65: ”The Go-Giver” legendary author and influencer, Bob Burg, shares the power of influence...

Welcome to the Mutually Amazing Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz, with the Center for Respect. The episode you're about to listen to was recorded when this show used to be called the Respect Podcast. So, you might hear that mentioned during this episode. Well, let's get to the show. Today, we've got a legend with you, somebody who wrote a book that has impacted millions around the world. That is Bob Burg. He's the co-author with John David Mann of the Go-Giver book series. Many of you have read it. It's had such an impact around the world, translated in 28 languages with total sales of over 1 million copies. Thank you so much, Bob, for joining us.

Hey, thank you, Mike. Great to be with you.

Absolutely. We're thrilled to have you here. And the show's all about respect. So we're going to dive right into this. It seems like these days more than ever on social media, but practically everywhere, especially with regards to politics, Communication is breaking down and respect for others with differing opinions has sunk to a whole new place. What are your thoughts on that? How do we address that? How can we move forward?

Well, I think that's very true. And, you know, you think about political dialogue and political discourse, it's never been, um, necessarily polite, but it, but it was not as it is now. It used to be basically, I'm right, you're wrong, which, you know, again, isn't the best of worlds, but that's how it was. Now, instead of I'm right, you're wrong, it's I'm right, you're evil, and there's a significant difference there, because if you believe someone's wrong, you'll still engage with them, okay? If you believe someone is evil, you won't even engage. When I say engage, I mean actually dialogue with them, okay, and in a respectful way, and you won't do that, 'cause if someone's evil, well, why would you show them respect? So I think that's what it's come down to, and that's what you see, whether it's on, on Twitter or Facebook, or whether it's in person on talk shows, uh, what have you. So I think that is a, um, I think it's a very difficult situation we're in right now. It doesn't look like it's going away. Uh, it looks like it's getting worse. And so, you know, what do you say about that? You try to do your best as an individual to set an example, and if you have a big enough platform, you can And I see some people out there trying to get people to communicate with others in a respectful way, making it not ad hominem, but rather about the issues. But, you know, I'd say right now I'm not encouraged. That's not, that's not seeming to take hold right now.

Yeah, I find it interesting. I have a very close friend who we are politically opposites. You couldn't be more opposite. And some people are like, I don't get your friendship. I don't get how that is even able to survive and how it's so strong. And I'm always like, well, you're seeing one aspect of each of us. That's it. You're only seeing our political beliefs. You're not seeing how we both see each other as fathers or spouses or friends on a bike ride. You're not seeing that. And I think, wouldn't that add a big component to this where I could look at somebody and say, what aspect of their life do I respect? 'Cause it's right. It does come down to respect. Yeah. If I respect you as a human being, then I can just differ with your belief. And now you're not evil. The moment I believe you're evil, I can't respect evil, right? I mean, that doesn't work.

By the very nature of the definitions of all those terms, you're right, it doesn't. So yes, so the first thing I suggest with people, especially, and let's just look at it from an influence and persuasion viewpoint. If you really want to influence or persuade another human being, you better look at them as a well-intended person. If you don't, they're gonna get that, you know what I'm saying? If you don't respect them as a well-intended individual, they are gonna pick up on that and they're not going to be movable in any way. They're gonna be immutable, unchangeable. And so even for, you know, and I hate to say it this way, for selfish purposes, show respect and hopefully actually respect them. that person. And to do that, you need to, as you were implying, take that deeper look. So, okay, well, they're a whatever it is, Republican or Democrat or whatever it happens to be that I totally don't like. But what might I like about them? What might I like about them? Do they actually want to see good things happen for people? They just have a different way of approaching it than I do. Or getting outside of politics. Are they a good parent, a good spouse, a good friend, an ethical and honest business person? What is it? And see, I love how you said it. You know, what is it about them that I do respect, that I genuinely respect or can find about them to respect? And only at that point will engagement and dialogue ever take place.

Well, and you know, the Go-Giver book is set in such a beautiful place of giving, of seeing the positive in others. Throughout. So what if somebody's sitting here going, yeah, but what about the one who I do believe is evil? Like, I can't— I don't believe they're doing this for good intention. How do I move forward with that? Maybe it's a major leader that they see that way. Maybe it's a leader of the organization they work for. Maybe it's a political figure that is at a lot— at a high level in our government. How do you help that person who sees that individual that way?

Well, you know, let's— so let's take it on a few different levels. Let's say it's someone you, uh, you you work in their organization, okay? And you see this person as just a downright evil, nasty person. Well, now you have to ask yourself, should I be working within that organization? Okay, now, you can't always just leave though. You know, we've got responsibilities, right? Now, if you feel this person is a crook or this person is just taking advantage of the customers, well, you've gotta get away. I mean, if they're evil, And again, I'm not saying they are, but if that's really, despite you're doing your best to find something good in that person, you come to the conclusion that this person leading your company or whatever it has to be, your division, what have you, is an evil human being, you cannot in good conscience, obviously, work with that person if by you working there, it continues to hurt the end user. You know what I'm saying? I mean, there are certain people, there's always gonna be people you can still work with in a company if it has nothing to do with, or you can hopefully get a transfer to another team or division or what have you. But I go back to what you say. There's probably— so they're probably not evil. There's probably something within them that you can respect. Now, by the way, we live in a big world. There are evil people, you know, as far as I'm concerned. I say it doesn't mean I'm right, but I believe there are people who, you know, they may not be evil, but you can see evil from there, right? I mean, it's close enough. And some are really, truly evil people. Obviously, we don't want them in our lives, and to the degree we can avoid them, it's just best to do that. You're probably not gonna change an evil person. Okay, you can change a person, you can help change a person who maybe does things that are, are wrong or bad or counterproductive as you see them being that way, but pure evil, difficult to change.

Well, you brought up that, that idea of change, and you brought up influence, and it's a word that's often thrown around nowadays, influence. So what does it mean to you when you hear the word influence?

So influence, I believe, can be defined on a couple of different levels. On a very, very basic level, influence can be defined as the ability to move a person or persons to a desired action, usually within the context of a specific goal. Okay, by, by definition, that is influence. Now, that might be its definition, but Mike, I don't believe that's its essence. The essence of influence is pull. Pull as opposed to push, as in the old saying, how far can you push a rope? And we know the answer is not very far, at least not very fast or very effectively, which is why great leaders, great influencers don't push. You never hear people say, hey, that David or that Margaret, she is so influential, she has a lot of push with people, right? She sure is pushy. Well, we just love, right? No, they'd say she's influential, she has a lot of pull with people because that's the essence of influence. That's what influence is. It's pull. It's an attraction. Great influencers attract. people first to themselves and then their ideas. But you must really bring them to what I say, know, like, and trust you for that to happen. And the way we pull is we shift our focus. We, as we say, we move from an I focus or me focus to what we call an other focus. Focus, looking for ways to be of value to others. So the, the great influencer will question themselves. They'll ask themselves, you know, how does what I'm asking this other person to do, how does it align with their goals, with their wants, with their needs, with their desires? How does what I want this other person to do, how does it align with their Values. And when asking ourselves these questions thoughtfully, intelligently, genuinely, authentically, not as a way to manipulate another human being into doing our will— that's totally disrespectful— no, as a way of building everyone in the process. Now we've come a lot closer to earning that person's agreement and even commitment to an idea, as opposed to trying to depend on some type of, uh, manipulation.

Well, and I love that you brought up manipulation and you were saying that's the opposite. It can be disrespectful because I've had guests on before that say, look, manipulation is just a term, but it's, it's also a form of education. So how do you differentiate manipulation versus influence versus educating versus persuasion?

I would say that what we do first is we, we distinguish between manipulation and persuasion because both are types of influence. Remember, influence is simply moving a person to a desired action. Right? So a manipulator and a persuader are both looking to cause a person to take a particular action that they might not have done without that person's influence. Both manipulators and persuaders typically understand human nature. They understand what moves and motivates people. The difference is it begins with intent. One of the best explanations, or the best explanation I ever saw, was in a book written by Dr. Paul W. Swett. So it was published back in 1987. The title of the book was The Art of Talking So That People Will Listen, but it was really more about listening than it was about talking, as you can imagine. But that was the title. And, and here's what he said, and I'm paraphrasing just slightly, so please pardon me. He wrote, manipulation aims at control, not cooperation. It results in a win-lose situation. It does not consider the good of the other party. Persuader always seeks to enhance the self-esteem, and I would add the position, of the other party. People act then responsibly because they're treated as responsible, self-directing individuals. So yes, it begins with intent. A manipulator may not be trying to hurt the other person, but if that's what it takes to get their way, they will do so. With a persuader, it, it couldn't happen because in order for a persuader to feel good about themselves, they've gotta know that that other person feels good about it as well and actually does benefit from it.

Well, that walks right into a concept that you and your co-author John talk about, genuine influence. So how does that differ from traditional influence?

I would define genuine influence as the ability to get the results you want when dealing with others While making that other person feel genuinely good about themselves, about the situation, and about you, which means respect has got to be the very foundation of this.

And what are traps people can fall into while they're trying to do that, that gets them off track and more to that, that self-focus, right? So I say I'm doing it to help you, but suddenly I'm not. Where, you know, people can quickly fall into that, where this is benefiting me. So, what are things you watch out for to make sure you're not going off that track of helping this person feel better about themselves in the process?

Yeah. And it's not that it has to not help you. I mean, obviously, when we're persuading or influencing another person, we feel it's in everyone's best interest, theirs and ours. The key, though, is that the focus must be on it being in their best interest. You know what I'm saying? This is the same as in The Go-Giver. We say money. Is simply an echo of value, which means the key is that you focus on providing immense value to your customer. That's your focus. The money you receive is a natural result of the value you've provided, but the focus must be on the customer. And it's the same here when we talk about genuine influence. Yes, hopefully you will benefit, but the focus must be on the other person benefiting. And that's what's so key.

Yeah. And that focus makes such a huge difference of keeping us on track. Because it's when we get on the focus of the profit, that extra dollar, that we forget the human element here and who we're serving and who we're helping and what problem we're solving, right? Every company organization is in business because they solve someone's problem. Otherwise, there's nothing to buy. There's nothing. So, I think that's so important you bring that up. And in the book, you talk about the 5 secrets to genuine influence. What's number 1?

Well, that is to master your emotions. The sages asked, who is mighty? And answered, that person who can control their own emotions and make of an enemy or of a potential enemy a friend. And this is really where it all begins, because unless we're in— it's only when we're in control of our own emotions that we're even in a position to take a potentially negative situation or person and turn it into a win for everyone involved. We all know this, and yet how often do we, based on what the other person says or does, do we allow ourselves— do we make ourselves miserable or uptight or defensive or angry? And we say or do the very thing that is so counterproductive to attaining the results we want. We say, well, why do we do that? Well, because we're human beings. And as human beings, we are emotional creatures. We'd like to think we're logical, and to a certain extent we are, but we're pretty emotionally driven. We make major decisions based on emotion, and we back up those emotional decisions with logic, right? We rationalize, which simply means we tell ourselves rational lies. And so, you know, that's human. But so what we're not suggesting, okay, what John and I are not suggesting is that you deny your emotions or that you minimize your emotions. No, emotions are a great part of life. They bring us joy. They make life worthwhile.

No.

Just make sure you're the master of your emotions as opposed to your emotions being the master of you. Or as my great friend Don DiScumaci puts it, uh, take your emotions along for the ride, but make sure you are driving the car.

That's brilliant. And the next secret is stepping into the other person's shoes.

Yeah, which sounds easy, doesn't it? Until you realize that most of us have different size feet. So literally, we cannot step into another person's shoes. Figuratively, we cannot step into another person's mind because we're not them. And as human beings, we all see the world from our own basic vantage point, viewpoint, what I call belief system. And as human beings, we also tend to believe that other people see the world basically the same way we do, which is very intuitive. How could it be any different? It's all we know. But it's not true, right? People see the world from their own viewpoint. That's a good point. We don't know what this other person's thinking, and there's only one way to know, to step into their shoes, and that is to ask questions and then listen. And as one of the mentors in the story advises, don't listen with your ears, just with your ears. That's the surface listening most of us do. That's listening in order to speak. It's letting that person get in their 2 cents so that we can get in our 10 cents. Okay? Instead, listen with your eyes. Listen with your posture. Listen with the back of your neck. In other words, listen with your entire essence. And when you do that, 2 wonderful things happen. One is that you truly do understand. You've put yourself in their shoes. You've discovered what it is that person needs, wants, and desires. Which is what selling is all about. It's what influence is all about. But the second thing is, when you've done this, the other person feels heard. They feel listened to. They feel understood. And that is such a, a basic human need to feel understood by another human being. And their level of trust in you goes through the roof.

Yeah, it's the essence of respect to see someone for who they are. It's in— it's something you see people make the mistake all the time. They'll even say, Well, if I were in their shoes, I would have done this, which tells me you don't understand what's in their shoes because you're, you're living in your shoes as if you're living in theirs. And so it's very common. So I, I love the beauty of listening on an emotional, almost a spiritual connection level versus just words. It's so, so important.

Respect. Listening to another human being is really, in a sense, the ultimate respect, isn't it? It is.

It is. And you talk in the 3rd secret about setting the proper frame. So what does that mean? How do you do it?

Yeah, well, setting a frame is so important, setting the correct frame or resetting another person's negatively set frame, that if you do this correctly, you're about 90% of the way to, to attaining satisfaction. A frame, Mike, can be defined as the, the foundation from which everything else evolves. Can I share an example of my favorite frame story ever?

Absolutely.

This happened several years ago, and I've told this story so many times, and I learn from it every time I tell it. And I was in a Dunkin' Donuts restaurant, and there was a little boy, a little toddler, probably a year and a half, 2 years, 2 and a half years old, and he's running around the restaurant. When his parents call him over to their table. So he starts to head over and he suddenly takes a spill on the floor. He falls. Now, he didn't hurt himself. You could tell, but you could also tell he was shocked. He was surprised. This was not within his realm of experience. So the first thing he did was, of course, he looked at the 2 people in his life he trusts the most, his mom and dad, to find out their interpretation. Of the event. So what happened happened. He wanted to kind of know what's next. Is this a good thing, a bad thing? You know, and I really believe that had his parents gotten upset and panicky and, you know, oh no, my poor baby, are you okay? He'd have started to cry. But what they did, they handled it so beautifully. They, they walked over quickly, of course, but very calmly. They had just a wonderful calm demeanor about them. They, uh, smiled. And they applauded and they laughed and they said, oh, how fun. What a good trick that was. And immediately the little boy began to laugh. What the parents did is they set a productive frame from which he could operate. And that's so important.

Yes. So it's like with a baby, right? When they fall nowadays, you know, you're not like, oh no. You'd be like, good fall. That was a good one. Now let's try it again. Right? You make it a positive frame. It makes such a huge difference in people's lives. And, and talking about people's lives and our impact, your dad has a wonderful definition of tact.

You know, we say communicate with tact and empathy. My dad has always defined tact as the language of strength. And I've always enjoyed that definition because to me, it does take a powerful, a mighty person to be tactful. To not just click the send button, you know, on an email or a social media tweet or post, right? Because you don't like what the person said, or to snap back at someone, or to approach someone that you need to correct or critique or what have you, but first think how that person is going to feel about that and how you can say it in a way. See, tack really, in a sense, it's communicating an idea to someone that they— normally would not necessarily be happy about, but doing so in such a way that not only are they not defensive toward you and resistant to your idea, but they are open to you and open to your idea. And, you know, my dad, who I got to watch, you know, all my life, always just approached, it didn't matter who that person was or the situation, it was always with such respect And such empathy and tact in everything he did, and everyone loved him. You know, they still do to this day. And so, you know, a great example. But really, when we can, when we can approach others that way, it's the ultimate in respect. And, you know, it's something that comes right back to us.

Yeah. And one of the areas that can be tough for some people to do is when we think we're right and having tact in those moments. You say that not only is it a way of communicating respect, but actually makes one more influential. not less, is letting go of having to be right.

Yeah.

And so how do people do that? 'Cause people get so caught in, but I'm right.

Exactly. And, you know, we're human beings. We wanna be right. Why wouldn't we? And when we say let go of having to be right, really what we're saying is let go of the attachment to having to be right. And when we can do this, what happens is, and the reason why we're more influential, is because we can, when we consider, when we can consider others ideas, which doesn't mean we have to agree with them. Okay. But when we can open our mind to consider ideas, other ideas, and to say, hey, maybe we don't know everything about this, maybe there are some things we don't know. A couple of things happen. One is we go into learner's mode, and because of that, we open ourselves up to new knowledge that we can carefully consider. This as opposed to the person. And we see this so often, especially in politics, where My mind's already made up, don't confuse me with the facts, right? And so the person who can open their mind, you know, which doesn't mean it's so open your brains fall out, but it means it's open enough to be able to consider alternatives and consider other ideas, that person can learn and grow. The person who is totally closed and cannot accept just not being 100% right, they can't know anything more than they already know, and we find with those, Typically, what they think they know isn't necessarily always true. But also, when you do that, the person, when you open your mind like that, when you let go of the attachment to having to be right, the person you're dealing with can sense that. They know they're dealing with someone who's seeking truth, not someone who's looking just to be right, or looking to be right at my expense, right? So they're much more likely to lose their defensiveness and be more amenable to your idea. So yes, it actually, Makes you more influential, not less.

And for the last question, I'm gonna go in a different direction here, but really aligns with the Go-Giver book because some people can think, oh, I'm gonna be a go-giver. And they're just giving and giving and saying yes to everything and losing themselves, losing their self, uh, value of taking care of their spiritual, their physical. So what, in this world where everybody feels like they have to say yes to everything, there's so much going on. How do you say no to requests? In a way that is kind, right? We go back to that tact and effective and respectful. So you don't feel that guilt afterwards also that happens of, oh no, I've said no, but at the same time also feel you handled it well.

Right. And you know, you ask a great question because one thing I always like to make sure people understand about the Go-Giver, especially before they've read the book and they, and they know there's more to it than just give, right? You know, because remember there's also the law of receptivity, but there's There's nothing about being a go-giver that is congruent with being a doormat or a martyr or self-sacrificial in any way. Absolutely not. It simply means your focus is on bringing immense value to others. Now, can we always say yes to people? No way that we can. There, there certainly, there simply isn't enough time or energy or resources or whatever to be able to say yes to everyone, even though we'd probably like to, because as human beings, we like to be able to please others. But no, obviously we can't. But a go-giver will say no in such a way that the other person feels valued, honored, and respected. Can I give you a quick example?

That'd be awesome.

Because, you know, people say— I've heard people say no is a complete sentence. Well, I disagree with that. To me, that's pretty disrespectful. Someone asks you to do something. Again, let's say it's something that's a compliment that they've asked. They want you to serve on a committee, let's say. And are you really just going to say No, I mean, you know, that's just not polite. It's not nice, and it's incongruent with the one— with hopefully every listener's value system of showing respect to another person. Now, people often say, well, then just, you know, tell them you don't have time. The problem with that is a couple-fold. One, it's not that you don't have time, it's that you don't have the desire to do the thing, right? You value not doing it more than you value doing it. And if you say, Well, I would, but I don't have time. First, you know, you're kind of fibbing to yourself. It doesn't feel good. But remember, that other person is used to that. So when they say— when they communicate in such a way that it's obvious time would not be an issue, or they even say, well, that's okay, we're doing this again in 3 months, well, now you've put yourself in a position where fibbing comes back to really haunt you, right? So no. Instead, let's say no in a way that, that honors and respects others as well as your boundaries. Someone, again, they ask you to be on a committee. Simply say, thank you so much for asking. While it's not something I'd like to do, please know how honored I am just to be asked. Okay? And you can use some, you know, a little bit variant language, but here's the key, okay? You did not make an excuse. You did not give them something to hang their hat on. You basically said, Thank you so much for asking. Or you could just say, thank you so much. And then while it's— which you've honored them, you've thanked them, then you say, while it's not something I'd like to do, okay, you basically said it's not something you choose to do, not something I'd like to do, please know how honored I am to be asked, or just to be asked, or just that you would think of me. Okay, either way, what you've done is you've honored that person totally. You've respected and honored them while very gently letting them know it's not something that you're gonna do, and you don't feel the need to come up with a reason why. Now, by the way, There are some things that sure, you explain why not, because it's proper and it's so, but by and large, with something like this, resist the urge to give a reason why and just very gently just say no. Or not just say no, but say no this way.

Yeah, well, what's beautiful about it is this idea, I'm honored you asked.

Yeah.

So right away you take away the negative, which is just great.

Exactly, exactly.

Yeah, it's perfect. I wanna make sure everybody can get ahold of you, Bob, 'cause you're so brilliant, you give so much, which is appropriate with the book, The Go-Giver. They can go to thegogiver.com. They can also go to burg.com, B-U-R-G dot com, burg.com. And we're going to have all your social media links on the show notes for everybody to listen. Thank you so much, Bob, for giving today to all of us.

Oh, thank you so much, Mike. Appreciate you having me.

Absolutely. And for our listeners, you know what is coming up next. That is the question of the week. Today's question came from my trainer. I work with a trainer to help me take care of my body, my wellness, especially with as much as I'm on the road and travel. And we were talking today while working out about Why don't people know how to disagree or argue in relationships in a healthy manner? And I shared a lesson that I learned many years ago at this 3-day workshop I went to by the Landmark Forum and Landmark Education. And the statement was something that I've never forgotten. I think it's so powerful. I want to share with everybody. And that is when we are hurt or when we are angry and we feel this is coming from a statement someone made to us, Instead of saying, you hurt, you intentionally hurt me, or you hate me, or you don't love me, pause and say, the story I'm telling myself, is it because when you said this phrase, and then you say whatever the statement was that hurt you, when you made that statement, the story I told myself was you don't love me, or you don't like me. And so, I want us to be able to talk about that. Because that's how I'm feeling because that's the story I'm telling myself. Now, what's beautiful about that's the story I'm telling myself is that it's based in truth. I don't know that you meant to do that. I don't know that that was the outcome you were driving for, but I do know that that's the story in my mind and my emotions right now. So, I have to own that's the story I'm telling myself. It also puts it off of you and puts it on maybe I've got the wrong story. Right now you can clarify and go, nope, that's right. And my story will then be in alignment. Or you could say, no, not at all. Oh my gosh, that's not what I meant to have happen. And we can solve the problem. We can cure the wound here. We can help it be whole again by fixing that. And so that's a powerful statement, simply saying the story I'm telling myself is. Hope you found that helpful. We'd love to hear your questions, your thoughts, and your ideas. And the best place to leave those with us is on our Facebook page at facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast. Of course, you can always contact us on our website at mutuallyamazingpodcast.com. Remember to subscribe to this show so you automatically get it every week. And if you could take one moment to leave a review, that really helps other people find the show. Which we are greatly appreciative of. So thank you so much for joining us. May you make today and every day a life full of mutually amazing relationships.