude of different things and at different times. So, I think we get stuck on the, you know, the titles and the plans and all that. And trust me, I have a spreadsheet for everything, but I think it's more of a state, a spiritual state that you're in.

And when you say— so, how does somebody get there? Like, listen to me, you know, I know a lot of people who will say to me, You're like, hey, Mike, you have this calling. You have this purpose in your life. I don't have one and I don't feel there's one out there. So, how do you help somebody find that?

I think it's getting in a deep, deep connection with the higher being, so God, universe, whatever you want to call it. For me, it's God, just really connecting to something greater than yourself and finding, like I said at the very beginning, that thing that comes really, really natural to you. And I think that's what people mean, Mike, when they say that to you, that calling on your life, because the uniqueness of The creativity of a human being is just amazing. And to think about what I would study years and years to do would come naturally to you, Mike, in just a moment or a second, I think points and gives us hints towards things we should be walking in. And really honoring your calling is, I think, honoring yourself and honoring the gifts that you have and putting people and a mission at the forefront of your mind that's, you know, creating something that's going to outlast you, something that's greater than just you.

Yeah.

building Heather's empire or building Mike's empire just for the sake of doing it, but actually attaching a vision and a, uh, mission behind it.

And along that journey, you believe that Adler's theory of human behavior, the underdog, the unconventional ideas on leadership, you believe that plays a role. So, one, can you explain what it is for those who are going, what are you talking about? And 2, how it plays a role?

Yeah. Adler was super cool. He was a psychologist way back in the day, uh, when Freud was starting to, you know, write his books and people started to know who he is. He was actually another psychologist that was underneath Freud for a little bit of time until they split ways. But he had his own idea of why we are the way we are. And his thought was that we are all born with this sense of inferiority. And that inferiority can be, you know, I grew up poor. I'm not worthy, or, I grew up with this disability. I'm not worthy, or, you know, I have this color in my skin or this gender, or whatever it may be. My dad didn't love me, or whatever that issue is. We all have this inferiority. And what we do is that we work our entire lives to try to overcompensate for that and to work for that. And so what I loved about his theory, I think all psychologists had some truth to their idea, is he taught That's a natural thing. You know, like, I grew up poor, so I'm going to work really hard to try to make money. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. That's just kind of how we're wired because of the way we grew up. But what we can do so it doesn't turn into dysfunction is to attach a deeper purpose and a deeper why to that, which he called societal good. And so if I were to say, you know, I grew up without the love of a father and I'm overcompensating for that in this negative way, how can I use that pain? How How can I use that struggle? How can I use that inferiority to actually shape and mold a powerful message that will end up changing people's lives? And so, it's not something that you overcome. It's something that you shift into something that's more productive.

Well, and you speak about how the impact of how we grow up plays a role there. And you've mentioned previously prior to the show about growing up without an education. What do you mean by that? I could hear people thinking, well, what do you mean you grew up without an education?

Literally, like, without an education. I was homeschooled. I'm doing the air quotes in there. My education stopped around, gosh, I would say around 7th grade, and it was really shaky even before then. My mom suffered from severe mental health issues, and my dad left when I was around 12 years old. And so, our education, mine and my sister's, was really next to none. So I remember trying a little bit in elementary school, and we did some things, not full days of school by any means. I knew how to read and write and do some very, very basic math. But when it progressed past that, it just wasn't there. So I really struggled with just inferiority, as you can imagine, of just like, oh my God, I'm never going to get a real job. I'm never going to make money. It was just not even an option to me. Going through college and then getting on, you know, getting my master's degree and all of that, it was a huge eye-opener to me about the element of grit, that how powerful grit can be, because I'm not naturally smart. I struggled really, really, really bad in school. I YouTubed my way through it. I tell people all the time, I YouTubed so much stuff learning some of the really basic things. That element of grit, I learned fast that there were people with predispositions in there towards, you know, just natural tendencies to memorize and all of that. And I kept up with them, and not because I was at their level, but because I wanted it so, so bad. So, I talk a lot about grit in the show and believe in it with all my heart because of that experience.

Well, and yet grit is intelligence. So, you must have a lot of smarts and intelligence to do everything you just said. I figured it out by going to YouTube. I figured it out. You problem solved. And so I think it's always interesting, formal education versus education, right? They're very different. Uh, yet you can be, you can be genius. There are geniuses out there without formal education. So we, there's history of human existence where that's true. And yet you did go on to get a master's. So you got into college, you were able to do all of that, which says a lot in there. And so you, you came from that underdog position, which is something you talk about.

Yeah.

And you talk about the fact how that builds humility and a big picture approach. What do you mean that underdog is more likely to create a big picture approach? Sure.

Well, it can, you know, again, it goes back to that variable of like, what's the difference between person A and person B? You know, person A can get a major chip on their shoulder and it's like, screw the world. And, you know, I'm going to crawl on everybody that I can to get to the top. But if you shift, kind of like Adler talks about, and look at societal good and attach yourself to a bigger purpose, Then it can give you another element of compassion and empathy for people that you're trying to reach, which really, I think, makes an incredible leader is when you can see people for people and love them for who they are, no matter what level or state that you're at. And I think when you have a personal experience of, yeah, I grew up poor too, yeah, I didn't have a mom, yeah, I didn't, etc., etc., then it's easier to connect with people on a human level. And so often our disadvantages actually can become our Competitive advantages, not only from, you know, an emotional state that we are able to connect with people more, but people also can respect us more because they said, hey, Mike's been through some stuff, and I can, I can trust Mike because I understand where he's coming from because that was me too.

How does somebody overcome the always trying to live up, always trying to make up for what I lacked, you know, falling into that trap? You'll hear it with With this awful analogy, you hear people say when somebody's short, right? The Napoleon, uh, concept, you know, this idea that they have the Napoleon syndrome, whatever the term is. I'm having a brain freeze right now, but that you're always overcompensating for the lack of whatever it is you felt you didn't have in life, whether it was education or whether it was opportunity. How does somebody avoid that?

I don't know if you can, Mike. I don't know if it's something that you're ever fully I'm checkbox. I'm healed from this, and I'm fully. I think what happens, and again, this is this is just my limited experience of 32 years. I may learn something different, but as of right now, I just I don't see a complete end to that. What I see is a healthy understanding of your motivations and trying to constantly keep yourself in check, keeping yourself accountable to what your actions are. I mean, there's there are many times I say. Yeah, Heather, you're doing this for the right reasons. And then I'll, you know, I really believe that. And then when I really stop and I'm still with myself, again, going back to that self-awareness and that quiet time and that journaling and reflecting and talking to people who you can really trust, checking yourself, you know, am I, am I working really hard at this? And because I have grit and I'm determined, or am I trying to prove something? Where's my worth? Where's my validation coming from? And that is such a hard— I think that is the— That is the question for humanity is like, why are we like that? And how can we get it? And, you know, I believe that there is an element that comes from, from God and from a higher being that you have to attach yourself to that. For those who, you know, don't believe in that, it's something within yourself. You have to attach yourself to something outside of performance, a being, I believe, that you're going to find that worth and that value from, because otherwise we'll just run ourselves into the ground. I know I will. I'm definitely a Type A doer person. So. Yeah.

Oh, I'm the same way. You can easily fall into the trap of how many listeners do I have? How many people like that pod, that, that post I put up on social media? So easy to fall into that trap, even as grown adults, as mature older adults. And you tell kids, don't get caught up into popularity, and yet you get caught up in that validation that can happen. And so I think it's so important of that. What am I seeking? Where is my validation? So I'm careful of that. So I'm honoring that. And you talk about specifically. Be— when you're putting yourself out to the world, being consistent in your content, what do you mean by that?

Yeah, well, you know, you talk about respect on the show. I think, you know, as a leader, as someone who is stepping out and trying to put their message out there, whether they're podcasting or a blog, or, you know, this has become a really popular way to kind of, quote, step into leadership, is this online space, which is so tricky. But I see over and over again, people really struggling with just the consistency piece. I want to start this nonprofit. I want to write this book. I want to do this. I want to do that. And ideas are one thing and execution is another. And I want to even go further that execution without continual follow-through is even another thing. And that's where I see a lot of people having a hard time. And building trust with your tribe and really showing up fully as the kind of leader that you want to be requires you to show up when it's not going well and when it is, when you do see those numbers and you're happy. And then when you see those numbers and you're not happy and still showing up consistently. So yeah, one of the things that I help content creators do, leaders, people who are putting their message out there, is to not only start, because that's one piece, but also hang in there and be consistent and show up because Again, that's showing respect. If I were to say to you, Mike, I'm going to come to your house every single day and bring you a donut. Tomorrow's National Donut Day. So, that's why I'm saying this. And I do that. I do that every single Tuesday. And then one day, I just stopped showing up. You're gonna be like, where did Heather go? And then let's say 3 months later, I show up and I act like that nothing ever happened. And I don't mention I was gone. I don't do anything. And I just give you another donut. You're not going to trust me. This girl's a quack. Right? And we do that over and over and over again within the online space or as leaders, as we say, hey, I'm going to lead you in this way. I'm going to show up for you. I'm going to give you this. I'm going to do that. And we build this trust and this relationship with these people that we feel, quote, called to serve. And then they look up one day and we're gone. And they're like, where did she go? And that puts a bad taste in your mouth, and for good reason. And so I just think in the online space, in the leadership space, we have to treat Relationships, like real relationships, as if it were face-to-face, if it were somebody that we personally knew, whether we do or we don't, because that's just part of respect.

Well, you just walked us right in that conversation, which is being that entrepreneur. You're a podcast host, you work with entrepreneurs. How do you balance that entrepreneurial life in relationships? I mean, it's so easy for us who run our own organizations, companies, to constantly look, go back to the website and look at something I need to improve, a project I'm working on. There is always something we can dive into and we want to. That's the scary part, right? There are people go, well, at work I always have something I can dive into, but you want to not— a lot of people who are at work are like, oh, I wish I didn't have to do this project, where the entrepreneurial mindset is, I want to be in there. So how do you balance that?

Man, question of the century, right? I, um, imperfectly right now, it's— I would say that I have the most generous and kind husband ever in the world. And I really, I don't know how, I don't know how people can without good communication and someone who they can really— because that's what it is, communication. Brian and I, we— and he has his own business too, but we meet once a week on Saturday morning. We make a pot of coffee and we sit down at the table and it's just like a business, but it's our relationship. And we sit there and we say, hey, this is going on this week and this is what to expect. And what can we get better? And we actually look at all the categories in our lives, from relationships to health to business to our children, and just analyze that. It only takes about 20 or 30 minutes, believe it or not. But something small like that is huge because it opens communication. And also, again, that respect element of saying, hey, Brian, I respect you just as much as I respect my business. I love you, and vice versa. So that's been really, really huge. And one thing I learned recently from a previous guests, Graham Cochran. He's incredible. He's built a multimillion-dollar business online, and he built it from the ground up with strong work hours in place, which hurt my feelings, Mike. I was like, what are you talking about, work hours? What does that mean? I get done when I get done. But he gave a really good argument for your own, for your relationships and your mental health to actually put a stop Of I'm quitting work X. I actually have time off here. And I mean, he did that when he was at zero all the way until $1 million, having strong work boundaries. And I've been trying to practice that over the few months imperfectly, Mike, I'll be honest with you. But it's something I'm trying to practice because, again, I got these little eyeballs in here looking at me and you can build the whole world, but if your relationships are gone, was it worth it?

Oh, it's so important. And we found that in our lives too, that you've got to be able to set those boundaries. So, so important. Now, you did something unique. We mentioned it earlier. You got your master's degree and then you, as you put, you decided to put the degree in the closet and podcast instead. So what was that like risk-wise? What drove you to it? How did you overcome fears, concerns?

Oh, madness. That's what drove me to it, Mike. It is crazy. Like sometimes I still ask myself like, Heather, what, what are you doing? You know, you, you worked 7 years to get this degree and it was a dream of mine. I mean, even read over when I was a teenager, wrote, I want to be a therapist one day. I started building a business in graduate school and I fell in love with it. I would go home and when most people would go home and curl up with their Freud and Adler books and read more about that, I would go and listen to Gary Vee and online business and SEO and all of this stuff. I was just amazed by it. And what really drew me to it Is the potential for good people to do huge work through the online space. I'm talking like cultural change. So, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, monetary-wise, we can do— there's no cap on how much you can make in the online space. But if you think about impact too, we're talking into a microphone and people from all over the world are hearing us. It's incredible. It's an incredible time to live in. And this may be a random season in my life, whatever, I just knew. in my heart that if I did not follow that calling that we're going to go back to, that nudge, that thing that was really drawing me, that I would always wonder what if. And that was a few years ago, and I don't regret it at all. It's put me in contact with people I never would have met. I've talked to an insane amount of people all the time and are able to help people in a different way than I thought I was going to be able to. Yeah, I think if you have that nudge, that natural curiosity, the thing that keeps you up at night, I think it's worth looking at and taking a little bit of a risk. Yeah.

Well, that's awesome. And you have 2 books you recommend. Gifts of Imperfection, I've talked about on this show. I love Brené Brown. So I'm gonna ask you about the other one, What to Do When It's Your Turn. And I think the subtitle is, and it's always your turn, uh, by Seth Godin. So why that book, Heather?

Because Seth Godin is amazing. If you do not follow him, I highly, highly recommend his work. He is an unconventional marketer in the sense of he has a philosophy around marketing that, again, going back to those natural gifts and the things that you want to use, that they're not yours. They're there to be given away. And sometimes it's not going to work, and sometimes it's going to be messy. But the entire point of it is to show up and again, be consistent. I love that book specifically because he was very creative in the way that he physically wrote the book. It looks like a magazine. There's so many stories. The format of it is like, it's really, really unique. But the message in it is there's so many people waiting saying, oh, it's not my season. It's not my time. I'll start that later. I'll do that. And what Seth is saying is it's your turn now. It's always your turn. You have to step up, step into it, and give the gift that you have to the world.

Love it. Thank you so much, Heather. I want to make sure that all of our listeners can find you and the website's easy. HeatherParady.com. It's P-A-R-A-D-Y. And of course, if you're listening to my podcast, that means you listen to at least one podcast. So check out Heather's podcast, The Unconventional Leaders Podcast, which is a great podcast in and of itself. So thank you, Heather, very much for joining us.

Mike, I'm so honored. Thank you.

Absolutely. For all of our listeners, you know what's next. That is question of the week. Before I answer this week's question of the week, I'd love to ask you a question. Would you please subscribe to this podcast, the Respect Podcast with Mike Damish? By subscribing, you can make a huge impact. Now you might be wondering, Mike, how does my subscribing to your podcast make a huge impact? Well, here's how. For every person that subscribes, it raises the rankings of the show in the search engines. So for people who care about respect like yourself, when they're doing a search for podcasts, they're more likely to find this show, thus Providing an awesome opportunity for us to spread more respect around this world. And all you do is hit subscribe under your podcast. Plus, the second benefit is by subscribing, you automatically get every episode right into your phone or whatever device you are listening to the podcast on. It happens automatically. So subscribing also makes your life easier. Now let's get into this week's question of the week. Oh, and by the way, you can always ask your questions of the week. By joining us on Facebook in our discussion group. It's called the Respect Podcast Discussion Group. Go there on Facebook and ask whatever questions you would like me to answer and/or address in this segment of the show, and then listen to each episode to find out when your question is included. A statement that if I thought of myself and that was attached to me, that would disappoint me in that being attached with me. And so it allows me to have that conversation with me, and direct tends to do that with When I think of profound moments in my life where somebody said something, it was almost always a situation where somebody was very direct. And at the time it might've been very difficult. It was exactly what I needed to hear. So for me, I prefer direct. And that doesn't mean that there aren't times where you need that loving approach, without a doubt. I just know for me, the most transformative moments have usually started with a direct statement. We'd love to hear your questions, your thoughts, and your ideas. And the best place to leave those with us is on our Facebook page at facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast. Of course, you can always contact us on our website at mutuallyamazingpodcast.com. Remember to subscribe to this show so you automatically get it every week. And if you could take one moment to leave a review, that really helps other people find the show, which we are greatly appreciative of. So thank you so much for joining us. May you make today and every every day a life full of mutually amazing relationships.