64: What Most Leaders and Managers Get Wrong about Accountability with Sam Silverstein

Welcome to the Mutually Amazing Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz, with the Center for Respect. The episode you're about to listen to was recorded when this show used to be called the Respect Podcast. So, you might hear that mentioned during this episode. Well, let's get to the show. And this episode, we are introducing you to Sam Silverstein. He is the author of 8 books, 8, on the subject of accountability, leadership, and personal growth. He is committed to being and helping others be the best they can be. Sam has been referred to as the most trusted voice on accountability, and I agree with that wholeheartedly. What's best about Sam is that I get to call him an incredible, amazing friend and a brother. And sometimes you get to say, these are your brothers and sisters you were born into, and you, you have that wonderful family relationship. And there are others that you say, this is— my brother, sister who I've chosen in my life. And Sam is one of those. Sam, thank you so much for joining us.

It's my honor. You know, we never decided, am I the older brother or the younger brother, or, or are we just twins?

There we go. We'll take twins.

Okay.

Cause I know the answer to that and so do you. So we'll take twins.

I like that answer. Okay.

So awesome. Well, thank you, Sam, so much for joining us. We're going to, you know, today's all about, our show's always all about respect. You and I have talked so many times about doing something on stage together, because for anybody listening today, know that Sam is an amazing speaker, speaks all over the world for the largest and smallest of organizations all over. And you have a, you and I have always said we belong on the same stage together, just engaging in a conversation because accountability and respect so much align or are so critical to each other. So, Sam, why is that true?

Respect flows out of how you see people, and accountability flows out of how you see people. And accountability is keeping your commitments to people. And if people are involved, it's— you're responsible for things, but you're accountable to people. That's the big difference. That report won't hold you accountable, but I know you will. And hopefully you won't hold me accountable, Mike. You'll help me be accountable, which is the true relationship. between accountable people. And so anytime people are involved, relationships are involved. People that master relationship master accountability. Organizations that master relationship master accountability. Organizations that struggle with relationships struggle with accountability. And what can be more important in a relationship than respect? That's at the very core. And so what you believe about someone is gonna determine how you act towards that individual. Action always follows belief. And if belief is centered in respect for all people, whether they look the same or look different, believe the same, believe different, come from where you come from or comes from someplace different, when that respect is in place, that's when amazing things are gonna happen.

I love that. And I'm gonna back up a little bit. Because you said something that's really important about being, helping somebody on their accountability journey. You are not holding them accountable. And this is something that you've always been big on and that you really, you flip the paradigm of what most people think of. A lot of people think, oh, as a manager or leader, it's my job to make them accountable. And you say, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's, let's talk about that. 'Cause it's actually not true at all. So Sam, can you explain why that's not true?

Okay. So as a leader, your job is to be accountable. to them and to create an environment that inspires them to be accountable and inspires them to be their best. It's totally the opposite of, of how most of society sees it. Most of society freely interchange the word responsibility with accountability, and we've already established they're 2 different things. Responsible for things, accountable to people.

Let's pause on that so people understand. Can you give some examples of responsible for things, accountable for people?

Your job description lists everything you're supposed to do at work, or certainly some of the major aspects of it. Those are your responsibilities. So, you know, maybe depending on what your job is, you're responsible to clean up the work area. You're responsible to get a report done every Friday on sales. You're responsible to make 20 sales calls a day. You're responsible Those are your responsibilities. And if you're not doing those, you should be fired. I mean, if you have the skill set, if you've been trained, if you have the resources, well, why would you let someone stay that's not doing that? Now, accountable to people, your accountability is keeping your commitments to people, and it's very specific commitments. I'm not talking about the commitments of I'll show up at 9. I'm talking about much more substantial, deeper commitments that build relationship, That connect to respect and that produce accountability. People see accountability as punitive. Oh, it's my fault. I'm sorry. I won't let that happen again. No, accountability isn't punishment. It's not punitive. That's your responsibility. Accountability is proactive. And when accountability is present in an organization, it is present because the leader understands that they're accountable to their people first, and they create the environment For their people to want to be accountable.

Well, what I love about that language is accountable to people is very different than accountable over people, which is what a lot of people tend to do. They tend to think, I need to make them accountable, versus I need to be accountable for what I'm responsible to help them thrive, to help them be bought in. Because you also have a very important definition on what accountability means, which I love, which is if somebody's accountable— and I'll let you go into this— but what I love is this concept of If somebody's accountable, you don't need to hold them accountable because they are so invested in this organization and in their job, they are accountable. You should never have to hold someone accountable because they are accountable. So, can you explain that? Was that correct in how I said it or is there a different version?

Yes, yes. And boy, there's a lot there and I'll go in one direction, but I want to come back because I want to talk about the difference between accountable to and accountable for. But let's first go where you said. So what happens is when the leader is accountable to the people, when the leader is, is being accountable first, then you create that environment where the employee says, if it's in a business, I would never want to let Sue down. I would never want to let Mary down. I would never want to let John down. And if you feel in your heart that you would never want to let someone down, Well, then you're not going to. And guess what? You're going to be keeping your commitments back to them, and accountability is going to thrive. So it's like the misinformed leader that says, oh, well, you know, my people, they have to earn my trust. No, that's wrong. That's not the way that it works. You have to earn their trust. And the way that happens is you have to trust them first. And so everything rises and falls on leadership, and accountability is the highest form of leadership because it's about the leader being accountable to the people first and creating this wonderful environment. We call that corporate culture, where the people are inspired to be their best and to choose to be accountable. And there are organizations where this happens, and in those organizations Not only is there incredibly high engagement and satisfaction, but the bottom line flourishes beyond what is ever imaginable in business.

And I love that you brought that up because a lot of people think, well, to build that, you have to be willing to sacrifice the bottom line. And what you have found working with the clients that you help all over the world is it's the direct opposite. The ones that are doing this well are incredibly profitable. Have incredibly successful track records of consistency financially. And I think that's interesting because people go, yeah, but look at this one company over here. They short, they take all the shortcuts and they make all this money. Well, I've always believed in what a guest said recently. There are 2 ways to do things when it comes to make money the wrong way, as far as ethically and morally, you can still make money doing that and the right way. And so why not choose the right way?

Well, exactly. I mean, you can be inefficient and make money. So why not be more efficient from a, from a manufacturing standpoint. Well, it's the same way with the other aspects of business. And so what happens is this, and I shared with you prior to this call, I shared with you a company I was just with 2 days ago, where in 2008, when half of the homebuilders in the United States went broke, half went broke during the Great Recession, this company Like the year before and like the year after, their business went up 30%. Well, there's a reason why that happens, and it's not luck. And it's tied to accountability from leadership to their people creating this environment because they spend as much time focused on building this environment where people wanna be accountable, where people respect each other. They spend as much time on that as they do on how do you build a better house. Now we got to back up. We got to back up because I told you I wanted to talk about accountable to and accountable for. Can we do that?

Yeah, let's go there.

Okay. So, and this I think also helps because the significance for the leader comes out in this situation. A lot of times, if I'm in front of an audience, I'll ask them, who are you accountable to? And they say, oh, well, you know, I'm accountable to my boss, they sign my check. I'm accountable, they might say, I'm accountable to my peers in the organization, I'm accountable to my parents. And there's all sorts of people that you're accountable to. And then I'll stop and I'll say, well, who are you accountable for? And there's always this silence and this seriousness that comes up and they go— Oh, wow. Well, I'm accountable for my children. I'm accountable for the people that report to me. I'm accountable— and they list everyone in their life, personally, professionally, whatever, that they're accountable for. And so here's the difference. When you're accountable to, they're responsible for some aspect of your wellbeing and they affect your life beyond a surface level. And so does your boss impact your life beyond a surface level? Sure. Do the people who report to you impact your life?

Sure.

Do your parents as a young child? Sure. Now, accountable for is you're responsible for some aspect of their well-being. You impact their life beyond a surface level. And so I liken this to the difference between ownership and stewardship. Ownership, you can do what you want. But when it's stewardship, if it's my money, I can do what I want. But if I'm a steward and I am for my mother, for her resources, I can't take chances. I have to protect that like crazy. There's a higher degree of responsibility. And as leaders, whether we're leaders in a business, leaders in our family, leaders in our synagogue, mosque, or church, leaders in the community, when we are accountable for some aspect of the well-being of someone else, that responsibility carries with it such importance that when we step that out through the commitments that we make and keep with those people, we become accountable and we inspire them to be accountable.

Ideally, we're accountable to and accountable for, right? It's not one or the other. Let's say that you're a parent or a leader in an organization. You're accountable to the people you lead, as you said, because you need to be role modeling, creating that, setting that atmosphere. You're also accountable for them because you're in charge of that division. If you're a parent, you're in charge, you know, that's your family. So, is it a yes and a yes, or is it no, it's always for and not to?

Great question. So, here's the thing. If you're accountable for, you are always accountable to. But if you're accountable to, that does not mean that you're accountable for. When your children were younger, when they're 8, 9, 10 years old, They're accountable to us as parents. They're accountable to us to clean their room, to do the right things, to do their homework, whatever it is, okay? But they're not accountable for us. They're not. We're accountable for them. And in that situation, when we're accountable for them, we're also accountable to them. It doesn't work reciprocal both ways. If you're accountable to, it doesn't mean you're accountable for. But if you're accountable for, you're always accountable to.

Makes perfect sense. So, let's take an example in the corporate world where you're accountable to but not accountable for.

Well, it's real simple. If you're my boss, I'm accountable to you, but that doesn't mean I'm accountable for you. You're my boss. If you're a leader, the true definition of leadership is accepting the responsibility of someone else. That's what a leader does. I mean, you can be a leader in title, but to be a leader in fact, forget the title. To be a leader in fact, you've accepted the responsibility for someone else. And so in that situation, you're accountable for their well-being. That means I'm not in your company just to produce something so you make money. You're accountable for my success, which means you have to train me, you have to educate me, you have to look for— you're supposed to if you're a truly accountable leader— what potential do I have? How can you help me develop that potential? How can you grow me as a person? How can you help me be better, even if it means one day I'm going to go someplace else? Now, when you make that kind of investment in me, in time, in money, well, guess what? I would never want to let you down. I would never go to another organization for a nickel, a dollar, $5, whatever. Now, might I outgrow the organization? Might I end up someplace else? Yes. And if that happens, you will celebrate that. And guess what? My loyalty doesn't go away. I'm still sending the best people to you, and you're building an organization of great people, attracting great people, and retaining great people. And I'll argue this with anyone, if you attract the best and keep the best, you will outperform everyone. It is a bottom line. There is a bottom line result that connects to accountability. It's undeniable, but you have to look at your people first, not the bottom line. If you're only focused on the bottom line, It's, it's a short-term decision, not a long-term decision.

Well, yeah, it fits in the old statement, winners want to be with winners, right? So if you're creating a winning environment, you draw more winners. It just is logical.

Exactly. Exactly.

I could see the danger for some people out there is that they're trying to be accountable for when they should be accountable to, and that can be dangerous. So if, if I'm trying to make myself accountable for my boss, I'm stepping over a boundary that might not be appropriate, and I don't have enough ability to actually impact or control that. And there can— a lot of drama can come up in that. It can become an unhealthy relationship because I'm trying to fix something that's not mine to fix.

Well, ultimately, I get that. I get that. And I guess it depends on the severity of the situation and your actions in that moment. But the most accountable leaders are are transparent, they're humble, and they're willing to step aside from their ego. They're able to have the open and honest conversation with somebody. And so one of the 10 commitments is a commitment to live the values of the organization. If I'm a leader and I made a decision and it does not connect with one of our values, you should feel more than comfortable because of the relationship that I have worked to build with you as the leader. I'm the leader. You should feel more than comfortable to look at me in the eye and say, Sam, I think you're missing something here. If we do that, you realize that we're not living as we say we believe in value and this value of whatever that value is. And I should go, wow, Mike, I didn't see it like that. I totally missed that. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Now, when that type of relationship exists between people, then what happens is employees aren't looking over their shoulder because they know the leader's got their back. So they only look in one direction, which is forward. And if you're not looking back and you're only looking forward, guess what? You move faster. Organizations that move faster are always going to outperform the competition. Always. It's still gonna come back to the relationship that's in place that allows you or me to have that frank discussion with someone, whether they report to us or we report to them. And when you can do that, because we're all human beings, so this comes down to the R word, respect. It doesn't matter about the title. It doesn't matter that you earn more than me. We're still human beings working together. You just happen to be the president and— And, and I'm, I'm an engineer. That's just what it is. But we both have the same worth, the same value as people. And so now when we can talk to each other as people, this organization is going to flourish in a way that it's never flourished before. This is counterintuitive to what most leaders believe. They might say they believe something different, but their actions tell me otherwise.

All right. So that's a great point, Sam. Let's go into some questions. every listener out there could ask themselves to help them further identify whether they're on the right track in this area or where they could make some changes, some improvements. So what are some example questions that everyone could ask themselves right now about their role, either in their family or their work, that would identify if they're accountable to, for, you know, tells them what's happening there?

I have created a personal assessment that people can take that iamaccountable.com/me that does provide valuable information around that.

And we'll have that in the show notes.

I would start looking at my relationships and look at them and go, am I accountable to or am I accountable for? And when you look at that relationship and you say, am I accountable to, am I accountable for? Then I'll go, what does that mean? And how is that playing out? And how am I honoring that accountability in my actions? And so you're really stepping back and you're saying, this is where I'm performing and this is where I'm coming up short and this is where I might need to reinforce. And so I think that's a great place for people to start and then realize that accountability and responsibility are different and look at accountability through the commitments to people. And not the transactional commitments like getting me the report you promised me. That is important. I don't want to diminish that, but are you keeping specific commitments like commitment to the truth, commitment to your values, commitment to a safe place to work? Not just physically safe, emotionally safe. And that comes back to respect and things of that nature. And so, How do you see people? Are you valuing people? Do you judge people? These are all sorts of conversations that I try to have with myself on an ongoing basis, and I would encourage anyone else to have with themselves as well.

Sam, where did this show up in your life? Where was there a moment where you had an aha takeaway for yourself to say, this is what accountability means to you? Was that moment that drove you to this path? Because you have a— you had a very successful corporate America career. You were running a large manufacturing company that was highly successful. Where along the path was it before that? Was it after that, that accountability struck you as an aha moment?

You know, I've, I've made a lot of mistakes in business and sometimes I, I say, and I've shared this with you, I think back on, my window manufacturing business, and I go, wow, I just really wish I knew then what I know now. And, that's easy to say and we can all say that, but I just feel like I could have impacted people's lives in a much more significant way. I was working as a consultant, as a speaker, author-speaker, working with companies for 10 years before I realized that everything I did really came down to accountability. But, it was still another 5 years after that before I really discovered what accountability was. And, I discovered it I had been saying the right words all along, but I truly did not understand them. And they were not truly in my heart until I came across a bank and did a case study on a bank and ultimately wrote a book about that bank, where I saw it in action from the leader of the bank down. And I saw what it created in their culture. I saw what it created in their people. And I saw what it created on the bottom line and the impact financially they had on everyone that was associated with that bank. And through that study, I saw things that I had not really seen before. And for me, that became transformational.

It's a powerful book. I want all of our listeners to be able to look it up. It's Non-Negotiable is the title of the book. It's the story of Happy State Bank. It, it is an incredible book. What I love about all your books, cuz other Sam books are No More Excuses, Making Accountable Decisions No Matter What, The Lost Commandments. And The Success Model, they're all easy reads. And I think that's so important for people because some people out there, I'm not a big reader, but when you get a book that's an easy read, it just flies through and you can absorb it in a relatively short period of time too, because they are easy reads. And you make it easy for people to take skill sets and implement them in their lives, which is just really powerful to relate to them. So, I recommend for anybody—

Thank you.

Absolutely. For anybody listening, you want to check it out, Non-Negotiable. Super, super powerful, easy-read book that makes a big difference out there. Sam, you know how much I love you, so thank you so much for joining us today.

Well, Mike, you know how much I love you, and so thank you for the honor of sharing me with people that you value so greatly. That means a lot to me. And of course, anytime I can be of service for you and your friends and the people in your life, then all someone has to do is let me know.

I love it. Sam's website for everyone listening, want to make sure you can find Sam: iamaccountable.com or samsilverstein.com. Uh, he has a special link there, samsilverstein.com/me. Uh, so just so you're aware of that, that's also out there too. And we have all the other links— YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram— all on the show notes. Listeners, you know what's next. It is question of the week. Today's question is, Mike, What about when companies have core values that they don't actually live by? Well, let's dive right into this one because this one is incredibly common. I was just talking with a friend recently that said, hey, I was talking to our leadership and I said, look, this one core value you have in here, we clearly don't live by it because of some things that we do and practices we have in this business. Why don't you actually just take the core value out of our core values? And so, we were having this conversation. So, I was talking to another friend of mine who is the foremost expert in the world on accountability. And he said, yeah, Mike, because— and that's Sam Silverstein. So, if you want to look up Sam, Sam's an amazing genius, brilliant person. Sam was saying, yeah, Mike, because then the company are just liars. And that's a very powerful statement, but it's true. If you have a core value in your organization that you're not living by, Then you are failing to respect the values by which you say your organization is founded on. Therefore, you're lying that it's a core value. You'd be much more honest and way more respectful to just remove that core value from your list, have that one less core value, unless there's multiple core values you're not living by, but you need to remove them so your true core values are being respected and honored and lived by throughout We'd love to hear your questions, your thoughts, and your ideas. And the best place to leave those with us is on our Facebook page at facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast. Of course, you can always contact us on our website at mutuallyamazingpodcast.com. Remember to subscribe to this show so you automatically get it every week. And if you could take one moment to leave a review, that really helps other people find the show, which we are greatly appreciative of. So thank you so much for joining us. May you make today and every day a life full of mutually amazing relationships.