72: Are you aware of the ways domestic violence can occur that many people don’t consider?...

Welcome to the Mutually Amazing Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz, with the Center for Respect. The episode you're about to listen to was recorded when this show used to be called the Respect Podcast, so you might hear that mentioned during this episode. Well, let's get to the show. This week we have Kinza Khan with us, domestic violence attorney at a legal services nonprofit organization in Chicago. Thank you, Kenza, for joining us.

Of course. Thanks for having me.

Absolutely. How did you get into this work, or what got you into this work?

That's a good question. So when I was in law school, I knew that I wanted to help with giving a voice to marginalized communities. And I realized that the marginalized communities were often immigrants, women, many minorities really, and then victims of crimes and victims of violence were often silenced and marginalized. lives. And it was an issue in our communities, in all the different communities I've worked with. So I started with volunteering in law school at a domestic violence legal clinic, helping people at the courthouse. I was very shocked to see, because I was born and raised in Chicago, but I did not realize how this side of Chicago, or this part of the culture that was around me at all times. And then after law school, my first job was in Abused and neglected children, working with the foster care system and child welfare court. And then after that, um, kind of transitioned into domestic violence with, um, families. So like domestic violence in all forms. And then now I'm doing domestic violence and family law.

The journey makes sense, right? It all took each step one at a time, flew from the step before. And a lot of times when people talk about domestic violence, they have assumptions that it's specific cultures, specific demographics. Is that true?

No, it's not. And I— it's interesting because I had my own assumptions too, and working in this field helped kind of— helped me kind of become more aware and stomp those assumptions. I have noticed that in different communities it shows up in different ways. So like there are certain violence, domestic violence tactics that abusers will use when we're in an immigrant community because immigration status is one of the ways that they can threaten someone to stay with them, for example, things like that. So it will have different forms, but it's not more likely to happen in one community over another.

So I'm just going to back up a little bit there for our listeners. You're referring to the abuser abusing somebody who's an immigrant and saying, if you say anything, you know, I'll have you sent back to your country, or I'll tell the authorities and they'll send you back.

Yes, that's one example. I mean, there's many, but holding their green card, or the person who is an immigrant, for example, not having English, not having the language ability to communicate with authorities, or to not having the, you know, even sometimes even not having access to their own green card and documents because the abuser has kept them, which is coercing someone into a relationship or keeping someone from leaving. Um, and so that intimidation, those threats will often be a form of abuse, um, will be used to abuse. So, I mean, that's one example, but each— so I've noticed that different communities and different cultures have different ways of abusing because people will use what they can to exert power and control. But it's not, um, but yeah, like certain communities are not immune from domestic violence. Unfortunately, it's a universal problem.

Yeah. A lot of times I've met people who said, well, we, You know, we're— I'll give you an example of this one that actually I heard. Somebody's like, you know, I come from a wealthy, white, upper suburbia community. That doesn't happen here. And I literally knew somebody in that community that nobody would have ever thought was a survivor of domestic violence that absolutely was. And due to the person's job, they thought, well, that's a high-powered person. There's no way they're A survivor—that was another myth they had, right? That survivors are weak, quiet people, right? And so they had that myth also. This can't be this strong, opinionated woman, professional woman. That's not a survivor. There's no way—not in this community. So what? Let's let's back up to help all our listeners. What is domestic violence? Like what qualifies? Because a lot of people think when they hear domestic violence and a little trigger warning here, but they assume. You know, that's somebody slapping somebody, hitting someone, pushing someone, which absolutely can be forms of. But what qualifies as domestic violence?

Um, that's a really great question. And you're right. Um, oftentimes people, you know, I've even had, um, clients come in and they're like, and I, when I ask, is there any domestic violence? They're like, no, no, he doesn't hit me. And I'm like, okay, well let's talk about the other things. Like what else does he do? What names does he call you? And then by the end of that same conversation, you know, I have to be the, The person who delivers the unfortunate news, like, no, this qualifies as domestic violence, at least under the Illinois Domestic Violence Act. And so, okay, so I'll talk about what that is. So domestic violence can be physical, but it's not limited to physical. It can also be verbal, emotional, psychological, financial. These are all forms of abuse. So there's, for example, verbal abuse is constantly putting someone down. So constantly either, like, cussing at someone or swearing, calling them names. and threats. Threats are also verb— qualifies as verbal abuse. Even accusations. I see a lot of cases in which there's accusations of cheating or accusations of just things that are not, you know, not true, untrue accusations. A repeated pattern of any of this qualifies as domestic violence. And so that's verbal. There's psychological as well. We've lately been hearing the term gaslighting more. And gaslighting is one of the forms of psychological abuse. Um, which qualifies as domestic violence.

Kinza, can we explain what that is? A lot of times people hear the term, but they don't really understand it. They're hearing it politically. And so they don't really understand what it may even mean politically, but they definitely don't understand what it means in the home.

Yeah, that's a good question. So gaslighting came from a movie that was placed in Chicago, um, called Gaslight. And it's, it's back from the '80s or something. The movie's kind of old. Um, and so it comes from that movie and basically the term means to manipulate someone, um, By getting them to question their own sanity. And so, it is someone— if someone says like, you know, oh, you are crazy, that is all in your head, or like, that never happened, you are making things up. And in the movie, there was something to do with lights. Like the guy was, I think he was like dimming the lights consistently, but she— and then she would notice, like she was like, ew, does it look different? And he is like, no, it looks the same. Because that is back in the day when they had— They were using gas lights, and so before all the electricity that we have today. And so she was like, you know, it looks different. And he was like, no, no, you're just going crazy. And so the term is, it's a form of psychological manipulation, and it's making someone else question their own sanity, their own perception, their own memory. And so saying, you made that up, that never happened, or when it did, or saying, you know, that's all in your head, or That is not even true. Like, you are crazy, or you are losing your mind. And then, I mean, once it is a repeated statement, it starts becoming internalized by the receiver of the statement. And so, that is gaslighting. Someone can, you know, start questioning their own sanity. They can start questioning their own memory. I mean, even the act of doing that to someone else, trying to get someone else to question their own memory, is also gaslighting. And there are different There are different definitions depending on how someone wants to, like how broad or narrow someone wants to define this. But gaslighting and psychological abuse also include things like pushing someone, manipulating someone. So pushing someone to the point where they, like for example, giving silent treatment for a long time, and then pushing someone to the point where they cannot, where they kind of blow up. They kind of lose their mind and they're like, you know, you kind of push them and provoke them and got under their skin. Because you know how. And then the person blew up, and then you are like, wow, look, you are the crazy one. You are the one who blew up. And making them believe like you are the crazy one because you are the one who lost your mind or lost your control. But really, like, the first person was the one who pushed them to that point, knowing that that would get under their skin, knowing that that was provoking to them. So it is also a form of psychological abuse. But these are more— they are less obvious, which is dangerous because they are more hidden and people do not often know what is happening to them until after the fact. It is easier to see, oh my gosh, this happened, in retrospect. It's harder to see when we're in it, in the situation ourselves, or before it happens to see the warning signs.

And so what are— let's go right into that. What are red flags people should be watching for? And maybe not even— there's 2 ways here. One, in your own relationship. 2, in those around you, right, who may be— may not— I don't want to say hiding because it sounds intentional and hard, you know, like they're doing something wrong, but, uh, may not There may not be an obvious way of knowing it. And I think there's maybe even a question, is it possible there are people, and you wouldn't— that's why I'm curious how you answer this, uh, who engage in this behavior, abusive behavior, who are unaware of it, which does not excuse it, but if they were aware of it, would stop? Is there any signs that that shows true, or is it more, hey, we need to help survivors recognize the red flags and the people who have survivors in their lives?

Yeah, that's a great question because it— I mean, I agree with you. So it does go— it is a multidimensional thing. And so in terms of abusers not recognizing their own behavior, yes, I do believe that many abusers, many people who abuse, are not aware because oftentimes, you know, the second that they get hit with an accusation of, you know, being an abuser, or the second that in court they're called, you know, a perpetrator of domestic violence, or that they see that their victim is now seeking a domestic violence case or domestic violence attorney, then they do oftentimes, like, lose it. You know, they get very— they feel like they're being attacked. They feel like it's an unfair accusation. They feel like they don't qualify. They're like, I'm not that guy. I'm not that person. My actions were justified. And so I do see that a lot, actually. And I think oftentimes the person who is abusing has been the victim. Not— I don't want to say always, because it's not always true, but often, oftentimes. And I can't even say most of the time or less than 50%. I can't even put a number like that on it. But oftentimes the person who is abusing has been abused in the past. And it's a cycle. And that's why it's really important for intervention to take place. So— If someone has been abused, if they seek counseling or therapy, or there are programs as well for this specific purpose, that can help break the cycle of abuse. But abuse is often a cycle. And then in terms of the red flags to watch out for, the warning signs to watch out for, so you mentioned like a 2-tier. So, one, if it's happening to you, and 2, if it's happening to someone around you. So, if it's happening to someone around you, this one's the easier one to answer, so I'll do that one first. So if it's happening to someone around you, there are, there are ways to notice that. And so one is if the person seems like they don't have as much agency over it all. So domestic violence is all about power and control, and it's not about sex or money or the other issues that people often disguise it to be. It's about power and control. So if, so say if a friend of mine was in a violent relationship, or in, you know, was in a relationship that could qualify as domestic abuse, then she— I would note, I would notice for signs of her being— losing agency over her own life. So if she, you know, if she and I normally text, send text messages and talk on the phone and plan to meet up, and we can meet up alone wherever we want, like, you know, as a friend, then And if all of a sudden that has stopped, then that's something that I should be aware of, like what's going on. If she doesn't seem to have access to her phone, her messages, if she has to be careful about talking to me in front of the person she's with, then that also can be a sign. And one of these things in and of themselves may not be a sign enough to conclude that there's definitely domestic violence going on. So I don't want to say like either of these is an automatic red flag and jump to a conclusion, but— The more of the signs that are present, then the more wary one should become, and the more careful one should become about what is going on. So losing agency over their own lives, not being able to come out as much, a lot of power. So any control dynamics, if a friend of mine is being controlled, if I feel like she is not allowed to wear what she normally wears, or what she wants to wear, if she has to do things only to please This person and has lost agency over her own choice of clothes, choice of timing, choice of a hobby or whatever we do, choice of plans. So things like that. That's how I would notice it in someone else around me, is a disruption in their pattern of how they are, how they were normally. And then, and oftentimes an abuser can also prevent someone from talking to their friends. So isolation is a huge control tactic. Very, very common. So isolation is a big warning sign as well. Isolating the person from their friends, from their family, from access to law enforcement, access to their phone, access to coworkers. I've had— I've seen a lot of cases in which the person doesn't let them work. And a lot of it is because the threat of that person being around other people at work and disclosing what's going on with them, you know, might get them— might Right. Get the abused person, so it might get the victim.

Right, it might expose the abuser, right.

Exactly. So that's a common one. So isolation is a huge one. And then in terms of red flags, warning signs when it's happening to ourselves. So I always joke that it's like easier to see when something's happening with someone else versus ourselves. We're better at, you know, we're better at noticing like things in other people than we are in ourselves. And so, and I do believe that's true, and including in relationships. So, I think some of the warning signs is, one big one, especially for young adolescents and young adults, and even younger teenagers, is when someone is being overprotective. So, in the beginning, you know, someone will be a little protective, and I'm speaking from a female's perspective, but it can happen either way.

Mm-hmm.

In any kind of relationship. It doesn't have to even be just a significant other romantic relationship. But if someone's being protective and is, you know, kind of— at first, people often like this. People are like, oh, that's very nice. He doesn't want me, or she doesn't want me to talk to other people because they want me all to themselves. But there's a very fine line between when that protectiveness turns into abuse or abusive controlling behavior. And people are often not aware of this line. And so I think One way to recognize if it's happening with, with us is see, is this person trying to control what I'm doing? Are they keeping tabs on where I am at all times? Are they making me share my location with them on my phone? Are they— when I say no to doing any of this, whether it's sharing my location or revealing everything to them, how do they react and how do they respond? And is it a continuing issue? The other thing is, Blaming the victim. So blaming me for everything. So like oftentimes someone will blame— so say, say there's a boyfriend, for example, who's telling the girlfriend to share her location at all times, and she doesn't want to, so she says no. And then later he will use that, like the fact that she said no, to blame her. Like he'll say, well, I had to come to your house to check in on you because you wouldn't share your location, for example. So blaming her for everything.

Mm-hmm.

is often a sign. So these are all subtle, and again, in aggregation, they become more of a sign of possibly being, you know, violent later. Any power and control dynamics that are visible are good to keep tabs on early on, because those only escalate as the relationship grows deeper. Because people who manipulate and who are abusers, or who do engage in domestic, you know, who do—

Abuse.

Engage in domestic violence in their relationships against a victim, they're, they're very manipulative and they're smart. They're not obvious at first at all, because first they have to earn the trust of their person. Otherwise, the relationships wouldn't last that long. And so it's not like every victim of domestic violence knew it was coming. She didn't, you know, or recognized it right away or anything like that. It's very calculated. It's very manipulative. It's very— It's very smooth the way they, they do it, unfortunately.

Yeah, we explain that to people. You know, if it, if it was blatantly obvious, you would have never gone on a date with this human being. You would have never gone past first date for sure. So it is very subtle. So when somebody does recognize it, and 2 things here, they come forward to you, a friend or coworker, what can you do? Or 2, what, where can they go? What are their options for getting support and help?

So what I would reckon— what I would recommend is if someone comes to me with this, then I would make them aware of all their options, and I would let them know that I'm supporting them. And the reason is because it takes an average woman in America— yeah, the statistics recently have been that it takes an average woman who is the victim of abuse in America 7 times to leave, which means she's attempted or tried to leave the relationship 7 times and gone back, and on the 7th time she's successful. That's the average. Now, it could be more, it could be less, of course. Um, but that is terrifying, but it's very understandable as well because, um, the psychological abuse and the emotional abuse that happens in these relationships have an everlasting impact, and they make it very difficult for the person to leave.

Yeah, I say this all the time when people say, what was she thinking? And I go, how could she? And it's all she, she. And I go, Wait a second, why don't you pause and say, how much damage has this abuser done that this person feels the need to come back? That's the question, not how come she can't. It's how much abuse has the abuser done that is so important there.

Exactly, exactly. Because one way, um, is to— one effect of emotional abuse, for example, is to have the victim's self-confidence completely shattered and have them ruin their sense of self and their self-esteem so that they actually start to believe that they do not deserve any better, that this is the best it is going to get, this is fine, you know. And it is always a cycle. The abusers are abusive, for example, so it might be once a week, it might be once a month, but it is a cycle. So after that, there is a period where they apologize and they are nice and things are better. And then there is hope and they are telling the person, I am, you know, I am going to change. I am going to get better. I am going to— do what I need to do to change, you know. And then it repeats itself multiple, multiple times. And so, there's always this false sense of hope that they give the victim in order to stay. And so, that's part of the psychological abuse as well, which is why these victims often stay. No matter how smart— I've seen people who I'm, you know, I've seen clients who are very, very intelligent, very intelligent. I've seen some who are, you know, they're high professionals. They're— They're very well-educated, and they are equally susceptible to this, which makes it scary. And it's interesting because some of the tactics that the abusers use in— for their victims to stay are the same tactics that people like cults will use often to get people into these like religious cults or fundamentalist, crazy, you know, racist cults or whatever there are. So these will—

Right. Brainstorming methods. I mean, brainstorming. Sorry, brainwashing.

Yes. Yeah, it's a lot of brainwashing. It's a lot of— and it's similar methods because humans, you know, we, we all operate similarly in terms of our brains, our fears, insecurities, vulnerabilities. So these are the things that— and many abusers are very smart. They, they get to know what someone's vulnerabilities and, you know, insecurities are. They tap right into that and They know what the person wants to hear. They give them what they want to hear. They lure them in in a certain way. So it's very similar to how someone would recruit someone for, for a cult and brainwash them. You know, it's very similar tactics.

And so where does someone go?

Um, there are different, depending on what the abuse is, I recommend, um, I always recommend mental health counseling. Um, so seeing a psychologist. Because that can help with being able to start processing and sorting out that what is happening to me. Because that's the hardest step. The hardest step, in my opinion, seeing all my clients and seeing all these cases, is recognizing that what you're going through is abuse. Because once someone recognizes that, they start to separate themselves from the relationship. They start seeing that, okay, I can leave this relationship. I can take back control of my life. I can leave this person. And I'm not the one who's all at fault. I'm not the one who's, who's, you know, who's to blame. I'm, I'm, I don't deserve this. I can leave. Once that person starts reclaiming their sense of self and their agency, and that can be done very well through psychology, I believe, and through therapy, then they can start taking the other steps that they need to leave that relationship. Depending on what they— there's a lot of community organizations and shelters And the shelters will have referrals. So even if someone doesn't want to go stay in the shelter, say that, you know, I can go stay with a friend or my sister or my mom in the meantime while we're separated. If they— given that we were living together, assuming that we were living together. Say I can live with a family member or a friend in the meantime while we're separated. I can still call a shelter even if I don't want to sit there or stay there just to get referrals to other organizations. So, getting referrals to safety caseworkers, shelters and community organizations have caseworkers that can help with safety planning. They can help refer to lawyers, to therapists, to advocates for courts. And that really helps a lot just to have a team and have some people on your side and understand what you're going through. They've seen it before. You know, it's— they're not going to judge you or, you know, there's no reason to be embarrassed. And so that's, that's one example. There's obviously the police, but I'm wary to say that because police will respond in different ways. And sometimes, say that, you know, say that some— a victim reports a domestic battery, say that she got hit by the abuser, and she reports that to the police, and the police don't arrest him, or that they do arrest him, but he's released 2 days later. I mean, sometimes there's a risk of that getting worse. And so of the anger and of the abuse getting worse after that. So I'm reluctant to say to go to the police. I do believe that in order to do some immediate damage control, it can be helpful. And if my client got, you know, a domestic battery, I would say that the first step is police. But I would want a plan after that to follow through, a safety plan in place, or reaching out after the police to reach out to an attorney to get an order of protection, or to reach out to a caseworker at an agency to get some safety planning in place, or to move out of that residence. That person can't come back to To you afterwards. I would want that to be in place.

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you're giving so much great resources. Clearly this is a very high traumatic working environment, right? But you're dealing with a lot of survivors who are maybe struggling to get out still. So for you, how does somebody in your line of work, how do you maintain self-care and that work-life balance?

So for me, I work out a lot. I run outside, especially when the weather's nice in Chicago. We finally got good weather. So we're excited about that.

I'm just up the road. I'm down the road from you, so I know exactly what you're referring to.

Oh, it's so beautiful out. Yeah. And so, and so I work out a lot. I always engage in something creative. So I had, I've taken improv classes, um, something that's totally mentally different. Um, I've engaged, I've learned photography a little bit. So sometimes I'll take my camera and I only work, um, 9 to 5 or 8:30 to 5:30 or yeah. So within like 40 to 50 hours a week.

I love that you said only 40, 50 hours a week, but in your line of work, people can be working 70 or 80. So, uh, it's a good point. Yeah.

Yeah. Lawyers work, work more than that often.

You've given a lot of great resources here. It's awesome. We're going to make sure in our show notes, your LinkedIn is on there. So if people want to reach out to you and the information you gave us for contacting you. So this has been fantastic. So much good information. So thank you, Kinza.

Great. Thank you so much.

Absolutely. And for our listeners, you know what's next. That is question of the week. And this week's question is, Mike, are relationships meant to last forever? This is such a deeper question than a lot of people may read into it. And what I mean by that is all relationships can last forever. What I mean is they stay with you forever. Therefore, they're part of who you are. Now, does that mean that you're in that relationship committed to that person forever? That's a different question. And I think it depends on the kind of relationship. Not all friendships are meant to last forever. Not all love relationships are meant to last forever. The question is, are you in a relationship that's meant to last forever? And that's when you have to think about, you have to contemplate for yourself. There's no blanket answer to, are all relationships meant to last forever? Because Well, actually, there is to that one. It's no, they're not all— relationships are not meant to last forever. Because, you know, the old saying, some people come into your life for a season, some for a reason, some for a lifetime. That kind of a cliché has some truth in it. So, the fact is you have to decide what relationships in my life are meant to last forever right now. What are the ones I want to treasure and value? And I want to make sure that I continue to nourish So they can last forever. And if I find out at one time they're not meant to last forever, to know that's okay. Not all relationships are. So thank you for asking, are relationships meant to last forever? We'd love to hear your questions, your thoughts, and your ideas. And the best place to leave those with us is on our Facebook page at facebook.com/mutuallyamazingpodcast. Of course, you can always contact us on our website at mutuallyamazingpodcast.com. Remember to subscribe to this show so you automatically get it every week. And if you could take one moment to leave a review, that really helps other people find the show, which we are greatly appreciative of. So thank you so much for joining us. May you make today and every day a life full of mutually amazing relationships.